| --- Log opened Mon Jul 25 00:00:49 2016 |
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| 15:33 | <@abudhabi> | What does "550 5.2.1 Mailbox cannot be accessed" mean? |
| 15:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Probably the account is disabled, or being rate limited. |
| 15:40 | <@TheWatcher> | (or it may not exist at all, of coursE) |
| 15:41 | <@abudhabi> | Boss' subordinate tells me my work email has been down... for the last two weeks. >_< |
| 15:45 | <@TheWatcher> | Eeegh |
| 15:45 | <@abudhabi> | I wonder what *else* is down. |
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| 18:39 | | mode/#code [+ao Derakon Derakon] by ChanServ |
| 18:39 | | * Derakon twitches at this pull request. |
| 18:40 | <&Derakon> | <user> "Here's a pull request to tweak the GUI. I didn't follow the style rules, also wherever there's a call to a super-class's method that doesn't begin with "super." I inserted the "super." And I couldn't figure out how to do the GUI tweak properly, but whatever." |
| 18:40 | <&Derakon> | <me> "Here's how you can easily do the GUI tweak properly. Follow the style rules, and sticking "super." in front of a bunch of methods looks ugly and implies that the class overrides those methods and specifically wants to use the super's version of them, so please don't do that." |
| 18:40 | <@gnolam> | >_< |
| 18:41 | <&Derakon> | <user> "Feel free to implement all that stuff yourself. Meanwhile, I really want this change, so I'm going to fork your project." |
| 18:41 | <@gnolam> | ... because that's less work |
| 18:42 | <@Tamber> | It's less work if all you're going to do is fork it, hack your stupid shit in, then never keep it up to date ever again~ |
| 18:42 | <&Derakon> | I think his perspective is that it's easier to fork the project than it is to make his way through the "bureaucracy". |
| 18:42 | <&Derakon> | The funny thing is that he's commented multiple times on how nice our code is, but he doesn't apparently realize that it's only nice because we have standards. |
| 18:54 | <~Vornicus> | kill |
| 18:55 | <&Derakon> | I can't kill him, I might need him for job references. |
| 19:08 | < Pink> | fork him, kill the original and use the updated one for references |
| 19:08 | < Pink> | It's only a small tweak you need |
| 19:11 | | * Alek ponders. |
| 19:11 | <@Alek> | so uh. as I recall it, java was considered to be somewhat decent for coding and javascript was considered a horrible mess of a language. or am I misremembering something? |
| 19:12 | < Pink> | Why not both |
| 19:14 | <@gnolam> | Alek: no, that's about right. |
| 19:14 | <@Alek> | anyway. javascript is now gaining more traction, with sublanguages using it, while java is less and less supported. first chrome drops it, then edge. also I think it was dropped on android. as was flash, which is also not supported by chrome anymore. |
| 19:14 | <@gnolam> | They also have nothing to do with each other. |
| 19:14 | <@Alek> | yeah, that much I got. :P |
| 19:15 | <@Alek> | flash's job is being taken over by html5, mainly. what takes over from java? |
| 19:15 | < Pink> | google. |
| 19:15 | < Pink> | Well, technically they're just taking over in general. |
| 19:15 | <@Alek> | <_< |
| 19:16 | <@gnolam> | Java hasn't been a client-side thing for ages. |
| 19:16 | <@Alek> | at least google's doing monopoly right, so far. |
| 19:16 | <@Alek> | not like M$... |
| 19:16 | < Pink> | Arbitrarily breaking a decade of websites that aren't ever gonna be updated. |
| 19:16 | < Pink> | ...no. No, google isn't doing monopoly right. |
| 19:17 | < Pink> | They are doing it horribly. |
| 19:17 | <@Alek> | ok, enlighten us please. |
| 19:17 | < Pink> | Just take a look at the steaming mess that is Youtube. |
| 19:17 | < Pink> | Look at the shit that is Chrome. |
| 19:17 | | * Alek looks. |
| 19:18 | <@Alek> | better than FF or IE or Edge. |
| 19:18 | <@Alek> | YT works fine for me, too. |
| 19:18 | < Pink> | FF now is turning shitty because it is... trying to copy chrome. |
| 19:18 | <@Alek> | mind, IE is way better now than it used to be, too. |
| 19:18 | <@Alek> | FF has been shitty for years. |
| 19:19 | < Pink> | Chrome is amazing under the hood, it is great technology. Its UI is garbage that people accept because that is the only flavor it comes in. |
| 19:19 | <@Alek> | and FF is doing it shittily because it's trying to copy chrome's results without trying to copy their starting position, from what I can tell. |
| 19:19 | <@ErikMesoy> | I feel like I'm playing Browserchase. |
