| --- Log opened Thu Jun 18 00:00:25 2015 |
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| 08:49 | | * gnolam sighs, starts trying to find space on his desk for yet another spectro. |
| 08:52 | < catadroid> | spectro? |
| 08:53 | <@gnolam> | Spectrophotometer. |
| 08:55 | <@gnolam> | Don't ask me why they're spectrophotometers instead of photospectrometers (which would be the logical nomenclature given e.g. gamma spectrometers). |
| 08:56 | < catadroid> | mmkie |
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| 09:27 | <@gnolam> | Or "thingies that measure color very accurately".~ |
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| 09:58 | <&Reiver> | the hell do you want a spare spectro for, gnolam |
| 09:59 | <@TheWatcher> | SCIENCE! |
| 09:59 | <@TheWatcher> | What else? ;) |
| 10:11 | <&Reiver> | no |
| 10:11 | <&Reiver> | that was the *first* spectro |
| 10:11 | <@TheWatcher> | MOAR SCIENCE!, then |
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| 13:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Silly question... |
| 13:46 | <@Tarinaky> | What's the difference between i3, i5, i7 again? |
| 13:46 | <@Tamber> | How much money you pay for them. |
| 13:46 | <@TheWatcher> | 2. |
| 13:46 | <@Tamber> | :D |
| 13:46 | < abudhabi> | http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/386100/what_difference_between_an_intel_co re_i3_i5_i7_/ |
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| 13:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Right, so... I've seen some stuff online to suggest the extra cache memory on the i7s aren't worth the candle atm... At least not in benchmarks |
| 13:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Does anyone have anything contradictory to this? |
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| 14:30 | | catadroid` is now known as catadroid |
| 14:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Argh. Computers so expensive q.q |
| 14:36 | < abudhabi> | Not really. |
| 14:36 | < abudhabi> | The last two I bought cost me <10% of my monthly salary. |
| 14:37 | < abudhabi> | What kind of stuff are you buying that's expensive? |
| 14:38 | <@Tarinaky> | My motherboard is on its last legs, I need more RAM, my displays are grotty and it overheats in the summer. |
| 14:38 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm trying to figure out what of those I can reasonably fix in a budget I can realistically try to save before Christmas. |
| 14:39 | <@Tarinaky> | So far I think the need to haves of a new mobo, a like-for-like replacement of my current i7 on the newer socket and 16G of DDR4 is going to set me back more than £500. |
| 14:40 | < abudhabi> | I bought a new, but slightly technologically outdated, desktop (self-assembled) for less than 1000 PLN, IIRC. |
| 14:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Before I even think about trying to fix the cooling or getting myself an SSD. |
| 14:41 | <@Tarinaky> | (I currently have a 3GHz i7 from like... 4 years ago... I figure a high end i5 or a 'low-end' i7 is like-for-like atm?) |
| 14:41 | <@TheWatcher> | abudhabi: vague context - hardware in the UK is painfully overpriced. |
| 14:41 | < abudhabi> | Then buy abroad. |
| 14:42 | <@Tamber> | "But at least it's not Australia." |
| 14:42 | <@TheWatcher> | That's true. |
| 14:43 | < abudhabi> | Take advantage of the Chinese shipping subsidy! |
| 14:43 | <@Tarinaky> | At least the graphics card sockets haven't changed generation-to-generation like when I was a kid. |
| 14:43 | <@Tarinaky> | So I can just carry across my curren graphics card until a friend upgrades their SLi rig and takes pity on me. |
| 14:45 | <@TheWatcher> | abudhabi: and hope they put the price on the customs label low enough that HMRC don't shaft you for import duty, VAT, and then Royal Mail charges their pound of flesh for enforcing that >.> |
| 14:45 | <@Tarinaky> | It's always nice when the shipper commits fraud on your bahalf :P |
| 14:45 | <@TheWatcher> | Yep! |
