| --- Log opened Sat Jan 28 00:00:18 2017 |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/antivirus-is-bad/ |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | As someone who's engaged in trench warfare in this space I find myself agreeing more than I expected to |
| 00:46 | <&[R]> | If you're running Windows you're best off being able to reimage your computer weekly IMO |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | Can also confirm that Windows Defender is the AV that is most able to coexist with software by anyone else |
| 00:47 | <&[R]> | Well yeah. |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | Not just because it's a thing you can standardize against, either; it's intrinsically less... |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | ... well, the term we used was "all-elbows" |
| 00:47 | <&[R]> | Until Win10 came about, MS cared very much about people being able to pretend to do work. |
| 00:48 | <&[R]> | Unlike AV vendors, they actually want to present something that makes it look like you could use it to be productive. |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | Transparent reimaging of the system level of Windows software on every bootup was actually part of the product I worked on, back in the trenches |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | We had built a technology not unlike unionfs to allow it |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | *so* much shit could not coexist with it |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | WinDef was fine |
| 00:48 | <&[R]> | Doesn't Windows have that Shadow Volume thing? |
| 00:49 | <&McMartin> | It does but it's not pervasive enough for what we wanted to do with it |
| 00:49 | <&McMartin> | We needed control at not just the directory but file level, and also at the registry key/value levels |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | This turns out to be easier on Windows than POSIX at that level because the POSIX equivalent would be the ability to merge multiple sets of changes to arbitrary files in /etc without everything exploding |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | Which is a harder problem in general |
| 00:50 | <&[R]> | Yeah |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | That company didn't last, but it lasted a decently long time and was deployed at some very large installations |
| 00:50 | | * [R] found that out when he played with CFEngine. |
| 00:51 | <&McMartin> | It seems the world has moved on to containerization for attacking similar problems, and just leaves it unsolved in the space we were primarily operating in (mass-administered desktops) |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | Does Linux use two-level symbols yet? |
| 00:52 | <&[R]> | Two-level symbols? |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | They didn't at the time and this was a source of a great many serious headaches for our Linux product |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | A procedure/global's symbol is not just its name within its module, but also the module itself |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | The upshot is that if two shared objects each link different shared objects that have symbol conflicts, nothing notices |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | At the time, you could painfully simulate it in Linux by doing this by hand with dlopen and dlsym and maintaining separate arrays of indirect calls |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | But that included its own pitfalls and inconveniences |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | (Also you were out of luck if you wanted to link those two libraries whose dependencies conflicted and _they_ did not do this) |
| 00:54 | <&[R]> | This is not something I have the knowledge to answer |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | I leave it for the floor, then~ |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | I know it's not intrinsic to Unixy systems, as macOS moved towards a two-level system some years ago |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | But they also don't use ELF, so... |
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| 01:24 | <~Vornicus> | hooray, hand-writing svg |
| 01:24 | <@celticminstrel> | Is it my imagination or is the problem he's mentioning with antivirus software at least partly based on it being more than just antivirus software. |
| 01:24 | <@celticminstrel> | (That sounds like a pain, Vorn.) |
| 01:24 | <~Vornicus> | celmin: vastly less than what I was trying earlier~ |
| 01:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh really? |
| 01:25 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah. |
| 01:25 | <~Vornicus> | Drawing tools that assume you are perfectly accurate with your mouse and for which "snap to grid" means "only snap to the grid when you're already within 2px of the grid" are no fun |
| 01:26 | <@celticminstrel> | I think the ones I've used generally snapped to the nearest grid line to your cursor... |
| 01:26 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah. illustrator claims to do that but will only actually snap to grid corners if you're crazy close to it. |
| 01:27 | <@celticminstrel> | Also I wonder if clam is also included in the list of terrible AVs. |
| 01:29 | <&McMartin> | The biggest issue is ones that include some kind of real-time protection element |
| 01:29 | <&McMartin> | They usually end up shimming the entire operating system and adding arbitrary costs to various system calls |
| 01:30 | <~Vornicus> | Since I also need irrational-valued radiuses for certain circles, being able to do the calculation and put the number in directly is really helpful |
| 01:31 | <~Vornicus> | Which *technically* you can do in illustrator but it turns out that SVG does that better too, for my purposes |
| 01:35 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: My guess is that ClamAV is not, but Winpooch/ClamFS likely would |
| 01:35 | <&McMartin> | It depends on how they are implemented. |