| 19:19 | <@ErikMesoy> | I will second that the various browsers keep taking turns being shitty for some reason. |
| 19:19 | < Pink> | FF's UI has turned to crap but I can trivially change it back to something reasonable. |
| 19:20 | <@ErikMesoy> | I am currently on Pale Moon, which is kinda like firefox but without certain recent shit. |
| 19:20 | | * Derakon readsup. |
| 19:20 | <&Derakon> | Okay, so. |
| 19:20 | <@Alek> | FF's crap under the hood too. |
| 19:20 | <&Derakon> | Java in the browser is dead. |
| 19:20 | <@Alek> | it's THE worst memory leaker right now. |
| 19:20 | < Pink> | I know that FF is crap under the hood. |
| 19:20 | <&Derakon> | Because it's impossible to sandbox properly, and achieve adequate performance. |
| 19:20 | < Pink> | And I just said that chrome is GOOD under the hood. |
| 19:20 | <&Derakon> | Java as a language is doing just fine and dandy in non-browser contexts. |
| 19:20 | <@Alek> | I run several dozen tabs in Chrome for days on end, and it hardly takes up any rss. |
| 19:20 | < Pink> | But Chrome is pretty much unusable for me. |
| 19:21 | <&Derakon> | Javascript is an okay scripting language tied to an awful object model (the DOM) and extended way too far beyond what is sane. |
| 19:21 | < Pink> | I run both simultaneously, actually. But it is very hard to run over 30 tabs in a chrome window, much less 500. |
| 19:21 | <@Alek> | Derakon: also badly used by way too many scripters? |
| 19:21 | <@Alek> | Pink: I run 3-4 windows, with one holding about 2-3 dozen tabs. no problem. |
| 19:22 | < Pink> | also I don't technically use firefox, I use waterfox(an old 64 bit fork) |
| 19:22 | <&Derakon> | Alek: well, that's true for any widely-used tool. |
| 19:22 | <&Derakon> | 90% of tool users are crap~ |
| 19:22 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 19:22 | <@Alek> | heh. true. |
| 19:22 | < Pink> | Compare how the two browsers do large numbers of tabs. |
| 19:23 | <@Alek> | I have. Chrome outperforms FF right now, and has for years, in my experience. |
| 19:23 | <&McMartin> | Re: JS, it seems like JS has managed to also serve as a useful proving ground for a lot of stuff that then spreads |
| 19:23 | < Pink> | I'm not talking about performance at all. |
| 19:23 | <@Alek> | and I've got an old machine. |
| 19:23 | <&McMartin> | JS's implementation of futures is, flat-out, superior to standard C++ at this time |
| 19:23 | <@Alek> | what are you talking about then? |
| 19:23 | <&McMartin> | (Hopefully this will be fixed in the next C++ standard revision, but it's got some looting to do~) |
| 19:24 | <@Alek> | if it's memory, FF leaks badly with less than half a dozen tabs within hours. |
| 19:25 | <&McMartin> | FF shifting over to a process model like Chrome's will help for the case where tabs don't stay open for long. |
| 19:25 | <@Alek> | ugh. I like learning, why do I have such trouble focusing on some texts, to the point where I get headaches? |
| 19:25 | <@Alek> | and it's just some texts. |
| 19:25 | <@Alek> | and I love reading, too. |
| 19:25 | <@Alek> | (ok, many texts) |
| 19:25 | <@gnolam> | 9 times out of 10, memory leaks can be attributed to an add-on. |
| 19:25 | <@Alek> | I've been running my ff without addons for years now. |
| 19:26 | <@Alek> | gave up on it. |
| 19:26 | < Pink> | My problem with chrome is that this is the current tab bar: http://i.imgur.com/hZv146K.jpg |
| 19:26 | <@Alek> | most of my tabs stay open for days or weeks. |
| 19:26 | <&McMartin> | Alek: Do you have issues with eye tracking? |
| 19:26 | <&McMartin> | (re: focus trouble) |
| 19:26 | <&Derakon> | Pink: seems like some mechanism for coloring tab backgrounds would be helpful. |
| 19:26 | <@Alek> | ok, touche, pinky. that's why I use several windows to break it up. |
| 19:26 | <&Derakon> | Something like "hash tab title -> generate pastel RGB code". |
| 19:27 | <@Alek> | ooh, that sounds nifty, Derakon. submit a plugin and I'll test it. XD |
| 19:27 | < Pink> | Dera- there are all sorts of ways to fix it that google will do their best not to let you use because they have decided that their horrible ui is great and you shouldn't change it. |
| 19:27 | <&Derakon> | Pink: ahh, the Apple approach. |
| 19:28 | <@Alek> | McM: sometimes. on my monitor and in paper textbooks, sometimes, but not every time. on my phone, not really. |
| 19:28 | <@Alek> | I do need new glasses, I've had these for over 2.5 years... |
| 19:28 | < Pink> | I happen to like firefox's style, circa several years ago, with tabs not-on-top, and a bar of tabs that is a)searchable and b) scrolls, with an added dropdown for spillover. |
