| --- Log opened Mon May 16 00:00:08 2016 |
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| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | Man, this really has no excuse to work |
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| 03:04 | | * McMartin mixes X-Wing with Haskell, for, he guesses, Great Good. |
| 03:05 | < Reiv_> | ... thefuck you doing, you crazy person |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | So. |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | Learn You A Haskell For Great Good! is not really a great tutorial for learning the langaueg, but it was recommended to me as a way to get a mental grip on Monads and their related friends in abstract algebra |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | A field in which I had trained previously but had not seen any relationship to monads as I knew them |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | It turns out that is mostly because what I learned as monads Haskell knew as monoids. |
| 03:06 | < Reiv_> | Is that 'rhymes with mongoloid' or 'mono id, we nicked the whitespace for use in Python' |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | The former |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | This is a term from Math |
| 03:07 | < Reiv_> | aha |
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| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, they have a number of motivating examples, one of which is partially developed and involves assigning probabilities to a list of cases |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | And then squinting at it *really hard* until it looks like something you could do map-reduce on |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | That gets me as far as "applicative functors", which turn out to be The Business |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | And in order to get interesting results, one would ideally like some kind of repeatable set of probabilities that nevertheless aren't equally probable |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | And what better thing than X-Wing dice |
| 03:08 | < Reiv_> | ahahaha |
| 03:08 | < Reiv_> | Perfection |
| 03:09 | <&McMartin> | Now I have a motivation to do my exercises |
| 03:09 | < Reiv_> | If you want any help or Interesting Wrinkles, you better believe I can come up with examples |
| 03:10 | <&McMartin> | Right now I'm just at "push button, watch explode, tweak" |
| 03:10 | <&McMartin> | But then I did the thing that didn't explode and it "shouldn't have known to do that" |
| 03:10 | <&McMartin> | But of course it does |
| 03:10 | <&McMartin> | So I have to work through it until I understand what it is doing. |
| 03:13 | <&McMartin> | I'm not convinced there's new power here the way learning about higher-order functions gives you new power if you only knew Java before |
| 03:14 | <&McMartin> | But we'll see |
| 03:15 | < catadroid> | The thing about the IO monad that gets me in particular that no one ever mentions is it is a compile time trick to prevent the compiler from evaluating a function |
| 03:15 | < catadroid> | Until runtime |
| 03:15 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 03:15 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, the part of monadry I'm trying to grasp here is the part where the IO monad is the boring one |
| 03:15 | <&McMartin> | Because it doesn't *do* anything other than "yeah, stuff happens in order, hooray" |
| 03:16 | < catadroid> | And yet people talk as though it's the messiah |
| 03:16 | <&McMartin> | ... I have seen a glimpse of why |
| 03:16 | <&McMartin> | but so far I only have it at the level of "you can generalize map-reduce even more" |
| 03:17 | <&McMartin> | "You need to squint harder." |
| 03:17 | <&McMartin> | "No, harder." |
| 03:17 | <&McMartin> | "Harder than that." |
| 03:17 | < catadroid> | Monads make sense as an abstraction to me |
| 03:17 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I'm not there yet :) |
| 03:17 | < catadroid> | But I don't understand the mathematical specifics |
| 03:17 | <&McMartin> | I type do { d1 <- attack; d2 <- attack; return (d1, d2) } and get back a complete list of die rolls with associated probabilities |
| 03:17 | <&McMartin> | And I haven't worked out what I just said that means that. |
| 03:17 | < catadroid> | You're likely further than I am |
