| --- Log opened Wed Jun 29 00:00:55 2016 |
| --- Day changed Wed Jun 29 2016 |
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| 00:46 | <&Derakon> | ...cripes, the MacTeX download is 2.7GB. |
| 00:46 | <&Derakon> | They clearly don't believe in having an installer that does downloads itself. |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | A deeply offensive incursion of the modern world which assumes always-on network connectivity! Unclean! Evil! |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | (We got so much shit for being a net installer in UQM back in '03, hot damn) |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | Hey, my upcoming vacation might give me a decent shot at getting UQM to actually fucking work on El Capitan, just in time for Sierra to come out and no doubt break the fuck out of everything again |
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| 00:57 | <&Derakon> | Ugh. Do the install (there goes 5GB on my SSD!), try to typeset, it complains that TeX still isn't installed. |
| 00:57 | <&Derakon> | Fucker. |
| 00:59 | <&Derakon> | Because it's looking in /usr/local/teTeX instead of /usr/local/texlive, looks like. |
| 01:04 | <&Derakon> | Ah! Bad preferences. |
| 01:10 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: Query, does your installer come with the basic must-have-to-play-game stuff pre-installed |
| 01:10 | <@Reiv> | Because I can get behind "We gave you the core functionality, do you want the extras Y/N" as an option |
| 01:10 | <&[R]> | Derakon: why would you even want that anyways? If I download an installer, I want it to be complete. Downloading a downloader is annoying AF. |
| 01:11 | <&Derakon> | [R]: because ideally the downloader would only download the bits it determines are necessary. |
| 01:11 | <&Derakon> | For example, I already have ghostscript on this computer, so there was no need to download it a second time. |
| 01:11 | <&[R]> | Especially when you're trying to load up a system that doesn't have working networking, and some jackass decides that instead of letting you download the NIC drivers, you can download an .exe that'll download and install them for you... |
| 01:11 | <&[R]> | Thanks jackass. |
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| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: If you wanted an offline installer you needed to download a separate file that was ten times as big and updated less frequently |
| 01:13 | <&McMartin> | executable/core data/1993 expansion content/21st century expansion content (in four parts), basically. |
| 01:13 | <&McMartin> | The installer for the first could grab any of the rest |
| 01:14 | <@Reiv> | aha |
| 01:15 | <@Reiv> | Oh, I've said it before |
| 01:15 | <@Reiv> | But I'd like to personally thank you and the UQM dudes, McM |
| 01:15 | <@Reiv> | That game was one of the definitive 'whoa' moments of my childhood. To learn that it's been kept strong for so long leaves me with a happy fuzzy every time I think of it. |
| 01:16 | <&[R]> | The Starcrontrol 2 port thing? |
| 01:16 | <@Reiv> | And, y'know, means that I still have the opportunity to maybe one day beat it~ |
| 01:16 | <&McMartin> | You should totally get on that~ |
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| 09:38 | <&[R]> | <Nomikos> function createOrDeleteHfGebruiker($hfpPersoonId) // you know it's gonna be good with a name like that |
| 09:39 | <@abudhabi> | dutch.jpg |
| 09:46 | <@TheWatcher> | .... wait, wat |
| 09:46 | <@TheWatcher> | Why use "Gebruiker" when "user" would do, and the rest of the function name is english anyway, and arglflail |
| 09:47 | <@abudhabi> | Also Persoon. |
| 09:47 | <@simon_> | McMartin, ML-Flavored Erlang: http://noisycode.com/blog/2016/06/27/introducing-mlfe/ |
| 09:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Heh, I completely missed the double-o there. |
| 09:48 | <@TheWatcher> | And how much do you want to bet that "hfpPersoonId" unpacks to "hfpersoonPersoonId"~ |
| 09:54 | <@simon_> | Persoon must be the middle-thing between a Person and a Baboon. |
| 09:55 | <@simon_> | also, that reminds me of horrible pre-university web-coding times where I'd mix Danish and English in comments, function names and variable names. horrible! |
| 09:56 | <@TheWatcher> | simon_: persoon is dutch for person, so~ |
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| 10:12 | <&[R]> | Also as someone else pointed out: function "create[s] or delete[s]", but it only has one param... |
| 10:12 | <@ErikMesoy> | clearly there's a global variable to create or delete that's set by the function calling this function, amirite? |
| 10:12 | <@abudhabi> | If there is such as Id, delete it. If there isn't, create it. |
