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| --- Log opened Wed Jul 01 03:15:46 2015 |
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| 03:58 | < Turaiel> | Who's alive? I have a debate to settle. |
| 03:59 | <@[R]> | I'm pretty sure none of us are dead. |
| 04:00 | < Turaiel> | Great |
| 04:01 | < Turaiel> | My experience with reading about development (and my experience in the field) is that developers are only really good at their job when the company tries to keep them happy |
| 04:02 | < Turaiel> | Whether that be not restricting their internet usage or workstation modifications, providing extra programs/services, not pushing on them, or a combination |
| 04:03 | < Turaiel> | From what I've read, working in a really corporate environment in which the company is not primarily a software company is just not going to attract good developers |
| 04:03 | <@[R]> | Depends on the culture. Some programmers can thrive in sweatshop conditions, but generally, programming is a creative task. |
| 04:03 | < Turaiel> | As in-demand developers, they have the capability to determine which companies are deserving of the skill |
| 04:03 | < Turaiel> | And most of them are going to be driven toward a company with a relaxed environment (like mine) |
| 04:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Why can't it convert X to X&&. |
| 04:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Or for that matter, X&& to X&&. |
| 04:04 | <@[R]> | Generally companies try and outsource development nowadays anyways. |
| 04:04 | < Turaiel> | But my friends seem to think that developers in general are perfectly happy working in heavily corporate invironments |
| 04:04 | <@[R]> | Some programmers sure. |
| 04:04 | <@[R]> | Not all. |
| 04:05 | < Turaiel> | But would you say that the majority feel the way I do? |
| 04:05 | <@celticminstrel> | Whyyyy... |
| 04:05 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, I guess I can std::move it, though that's a little silly here. |
| 04:06 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay. Let's see if this really works. |
| 04:06 | < khyperia> | Turaiel, hrm. I can say for myself, not sure about other people, that I enjoy large structured environments, regular routines, and lots of organization. |
| 04:07 | < khyperia> | I agree with the fact that working in a restricted, "DO YOUR JOB" environment isn't good, but "corporate" or large-company isn't the same thing, I think? |
| 04:07 | <@[R]> | ^ |
| 04:07 | < Turaiel> | "corporate" and large-company are not the same thing in general |
| 04:08 | < Turaiel> | You work at a fairly engineer-centric company |
| 04:08 | < khyperia> | Yeah, true. Well first, let's define corporate. |
| 04:08 | < Turaiel> | People aren't breathing down your neck and they give you all the tools you need, and things like internet access are probably not restricted |
| 04:08 | < Turaiel> | When I say corporate I mean, for example, a health insurance company. |
| 04:09 | < Turaiel> | They write some software to operate their business or communicate with their customers, but the focus is on healthcare. To the management the software developers are very much normal ofice workers. |
| 04:10 | < khyperia> | Right. For that definition, sure, I can agree with you. |
| 04:10 | < Turaiel> | Now, we look at a company focused on engineering, like Microsoft. They provide whatever it requires to keep their workers productive and happy, whether that be benefits or freedom or both. |
| 04:11 | < Turaiel> | I think that most good developers would be miserable in the former environment, and they'll choose to work at the latter instead |
| 04:11 | < khyperia> | But then again, isn't that everywhere? Treat someone special, give them freedom, they're happier. |
| 04:11 | < Turaiel> | Yeah |
| 04:11 | < Turaiel> | And happy devs create better software |
| 04:12 | < khyperia> | But then again, I can see some people (I don't think many) that would do well in that definition of corporate company. |
| 04:12 | < khyperia> | But if we're just talking the general statistics case, sure. |
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| 04:13 | <@celticminstrel> | It works! |
| 04:13 | <@celticminstrel> | My first C++ test case ever. |
| 04:14 | < khyperia> | On a completely unrelated side note, Turaiel, I tried out Atom again and spent like 5 hours trying to get it to work and eventually gave up. |
| 04:14 | < khyperia> | celticminstrel, do you understand what T&& means? What you can do with it, what you can't, etc? |
| 04:14 | < Turaiel> | Atom is still weird, but it's strange that you had issues |
| 04:14 | < Turaiel> | like, breaking issues |
