| --- Log opened Wed Feb 08 00:00:37 2017 |
| 00:09 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 00:11 | < LadyOfLight> | <amalloy> other interesting options include: (interleave xs xs), (mapcat #(repeat 2 %) xs) |
| 00:11 | < LadyOfLight> | <clojurebot> Cool story bro. |
| 00:11 | < LadyOfLight> | <amalloy> clojurebot: i hope you die |
| 00:11 | < LadyOfLight> | xD |
| 00:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | clojurebot is kind of an asshole |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | what |
| 00:12 | < LadyOfLight> | <justin_smith> clojurebot: your purpose is to pass the butter |
| 00:12 | < LadyOfLight> | <clojurebot> Roger. |
| 00:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: clojurebot (in #clojure on freenode) has a bunch of useful features like evaluating forms, but also has a bunch of "conversational" triggers |
| 00:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which are inevitably annoying non sequiturs |
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| 10:24 | | * TheWatcher args at date formats |
| 10:24 | <@TheWatcher> | THIS SHIT IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE |
| 10:24 | <@TheWatcher> | Why do people fuck it up so frequently?! |
| 10:24 | <@Pi> | ISO or bust. |
| 10:30 | <@abudhabi> | TheWatcher: It's not rocket science, indeed. It's archaeology. |
| 10:30 | <@abudhabi> | Date and time is among the oldest systems still used, and has millennia of accumulated cruft. |
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| 11:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | abudhabi: which is fine if you're processing historical data, but people who are writing dates now have no excuse~ |
| 11:19 | <@abudhabi> | ToxicFrog: They have some excuse in that the system we use is anything but intuitive and standardized. |
| 11:20 | <@TheWatcher> | No, no they don't. ISO8601 is a thing that exists, is clear, unambiguous, precisely specified, and really straightforward to generate and parse |
| 11:20 | <@abudhabi> | And there's a billion competing standards. |
| 11:20 | <@abudhabi> | I'm not saying ISO isn't good/best. |
| 11:21 | <@abudhabi> | I'm saying it's not the only thing in town. |
| 11:26 | | AverageJoe [evil1@Nightstar-lc3.hbj.189.210.IP] has joined #code |
| 11:28 | < LadyOfLight`> | Meh |
| 11:29 | < LadyOfLight`> | Why do people argue that women are inherently worse programmers from a biological perspective? Makes me want to end them. |
| 11:29 | | LadyOfLight` is now known as LadyOfLight |
| 11:30 | < AverageJoe> | i've met maybe 1 female coder in my life |
| 11:31 | <@abudhabi> | Because they might have some grounds to say it? I dunno. |
| 11:31 | < AverageJoe> | and she was a BAMF |
| 11:31 | < AverageJoe> | she wrote drivers and firmware |
| 11:33 | < LadyOfLight> | BAMF? |
| 11:33 | < LadyOfLight> | Also, send help, I've started defaulting to && for constructor parameters in C++ to indicate ownership |
| 11:33 | < LadyOfLight> | I'm just becoming a stealth Rust programmer |
| 11:35 | < LadyOfLight> | abudhabi: except that it's demonstrably not true, and just serves to make the environment more toxic for us |
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| 11:36 | <@abudhabi> | LadyOfLight: Then submit your evidence against the view to them, instead of stewing in genocidal thoughts. |
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| 11:37 | <@TheWatcher> | You have entirely too much faith in misogynist idiots |
| 11:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | LadyOfLight: BAMF == Bad Ass Motherfucker |
| 11:38 | <@abudhabi> | You're assuming said persons are misogynists, as opposed to someone who, I dunno, read some studies contradicting LadyOfLight's own views. Or just saw how few female programmers there and assumed it's a matter of biology. |
| 11:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which is, you know, entirely expected given that in most technical contexts women have to be demonstrably *better* than the men in the room just to get a place at the table. |
| 11:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | (kind of like how most trans adults are "so strong!" and "such a survivor!" -- well, yeah, the ones who aren't died.) |
| 11:39 | < LadyOfLight> | It's tiring |
| 11:39 | < LadyOfLight> | You try having to prove yourself to everyone you meet |
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| 11:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | (the female programmers who aren't badass got sick of having to fight tooth and nail for even the tiniest amounts of recognition or advancement and went into less stressful fields.) |
| 11:40 | <@abudhabi> | Welcome to the world. |
| 11:40 | <@Pi> | ToxicFrog: <3 |
| 11:41 | < LadyOfLight> | ... |
| 11:42 | <@Pi> | All of that. There's a survivorship bias to women in tech / STEM, because they have to be unusually tough and determined just to break even and survive in the field. |
| 11:43 | | mode/#code [+oo sshine LadyOfLight] by Tamber |
| 11:43 | <@abudhabi> | Isn't the same true of men? I mean, maybe 10-20% of my year survived to make master. |
| 11:44 | <@Pi> | abudhabi: No; the systemic bias against women is pretty well-documented. |
| 11:44 | <@abudhabi> | Moste men *and* women failed to make the cut. |
| 11:44 | <@TheWatcher> | ... you really have no clue, do you. |
| 11:44 | <@Pi> | abudhabi: The cut cuts a lot harder against women. |
| 11:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | abudhabi: you are either deliberately trolling or have no idea what you're talking about; furthermore, it's not the job of anyone in this channel to educate you on WTF*1000 Basic Introduction To Feminism In The Workplace. |
| 11:45 | <@Pi> | abudhabi: Misogyny and hostility against women is pretty rampant in most or all STEM fields. |
| 11:46 | <@abudhabi> | So I keep getting told, but don't actually see that happening anyplace. |
| 11:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | In either case, responding to "wow I am sick of all this bullshit" with "have you considered maybe it's not bullshit and women are Just Worse" is -- and I am being extremely charitable here -- rude and unhelpful |
| 11:46 | <@Pi> | abudhabi: https://hbr.org/2015/03/the-5-biases-pushing-women-out-of-stem |