| 14:46 | <@Tarinaky> | When I buy my titty skittles the shipper's always nice enough to declare a value just less than the threshold for my 'health product'. |
| 14:51 | <&Reiver> | i3 vs i5 is a noticable difference. i7 is only really useful if you want to mess around with a bunch of cores, and/or really need the extra squeezings of processor power. |
| 14:51 | <&Reiver> | (Hint: You probably don't.) |
| 14:52 | <&Reiver> | On a laptop, the math changes - the i7 ability to superboost one core can help single-core apps quite a bit, and AIUI this can be noticably superior to running an i5 if you're doing a lot of processor work |
| 14:52 | <&Reiver> | (Several of my work colleagues got i7 chips in their work PCs so they can crunch Excel with less pain, for instance) |
| 14:52 | <&Reiver> | (Er, work laptop PCs) |
| 14:53 | <&Reiver> | (Everyone on a desktop gets an i5, Fuck You(tm), with precisely one exception in the entire company and that should be a bloody server anyway, the cheapskates) |
| 14:54 | <&Reiver> | so yeah, if you're going on a budget, I'd not bother going higher than an i5 unless the prices are trivial |
| 14:54 | <&Reiver> | Spend the extra moolah elsewhere in the build. |
| 14:56 | <@Tarinaky> | Trouble is... I do actually use the cores though. |
| 14:56 | <&Reiver> | Enough to want hyperthreading? |
| 14:56 | <&Reiver> | Because IIRC that's the big difference. |
| 14:56 | <@Tarinaky> | Not all the time, but I use the box for building software and such. |
| 14:56 | <@Tarinaky> | And compiling is multithreaded. |
| 14:57 | <&Reiver> | Go look up whether hyperthreading buys you anything on that one. |
| 14:57 | < RchrdB> | Reiver, I thought the i5 chips had that overclock-one-single-core turboboost thing too? |
| 14:57 | <&Reiver> | RchrdB: Some do, some don't, and AFAICT the i7 chips do it *better*, at least in laptops |
| 14:57 | <&Reiver> | This could simply be the bigger cache at work, mind |
| 14:58 | < RchrdB> | helpful, thank you |
| 14:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Reiver: I did. The TL;DR is it depends on the compiler but the two compilers I care about are yesses. |
| 14:58 | <&Reiver> | I know as much as to say "It is considered a noticable improvement for a laptop to have an i7 when it is crunching Excel for minutes at a time" |
| 14:58 | <&Reiver> | I cannot say more than that on the turboboost thing |
| 14:59 | <&Reiver> | Tarinaky: Then it's between you and your god, but for my money between the two, I'd probably just go for clock cycles instead of architecture |
| 14:59 | <@Tarinaky> | The trouble is though, this isn't a build, it's an upgrade/repair. |
| 14:59 | <&Reiver> | So long as I can dedicate one core to Not Compiling, I'd be happy |
| 14:59 | <&Reiver> | Because that core means my machine doesn't drive me insane while it churns :p |
| 14:59 | <@Tarinaky> | And I don't want to have to lose features just so I can fix my motherboard being held together by duct tape. |
| 15:00 | <&Reiver> | eh |
| 15:00 | <&Reiver> | How long do your compilings take |
| 15:00 | < RchrdB> | Reiver, "nice" the compiler, works wonders. |
| 15:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Don't recall, I haven't had chance to do any software dev at home all year. |
| 15:00 | <&Reiver> | So you're not going to be losing /much/ |
| 15:00 | <&Reiver> | And you will probably find most singlethreaded stuff will work better in the abstract |
| 15:01 | < RchrdB> | "nice make -j 5" on Linux has ~no impact on light interactive CPU use. |
| 15:01 | <&Reiver> | And even if you lose 50% of the time, so long as the multicores work properly you can just make it +100% and run one core as a dedicated 'run my shit', and go play youtubes or tumblrs or something while you wait, if the length of time is enough to bother swapping tabs anyway. |
| 15:02 | <@Tarinaky> | To be honest... |
| 15:02 | <@Tarinaky> | What single threaded stuff? |
| 15:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Even my web-browser is multithreaded now. |