| 04:14 | <@celticminstrel> | Somewhat? |
| 04:15 | <@celticminstrel> | In this case I used it because I wanted one function to take by reference something that had been returned by value. |
| 04:15 | <@celticminstrel> | Maaaybe not the best choice. >_> |
| 04:15 | <@celticminstrel> | (Considering I wrote both functions.) |
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| 04:16 | < khyperia> | Turaiel, not *breaking* issues that were *their* fault directly - but things like the installer failing twice and succeeding the third time, packages taking for-fricken-ever to install, omnisharp being generally stupid as butts w.r.t. coreclr, etc. |
| 04:16 | < khyperia> | celticminstrel, T& is something by ref, not T&& |
| 04:16 | < khyperia> | T&& is an expiring rvalue, if I recall correctly |
| 04:16 | < Turaiel> | Weird |
| 04:17 | <@celticminstrel> | And it turns out that if you have an object of type T&&, you can't pass it to a function that expects T&&. |
| 04:17 | < Turaiel> | Anyway, thanks for the input everyone |
| 04:17 | < Turaiel> | It hasn't really changed my thoughts |
| 04:17 | < Turaiel> | I just need to avoid talking about the concept of happy developers with my friends working in corporate environments |
| 04:18 | < Turaiel> | Apparently the idea of catering to developers has become foreign to htem |
| 04:18 | < Turaiel> | them* |
| 04:18 | < khyperia> | celticminstrel, that makes sense, since call-by-value with an xvalue would be wonk |
| 04:19 | < khyperia> | heh, Turaiel |
| 04:20 | < Turaiel> | Like, the moment I realize that I am not being treated how I want to be in a job is the moment I quit |
| 04:20 | < Turaiel> | And go to one of the many companies that will gladly take me and treat me well |
| 04:22 | < Turaiel> | In other news, the changes in PHP7 look nice |
| 04:23 | < Turaiel> | I need things to laser cut/etch... |
| 04:25 | <@[R]> | There's a PHP 6? |
| 04:25 | < Turaiel> | No, they dropped it |
| 04:25 | < Turaiel> | It's considered a failure |
| 04:25 | <@[R]> | Oh? |
| 04:25 | < Turaiel> | https://github.com/tpunt/PHP7-Reference#what-happened-to-php-6 |
| 04:25 | < Turaiel> | This document also lists all of the changes |
| 04:27 | <@[R]> | D: |
| 04:27 | <@[R]> | $route = isset($_GET['route']) ? $_GET['route'] : 'index'; |
| 04:28 | <@[R]> | That code issues a notice |
| 04:28 | <@Reiv> | So... it *still* can't handle unicode, then |
| 04:28 | <@[R]> | WHY IS THAT THE EXAMPLE D: |
| 04:30 | < Turaiel> | Reiv, yep |
| 04:31 | <@Reiv> | How bad is PHP's codebase that it can't be fixed as a major release |
| 04:31 | < Turaiel> | That... shouldn't trigger a notice.. |
| 04:31 | < Turaiel> | Reiv, do you have to ask that question? |
| 04:32 | <~Vornicus> | Reiv: until very recently, you couldn't index the result of a function call directly: $answer = foo()[0] wouldn't work; you'd have to do $result = foo(); $answer = $result[0] |
| 04:32 | <@[R]> | Turaiel: If $_GET has no 'route' value, it's an array-out-of-bounds or similar. |
| 04:32 | < Turaiel> | Not if used within an isset. |
| 04:32 | <@Reiv> | How is PHP /popular/ |
| 04:33 | <~Vornicus> | Reiv: The tools built on it, unfortunately |
| 04:33 | <~Vornicus> | Wordpress is *amazing* |
| 04:33 | < Turaiel> | isset() is used to avoid notices like that, and the actual use of the variable is not evaluated because it's false. |
| 04:34 | < Turaiel> | In other news, PHP 7 removes E_STRICT messages |
| 04:34 | < Turaiel> | And also all previously deprecated code, including the mysql extension |
| 04:34 | < Turaiel> | (good riddance) |
| 04:34 | <@celticminstrel> | MySQL extension? |
| 04:34 | <@celticminstrel> | You mean, as opposed to mysqli? |
| 04:34 | < Turaiel> | Right |
| 04:35 | < Turaiel> | (also PDO is better anyway) |
| 04:35 | <@celticminstrel> | I guess good riddance is right, then. |
| 04:35 | <@celticminstrel> | I like PDO too. |
| 04:35 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah, the one that included mysql_real_escape_string or whatever it is |
| 04:35 | < Turaiel> | Right |
| 04:35 | <@[R]> | PDO had a ton of annoying edge cases when I used it D: |
| 04:35 | < Turaiel> | Whereas mysqli actually has prepared statements |
| 04:35 | <~Vornicus> | (who the shit thought *that* was a good idea, srsly) |
| 04:35 | < Turaiel> | I think it was an afterthought :) |
| 04:35 | <~Vornicus> | Prepared statements or feed |
| 04:57 | < khyperia> | Oh, so I have a little coding puzzle that came up at work today. Given two ints, x = 2 and y = 4, what are their values after executing `x ^= (y ^= (x ^= y));` (in the C# language)? More importantly, why? |
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| 05:00 | <@Reiv> | ^= being? |