| 03:18 | <&McMartin> | I can do the syntactic transforms, but I don't grasp it the way I want to |
| 03:18 | <&McMartin> | Every time I look at it more, the picture gets more complex |
| 03:18 | <&McMartin> | But I can see that I will eventually hit a point where the more I learn the simpler it gets, instead. |
| 03:18 | <&McMartin> | That's where the messianic tradition comes in, I strongly suspect~ |
| 03:18 | < catadroid> | Heh |
| 03:19 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, I've now written some programs that are part copying simple things I understand |
| 03:19 | <&McMartin> | And then writing something that makes sense if I squint at it that I could be asking for something, implicitly |
| 03:19 | < catadroid> | I do find it amusing that explaining monads is an almost perfect storm in terms of how not to explain things |
| 03:19 | <&McMartin> | But then it knows that and gets the right answer and I'm still at the point where I just gape and shout "OMG WITCHALOCKS" |
| 03:19 | <&McMartin> | Also my laptop power is now at 15%, so I fear I must bow out for a bit |
| 03:19 | < catadroid> | And, more amusingly, that betrays an amazing misunderstanding of how human minds apply abstraction and generalise |
| 03:20 | <&McMartin> | So, the book I'm reading to get a handle on this has helped a lot |
| 03:20 | <&McMartin> | But it wants to be an introduction and I'm reading it after having already written 5,000 lines of Haskell in various programs |
| 03:20 | <&McMartin> | I think I needed that 5KLOC to get it enough to grasp the rest of this |
| 03:20 | <&McMartin> | Also I now understand why Rust traits fell down where Haskell typeclasses did not |
| 03:21 | <&McMartin> | But not enough to know if that's a trivial fix to Rust or a "back to formula" kind of thing |
| 03:21 | <&McMartin> | And now, powerdown |
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| 03:33 | < simon_> | fun fact: Edward Kmett became the 5th most contributing user on GitHub at some point when extending the collection of Haskell's libraries. |
| 03:44 | <&McMartin> | Hah |
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| 05:36 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: 2+2+3+1 for reds, 3+2+3 for greens; standard rule mods include reroll any, reroll /all/, eyes-to-results, one-eye-to-crit, reroll blanks, reroll eyes, and Change Results(tm). |
| 05:37 | <&McMartin> | I'm ignoring rerolls |
| 05:37 | <&McMartin> | I'm not building a real dice simulator |
| 05:37 | <&McMartin> | In the sense of All The Cards |
| 05:38 | <&McMartin> | I'm using a funny d8 to test various kinds of higher-order functions |
| 05:38 | <@Reiv> | That's fine |
| 05:38 | <@Reiv> | I was mentioning these as Fun Things To Consider |
| 05:39 | <@Reiv> | Actually my favourite funky ability mathwise of late is the pilot Zuckuss: You may roll one extra red die if you let the opponent roll one extra green. |
| 05:39 | <@Reiv> | This is of course marginally better because the red has an extra hit on it |
| 05:39 | <&McMartin> | Meanwhile, I seem to be unable to import my own modules. |
| 05:39 | <@Reiv> | But it's better than that because it is /much/ better when you realise you can modify the shit out of red dice, while greens are more limited |
| 05:39 | <&McMartin> | Except in the interactive mode, where it is fine |
| 05:40 | <@Reiv> | ... and he came in the same expansion pack that lets you ionise yourself in return for preventing the enemy from spending 1 designated token on defense, and choose to do so after you've seen their results. |
| 05:41 | <@Reiv> | "OK, so that means I throw four dice with rerolls and focus, so that's... 3 hits. Now you roll your usual three, plus one extra ... oh, you got three eyeballs and a blank? Yeah, I'm ionising, and you're not spending your Focus token. Have three damage. <3" |
| 05:43 | <&McMartin> | right, OK, there. |
| 05:43 | | * McMartin grmbl |
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| 06:15 | <&McMartin> | Argh, what the fuck, Emacs |
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| 06:15 | <&McMartin> | Literally every time I hit enter you are opening the Customize window |
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| 06:31 | < simon_> | McMartin, what gave were you and Reiv talking about? |
| 06:43 | <&McMartin> | The X-Wing miniatures wargame |
| 06:49 | < simon_> | ah. |
