| --- Log opened Mon Apr 04 00:00:41 2016 |
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| 07:47 | < abudhabi> | Perhaps I should take shorter vacations. |
| 07:47 | < abudhabi> | I have no idea what I was doing before I left. |
| 07:58 | <@Alek> | hrm. Learn X The Hard Way doesn't have Javascript. yet. |
| 08:01 | < abudhabi> | Looks like you'll have to learn JS the hard way, then. |
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| 10:20 | < [R]> | Alek: have a project in mind to try learning it? |
| 10:21 | < [R]> | If you need a resource though, the MDN is a great reference. |
| 10:24 | < Emmy> | msdn? |
| 10:24 | < abudhabi> | I've found "JavaScript: The Good Parts" to be a pretty good book on JS. |
| 10:24 | < abudhabi> | Learning JS is hindered by the fact that much of JS is insane. |
| 10:24 | < [R]> | MSDN is shit |
| 10:24 | < [R]> | MDN is good. |
| 10:25 | < [R]> | https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript |
| 10:26 | < Emmy> | ah, yea, msdn probably isn't a good place for JS |
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| 10:44 | | * Emmy considers getting a M$ MOS certificate |
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| 16:31 | < abudhabi> | Welp. Turkey is truly online now. |
| 16:33 | <@gnolam> | ? |
| 16:34 | < abudhabi> | http://185.100.87.84/ |
| 16:35 | < [R]> | " Lessons for the US? We really shouldn't elect Trump, that guy sounds like he knows even less about running a country than Erdogan does." |
| 16:39 | < Emmy> | ? |
| 16:39 | < abudhabi> | As if Erdogan or Trump have anything to do with their respective information architectures. |
| 16:40 | < Emmy> | also, in erdogan's defense, he knows full well how to run a country, and does so. |
| 16:40 | < Emmy> | the problem is, he does so as a self-obsessed religious dictator. |
| 16:40 | < abudhabi> | I sincerely doubt any president knows how encryption works, or that he needs to know. |
| 16:46 | < Emmy> | Well, I'd suspect the president of an encryption company would |
| 16:52 | | * [R] pats Emmy |
| 16:53 | < [R]> | I like how you believe that leaders of tech companies know tech. |
| 16:53 | < Emmy> | *should |
| 16:53 | < [R]> | Keep that optimism. |
| 16:55 | < Emmy> | I'm an optimist! :) |
| 16:55 | < Emmy> | then again, so was hitler. :P |
| 16:57 | < [R]> | So you're saying you're 100% likely to be a jew-hater? Have you always hated jews? What about capitalism? Do you want to destroy the US' glorious capitalism with the communism you call socialism? |
| 16:57 | < Emmy> | 1. no, 2. no, 3. no, 4. yes |
| 16:57 | < Emmy> | :P |
| 16:58 | < [R]> | Good. You and I are friends now. |
| 17:21 | < Emmy> | hehehe :P |
| 17:28 | < Emmy> | [R]: so, what's your stance on doomsday devices? >:P |
| 17:30 | < crystalclaw> | Emmy: Test it, then release it to the public, except for that /one secret/ that makes it work :P |
| 17:30 | < crystalclaw> | On that note, i'm going to take a nape |
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| 17:30 | < Emmy> | Ah, so you're in favour of partial open source, eh? |
| 17:30 | < Emmy> | also, what test target? :P |
| 17:32 | < [R]> | Trump's house? |
| 17:33 | < Emmy> | Proivided he's home :P |
| 17:36 | <@ErikMesoy> | Ah, trying to assassinate the god-emperor before he grows into the fullness of his power, eh? |
| 17:40 | < Emmy> | 'assasinate' |
| 17:41 | < Emmy> | i was thinking more of the words 'sacrificial slaughter' |
| 17:41 | < Emmy> | :P |
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| 19:59 | < crystalclaw> | Ugh. I hate it when I hack together some code I expect to use once, then realize I have to actually /do/ something with it and spend tons of time making it work in the new situation :/ |
| 20:00 | <&jeroud> | Yay refactoring. |
| 20:00 | < crystalclaw> | spagetti code :/ |
| 20:00 | <&jeroud> | I generally write pretty much any code in a modular reusable manner. |
| 20:01 | < crystalclaw> | Something I expected to be a one off, that I originally wrote directly in the python shell before it became too long, now needs to be run on a cron job on my server :/ |
| 20:01 | <&jeroud> | Out of habit and because my working memory capacity is very small. |
| 20:02 | < crystalclaw> | I was also tired, it was 1 in the morning when I wrote it |
| 20:02 | <&jeroud> | cron jobs. ;_; |
| 20:03 | <&jeroud> | My day job at the moment is all about infrastructure automation. |