| 05:00 | <~Vornicus> | x = 4, y = 2. This is a classic variable swap. |
| 05:00 | < khyperia> | xor assignment, Reiv |
| 05:01 | <@Reiv> | xor assignment being? |
| 05:01 | < khyperia> | Vornicus, incorrect :) (while this is true in the C language, it is not true in C#) |
| 05:02 | < khyperia> | Reiv, it's "sort of" like "x = x ^ y;", and "sort of" being one of the tricks to the answer to the question |
| 05:02 | <~Vornicus> | answer 2: in any language in which this is legal, your computer should nonetheless beat you about the face and neck with a fish |
| 05:02 | < khyperia> | hah |
| 05:03 | <@Reiv> | ... oh, this is that bitwise comparison of integers crap isn't it~ |
| 05:03 | <@Reiv> | So much hate. |
| 05:03 | < khyperia> | but the answer is x=0 and y=2. Now to explain the fun part of explaining why the heck it happens. |
| 05:03 | <~Vornicus> | yes, xor is bitwise |
| 05:03 | < khyperia> | Well, same thing happens with +=, too (but obviously answer is different) |
| 05:03 | <@Reiv> | It's clever, but unless you're running *really* close to the metal, you shouldn't be going near it ¬¬ |
| 05:03 | <~Vornicus> | A stinky fish |
| 05:04 | < khyperia> | ... Reiv, that's funny, because you just said "not not" which is a common bit-twiddling operation in C |
| 05:04 | < khyperia> | Okay, so explanation time on why x = 2 |
| 05:04 | <~Vornicus> | and I think a lot of assembler thingummies already have a "swap these" isntruction |
| 05:04 | <@Reiv> | When did I say not not |
| 05:04 | <~Vornicus> | an isn'truction! |
| 05:04 | < khyperia> | "¬" is the logical symbol of not |
| 05:05 | <~Vornicus> | god you people are nerds. *goes back to writing a web app of a board game* |
| 05:05 | <@Reiv> | Oh. Yes, you are correct. |
| 05:05 | < khyperia> | basically, in C#, arguments are evaluated from left to right. In this case, the argument to the outermost xor, "x", is loaded *before* the assignment, farther to the right, is executed. |
| 05:06 | <@Reiv> | I was making an incredulous smileyface. |
| 05:06 | < khyperia> | heh, Reiv |
| 05:06 | < khyperia> | This is actually in the spec and documented, which I was surprised about. |
| 05:07 | < khyperia> | I have no idea where the corresponding spec for C is, and if it documents the fact that evaluation order is wonk for that statement (and actually "correctly" swaps the variables) |
| 05:10 | <~Vornicus> | Nasal demons |
| 05:11 | < Turaiel> | I wouldn't be surprised if that were a compiler optimization to prevent such confusion |
| 05:11 | <~Vornicus> | Guaranteed, nasal demons |
| 05:12 | < khyperia> | I think it might be because "op=" in C/C++ load the left hand side as an lvalue, then compute the right hand side, then get the value of the lvalue of the left, turning it into an rvalue, then compute "op", then store in the lvalue. That "delayed loading" is I think the difference. |
| 05:13 | <&McMartin> | khyperia: You may get a consistent result from one compiler, but IIRC C and C++ give no guarantees whatsoever about evaluation order |
| 05:13 | < khyperia> | oh really? Huh. That's interesting. |
| 05:13 | | * Vornicus was right! |
| 05:13 | <~Vornicus> | Nasal demons for everybody! |
| 05:13 | <&McMartin> | Vornicus: Nasal demons might be more specific. |
| 05:14 | <&McMartin> | I forget what the initial case was |
| 05:14 | <&McMartin> | But it was a question of "what does the compiler do when it sees a certain undefined construct" |
| 05:14 | < khyperia> | Woo undefined behavior! I love undefined behavior (and by love, I mea-SEGMENTATION FAULT |
| 05:14 | <&McMartin> | And one of the standards guys said "it remains standards-compliant for the compiler to make demons fly out your nose" or simialr |
| 05:14 | < Turaiel> | Caught signal 11 |
| 05:14 | < Turaiel> | Core dumped. |
| 05:14 | <&McMartin> | At which point "nasal demons" became a thing |
| 05:14 | <&McMartin> | I've been fighting signal 11 and signal 6 all day -_- |
| 05:24 | <@Reiv> | Seems appropriate given the conversations in the past few hours: http://i.imgur.com/lfrGd.jpg |
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| 07:25 | < abudhabi> | Past self, what did you intend to do with "<div id="lol"></div>"? |
| 07:30 | | catadroid [catalyst@Nightstar-ofl9ne.dab.02.net] has joined #code |
| 07:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Obviously, Past Self wanted to troll Future Self~ |
| 08:02 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: This is a legit form of failsoft, and there's a class of reliability metrics based around this |
| 08:02 | < catadroid> | self is an unfortunate concept |
| 08:04 | <@TheWatcher> | How very zen. |
| 08:07 | < catadroid> | I've got more |
