| --- Log opened Mon Feb 06 00:00:34 2017 |
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| 11:21 | <@sshine> | Find a programming language designed after the year 1990 which includes a *significant* language feature, design element or property that is *original* to this language and not found in any earlier non-academic (used outside research) programming language. |
| 11:25 | <@sshine> | I would've said dependent types, but Coq was apparently released in 1989. |
| 11:27 | <@Pi> | Define "significant" :) |
| 11:28 | <@sshine> | Pi, I didn't formulate the assignment! it's for a discussion tomorrow. got any? :) |
| 11:29 | <@sshine> | Pi, I think it could be something as simple as monad comprehensions. |
| 11:29 | <@Pi> | There's Johnathan Edwards's work: |
| 11:29 | <@Pi> | http://www.subtext-lang.org/ |
| 11:29 | <@Pi> | http://www.chorus-home.org/ |
| 11:29 | <@sshine> | even though it's mostly just syntactic sugar and abstraction embedded into an existing language. |
| 11:30 | <@sshine> | cool. |
| 11:30 | <@Pi> | Oh, it says "not found in any earlier non-academic language" |
| 11:30 | <@Pi> | That very significantly widens the field! |
| 11:30 | <@Pi> | You can certainly add dependent types, because Coq almost certainly counts as an academic language. |
| 11:31 | <@Pi> | Idris and the ongoing Haskell work (DataKinds and the in-progress dependent typing) is probably the most non-academic that has gotten. |
| 11:32 | <@sshine> | ah. |
| 11:32 | <@sshine> | right. |
| 11:32 | <@Pi> | Idris probably counts as academic, but Haskell is probably industrial enough to count as non-academic too. :) |
| 11:32 | <@sshine> | yes, I agree. |
| 11:32 | <@Pi> | Haskell has tons of other more recent stuff you could choose, like Applicative Functors |
| 11:33 | <@sshine> | at least Idris is also styled to resemble a language you could learn by internet tutorials :) |
| 11:33 | <@Pi> | Hmm, when were GADTs introduced in Haskell? |
| 11:33 | <@Pi> | I think well after 1990 though. |
| 11:34 | <@sshine> | yes |
| 11:34 | <@Pi> | Yeah, mid 2000's. |
| 11:34 | <@Pi> | GADTs should be a good one to talk about. |
| 11:35 | <@Pi> | sshine: I think STM in GHC counts too |
| 11:36 | <@Pi> | STM was introduced in... 2005? |
| 11:36 | <@Pi> | I don't think any industrial language had STM before GHC (and now PyPy?) |
| 11:37 | <@Pi> | sshine: Pattern Guards? |
| 11:37 | <@sshine> | wow, that's a good one. |
| 11:37 | <@sshine> | I'd like to expand beyond Haskell ;) |
| 11:38 | <@Pi> | They're a more minor feature though. |
| 11:38 | <@sshine> | that's okay. |
| 11:38 | <@sshine> | but aren't they sort of old in Erlang? |
| 11:38 | <@sshine> | I'll find out. |
| 11:38 | <@Pi> | I don't think Erlang's is the same as Haskell's. |
| 11:38 | <@Pi> | sshine: Oh, regarding monad comprehensions, they may predate 1990. |
| 11:38 | <@sshine> | ok. |
| 11:39 | <@Pi> | I know they were removed in Haskell 98, anyway. |
| 11:39 | <@Pi> | sshine: Ooh, PyPy itself probably counts. |
| 11:39 | <@sshine> | how so? |
| 11:40 | <@Pi> | It's the first non-academic language implementation that compiles itself using partial evaluation of an interpreter. |
| 11:40 | <@sshine> | ohhh. |
| 11:40 | <@sshine> | cool. |
| 11:40 | <@Pi> | IOW, it's the first implementation of the third (?) Futamura Projection. |
| 11:41 | <@sshine> | I know that the PL dept. at University of Copenhagen were really heavily into partial evaluation back then. |
| 11:41 | <@Pi> | It's also the first of its kind generic JIT generator. |
| 11:41 | <@Pi> | Among other things. |
| 11:41 | <@Pi> | PyPy has a couple of firsts to its name. |
| 11:41 | <@sshine> | hmm, cool. |
| 11:42 | <@sshine> | also it seems like they just ditched the whole GIL debacle. |
| 11:42 | <@Pi> | Hey, the GIL is mostly misunderstood. |
| 11:42 | <@Pi> | It's certainly not a debacle. |
| 11:42 | <@sshine> | wrt. concurrency and threads |
| 11:43 | <@Pi> | sshine: At a first approximation, most criticism you'll read about the Python GIL is ill-founded. |
| 11:43 | <@Pi> | (And I can rant about that if necessary.) |
| 11:44 | <@sshine> | ok, I admit I'm probably fuelling a fire I don't completely comprehend. but I tried the multiprocessing library in Python and it seems like a hack. |
| 11:45 | <@sshine> | and yes, I don't think Erlang's and Haskell's pattern guards are the same. |
| 11:45 | <@Pi> | It's no more or less of a hack than multiprocessing in any other language. |
| 11:46 | <@Pi> | It has the same trade-offs. |
| 11:46 | <@Pi> | Multithreading in Python also has the same trade-offs as in any other language. |
| 11:47 | <@sshine> | Erlang's guards are restricted to a set of built-in functions that are more likely to (but not guaranteed to) evaluate in a short amount of time. Haskell's don't try to enforce something like that. |
| 11:47 | <@Pi> | Most comparable runtimes (Ruby, Node, etc.) avoid having a GIL by not having native multithreading at all. |
| 11:47 | <@Pi> | Which, compared to Python, is just like having an even bigger GIL. |
| 11:48 | <@sshine> | Python's multiprocessing library won't let me pmap(lambda x: ..., xs) or even pmap(localDef, xs) because of differences in how bytecode is generated. |
| 11:48 | <@Pi> | Python's GIL actually allows it to have true native multithreading, with safety by default and explicit concurrency for code that can release the GIL. |