| 20:03 | < crystalclaw> | oooh. fun. |
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| 20:04 | <&jeroud> | cron jobs are terrible because they assume you have a single machine that runs them. |
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| 20:05 | < crystalclaw> | oh, I never even thought about that. Scaling to multiple machines with shared resources must be a PITA |
| 20:05 | < crystalclaw> | Thankfully I have exactly 1 machine to run this on, and that will never change in this case. |
| 20:05 | <&jeroud> | github.com/praekelt/seed-stack is our prototyping VM setup if you're interested. |
| 20:08 | < crystalclaw> | huh. I don't really do anything on even that scale, but I'll keep that in my watched in case I ever feel like going crazy |
| 20:10 | <&jeroud> | This is supposed to scale down as well as up. |
| 20:11 | <&jeroud> | Quite a lot of our work is in the health and government spaces. |
| 20:11 | <&jeroud> | So there are some pretty strict data sovereignty issues. |
| 20:11 | <&jeroud> | And also often budget limitations. |
| 20:12 | < crystalclaw> | I mean, I'm just automatically pulling a translation of a webcomic from github, renaming the files, and generateing some html. |
| 20:12 | < crystalclaw> | Actually, though, that might be useful for some of my other projects |
| 20:13 | <&jeroud> | So one installation might be three racks in a big DC in New York, another might be on some scavenged machines under someone's desk in Kampala. |
| 20:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | At one point most of the pipeline I'm responsible for here was cron jobs, which was...fun. |
| 20:14 | <&jeroud> | (We have actually had our software running in production on a scavenged machine under someone's desk in Kampala, but that was a couple of years ago.) |
| 20:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | Cron jobs are often convenient, but in this case it had something like five moving parts, all of them cron jobs that couldn't directly communicate, when what we really needed was some kind of directed execution graph. |
| 20:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Apropos of hacking together code you expect to only use once, today I had a teammate come to me and say "hey, didn't you write something for decompiling [binary configuration images] into [human-readable configuration language]? I have need of it" |
| 20:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | And, well, yes, I did, it's 700 lines of hideous, barely-commented python that depends on an external script to build one of its libraries because I never expected to need it more than once |
| 20:16 | < crystalclaw> | heh. Any hardcoded paths? |
| 20:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Loads, but fortunately they are paths that hadn't changed in the intervening two years and are unlikely to except in circumstances that change the configuration infrastructure so dramatically that the script would need a complete rewrite anyways. |
| 20:18 | < crystalclaw> | That's good, I suppose, but it still sounds like a bit of a nightmare |
| 20:19 | | * Vornicus is glad he doesn't do that kind of work. |
| 20:20 | <&jeroud> | In related news, test tooling for configuration management systems are many orders of magnitude better than they were last time I did this stuff, but still woefully inadequate. |
| 20:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | crystalclaw: well, yeah, it was something I hacked together in an afternoon for a one-time configuration of ~10k lines of configuration data from an obsolete format |
| 20:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | I wasn't expecting it to ever be needed again because I thought we got it all the first time. |
| 20:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | (to be honest that sort of transformation is actually something I really enjoy doing() |
| 20:24 | <&jeroud> | I wrote a zipfile library in F# last week. |
| 20:25 | <&jeroud> | A primitive one, but still. |
| 20:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | File format wrangling! Also something I enjoy. |
| 20:25 | < crystalclaw> | I'm glad I haven't done anything like that yet |
| 20:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | It is probably not entirely coincidence that I largely lost interest in ss1edit once I finished writing the RES library and map viewer >.> |