| 15:02 | <&Reiver> | Half the video games. Wish I was joking. |
| 15:03 | <&Reiver> | Excel is funny about multithreads. Java stuff frequently is too (And I can name like four apps that are my bane at work no less because of it) |
| 15:03 | <@Tarinaky> | The only single-threaded video game I've played, where the processor was the bottleneck (rather than my GPU), was Dwarf Fortress. |
| 15:03 | <&Reiver> | Most other games multithread to 2-3 cores, too. |
| 15:03 | <&Reiver> | Via the brute force of "One for the AI, one for Physics, one for Stuff" |
| 15:04 | <&Reiver> | I really wouldn't bother with i7 on a gaming machine, put it that way |
| 15:04 | <&Reiver> | If you've specialist use cases, go nuts |
| 15:04 | <&Reiver> | If you've got money to burn, why not |
| 15:04 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: so, you don't play KSP? >.> |
| 15:04 | <&Reiver> | But in value for money, i5 is probably where you're at, because it multicores properly. |
| 15:04 | <@Tarinaky> | TheWatcher: I got bored of KSP years ago. |
| 15:04 | <&Reiver> | hilarious given it's only finally finished, and a hell of a lot improved for it |
| 15:05 | <&Reiver> | i7 lets you multicore /and/ hyperthread, which can be nice if you need it, and has a fatter cache if you need it |
| 15:05 | < RchrdB> | Getting bored with them before they're actually finished seems to be a common problem with early-access games. :| |
| 15:05 | <&Reiver> | Which lands roughly in the bucket of 'yeah, you probably don't need it' |
| 15:06 | <&Reiver> | RchrdB: Because there's only so much to poke at, generally |
| 15:06 | <@Tarinaky> | RchrdB: Arguably it's not really a problem. The developer still got paid for the MVP either way. |
| 15:06 | <&Reiver> | So you poke at the bits go "Well, that's interesting" and then move on before the watchmaker was done putting the cogs together. |
| 15:06 | <&Reiver> | If you're lucky, the cogs will actually be put together~ |
| 15:06 | <@Tarinaky> | To be honest, I just didn't like the Career Mode. |
| 15:07 | <&Reiver> | I love Career mode* |
| 15:07 | <@Tarinaky> | The techtree sucks. |
| 15:07 | <@Tarinaky> | And sandbox was more fun. |
| 15:07 | <&Reiver> | * I boost it to x5-10x funding, and raise starting funds so I can upgrade several buildings immediately purely for the quality-of-life stuff attached |
| 15:08 | <&Reiver> | The techtree got fixed up somewhat; career mode lets you still play with kerbal XP and reputation and contracts which are satisfying in themselves, and the areodynamics are now much more solid for their troubles, too. |
| 15:08 | <&Reiver> | Sandbox is fun, but only as long as your imagination holds out. ;) |
| 15:08 | <&Reiver> | Speaking of: Must work out what is breaking my Linux KSP. ;_; |
| 15:10 | <@Tarinaky> | oh ffs. |
| 15:10 | <@Tarinaky> | My phone provider are increasing the cost of calling some 084 numbers :( |
| 15:12 | < RchrdB> | Hm. One game I find interesting on the sandbox vs. challenge-directed gameplay slider is Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe |
| 15:12 | < RchrdB> | because it starts out -sharply- challenge-directed |
| 15:12 | < RchrdB> | but the longer you play it, the more money you have sloshing around (and the easier it is to make money with more advanced vehicles) |
| 15:13 | < RchrdB> | and it sorta transitions smoothly into a sandbox, but only *after* you've given yourself a whole bunch of interesting bodged-but-profitable infrastructure to build around |
| 15:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Actually, reading this, I don't think it's a price increase. |
| 15:13 | <@Tarinaky> | They're just changing the language. |
| 15:14 | <@Tamber> | Ah, that's preparation for when they do increase the price; so you can't tell what they've done~ |
| 15:14 | <@Tarinaky> | If I call 084, 087, 09 or 118 numbers O2 will charge me 25p/min, ontop of the 'basic' cost for the number I'm calling. |
| 15:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Which for 084 is... 5p/m? I forgot |
