| --- Log opened Sun Jun 28 00:00:56 2015 |
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| 19:19 | <@starkruzr> | anyone here played around with Chef? is the learn.chef.io thing a good place to start? |
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| 19:28 | <@froztbyte> | hello hi |
| 19:28 | <@froztbyte> | we're talking about languages |
| 19:28 | <@starkruzr> | so like |
| 19:28 | <@starkruzr> | I was originally educated in Perl and PHP in college, right |
| 19:28 | <@froztbyte> | thus far ruby has been called slow and type-unfriendly |
| 19:28 | <@froztbyte> | python and ruby have been suggested as initial teaching languages, with an OCaml follow-up suggestion |
| 19:29 | <@froztbyte> | and then starkruzr mentioned PHP and I shouted warnings |
| 19:29 | <@froztbyte> | perl takes a special kind of headspace |
| 19:29 | <@starkruzr> | both of these have these sort of native modules that plug into Apache so that one can just go to such-and-such page being served by Apache, and if it's PHP, for example, the PHP interpreter does things and then gives it to Apache, which can then serve both the PHP stuff you did and whatever static content is also being served by Apache in the page |
| 19:29 | <@froztbyte> | I know a few people who get a hell of a lot done in it |
| 19:30 | <@froztbyte> | but I'm still not really convinced it's a good approach to learn now |
| 19:30 | <@froztbyte> | starkruzr: okay, next thing: don't make your language decisions based on what default modules are available in a shitty webserver |
| 19:30 | <@starkruzr> | but as far as I can tell, literally everything else, or at least Python and Ruby, require that you... sort of implement your own webserver? every time? |
| 19:30 | <@starkruzr> | ("shitty" is sort of a bit much to call Apache, isn't it? :P) |
| 19:30 | <@froztbyte> | not like the ones that apache loads by default are any good anyway |
| 19:30 | <@froztbyte> | no, it's pretty much on par |
| 19:31 | <@froztbyte> | apache's httpd is a fucking joke on its defaults |
| 19:31 | <@froztbyte> | it's heavy, it's got a really dumb worker definition, and a side consideration is that it's really picky about some configuration sub-elements just depending on which version you get |
| 19:32 | <@starkruzr> | hm. |
| 19:32 | <@froztbyte> | apache got better from the 2.4 releases |
| 19:32 | <@froztbyte> | those are only /now/ starting to filter into "easily accessible from repos" type of territory |
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| 19:33 | <@froztbyte> | starkruzr: so, on to your comment about webservers and doing your own thing |
| 19:33 | <@starkruzr> | (the problem here for me is that it is so trivially easy to make sure whatever you are doing in Apache is always available -- Apache is a sudo apt-get install away from automatically getting started at boot, etc, I don't have to think about creating a serviced definition for the thing I just wrote, managing its resources, etc.) |
| 19:33 | <@starkruzr> | er, systemd |
| 19:33 | <@froztbyte> | yes, a common approach is to build on some given webserver, or something like wsgi running under gunicorn |
| 19:34 | <@froztbyte> | in ruby country, something like mongrel/thin is quite common |
| 19:34 | <@froztbyte> | those take care of all the actual http bits, so you mostly don't need to care |
| 19:34 | <@starkruzr> | hm. |
| 19:34 | <@froztbyte> | there's a rather big distinction between these and something like what most intro php/perl tuts show, though |
| 19:35 | <@froztbyte> | I have seen a hell of a number of php/perl tuts that go "and this hash contains the request details, so we can simply .... $x here ... and tada!" |
| 19:35 | <@froztbyte> | that's The Wrong Thing to be doing if you're starting out. |
| 19:35 | <@starkruzr> | ? |
| 19:36 | <@starkruzr> | what are you referring to there? |
| 19:36 | <@froztbyte> | web frameworks exist for fairly good reasons, so unless you know what you're doing (which doesn't hold at the start of stuff), you should be using them |
| 19:36 | <@starkruzr> | are you talking about $_POST or whatever? |
| 19:36 | <@froztbyte> | starkruzr: so like, in php, you've got $_REQUEST/$_POST, right? |
| 19:36 | <@starkruzr> | sure, yes. |
| 19:36 | <@froztbyte> | and you could read those directly |
| 19:37 | <@froztbyte> | and build your own little query dispatchers and "page entry points" and whatever |
| 19:37 | <@froztbyte> | or you could just not do that, and use a framework that solves all the common mistakes upfront |
| 19:38 | | * starkruzr attempts to understand what you're referring to |
| 19:38 | <@froztbyte> | for instance: do you upfront know how to protect against CSRF and injection attacks? |
| 19:38 | <@starkruzr> | I mean, $_POST certainly isn't hard to use. |
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| 19:39 | <@starkruzr> | oh. no, certainly not. but I also don't need to worry about that for the application I was working on last week. |
| 19:39 | <@starkruzr> | A) it's internal B) the data is trivial C) the server which is processing things is also trivial |
| 19:39 | <@froztbyte> | exactly; it's not hard to use, but it's hard to get right |
| 19:40 | <@starkruzr> | hm, ok. |
| 19:40 | <@froztbyte> | and in PHP, that little problem (and had habit) happens disturbingly often |
| 19:40 | <@froztbyte> | and since you don't know any better |
| 19:40 | <@froztbyte> | you get to learn incredibly bad habits |
| 19:40 | <@froztbyte> | so if you do want to use PHP (not sure why, it's an awful language, but let's go with it), definitely go for something that affords you the same protections upfront |
| 19:42 | <@starkruzr> | what would you suggest would be a good starting point? |
| 19:45 | <@froztbyte> | <froztbyte> python and ruby have been suggested as initial teaching languages, with an OCaml follow-up suggestion |
| 19:46 | <@froztbyte> | I find that python is rather close to "english pseudocode" for general expression of whatever you might want to do, so it's a great starting point if you're starting out fresh |
| 19:46 | <@froztbyte> | ruby is a good different option just in lots of little ways |
| 19:47 | <@froztbyte> | and both also have their comparitive downsides which you can learn from |
| 19:47 | <@starkruzr> | yeah |
| 19:47 | <@froztbyte> | OCaml is a functional language, which requires a very different mindset |
| 19:48 | <@froztbyte> | you could look into erlang or haskell or whatever as well, but OCaml is probably the easiest of the lot to go with next |
| 19:48 | <@froztbyte> | (if you've got a strong math background, definitely try Haskell too) |
| 19:48 | <@froztbyte> | after you've done all those, go wild. learn Go, Julia, C, whatever |
| 19:51 | <@froztbyte> | (as you might be able to tell, I take the "fuck the history course, learn something useful first" approach) |
| 19:51 | <@froztbyte> | (after that point you can start learning more about what underlies everything, and dive as deep as you wish) |
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| 19:54 | <@froztbyte> | (to be clear: I don't think learning about "fundamentals" is irrelevant, merely that it's the wrong thing to start with for general use) |
| 19:55 | <@froztbyte> | (even just being aware that you're building on another thing is a good thing; for instance, don't try to load 64GB into hot memory and imagine it'll work without problems on all machines) |
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| --- Log closed Mon Jun 29 00:00:11 2015 |