| 11:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | abudhabi: there are fucking REAMS of studies, juts because you don't personally notice it in your day to day life doesn't mean it isn't happening |
| 11:46 | <@Pi> | abudhabi: It's very easy to not see the biases against women if you're not a woman. |
| 11:47 | <@Pi> | Pretty much precisely because you're not a woman. You don't experience it. |
| 11:47 | <@Pi> | That's why it's important to listen to the women who actually have to deal with this every day of their professional careers. |
| 11:47 | <@Pi> | (And the stories of the many, many women who left the field because of the hostility.) |
| 11:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | And, again, even if you personally don't experience it, perhaps you could, you know |
| 11:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Believe people when they talk about their personal experiences rather than assuming they're making shit up because ??? |
| 11:48 | <@abudhabi> | I believe them. I don't automatically assume their personal experiences are reflective of reality, just as you are doing to my personal experience. |
| 11:49 | <@Tamber> | *eyeroll* |
| 11:49 | <@Pi> | abudhabi: That sounds like a contradiction. You believe them, but you don't believe them? |
| 11:50 | <@Pi> | Is there a way to interpret "I don't automatically assume their personal experiences are reflective of reality" isn't "By default, I don't believe them" ? |
| 11:51 | <@abudhabi> | Pi: There is a difference between "X happened to me" and "X happens all the time to everyone". |
| 11:52 | <@abudhabi> | I have no reason to doubt the former. I have little grounds to automatically assume the latter. |
| 11:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Pi: I think what he's saying is "I believe those individual events happened, but somehow do not believe in the extraordinarily well-documented and well-researched trend that they are evidence of" |
| 11:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | abudhabi: so, again, people have done science to this |
| 11:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you seriously want to argue that there is no systemic bias against women in STEM fields despite the preponderance of evidence, |
| 11:53 | <@Pi> | abudhabi: Pretty much all women in STEM report this all the time, and then get promptly disbelieved by men who don't want to admit this could possibly be a problem, because that would be inconveniently implicating. |
| 11:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | (a) this is so not the channel for it, go argue in #politics or #tech-mras or something |
| 11:53 | <@Pi> | abudhabi: You're pretty much doing exactly that right now, for the record. |
| 11:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | (b) even if you were right, your original response was a dick move |
| 11:55 | <@abudhabi> | I agree that #politics is a better place, and I will furthermore drop it. |
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| 12:00 | <@LadyOfLight> | sorry. I was just frustrated. |
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| 12:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | LadyOfLight: if you can't vent about code-related stupidities in here the channel loses at least 30% of its purpose, IMO |
| 13:10 | | * TheWatcher ...s at Blackboard |
| 13:10 | <@TheWatcher> | There are grades here without timestamps |
| 13:11 | <@TheWatcher> | HOW ARE THERE GRADES HERE WITHOUT TIMESTAMPS!? |
| 13:11 | <@TheWatcher> | Yog-Sothoth's tentacled balls, this system is shit. |
| 13:12 | <@abudhabi> | Sounds like the database had nulls allowed on that field, for some mysterious reason (like negligence). |
| 13:23 | <@Alek> | I could swear we had the same women/programmers/STEM/discrimination talk already, months ago. |
| 13:23 | <@Tamber> | Alek, and round and round we go, unfortunately :( |
| 13:23 | <@abudhabi> | No, it was about underrepresentation, IIRC. |
| 13:23 | <@abudhabi> | Not about competence. |
| 13:23 | <@Alek> | pretty sure competence was involved. |
| 13:25 | <@abudhabi> | In any case, #politics. |
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| 13:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: nooooooo shit |
| 13:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | There's a reason SOCS at my university ran their own in-house moodle instance |
| 13:59 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, you'd think that's sensible. Makes me wonder why we're getting rid of ours. |
| 14:08 | <@LadyOfLight> | Dammit, people keep monopolising the kitchen. I need teeeaaa |
| 15:18 | <@LadyOfLight> | This week, I am on track to replace a system with a new one that has three orders of magnitude less code in it |
| 15:18 | <@LadyOfLight> | It will be fun to delete |
| 15:24 | <@LadyOfLight> | (the asshole who wrote the original system still works for us... It was me x)) |
| 16:03 | <&[R]> | With the prior topic, I was reminded of the Women Who Code initiative. I was wondering what people thought about it? |
| 16:05 | <&[R]> | While I support the theory of it... the actual implementation is horrible. The website is nothing but arts and crafts things with no relation to actually coding. (If there's an actual coding section on the website, I missed it entirely). IMO an initiative like that seems more harmful to the image than good. |
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| 17:05 | <@Pi> | [R]: What website are you looking at? |
| 17:05 | <@Pi> | https://www.womenwhocode.com/ ? |
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| 17:06 | <&[R]> | Yeah |
| 17:06 | <@Pi> | "nothing but arts and crafts"? |
| 17:07 | <&[R]> | I think it changed up a bit, which is good |
| 17:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I...what? |
| 17:08 | <&[R]> | Yes, okay, that's good \o/ |
| 17:09 | <@Pi> | It looks about the same as when I last looked at it, a year or two ago. |
| 17:10 | <@Pi> | There doesn't seem to be any local networks though. |
| 17:12 | <&[R]> | I probably just poked around in the wrong places, I'm not used to landing pages like theirs. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Feb 09 00:00:39 2017 |