| 15:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: it's a side effect of OFCOM changing the rules - carriers need to be completely explicit about the costs of calling certain sets of numbers, where before you got the whole "Xp per minute from BT landlines, Yp/min from mobiles, other carriers may charge at different rates", now you get a clear number from your carrier plus a cost per minute from the number you're calling |
| 15:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Still, it ends up wiping out almost all my credit when I call an 0845 number... |
| 15:17 | <@Tarinaky> | And businesses/services are almost always 0845 numbers. |
| 15:17 | <@Tarinaky> | So it can be a complete pain in the butt. |
| 15:17 | <@Tamber> | But at least it's now a slightly less-muddy pain in the butt? |
| 15:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Now I get the pleasure of knowing exactly how much I'm being charged per minute to listen to the DWP's hold music :V |
| 15:17 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 15:18 | <@Tarinaky> | (Vivaldi's Spring iirc) |
| 15:18 | <@TheWatcher> | (Yet another brilliant OFCOM initiative rather than just telling the lot of them to knock it the fuck off and get their arses into the godsdamned 21st century where those sorts of costs are ridiculous) |
| 15:18 | <@Tamber> | It's all about appearing to do something, while doing as little as possible to upset the status quo. |
| 15:18 | <@TheWatcher> | ^- that |
| 15:21 | | * ToxicFrog upreads |
| 15:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | Re: i5 vs i7: on laptops, the countervailing factor there is that the i7 draws more power. |
| 15:22 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't believe in laptops. :P |
| 15:22 | <@Tarinaky> | I have a laptop at work... It never actually moves. |
| 15:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Re: gaming: realistically, it's still single-core performance that matters for most things; even in games that use threads (which is most of them) there's usually a single thread that handles all the really hot computation (these days, almost invariably physics). |
| 15:22 | <@Tamber> | I believe in laptops. Mine was used while moving about quite a bit. :) |
| 15:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Going from four 3GHz cores to eight 3GHz will get you much less benefit than going from four 3GHz to four 3.5GHz. |
| 15:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | (assuming equivalent cycle-for-cycle performance, ofc) |
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| 15:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, Reiver: all the iX series processors support hyperthreading. The differences are not in capability bits but in number of physical cores, clock speed, power consumption, and cache size. |
| 15:27 | <@TheWatcher> | And Superboost. |
| 15:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh, right, that's only on the i5 and i7. |
| 15:45 | < RchrdB> | Was gonna say, the i3s don't. |
| 15:45 | < RchrdB> | (hyperthread, I mean) |
| 15:48 | < VirusJTG> | ok lets go shoping for things needed, ref, German trip |
| 15:48 | < VirusJTG> | bbl |
| 15:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | RchrdB: yes they do. |
| 15:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | They don't turboboost. |
| 16:18 | < RchrdB> | ToxicFrog, no they don't. |
| 16:19 | < RchrdB> | I have one on my desk at home. |
| 16:19 | < RchrdB> | It has two physical cores and shows two logical cores. (total, not each) |
| 16:19 | < RchrdB> | could be my memory being faulty though so i'll double-check later |
| 16:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Make sure you haven't turned it off in the BIOS or the OS, then, because all i3s support HT, at least according to Intel. |
| 16:27 | < RchrdB> | ToxicFrog, hm no I was incorrect. |
| 16:35 | < catadroid> | maaaay have just uttered the words 'I'm a fucking wizard' in the kitchen during a tea break |