| 20:26 | < crystalclaw> | lol |
| 20:26 | <&jeroud> | I enjoy it except when it's unnecessarily Byzantine. |
| 20:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Let me tell you about the LG RES format one of these days~ |
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| 20:27 | | * ToxicFrog heads home, perhaps to work on ttymor's GUI code some more |
| 20:27 | <&jeroud> | Also, this code needs some pretty hefty rearchitecting before I can do the nastier bits. |
| 20:27 | | * Vornicus just wants to data mine and do interactive shit. |
| 20:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | I hate interactive shit and just want to write noninteractive command line programs that do violence to data |
| 20:28 | | * crystalclaw wants to be able to forsee and fix all errors before they happen in his code |
| 20:28 | <~Vornicus> | ...and a pony? |
| 20:29 | < crystalclaw> | Already have those. |
| 20:29 | <~Vornicus> | well shit |
| 20:29 | < crystalclaw> | :P |
| 20:31 | <&McMartin> | I should port Ophis to Python 3, since apparently it otherwise won't run on Xenial. |
| 20:31 | <&McMartin> | OTOH, I need to keep the Python 2 branch, or it wont run on stock OS X. |
| 20:32 | <~Vornicus> | import six |
| 20:33 | <&jeroud> | Supporting both is pretty easy these days unless you're wrangling bytes and unicode a lot. |
| 20:40 | <&McMartin> | This program is designed for the express purpose of byte-wrangling. |
| 20:40 | <&McMartin> | It's an assembler. |
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| 20:40 | <&McMartin> | I've looked into what's necessary before |
| 20:41 | <&McMartin> | It's not *hard*, but it's not trivial. 2to3 only got it 95% of the way there, IIRC. |
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| 21:34 | <@ErikMesoy> | I am currently consulting and doing website testing for the Great Thing of Norway. (Write your own joke. At least we're not Germany, where everything important is a Rat.) It's a surprisingly blobby place with underground tunnels and offices verging on dungeons across and under several streets. |
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| 21:35 | <@ErikMesoy> | It's plagued by the usual levels bureaucracy involved in managing a large sprawling place along with a power center - security cards, checks, various instructions on everything, signing generic NDAs, and I got a map that was printed half upside down. |
| 21:36 | <~Vornicus> | are you allowed to tell use that the map was printed half upside down? |
| 21:36 | <@ErikMesoy> | Yes. |
| 21:36 | <@ErikMesoy> | The roads and geographic features have their text reading one way, the building and entry/exit labels have their text reading the other way. |
| 21:36 | <@ErikMesoy> | Since the map also does not show the underground tunnels that one uses to get from building to building internally and thereby avoid waving security card at fiddlydoors, it is pretty much completely useless. |
| 21:37 | <@gnolam> | :) |
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| 21:40 | <@ErikMesoy> | I am either very, very low-level indeed (which is strange considering all the security checks and my passing a party leader) or else the IT department is pretty much a law unto itself, since it's the sort of place you could drag-and-drop into pretty much any corporate setting and not notice much different. |
| 21:41 | <@ErikMesoy> | Boring assignments come in, nerds swear at computers, results of boring assignments go out. |
| 21:41 | <@ErikMesoy> | Particularly large amounts of swearing were involved in the fact that I got a) a Win8 computer, with b) a touch-sensitive screen, and c) a co-worker who touches my screen when pointing things out. Aaaaaargh. |
| 21:42 | <@gnolam> | Sounds a bit like the underground parts of the local hospital. Which has some /serious/ underground to it, because it was built when we still took civil defense Seriously. Except if there are maps for it, nobody working there now knows about them. I'm pretty sure there are literal forgotten rooms down there. |
| 21:43 | <@ErikMesoy> | I am bad enough with Apple's pinch-zoom-whatever touch interface. Microsoft's touch-interface on a *laptop* (not tablet of any sort, this is a full-fledged keyboard-and-mouse setup) was just bizarre, unpredictable, and frequently doing weird random shit when coworker touched it, particularly if I was doing anything else at the same time. |