| 10:13 | <&[R]> | <Nomikos> for starters it's not the id of the object it sits on, but a field value. and it can be current OR the previous fieldvalue |
| 10:13 | <&[R]> | <Nomikos> for some bizarre reason the previous one takes precedence <Nomikos> the object is type 'user'. if it can't find an appropriate user role, it's deleted <Nomikos> if there are more than one, the first one is kept and the rest are deleted |
| 10:13 | <&[R]> | <Nomikos> else, if there aren't any, one is created. in any case, it's saved with the old/previous $hfpPersoonId again <Nomikos> and it sends an email with password <Nomikos> on some clause, that last |
| 10:13 | <&[R]> | <Nomikos> and - I have no idea - this method is called from the completely generic 'getUser' method |
| 10:21 | | * TheWatcher EYES coworker |
| 10:22 | <@TheWatcher> | how do you "accidentally" delete a fucking github repository, seriously |
| 10:22 | <@TheWatcher> | It has a honking great "ARE YOU REALLY BLOODY SURE YOU WANT TO DO THIS?!" dialog you need to type the sodding repository name into |
| 10:23 | <@TheWatcher> | This is not a casual "Press button, receive /dev/null" situation here |
| 10:23 | <@abudhabi> | "Some technical bullshit happened, you need to type the repository name to proceed". |
| 10:25 | <@TheWatcher> | I'd grant that, except have you ever deleted a github project? |
| 10:25 | <@TheWatcher> | It's pretty clear, simple, and explicit about what you are about to do. |
| 10:36 | <@abudhabi> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy |
| 10:39 | <@ErikMesoy> | http://i.imgur.com/H0uVqFe.jpg |
| 10:44 | <@abudhabi> | Source? |
| 10:48 | <@ErikMesoy> | https://www.usenix.org/conference/enigma2016/conference-program/presentation/smi th |
| 10:58 | <@abudhabi> | Thanks. |
| 11:01 | <@TheWatcher> | Which reminds me, I need to put "Liliputian snotweasel foxtrot omegaforce" into one of my systems' error messages... |
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| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | TheWatcher: And yet, if you put "Insufficiently Fluffy Kitten Error" into your logs that live in a hidden directory, it will bring in more support calls than any other issue! |
| 21:06 | <@ErikMesoy> | I recall an argument that one's error messages (for wider use programs) *should* contain messages like "Foxtrot Omegaforce" and "Insufficiently Fluffy Kitten" as a means for users to precisely identify to you which error they got. |
| 21:07 | <@Alek> | hrmm. *snickers* |
| 21:07 | <@Alek> | I get into such digressions. |
| 21:07 | <@ErikMesoy> | "There was an error, it had a number three hundred and something" or "There was an error, it said something about memory" is hard to trace. "There was an error, it said something about a squirrel" can pin it down very fast if you know which error message you wrote that had a squirrel. |
| 21:09 | <@Alek> | so I'm reading a javascript intro. talks about the javascript number being 64 bits long, out of which one bit is signed and several mark the decimal point (so the default is obviously a signed float). no various other types (at least so far). |
| 21:10 | <@Alek> | I'm curious and decide to find out just how floats are represented (it hasn't been covered yet in any lessons I've had before). ok, I see a lesson about a 32-bit float, bit of sign, 8 bits of exponent, and 32 of mantissa (the actual digits). |
| 21:10 | <@Alek> | ok, now I'm wondering just how big the javascript exponent and mantissa are. :P |
| 21:11 | <@Alek> | I google that... but only see code to extract the exponent and mantissa from a JS number, not anything that tells me how big they are. <_< |
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| 21:14 | <@Alek> | oh! the float lesson I found actually implies the leading 1, so the mantissa is just the digits post-decimal. :P |
| 21:14 | <@Alek> | that's unbelievably important to know if you're gonna work directly with floats. |
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| 21:21 | < catadroid> | Floats are usually ieee standard representation, but can vary between systems |
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| 21:26 | <@Alek> | lemme guess, ± is a deprecated code for the + over -? |
| 21:40 | <@Alek> | hmm. I'm reading (true ? 1 : 2) as IF true THEN 1 ELSE 2, more or less. |
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| 21:48 | <~Vornicus> | should still be active, it's in w3's active list: ± ± ± |
| 21:48 | <~Vornicus> | https://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/charref |
| 21:51 | <@Alek> | Vorn: *shrugs* it's displaying as just the code, not the symbol, in the lesson page. |
| 21:51 | <@Alek> | Chrome, if that matters. |