| 16:36 | < catadroid> | (This code is so amazingly cool) |
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| 16:52 | | * RchrdB high-fives catadroid |
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| 17:20 | | * catadroid ^5 RchrdB |
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| 18:10 | | celmin|sleep is now known as celticminstrel |
| 18:28 | < RchrdB> | fuck me, .org is down |
| 18:28 | < RchrdB> | briefly? |
| 18:29 | <@Tamber> | ...the whole TLD? |
| 18:29 | < RchrdB> | maybe |
| 18:29 | <@Tamber> | That's a somewhat scary thought. |
| 18:30 | < RchrdB> | Hm no, it's something else. Misread dig +trace's output. |
| 18:30 | | Tamber [tamber@furryhelix.co.uk] has quit [A TLS packet with unexpected length was received.] |
| 18:31 | | [Tamber] [tamber@cpc2-bolt13-2-0-cust256.10-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #code |
| 18:31 | < [Tamber]> | And then, as if on cue, my VPS drops all of my IRC connections and can't resolve irc.nightstar.net. |
| 18:36 | < [Tamber]> | ** server can't find irc.nightstar.net: NXDOMAIN |
| 18:36 | < [Tamber]> | >:C |
| 18:42 | | [Tamber] [tamber@cpc2-bolt13-2-0-cust256.10-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: ~~+++~~ATH] |
| 18:42 | | Tamber [tamber@furryhelix.co.uk] has joined #code |
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| 18:42 | < RchrdB> | Tamber, > |
| 18:42 | <@Tamber> | That was unpleasant. |
| 18:42 | < RchrdB> | "~~+++~~TH" heehee |
| 18:42 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 18:43 | <@Tamber> | Maybe, one day, that'll hit a horribly broken corner case of something and cause a mass-disconnect. |
| 18:44 | < abudhabi> | start_keylogger; |
| 18:45 | <@Tamber> | (Anybody else in here still remember that horrible little fuckup in some home routers that resulted in termination of IRC connections if someone sent a funky CTCP request?) |
| 18:51 | < abudhabi> | :V |
| 18:53 | <@Tamber> | (Ah, I sit corrected. It was a DCC SEND exploit.) |
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| 18:54 | <@celticminstrel> | DCC requests are a subset of CTCP requests, aren't they? |
| 18:55 | <@Tamber> | Honestly, I'm not quite sure. |
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| 19:06 | < RchrdB> | CTCP requests are just ordinary IRC messages, but the message is always surrounded with a pair of \x01 bytes |
| 19:06 | | Tamber [tamber@furryhelix.co.uk] has quit [A TLS packet with unexpected length was received.] |
| 19:07 | < RchrdB> | so "/me sleeps." sends "PRIVMSG #code :\x01ACTION sleeps.\x01" from my client to the irc server. |
| 19:08 | < RchrdB> | DCC requests are a set of CTCP messages which include a host name and port number as parameters. The receiver is expected to make a TCP connection to the advertised (host, port) if they choose to accept. |
| 19:09 | < RchrdB> | something like, "PRIVMSG otherperson :\x01DCC CHAT chat 1.2.3.4 65535\x01", and the receiver may choose to accept by making a TCP connection to 1.2.3.4:65535 |
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| 19:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tamber: IIRC that was a bug in mIRC, not a router exploit |
| 19:25 | <@Tamber> | Yes and no. |
| 19:26 | <@Tamber> | If you used port 0 in a DCC SEND, you could cause some Nyetgear, de-link, and linkski routers to crap their pants. |
| 19:27 | <@Tamber> | Which isn't exactly the same problem as the one mIRC had, but with similar effects. |
| 19:28 | <@Tamber> | (...even better, depending on which router you had with this bug in it, it could be triggered by 'DCC SEND ' followed by six non-whitespace characters sent *anywhere* in a TCP stream on port 6667. (Thankfully, mitigating that stupidity is easy by doing what one should be doing *anyway*: Using SSL~) |
| 19:28 | <@Tamber> | ) |
| 19:28 | < RchrdB> | Both. mIRC had a few bugs similar to that, and the "startkeylogger" one was in router firmware. |
| 19:29 | < RchrdB> | ^ as Tamber points out. |