| 21:44 | < crystalclaw> | Can you disable it? |
| 21:44 | <@gnolam> | (The room down there in which we stored the Suspicious-Looking Experiment was full of old crates (yes, actual wooden crates!) from SCB, the Swedish Central Bureau of Statistics, that looked like they had lain there untouched since at least the '70s.) |
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| 21:45 | <@ErikMesoy> | crystalclaw: I probably can. I didn't find it in 5 minutes of trying at the time, though, and figured I'd put it off rather than stall on work too much. |
| 21:46 | <~Vornicus> | why was the experiment merely suspicious-looking instead of fully suspicious? Step up your game, man |
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| 21:47 | <@ErikMesoy> | Sweden has very high tariffs on suspicion. |
| 21:48 | <~Vornicus> | bah |
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| 22:04 | <&jeroud> | McMartin: Just bytes or just unicode is fine. It's the transitions between the two that get problematic. |
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| 22:06 | <&jeroud> | And you don't really want to touch 2to3. It was designed for a time when people were expected to run it and then throw away their Python2 codebases. |
| 22:08 | <&jeroud> | Just set up tox to run your tests on an appropriate selection of interpreters (py26, py34, py35, pypy is a good list, I think) and write code that passes all those. |
| 22:20 | <&McMartin> | Yes, you're doing that thing where you assume that I have your infrastructure fully replicated~ |
| 22:20 | <&McMartin> | IIRC as written it's designed to run on 2.3-2.7, but I strongly suspect if I want a single codebase to operate on 2 and 3, I'll need to set 2.7 as the minimum, yes? |
| 22:21 | <~Vornicus> | I don't remember the last time I saw a python system under 2.7 in the wild |
| 22:22 | <&McMartin> | I got some complaints when I raised the minimum to 2.3, but you know what, I like booleans |
| 22:23 | <~Vornicus> | Booleans broke schlockian |
| 22:24 | <&Derakon> | When I started work at my previous job they were on 2.4. |
| 22:24 | <~Vornicus> | --in 2002. |
| 22:24 | <&Derakon> | I managed to fix a number of impossible-to-debug issues by upgrading to 2.7. |
| 22:24 | <&Derakon> | That was in 2009. |
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| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Honestly, looking at six, I'd seriously consider just dropping Python 2 support entirely |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | This would also let me use one of the decent argument-parsing libraries. |
| 22:31 | <&Derakon> | "six" meaning 2.6? |
| 22:31 | <&McMartin> | six meaning https://pythonhosted.org/six/ |
| 22:31 | <&Derakon> | ...ah. |
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| 22:35 | <&Derakon> | Semi-related: I recently started working with Django, a Python web framework, and it's in Python 3 and I can't even tell aside from the parens requirement for print~ |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, the major change for Ophis is IIRC bytearrays everywhere |
| 22:42 | <&jerith> | McMartin: 2.6 has been EoL and not receiving security updates for over a year. |
| 22:42 | <&jerith> | If you have an application rather than a library, there's no real reason to support lots of versions. |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | I have never actually gotten away with the argument "my program doesn't run because your system is wrong" |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | It is in fact an application, but it's a commandline application and most of my users are on outdated Macs, as near as I can tell |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | This has been a problem for UQM too, actually~ |
| 22:43 | <&jerith> | McMartin: More to the point, many major libraries and frameworks have dropped support for 2.6. |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | That's OK, Ophis doesn't depend on anything |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | Except the terp and its standard library |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | That's... kind of exactly the sticking point |
| 22:44 | <&jerith> | OSX 10.8 (which is no longer supported by many things) ships Python 2.7. |
| 22:44 | <&jerith> | I think OSX 10.6 is the last system I used with Python 2.6. |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | The key here is that not even 10.11 ships Python 3.anything. |