| 06:49 | <&McMartin> | *XwMinis> head $ getProb $ roll 4 defenseDie |
| 06:49 | <&McMartin> | ([Blank,Blank,Blank,Blank],81 % 4096) |
| 06:52 | <&McMartin> | Also, since I'm new at this |
| 06:52 | < simon_> | I was playing Full Thrust a while back |
| 06:52 | <&McMartin> | If I have a function of type (Monad m) => m a -> m b |
| 06:53 | <&McMartin> | Then it really has no place inside a do block, does it |
| 06:54 | <&McMartin> | Except if it's accidentally valid to say b <- f a |
| 06:54 | < simon_> | right |
| 06:54 | < simon_> | if the do-block has type m b, then that's a common pattern |
| 06:55 | < simon_> | but more often you'd see Monad m => a -> m b |
| 06:55 | < simon_> | I think |
| 06:55 | < simon_> | e.g. putStrLn :: String -> IO () |
| 06:55 | <&McMartin> | Right, so, my "roll" function there included a branch which started with collateProb $ fmap sort $ do |
| 06:56 | <&McMartin> | This exercise has been mainly, for me, about puttering about with monads that aren't the I/O monad |
| 06:56 | < simon_> | probabilities and monads are pretty cool, too |
| 06:57 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I started with the stuff about a custom probability monad in Learn You A Haskell and just started expanding it |
| 06:57 | <&McMartin> | starting with making it an applicative functor, which was actually hilarious |
| 06:57 | <&McMartin> | And then trying to do this "OK, can I represent die rolls" |
| 06:57 | <&McMartin> | -> "OK, how about with dice that are more fun than normal dice, with different probabilities for various results" |
| 06:57 | <&McMartin> | -> "X-Wing attack and defense dice cover that use case neatly" |
| 07:00 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, you're right about the signatures. The signature for (>>=) means that you can only really do something of the form "b <- f a" if f has a signature (Monad m) => a -> m b |
| 07:01 | <&McMartin> | The non-collating version of roll is basically roll i d = if i < 1 then return [] else do { x <- d; y <- roll (i-1) d; return x:y } |
| 07:01 | < simon_> | there's a pretty cool talk by Dan Piponi about abusing Haskell's do-syntax for solving various problems by overloading (>>=) |
| 07:01 | < simon_> | https://vimeo.com/6590617 |
| 07:02 | <&McMartin> | Fun |
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| 12:24 | | * TheWatcher eyes this code |
| 12:30 | <@TheWatcher> | I get that some people like to stick rigidly to the "single exit point" paradigm, but when combined with vehement avoidance of goto it just gets horrible really quickly.. |
| 12:42 | < catadroid`> | Yup |
| 12:43 | < catadroid`> | I tend to prefer keeping code with as few indents as possible |
| 12:43 | < catadroid`> | Which is often the antithesis |
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| 16:54 | < catadroid> | Well |
| 16:55 | < catadroid> | I wrote my part of the proposal |
| 16:55 | < catadroid> | Let's see if we actually have a process or if someone is just bullshitting |
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| 20:44 | <&McMartin> | 08:55 < catadroid> Let's see if we actually have a process or if someone is just bullshitting |
| 20:44 | <&McMartin> | This is the best sentence I have seen today |
| 20:56 | < catalyst> | Hm? |
| 20:56 | < catalyst> | heh |
| 21:40 | <&McMartin> | attn me: http://monster6502.com/ |
| 21:40 | <&McMartin> | also of note: the transistor count |
| 21:45 | <@TheWatcher> | "Are you nuts? Probably." |
| 21:45 | <@TheWatcher> | Objection! |
| 21:45 | <@TheWatcher> | There's no "probably" there >.> |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | I also like "Is there going to be a soldering kit version of this? No. (But on the other hand, anything is a soldering kit if you're brave enough!)" |
| 21:47 | | * TheWatcher forwards that to one of the hardware guys in work |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, they're showing that off *here*, *this weekend* |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | A weekend in which I already have plans, but oh well~ |
| 21:58 | <@Alek> | hmm. |
| 21:58 | <@Alek> | call me when they have a full-speed version I can put together at home. <_< |
| 21:59 | <@Alek> | those flash-based emulated games online SUCK. |