| 11:49 | <@Pi> | The competing peers simply don't hav that. |
| 11:49 | <@sshine> | oh. hm. |
| 11:51 | <@Pi> | sshine: Almost all other languages' multiprocessing libraries will have similar limitations and provisos. |
| 11:51 | <@Pi> | Multiprocessing is a hard problem. :) |
| 11:51 | <@Pi> | (And most languages aren't Erlang.) |
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| 16:35 | <@sshine> | Pi, thanks for the brainstorm earlier. |
| 16:38 | <@Pi> | Sure. :) |
| 16:40 | <@sshine> | Pi, can you think of any features outside Haskell, Idris, FP? I think PyPy was a nice one. just in case people don't accept the premise that Haskell is an industrial language. :-D |
| 16:40 | <@sshine> | I googled and saw that 'pattern guards' are in Haskell and from 1997. |
| 16:41 | <@Pi> | Not offhand. |
| 16:42 | <@sshine> | well, Haskell is a trove. |
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| 18:41 | <&McMartin> | JavaScript was designed in 1995 and uses prototype-based inheritance. |
| 18:41 | <&McMartin> | Self isn't an industrial language. :) |
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| 20:53 | <&[R]> | https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/security/advisories/mfsa2017-01/ <-- sstay on FF 50 if you can for now |
| 20:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...why? |
| 20:56 | <~Vornicus> | I don't see anything here that suggests that's a good idea? |
| 20:56 | <&[R]> | ... I did not read things through |
| 20:56 | <@celticminstrel> | Eh, I'm already stuck on 48 or so, so whatever. |
| 20:57 | | * Vornicus patpats [R] |
| 20:57 | <&[R]> | <Pegasique> 51 is eternal pain. going to roll back to 50.. |
| 20:57 | <&[R]> | <Peng> https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/security/advisories/mfsa2017-01/ D: |
| 20:57 | <&[R]> | ^ That was my context when getting the link |
| 20:58 | <@celticminstrel> | If browsers weren't so complicated I'd be very tempted to make my own. :/ |
| 20:59 | <@celticminstrel> | I've heard good things about Vivaldi though. Only reason I haven't looked more closely is that it can't run on my Mac. (I tried it out briefly on Windows though.) |
| 20:59 | <&[R]> | Considering that browsers are basically so complicated each of the main components are their own projects... yeah... |
| 20:59 | <@celticminstrel> | At some point recently I compared a browser to an OS. |
| 21:00 | <&[R]> | Vivaldi's insistance on only distributing as rpm/deb confuses the hell out of me. |
| 21:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: at this point they basically ARE OSes |
| 21:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Terrible, hateful OSes |
| 21:01 | <&[R]> | With very horrible memory management issues |
| 21:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Which it seems almost no-one cares about. |
| 21:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Because hey, modern computers have plenty of memory, right? |
| 21:04 | <&[R]> | Considering that I have to close and reopen it almost daily... |
| 21:04 | <&[R]> | :/ |
| 21:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Similarly here. Sometimes more than once in a day. |
| 21:05 | <@celticminstrel> | Especially if I'm compiling anything. |
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| 21:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Also if I'm working on JS stuff, sometimes. |
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| 21:30 | < mahmoudgebril> | 9 11 attacks, Did USA do it itself or it just let it happen? |
| 21:30 | < mahmoudgebril> | Did USA administration murder 3000 American citizen in 9 11 attacks to justify starting a war against iraq? |
| 21:30 | < mahmoudgebril> | If al-qaeda did it, why go to kill 2 million Iraqi? |
| 21:30 | < mahmoudgebril> | http://creatvchaos.blogspot.com.eg/ |
| 21:30 | < mahmoudgebril> | https://creatvchaos.wordpress.com/ |
| 21:30 | < mahmoudgebril> | Some of the benefits Americans say they achieved after 9 11 attacks include: |
| 21:30 | < mahmoudgebril> | *constant flow of oil, which price is in continuous decline. Trump said he will simply take the Iraqi oil, and when he was told that Iraqi oil belongs to iraq he said there is no iraq(after usa destroyed it ). |
| 21:30 | < mahmoudgebril> | *Invasion of afghanstan with construction of not less than 14 american military base which give a close eye on china. |
| 21:30 | < mahmoudgebril> | *Removal of potential threat to isreal represented in iraq which throw isreal with more than 30 rocket after American assault on iraq during 2nd gulf war. |
| 21:30 | | mode/#code [+b mahmoudgebril!*@*] by McMartin |
| 21:30 | | mahmoudgebril was kicked from #code by McMartin [Off-topic truther spam] |
| 21:31 | <&McMartin> | Attn actual netops, this guy's hitting multiple channels |
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| 21:33 | <@gnolam> | Those are some pretty heavy-duty rockets if the combined throw weight of 30 of them equals Israel. |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | That depends on how big you presume Israel is supposed to actually be, I suppose |
| 21:35 | <~Vornicus> | no longer on, by the way |
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| --- Log closed Tue Feb 07 00:00:36 2017 |