| 22:45 | <&jerith> | Anyway, is there a compelling reason not to just stick with 2.7? |
| 22:45 | <&jerith> | Oh, Xenial. |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | Yes; Xenial isn't shipping with 2.anything, as near as I can tell |
| 22:45 | <&jerith> | AIUI, 2.6 will be available but not installed by default. |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | ... so, Ophis runs fine in 2.7 |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | But that code will not run in 3.x |
| 22:46 | <&jerith> | Err, 2.7 |
| 22:46 | <&jerith> | Not 2.6. |
| 22:46 | < crystalclaw> | ...can you do a self-contained install of the specific python version you want? |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | If it were a GUI app, yes, that would be fine |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | I may just say "screw you, Xenial users, install python2" |
| 22:47 | < crystalclaw> | Why if it was a GUI app? |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | OS X isn't great about "self-containing" things that aren't. |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, that's why this is a total non-issue on Windows; I'm using py2exe there and can use any version I want |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | Every other platform expects to be able to download the source code, put it wherever, and run it at will |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | And if that doesn't work I get blamed, because people don't work the way OSS devs say they should~ |
| 22:50 | < crystalclaw> | I would think you'd want a folder for the data anyway, but you could bootstrap python into the ~/Library/Application\ Support/<app name> by making it a shell script, which then self-modifys into a python program and exits. |
| 22:50 | < crystalclaw> | or runs itself |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that's basically what it does, with the default assumption that the "shell script" is in the directory above that folder and in your path. |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | https://github.com/michaelcmartin/Ophis |
| 22:53 | <&jerith> | McMartin: Is there a particular reason you didn't use a test framework? |
| 22:54 | < crystalclaw> | So wait, why can't you have it's installer download python3 into that script's directory? |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | ... Ophis was literally written when 2.1 was the latest version. |
| 22:55 | <&jerith> | Ah. |
| 22:55 | <&jerith> | Yes, that's a particular reason. |
| 22:55 | <&McMartin> | It's gotten minor updates over the years, but I do not go all-out MAXIMUM ENTERPRISE on everything |
| 22:55 | <~Vornicus> | I didn't realize ophis was that old |
| 22:55 | <&McMartin> | (Minor updates like "actually using booleans") |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | It predates both booleans and "new classes" |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | which were I think 2.2? |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | booleans were 2.3 |
| 22:56 | <&jerith> | 2.2.something |
| 22:56 | < crystalclaw> | o.o |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | It was not actually supposed to be a "real" project but I've gotten more feedback and email about it than I did about my thesis project. |
| 22:57 | <&jerith> | That was the thing that taught them what a terrible idea it was to add new language features in a point release. |
| 22:57 | <&jerith> | And booleans were changed slightly in 2.3. |
| 22:58 | <&McMartin> | The original code for Ophis used 1 and 0 instead of True and False. |
| 22:59 | <&McMartin> | As for test frameworks, my attitude towards unit testing is that it is not tremendously helpful to do the equivalent of writing unit tests to make sure that split() works, so the integrated tests used here are sort of the next smallest step up from that |
| 22:59 | <&jerith> | My first real Python code was 2.3, I think. |
| 23:11 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, this started out as the 'learn Python' project |
| 23:39 | | catadroid [catalyst@Nightstar-k4rng1.dab.02.net] has joined #code |
| 23:51 | | Reiv [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-q8avec.kinect.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| --- Log closed Tue Apr 05 00:00:57 2016 |