| 22:00 | <@Alek> | the games I've tried either don't run at all, glitch out, or aren't emulated yet. |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | ... are these statements connected? If so, VICE has you covered |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | VICE will run demoscene madness at full-speed and full accuracy |
| 22:01 | <@Alek> | I'm not even talking demoscene, I'm talking regular Apple ][ games. |
| 22:01 | <@Alek> | I've only tried a few, from my favorites when I had one. |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, Commodore dudes are better~ |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | That said, IIe or IIgs |
| 22:01 | <@Alek> | Moebius, notably. doesn't work. |
| 22:02 | | * Alek never managed to get past the halfway point, because he accidentally overwrote the backside of the disk early on, not knowing that that's where part 2 of the game was. |
| 22:02 | <@Alek> | anyway. there's a lot of disk swap in Moebius, and that's probably what the emulation chokes on. |
| 22:04 | <&McMartin> | OK, Apple II emulation is a bit more primitive because it relies on rather than struggles against the sterange artifacts of standard definition television |
| 22:04 | <&McMartin> | But AppleWin should be good enough to handle disk swapping. |
| 22:05 | <@Alek> | it also relies on hardware quirks for timing, so uh. |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | Welcome to *everything*. |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | That's really easy |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | That's what it means to be cycle-accurate |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | Every credible 8-bit emu is at least that good these days. |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | (Without it, an Atari emu can't even produce a picture) |
| 22:10 | | * TheWatcher ponders what to call the replacement for his 'tardis' backup system, is vaguely tempted to call it 'titor' |
| 22:13 | | * Alek snickers, was thinking of console emulators a decade ago. |
| 22:13 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:14 | | * Vornicus looks up 8-bit emu, is disappointed |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | This is a place where the C64 emulation was miles ahead of everyone else, with NES coming up behind and then Atari becoming feasible noticably later |
| 22:14 | <~Vornicus> | not enough actual emus, and no 8-bit emus at all. |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | Boo! |
| 22:14 | <@Alek> | I think it was Might and Magic 2 on Genesis that had a default backup that you needed to use the battery to load from, and the emulated rom did NOT include that default backup. |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, I think the last widely-used non-cycle-accurate NES emulator was Nesticle |
| 22:15 | <&McMartin> | Which was pretty awful for anything that needed, well, a lot of things |
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| 22:15 | <~Vornicus> | http://i.imgur.com/gCSrPKd.png?2 this is the closest I get but I needed to do "pixel art emu -emulator" to get it |
| 22:15 | <&McMartin> | Anyway. AppleWin is a solid IIe emulator and it has a hotkey for disk swapping |
| 22:15 | <~Vornicus> | that's actually from Starbound. |
| 22:16 | <&McMartin> | The only halfway reasonable IIgs emulator I've used is KEGS32, and it's not *that* reasonable :/ |
| 22:17 | <@Alek> | how about a ][c emu? although I dunno, maybe Moebius can run on a IIe. |
| 22:17 | <@Alek> | but meh, doesn't really matter right now. |
| 22:17 | <@Alek> | I can't get up the enthusiasm for OLD games these days. |
| 22:19 | <@Alek> | hm. I am REALLY looking forward to the VR renaissance, though. |
| 22:20 | <@Alek> | games like Portal and even lesser-known ones like Twin Sector or what was that psi-ops game, should have a resurgence in popularity with VR. not just shooters and 3D modeling/design. |
| 22:22 | <~Vornicus> | portal in vr sounds frightening |
| 22:22 | <@Tamber> | Nauseating, mostly. |
| 22:22 | <@Tamber> | (er, that is, that's how it sounds to me. Haven't tried it, am not planning on it.) |
| 22:23 | <&McMartin> | ISTR that a properly expanded IIe was the equivalent of a IIc in all ways |
| 22:26 | <@Alek> | well, nauseating, maybe, but I'd like to be able to aim more naturally than moving my mouse to an arbitrary point. XD |
| 22:26 | <@Alek> | even if it could take longer. <_< |
| 22:26 | <~Vornicus> | the wii u gamepad wrecks *everything* when it comes to aiming. |