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| 12:08 | <&Reiver> | so I'm on Ubuntu and trying to install WINE |
| 12:08 | <&Reiver> | And when you hit up the app store there's like four entries that all look viable |
| 12:08 | <&Reiver> | This is... not helpful to newbies, Ubuntu |
| 12:16 | | * TheWatcher patpats Reiv |
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| 13:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiv: install PlayOnLinux instead. |
| 13:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's a Wine frontend that automatically isolates different windows apps from each other and manages multiple wine versions. |
| 13:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiv: install PlayOnLinux instead. d ;xxxx deeeeejredj v vfcdlflgfgkgmfvlerkdedflfod-dredordor0ed0d0.vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv 9 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999rr9eo9ed9r9rrredeedd0ew2wE u hhhhhh,,,,,,,,,q,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,x |
| 13:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | bzhbnvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv |
| 13:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | vvccccyccycxcxy cx xis89e8rfphJbbbnbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbn cc |
| 13:47 | <@TheWatcher> | Hmm, cat or kid? |
| 13:52 | | ToxicFrog changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! || Ask, then hang about till someone appears who can help: We have high latency, but excellent signal. || We <3 newbies. || Rants and monologues are encouraged; many cores, no wait xxxh jgbnbbbbbb ;ing || Pastebin: http://paste |
| 13:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Kid. |
| 13:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...oops. |
| 13:54 | <@Tamber> | :D |
| 13:55 | | ToxicFrog changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! || Ask, then hang about till someone appears who can help: We have high latency, but excellent signal. || We <3 newbies. || Rants and monologues are encouraged; many cores, no waiting || Pastebin: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/ (Antispam question: answer 'yes') |
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| 14:24 | < catadroid> | or plausibly eldritch horror |
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| 15:37 | <@starkruzr> | so. quick PHP question if anyone has a minute. how do I use this to take a simple integer and turn it into a 00:00:00 hours:minutes:seconds string, where the integer is the number of seconds? http://php.net/manual/en/dateinterval.format.php |
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| 15:47 | < GreenGuy> | " The DateInterval::format() method does not recalculate carry over points in time strings nor in date segments. This is expected because it is not possible to overflow values like "32 days" which could be interpreted as anything from "1 month and 4 days" to "1 month and 1 day". " |
| 15:48 | < GreenGuy> | I think you should make your own function |
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| 15:53 | <@starkruzr> | looks like there are a couple examples around |
| 16:03 | <@starkruzr> | % is mod in PHP, right? |
| 16:03 | <@starkruzr> | yes |
| 16:03 | <@starkruzr> | ... huh. |
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| 16:17 | | ^Xires is now known as Xires |
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| 16:49 | < Vorntastic> | Starkruzr: $interval = new DateInterval("PT{$seconds}S"); $result = $interval -> format('H:I:S'); |
| 16:50 | < Vorntastic> | 5.3 up only, before that DateInterval doesn't exist. |
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| 16:53 | < GreenGuy> | php > echo (new DateInterval('PT4000S'))->format('%H:%I:%S'); |
| 16:53 | < GreenGuy> | 00:00:4000 |
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| 16:54 | < Vorntastic> | Wtf, cou7ldasworn |
| 16:56 | < Vorntastic> | Oh. It is merely because php is insane here. |
| 16:56 | < GreenGuy> | It's because some minutes are longer |
| 16:59 | < GreenGuy> | " The DateInterval::format() method does not recalculate carry over points in time strings nor in date segments. This is expected because it is not possible to overflow values like "32 days" which could be interpreted as anything from "1 month and 4 days" to "1 month and 1 day". " |
| 17:01 | <@Tamber> | Some minutes are 3940 seconds longer than others? |
| 17:02 | < Vorntastic> | 1 second. Happened last night. |
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| 17:03 | <@Tamber> | Indeed. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jul 02 00:00:55 2015 |