| 21:52 | <@Alek> | hmm. short circuiting logical operators, now I'm wondering what happens if both the right and left value around || or && are empty. |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | 13:06 <@ErikMesoy> I recall an argument that one's error messages (for wider use programs) *should* contain messages like "Foxtrot Omegaforce" and "Insufficiently Fluffy Kitten" as a means for users to precisely identify to you which error they got. |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | This is actually true, but that wasn't the intention for this one |
| 21:52 | <@Alek> | and if you can, say, go "valuex" || "valuey" || "valuez" and what that would do |
| 21:53 | <@Reiv> | I like those error messages |
| 21:53 | <@Reiv> | So long as you have methods of keeping them identifiable |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | We had a feature that was mostly-implemented but disabled and which we didn't want to admit existed, but which could still possibly cause issues |
| 21:53 | <@Reiv> | You'd almost need a procgen system, or possibly a hash table |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | So log messages from that system were modified to refer to kitten fluffiness instead |
| 21:53 | <@Reiv> | A lookup table somewhere so you don't have two adorable kitten errors by accident, etc |
| 21:53 | <@Reiv> | Excellent |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | Also put under "VERBOSE" log level in the logs in the hidden directory that no user would care about |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | We got SO MANY CALLS about the kittens |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | "Relax, kittens are harmless" |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | Speaking of procgen systems, pretty sure that's how gfycat comes up with its URLs |
| 21:54 | <@Alek> | a lookup table that translates 4 0 4 into "insufficiently" "fluffy" "kitten" hmmm. yeah, makes sense. |
| 21:55 | <@ErikMesoy> | Reiv: a hash sounds like a terrible idea that will get you partly overlapping messages, missing the point |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | Alek: If you are unaware of https://http.cat you have a good time ahead |
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| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | These kittens are however all sufficiently fluffy |
| 21:55 | <@Alek> | I love it. :D |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | I think https://http.cat/416 is my favorite |
| 21:57 | <@Alek> | here's some insufficiently fluffy kittens: http://www.sphynxoutaouais.ca/images/background%20color%20implimentation.png |
| 21:57 | <&McMartin> | Aww |
| 21:57 | <&McMartin> | Fluffiness wasn't in their spec, you can't blame them for that |
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| 22:51 | <@abudhabi> | http://coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ |
| 23:01 | <@ErikMesoy> | [+1] |
| 23:01 | <@TheWatcher> | Quite. |
| 23:06 | <@TheWatcher> | (I could rant about the state of computer science teaching in schools here even now, but I don't have the energy) |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | (I'm a computer scientist at the highest level. I'm going to pull rank here and say that being a computer scientist is only coincidentally related to being able to use a computer.) |
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| 23:20 | <~Vornicus> | yeah, seriously |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | One of his examples of "can't use a computer" involves laptops having a physical switch that you can hit to turn off the networking hardware. I never encountered that until I'd held a degree for four years. |
| 23:22 | <~Vornicus> | The closest I get to "using a computer" when doing programming, other than, you know, copious use of Google, is futzing with Excel |
| 23:22 | <~Vornicus> | and my Excel prowess is freakshow level |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | "My first PC was an ESCOM P100 with Windows 3.1." |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | > GODDAMN HIPPIE KIDS, EXIT LAWN |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | But that's kind of interesting because... |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | "Windows 7 was a game changer for me. It was the first time I'd installed an OS and had literally nothing to configure." |
| 23:26 | <@ErikMesoy> | I don't remember the model, but my first PC was at least black and white. Do I get credit for that? :p |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | The thing that's odd about this is of course the idea of *installing an OS* was kind of silly back in the 8-bit era |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | You turn the damn thing on and you're at a prompt. What else is there? |