| 19:29 | <@Alek> | ok, scrolling tabs I don't like, personally. but whatever. |
| 19:29 | < Pink> | And even though ff has moved away from the way I like it, restoring it to that is trivial. |
| 19:29 | < Pink> | Yeah, Alek, but you can turn it off in ff if you want. |
| 19:29 | < Pink> | You're not allowed to tell chrome what you like, it will tell you what you like. |
| 19:29 | <@Alek> | mouseover a shortened tab shows me the title in a tooltip, which I like, in chrome. it works for me. |
| 19:30 | < Pink> | Unless you have too many, in which case it simply won't show up at all in the tab bar even when that tab is the active one- you need to alt tab to it, and cannot close the tab except using keyboard shortcuts. |
| 19:30 | <@Alek> | McM: why were you asking though? |
| 19:31 | <@Alek> | hm. I' |
| 19:31 | <@Alek> | I've never had THAT problem, pink. |
| 19:31 | <@Alek> | how many do you need for that to happen, 500? |
| 19:32 | <@Alek> | I don't break 100... I spread out over multiple windows, like I said. |
| 19:32 | < Pink> | The number I have on that screenshot I posted plus three. |
| 19:32 | < Pink> | I know, for reasons |
| 19:32 | <@Alek> | and I like that I can drag tabs out of a window, into their own. and into another window. |
| 19:32 | < Pink> | Yeah, that is something firefox can do too, except better. |
| 19:33 | < Pink> | Also, for some reason chrome won't let you drag images off the web into other applications. |
| 19:33 | < Pink> | firefox does |
| 19:33 | <&McMartin> | Alek: Because the idea that you liked reading but it was hurting you to do so led me to think of that as the simplest explanation |
| 19:34 | <@Alek> | I count 111 there. |
| 19:34 | < Pink> | So 114. |
| 19:34 | < Pink> | +/- a couple due to having pinned tabs |
| 19:34 | <@Alek> | ... chrome lets me drag images out no problem. |
| 19:35 | < Pink> | I can drag them out into folkders, but not into(say) photoshop |
| 19:35 | < Pink> | making it an annoying three step process |
| 19:35 | < Pink> | chrome>folder>photoshop>delete temp file |
| 19:36 | < Pink> | or more often, chrome>firefox>photoshop |
| 19:36 | <@Alek> | ok, it doesn't work with paint. but I don't have other tools installed currently to test. |
| 19:37 | < Pink> | But yeah, very few of my problems with chrome are technical ones. They are all deliberate decisions to tell me that I'm not allowed to have a web browser with a decent ui, a standard ui, or failing either a UI I can reasonably change. |
| 19:38 | <@Alek> | although it's not so much the focus problems that are hurting in this case as trying to comprehend the text. |
| 19:38 | <@Alek> | McM. |
| 19:38 | < Pink> | Which is why I say that they are doing a monopoly wrong, because they use their monopoly to say 'well, too bad.' Same with Youtube. |
| 19:38 | <&McMartin> | Alek: Aha, OK |
| 19:39 | <@Alek> | I mean, I get it... but I don't /get/ it. trying to follow it and understand the basis is what hurts. |
| 19:39 | <@Alek> | even though it's relatively simple stuff that I know I already understand from other places. |
| 19:40 | <@Alek> | well, most of it. XD |
| 19:40 | | * Alek is still early in this JS book. finishing chapter 3. -_- |
| 19:43 | <&McMartin> | Sorry, I think I misread your first statement then. I was thinking eyestrain. :D |
| 19:45 | <@Alek> | ha, I've been waiting to use a ternary operator! finally! XD |
| 19:45 | <@Alek> | function min(a, b) { |
| 19:45 | <@Alek> | return(a <= b ? a : b); |
| 19:45 | <@Alek> | }; |
| 19:46 | <@Alek> | (code I just wrote for the exercise at chapter end) |
| 19:46 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 19:46 | <&McMartin> | It's a mighty power you must use wisely~ |
| 19:46 | < catalyst> | (<= a b) |
| 19:46 | < catalyst> | Hm, good question |
| 19:47 | | * Alek eyes cat's line |
| 19:47 | <@Alek> | what's that from? |
| 19:47 | < catalyst> | (if (<= a b) a b) |
| 19:47 | < catalyst> | clojure |
| 19:47 | <&McMartin> | That's not how < works in... yeah |
| 19:48 | <@Alek> | ah, clojure. got it. |
| 19:48 | <&McMartin> | I was going to finish that with "Scheme" |
| 19:48 | <&McMartin> | Though it is also associative in scheme |
| 19:48 | < catalyst> | lisp* |
| 19:48 | <&McMartin> | You can do (< 1 2 3) => #t, (< 1 3 2) => #f |
| 19:48 | < catalyst> | (Klene star) |
| 19:48 | | * Alek shrugs. |
| 19:48 | <&McMartin> | lis, lisp, lispp, lisppp... |
| 19:48 | < catalyst> | huh |
| 19:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | I believe the clojure one works the same way |
| 19:48 | < catalyst> | :D |