| 22:26 | <@Alek> | but if they implement sight tracking, that would be amazing. |
| 22:26 | <@Alek> | haven't tried it, Vorn. |
| 22:28 | <@Alek> | but for me, I dunno that VR aiming would be any more nauseating than near-random high-speed mouse aiming. -_- |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | Having used the Vive |
| 22:28 | <@Alek> | and that's what it comes down to in expert-mode Portal-type games and FPS games, especially PVP. |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | The problem isn't aiming, which is fine; we seem to have basically solved the head-motion thing |
| 22:29 | <&McMartin> | The problem is *motion* |
| 22:29 | <&McMartin> | Either you are on rails, or you move by teleport-hops |
| 22:29 | | * Alek tried the Gear VR, dad got one free with his new phone. too bad it won't work with MY phone. :/ |
| 22:29 | <&McMartin> | Gear VR is... not as good |
| 22:29 | <@Alek> | McM: fair point. |
| 22:29 | <&McMartin> | Better than I'd expect, but an application limited enough I don't see it being that useful except for certain kinds of content, none of which are games |
| 22:29 | <~Vornicus> | and teleport-hops wasn't really acceptable by the time Myst 3 came out. |
| 22:30 | <@Alek> | it's pretty though. I would want the next Note (assuming it's compatible) just for that. |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, yeah |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | I have been convinced that VR is actually enthusaist-scale "here" now, in a way that previous experiments were not |
| 22:30 | <@Alek> | there's games you don't have to move around as much in. |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 22:30 | <@Alek> | turret shooters just for starters. |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | But shooters aren't those games~ |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, turret shooters and racers are the big things out there now |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Also tilt brush |
| 22:30 | <@Alek> | tilt what? |
| 22:31 | <&McMartin> | It's MS Paint but (a) by google and (b) in a VR 3D space |
| 22:31 | <@Alek> | hahaha |
| 22:31 | <@Alek> | I saw a demo video of a VR graffiti game. |
| 22:31 | <@Alek> | tagging in VR. |
| 22:31 | <&McMartin> | It's the thing you show visitors because it's instantly accessible and a solid sense of presence |
| 22:33 | <@Alek> | hm. "point and click" style adventures in 3D are also in play. literally the first game in the Gear VR catalog is an ESP detective game. |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | Myst III, as noted above |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | There's some very cool non-game stuff that isn't there *yet* but which I can see advancing to it |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | VR tourism |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | Sports broadcasts |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | There's some prototype stuff for that even for gear, but the seams between the cameras are *really* obvious still. |
| 22:55 | <@TheWatcher> | I just wish they'd get a move on and make usable, decent resolution, full-field transparent screens, so I could make my damned 3D holographic 'whiteboard' already. |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | We still don't have an acceptable solution for gorilla arm. :P |
| 22:59 | <@TheWatcher> | No, but considering how much time I spend using a boring 2D whiteboard anyway? Meh. |
| 23:00 | <@TheWatcher> | I'd rather be able to actually get the damned 3rd dimension that I need to make some of my diagrams work. |
| 23:07 | <~Vornicus> | (myst 3 used teleport hops) |
| 23:07 | <~Vornicus> | (it was awful.) |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | Mmmn |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | so, first, this isn't that, it's click to teleport in a 3D space |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | This turns out to be less disorienting in VR than a WASD-like control |
| 23:20 | | thalass_ [thalass@Nightstar-283.o7s.158.104.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:21 | <@gnolam> | -*- TheWatcher ponders what to call the replacement for his 'tardis' backup system, is vaguely tempted to call it 'titor' |
| 23:21 | <@gnolam> | Do eeeeeeeeeeeeeeet |
| --- Log closed Tue May 17 00:00:24 2016 |