| 23:27 | <~Vornicus> | my first pc-pc was the machine I got when I went to college |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | Or you put the disk in the drive and off you go |
| 23:28 | <&McMartin> | This is a place where the late 1980s/early 1990s were a step *back* |
| 23:31 | <&McMartin> | I'm a little skeptical of these sorts of articles anyway because I want to interpret them as something like "we could have stopped the rise of Hitler if only more of us were ham radio operators" |
| 23:31 | <&McMartin> | Look at all these people sitting around *listening* to the radio instead of building their own towers |
| 23:31 | <&McMartin> | Most of them don't even know Morse! |
| 23:32 | <@ErikMesoy> | how about "we could have stopped the Eternal September" as a more achievable goal? |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | ... no, that's literally admitting defeat |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | Remember what caused the original Septembers |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | It was people entering digital society |
| 23:32 | <@ErikMesoy> | In school-year waves |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | Back when the only way to do it was to go to university |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | That's saying "fuck having a Global Internet" |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | "Keep it a toy for the elites" |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | No thank you |
| 23:33 | <@ErikMesoy> | um |
| 23:33 | <@ErikMesoy> | that is not what I meant |
| 23:34 | <&McMartin> | It's not what you meant, but my thesis is that this follows inexorably from the sentiment |
| 23:34 | <&McMartin> | And therefore that sentiment has to be resisted |
| 23:34 | <@ErikMesoy> | well how about I interpret your sentiment as inexorabiliously leading to "I want to live in Apple's walled garden" then >:/ |
| 23:35 | <&McMartin> | I'm willing to consider that as a legitimate criticism, but you're not accusing me of enough sneering elitism here |
| 23:35 | <&McMartin> | The position I should be considering is "doesn't this argument mean that the masses need to stay in their pens" |
| 23:36 | <&McMartin> | My initial reaction to that is "Hmmm. I think that's technically still a step up from keeping them out of the digital world entirely" |
| 23:36 | <&McMartin> | The question then is "But is it a step up from status quo[*]" |
| 23:36 | <@ErikMesoy> | how about, if there had been actual *training* in place at the universities, rather than "here is internet" followed by "how do I internet", Eternal September could have been mitigated by more rapidly and less disruptively assimilating people into, and creating a larger, veteran class |
| 23:36 | <&McMartin> | "[*] Status quo includes those walled gardens now which have not exactly been doing a bang-up job there" |
| 23:36 | <@ErikMesoy> | which then in turn can handle a larger influx of newbies, repeat |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | Hrm |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | So, like, I know we like to pretend they don't exist, but |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | What about people who do not go to University |
| 23:37 | <@ErikMesoy> | do you mean: stupid people? |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | Let's pretend I mean plumbers. |
| 23:37 | <@ErikMesoy> | Like, I know we like to pretend those two are the same, but :P |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | And no |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | I literally meant university, because it was specifically university waves that caused Septembers in september |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | Not HS graduations |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | I'm not using that as a proxy for intelligence, as five minutes with the average freshman will confirm |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | I *may* be unconsciously using it as a proxy for social class, but I'm trying not to |
| 23:39 | <@ErikMesoy> | I don't have an entire alt-history in mind, but at least part of the mitigation I envision involves spreading the How To Internet widely enough through universities and propagating faster enough that there's a large veteran class which both absorbs large amounts of plumbers easily, and teaches those plumbers *socially* as a result of personal life contact |
| 23:39 | <&McMartin> | OK |
| 23:40 | <&McMartin> | Our visions differ, I think, because my vision in that circumstance ends up looking more like "technological priesthood" rather than the goal of, uh, "universal lay clergy" |