| 19:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yep |
| 19:48 | <&McMartin> | Likely, but I don't have Clojure handy |
| 19:49 | <&McMartin> | I try not to install Java unless forced, and so only half my machines have it |
| 19:49 | < catalyst> | clojure's docs specify non-nil |
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| 19:49 | < catalyst> | HI ME |
| 19:49 | <&McMartin> | IT'S YOU |
| 19:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I run clojure on all my machines, so everything has a JRE and lein on it |
| 19:50 | <~Vornicus> | my hi me? |
| 19:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | (specifically, I run it on artifex and thoth because I write clojure on them, and I run it on ancilla because I run daemons I wrote in clojure on it) |
| 19:50 | <@Alek> | I think the example code expected something other than a ternary, since the hints mention being able to use multiple returns. XD |
| 19:50 | <@Alek> | maybe if/else |
| 19:50 | <@Alek> | but I like this more. |
| 19:51 | <@Alek> | I think it's more elegant. <_< |
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| 19:51 | <@Alek> | if not the ternary, I would have broken out || maybe |
| 19:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | What it wants is probably something like "if (a < b) { return a; } return b;", yeah |
| 19:51 | <@Alek> | that's basically what the ternary breaks down to, tf. |
| 19:51 | <@Alek> | just... in less space. |
| 19:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 19:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | But I mean, if they were hinting that you could have multiple return statements, that's probably what they were thinking of. |
| 19:53 | <@Alek> | yup. |
| 19:54 | | * Alek eyes the next example. |
| 19:54 | <@Alek> | test evenness, without the modulus. use function recursion. |
| 19:54 | <@Alek> | eeew. so inelegant. |
| 19:55 | <~Vornicus> | who cares if it's elegant |
| 19:55 | <@Alek> | ok, so awkward and inefficient and why even try when there are so many better ways? XD |
| 19:55 | <~Vornicus> | Again who cares |
| 19:55 | <@Alek> | lol |
| 19:55 | <~Vornicus> | this is an example of the kinds of things that are possible, not a thing that you'd do in live code. |
| 19:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | Because it's a learning exercise rather than production code. |
| 19:57 | <&McMartin> | And because you're practicing the part where you organize a recursive solution, not the part where you also have a problem to solve |
| 19:58 | <~Vornicus> | you already know what a correct solution outputs when not artificially restricted; you don't have to discover that as well as use tools you don;t know.\ |
| 20:02 | < Pink> | elegance is another term for 'hard to debug' |
| 20:07 | | * catalyst had a bit of a brain-upside-down moment when she saw how if is implemented in Smalltalk today |
| 20:50 | <@Alek> | I noticed something funny in the first example. I accidentally nested console.log(), so it outputted the correct response followed by an undefined. XD |
| 20:51 | <@Alek> | side effects indeed. <_< |
| 21:26 | | * McMartin tries to reconfigure irssi. Back soon, hopefully. |
| 21:26 | | McMartin [mcmartin@Nightstar-rpcdbf.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: updates] |
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| 21:26 | | mode/#code [+ao McMartin McMartin] by ChanServ |
| 21:27 | <&McMartin> | Well, that's a promising start |
| 21:27 | <&McMartin> | (One of the servers on my autoconnect list has shut down permanently; I needed to remove its channels from my autojoin and the server from the autoconnect list.) |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | In other news, any day I no longer need to rely on std::enable_shared_from_this<> is a good day. |
| 22:42 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 23:04 | | Derakon [chriswei@Nightstar-5mvs4e.ca.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: leaving] |
| 23:04 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 23:27 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 23:29 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 23:33 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 23:33 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:43 | < catalyst> | Yes |
| 23:44 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-bt5k4h.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 23:51 | | catadroid` is now known as catadroid |
| 23:56 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| --- Log closed Tue Jul 26 00:00:05 2016 |