| 01:35 | <&McMartin> | Performance and interop vary widely |
| 01:36 | <&McMartin> | ClamFS is apparently a FUSE client; if the Windows equivalent uses filesystem minifilter drivers then it is likely to interop cleanly with stuff but will (by the nature of the problem) drive your filesystem performance to shit |
| 01:36 | <&McMartin> | Since it's scanning every file you ever open |
| 01:42 | <~Vornicus> | (it'd be nice if, like postscript, I could do the calculation in situ, but svg turns out to work better for me today) |
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| 13:53 | <@TheWatcher> | Urge to track down the inventors of SOAP and beat them to death with a comically oversizes bar of soap rising... |
| 14:06 | <@abudhabi> | That reminds me of the time when I ran into a problem where Glassfish and JBoss/WildFly had different attitidues about multiple reads of the same input stream. |
| 14:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | catalyst: so I'm rummaging around in the mod editor and I was 90% right about why I ended up with 50kg of mushrooms. |
| 14:16 | <@abudhabi> | Mushrooms? |
| 14:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | It looks like they attached scripts to a bunch of plants to override the default harvesting behaviour -- e.g. most fungus have 50% harvest chance outdoors and 100% indoors, corn has a 45% chance to give you 2 corn and a 30% chance for 1 rotten corn, and some plants give you multiple copies of the ingredient, which can't be done just by editing the struct |
| 14:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | But in all of those scripts, they prevent you from multi-harvesting by calling (Disable) rather than (SetHarvested 1) |
| 14:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | And "disable" turns off the object's physics, rendering, AI, and scripts, but *does not* hide it from things that use GetNextRef to walk all the objects in a cell. |
| 14:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | abudhabi: I'm playing Nehrim (an Oblivion TC), and since harvesting ingredients by hand is a huge pain I installed DZ Auto Harvest |
| 14:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | And it went sproing and started harvesting the same patch of mushrooms twice a second |
| 14:19 | <@TheWatcher> | Shrooms! |
| 14:21 | < catalyst> | :D |
| 14:21 | < catalyst> | game developers~ |
| 14:22 | <@abudhabi> | I'm tempted to :paradox: but it's probably not them this time. |
| 14:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | No, it's SureAI |
| 14:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, SureAI and Bethesda |
| 14:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Since this would have been harder to screw up in this way if Oblivion's scripting API weren't such a trainwreck |
| 14:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Anyways, I *think* I have now successfully modified the harvesting script so that it will skip anything that: is forbidden, contains no ingredients, has already been harvested, or is disabled |
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| 15:27 | | * catalyst successfully adds gtest to a project |
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| 19:16 | < catalyst> | apparently when I need documentation on C++ standard library features, I just consult the standard now |
| 19:16 | | * catalyst ._o |
| 19:26 | | * Vornotron patpats catalyst |
| 19:27 | | * catalyst starts babbling eldritch runes under her breath |
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| 19:52 | | * Derakon swears at $coworker. |
| 19:53 | <&Derakon> | I've been working on a big change to some complicated code for over a week now. |
| 19:53 | <&Derakon> | It was finally ready to go in...and immediately beforehand, $coworker got in a commit that changed the names of a bunch of variables. |
| 19:53 | <&Derakon> | A huge, sweeping, but utterly trivial change that requires no understanding of the code has completely derailed my huge, subtle, and understanding-required change, and of course broken all the tests I added. |
| 20:01 | < catalyst> | x_x |
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| 20:07 | < Vornotron> | bite him |
| 20:09 | <&Derakon> | I can't do that, he's the tech lead. |
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| 20:50 | <@celticminstrel> | Maybe it's about time to find a replacement for Firefox. |
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| 21:22 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: Is this in the absence of or reacting to the latest update? |
| 21:22 | <&McMartin> | Firefox 51 does process-level tab isolation now, IIRC |
| 21:29 | <@celticminstrel> | I haven't actually seen the latest updated. I'm currenylu fixed on version 47 for two unrelated reasons. |
| 21:29 | <@celticminstrel> | ^currently |
| 21:30 | <@celticminstrel> | ^update |
| 21:31 | <@celticminstrel> | It's based on a message from the Tab Groups addon dev that randomly popped up without prompting (annoying in itself!) coupled with the way they've been going for addons and customization in general. |
| 21:33 | <@celticminstrel> | (The two unrelated reasons are that two of my addons no longer work in Firefox 48, and Firefox 49 will not run on my computer.) |
| 21:33 | <@celticminstrel> | (They no longer work because they're not signed, and it's absolutely impossible to override this anymore.) |
| 21:33 | <@TheWatcher> | ... "will not run", wut |
| 21:34 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, my computer is over ten years old, so I'm probably lucky it took that long. |
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| 22:36 | <@abudhabi> | I sometimes question my continued subscription to backup internets. |
| 22:36 | <@abudhabi> | But not this day. |
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| 23:34 | <@celticminstrel> | What? |
| 23:37 | <@abudhabi> | I normally use wired broadband. On rare occasion, it bugs out. |
| 23:37 | <@abudhabi> | For these occasions, I have cellular broadband. |
| --- Log closed Sun Jan 29 00:00:20 2017 |