| 23:40 | <&McMartin> | This is not the greatest metaphor, I admit |
| 23:40 | <&McMartin> | But pushing a bad analogy further |
| 23:40 | <@ErikMesoy> | Plumbers remembering "that stuff my cousin told me" when they bungle into usenet, rather than just having more AOL CDs than clues |
| 23:41 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 23:42 | <&McMartin> | Actually, the notion of hackers/recreational coders as this generation's version of ham radio is an analogy that I only recently found and that hit me pretty hard |
| 23:42 | <&McMartin> | And, uh, now that WiFi is a thing, they're starting to interact again, but~ |
| 23:42 | <@ErikMesoy> | that church analogy is too stretched for me to try to comment usefully on it directly. |
| 23:42 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, as I said |
| 23:43 | <&McMartin> | Like, I can push it even further, and say that the question is what to do about churchgoers, which is an implication that churchgoers are the problem |
| 23:43 | <&McMartin> | ... which produces a similar level of dissonance for me, but that's about as far as I'm willing to take that~ |
| 23:43 | <@ErikMesoy> | I really want parts of *both* the Global Internet and the Toy For Elites |
| 23:44 | <@ErikMesoy> | I guess obscure-as-hell protocols like IRC are to some extent a way of getting the latter filtered. >_> |
| 23:44 | <&McMartin> | More seriously, the issue here is that everyone is a newbie at some point, and "The September That Never Ended" AIUI refers to the fact that the Internet became a big enough thing that waves of university enrollments no longer became the dominant source thereof |
| 23:44 | <@ErikMesoy> | But I think there is merit in an explicit, overt tier system involved |
| 23:44 | <&McMartin> | Wait, doesn't this lead to the position you caricatured as "leave everyone in the walled garden"? |
| 23:45 | <&McMartin> | I mean, if "yes", then this is part of that tiering, isn't it |
| 23:45 | <&McMartin> | In which case I can see it as part of it |
| 23:45 | <&McMartin> | It's gotta be *part* of it |
| 23:45 | <&McMartin> | If nothing else, code signing provides value =P |
| 23:45 | <@ErikMesoy> | In theory, it's nice that everything is connected and so forth, but on the other hand, I want to question the assumption that YouTube Comment Section needs to be treated as an equal |
| 23:46 | <@ErikMesoy> | "Don't read the comment section" is a running gag. moderation is a thankless job from hell. spam and spam filters are huge business |
| 23:46 | <&McMartin> | I don't consider "people get to comment on YouTube" as a problem, since I'm part of the elite that can turn off comment views |
| 23:47 | <&McMartin> | Mmm |
| 23:47 | <&McMartin> | That sounds like the old world is a place where the entire visible world is your clique |
| 23:47 | <&McMartin> | You just need cliquing tools, then |
| 23:47 | <@ErikMesoy> | it's not just youtube comment section, it's the wider issue that there is so much unfiltered crap and band-aid filters slapped on as patches after the fact |
| 23:47 | <&McMartin> | Mmmm. |
| 23:48 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, we really are considering different aspects of the nascent digital society as the problem here |
| 23:48 | <&McMartin> | (I'm of the position that all those people were already out there being awful anyway and now it's harder to pretend they don't exist; the dangers arise from the extra power this gives to actively bad actors) |
| 23:49 | <@ErikMesoy> | Well, "they" weren't out there being *coherently* awful as a they |
| 23:49 | <@ErikMesoy> | it's partly bad actors, and partly "those people" finding each other |
| 23:50 | <@ErikMesoy> | it's like the difference between a thousand elephants existing somewhere in Africa, and a thousand wild elephants stampeding past your house |
| 23:51 | <@ErikMesoy> | I don't want to pretend they don't exist, I want them to go back to the metaphorical savannah and I want to throw out the global neighborhood metaphor where I live metaphorically next to every elephant |
| 23:51 | <@ErikMesoy> | They can exist just fine |
| 23:51 | <&McMartin> | The traditional solution for that is to build a fence around your yard, right |
| 23:52 | <&McMartin> | In that analogy, the part I'm concerned with is that anyone in the world can causally drill through your fence and walk off with your patio chairs |
| 23:53 | <@ErikMesoy> | only fences on the internet (like so much of digital society, in particular passwords) are not human-shaped or refined to be human-adapted and are terrible metaphors |
| 23:53 | <&McMartin> | *casually |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jun 30 00:00:12 2016 |