| 19:29 | <@Tamber> | I saw that router-based one surprisingly recently, come to think of it. |
| 19:34 | < RchrdB> | I wonder what functionality those routers are supposed to be implementing in which the code with the bug resides? |
| 19:35 | <@Tamber> | Apparently, it's supposed to be part of the masquerading code for NAT. |
| 19:35 | <@Tamber> | (According to CVE-2006-1068, anyway.) |
| 19:36 | < RchrdB> | I could plausibly see a router looking at the contents of *outgoing* DCC SEND messages as a feature to help them through NAT, a little bit like UPnP but comprised of lies and trickery rather than being a deliberately designed protocol |
| 19:37 | <@Tamber> | Router manufacturers live in a bizarre world where inconsistent batshittery is apparently an everyday occurrance. |
| 19:38 | < RchrdB> | (outgoing DCC SEND â remember the port number, rewrite the external address and port number, then when the other side connects to that external port+address, forward the TCP connection back to the LAN machine) |
| 19:39 | < RchrdB> | and AFAICT routers have had a bunch of hacks like that to accommodate FTP, ime the worst-designed protocol ever to be serialised over a TCP socket |
| 19:40 | <@Tamber> | Particularly when it then has to traverse NAT. |
| 19:40 | < RchrdB> | it's not that FTP was designed by idiots, it's that it was made up *prior to the invention of TCP* and sorta shovelled onto it |
| 19:41 | <@Tamber> | Quite. |
| 19:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's not so much the fact that it predates TCP as the fact that it predates NAT and firewalls. |
| 19:43 | <@Tamber> | Well, that certainly doesn't help, no. |
| 19:44 | < RchrdB> | ToxicFrog, it predates TCP too. |
| 19:44 | < RchrdB> | Even without NAT or firewalls, separate control and data sockets for the same logical connection is not a good design for TCP. |
| 19:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | RchrdB: I know it predates TCP, we just discussed that, and that certainly doesn't help, but the "two ports" design would still work, even if it's ugly, if everyone were still connected to everyone else. |
| 19:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | (see also: xhost) |
| 19:47 | <@Tamber> | See also: DCC |
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| 20:22 | <@celticminstrel> | Anyone have any idea what could cause the amount of "wired" memory to suddenly quadruple or more. |
| 20:22 | <@celticminstrel> | ^? |
| 20:26 | <@celticminstrel> | ...well, maybe it wasn't sudden. |
| 20:26 | <&McMartin> | Wired memory is stuff that's either pinned for I/O or being used Right Now, IIRC |
| 20:26 | <&McMartin> | So if a device decided it needed some cache now plz, I guess? |
| 20:27 | <@celticminstrel> | Hmm. |
| 20:32 | <@celticminstrel> | Not sure if related, but I also have "AL lib: (EE) alc_cleanup: 1 device not closed" crash on exit. |
| 20:33 | <&McMartin> | Playback buffers would be wired, I guess? |
| 20:35 | <@celticminstrel> | Hmm. |
| 20:36 | <@celticminstrel> | So then... |
| 20:36 | <@celticminstrel> | Maybe sound buffers aren't being properly released? |
| 20:48 | < RchrdB> | Does that mean that mlock()ed pages get marked as wired? |
| 20:48 | < RchrdB> | iirc at least one OS (used to?) pin shared-memory segments as though they were mlock()ed. I think that was 2.4-era linux with posix shmem. |
| --- Log closed Thu Jun 18 20:55:28 2015 |
| --- Log opened Thu Jun 18 20:55:36 2015 |
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| --- Log opened Thu Jun 18 23:25:10 2015 |
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| 23:26 | | *.Nightstar.Net changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! || Ask, then hang about till someone appears who can help: We have high latency, but excellent signal. || We <3 newbies. || Rants and monologues are encouraged; many cores, no waiting || Pastebin: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/ (Antispam question: answer 'yes') |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jun 19 00:00:41 2015 |