| --- Log opened Wed Apr 22 00:00:11 2015 |
| 00:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, this is seriously cool: http://lcamtuf.blogspot.com/2014/11/pulling-jpegs-out-of-thin-air.html |
| 00:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Starting with a text file containing the word "hello", the American Fuzzy Lop fuzz testing tool generates a corpus of valid JPEGs. |
| 00:02 | <@Namegduf> | That is cool. |
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| 00:29 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:44 | <&Derakon> | Today I started diving down the rabbit hole that is high-DPI displays. |
| 00:44 | <&Derakon> | Got vector versions of some of the icons our program uses, made 64x64 rasterized versions, scaled them in software to 16x16, looks great on my Macbook and awful on normal displays. |
| 00:45 | < kourbou> | lol |
| 00:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Other coolness: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/yahh/ |
| 00:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is a simple JS/HTML5 shoot-the-asteroids game that uses CSS wackiness to figure out which sites you've visited. |
| 00:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | (corresponding blog post: http://lcamtuf.blogspot.com/2013/05/some-harmless-old-fashioned-fun-with-css.htm l ) |
| 00:59 | <~Vornicus> | Der: Usually you do this by having icons of many different scales; the .ico format, and some others, handle this for you. |
| 01:00 | <@Reiv> | ... oh, I see |
| 01:00 | <@Reiv> | the rocks coming at me are black, as is the background |
| 01:00 | <@Reiv> | That does make it a touch challenging. |
| 01:01 | <~Vornicus> | Same on mine |
| 01:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh. |
| 01:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | WFM on Chrome |
| 01:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | But it's worth noting (per reading the blog post) that at least some of the rocks are expected to be black. |
| 01:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | If the ones actually hitting you are, that's a bug. |
| 01:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | (the way it works is that some of the rocks are actually links with :visited stylers that make them invisible; these rocks are aimed to just barely miss the player) |
| 01:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | (thus, it can figure out which sites you've visited by seeing which of those rocks you shoot, despite the constraints on :visited implemented to foil such attacks) |
| 01:14 | < kourbou> | What do you guys think of NaCl? |
| 01:14 | <&Derakon> | Vorn: guess I should look into that then. |
| 01:14 | < kourbou> | Chrome NaCl* |
| 01:14 | < kourbou> | Not salt xD |
| 01:14 | <&Derakon> | I'm a bit worried that Java 6 won't support .ico files. Guess we'll find out tomorrow. |
| 01:15 | <&Derakon> | (We're stuck with 6 due to third-party stuff we have to be compatible with) |
| 01:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | kourbou: it's useful only to the extent that you want to run native programs in your browser and the developer wants you to be able to do that |
| 01:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | So basically it's useful for ChromeOS users who want to play Bastion and that's about it |
| 01:18 | < kourbou> | Ah yes. |
| 01:18 | < kourbou> | So mostly Video Games. |
| 01:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | Video games developed in a language supported by the NaCl compiler by developers who care, specifically, about people on CrOS being able to play it (because if you're not on CrOS you can just download a native version). |
| 01:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | That's a pretty small set, especially now that asm.js exists. |
| 01:22 | < kourbou> | So if I understand you, it's pretty useless. |
| 01:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's a very technically impressive achievement without a lot of practical use, yeah. |
| 01:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | If it were "run arbitrary native code safely in the browser" it would be more appealing, but it has to be compiled specifically for NaCl, which means the developer has to want to support it |
| 01:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | And if they're targeting the run-in-browser crowd, they're more likely to go for asm.js or Unity Web Player, both of which are more widely supported. |
| 01:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | They're not as fast, but generally either you have performance to spare (in which case they're fast enough) or you don't (in which case the performance hit of NaCl is probably also unacceptable) |
| 01:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is largely speculation, but it seems largely borne out by the fact that a lot of languages and game engines have been ported to asm.js while NaCl has seen very little adoption since the original POCs. |
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| 01:29 | < kourbou> | Sorry unstable network. |
| 01:29 | < kourbou> | Running IRC on mobile data while in the bus from DC to NYC. |
| 01:29 | < kourbou> | Not the brightest idea. |
| 01:30 | <@Reiv> | I've seen worse |
| 01:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | |
| 01:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | |
| 01:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | Argh. |
| 01:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | kourbou: what was the last thing you saw? |
| 01:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, this is what bouncers are for. |
| 01:35 | < kourbou> | <&ToxicFrog> This is largely speculation... |
| 01:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I just put my laptop to sleep, walked across the building, got dinner, found a table, woke my laptop back up, and it resumed my ssh session) |
| 01:35 | <~Vornicus> | TF: yeah, all the rocks are black |
| 01:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | (ssh worries me sometimes) |
| 01:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | kourbou: ok, that was the last thing I said. |
| 01:38 | < kourbou> | Does anyone know if unity3D uses the native System.Networking or it has an abstraction layer on top for multiplayer networking? |
| 01:40 | < kourbou> | Sorry the namespace is System.Net. |
| 01:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'd expect it does, but check the docs and find out. |
| 01:46 | < kourbou> | I think it does but I was finding it weird because the engine also has to deal with JavaScript. |
| 01:46 | < kourbou> | So I'm guessing they run the code directly and don't translate it. |
| 01:47 | < kourbou> | I thought they had a global abstraction layer that corresponded between the languages. |
| 01:52 | < kourbou> | I have to be really crazy to do what I'm doing, oh well, I started know. |
| 01:55 | <@Namegduf> | MonoGame uses Lidgren. |
| 01:56 | <@Namegduf> | System.Net only really does basic sockets, if they aren't using someone else's higher level library they built one. |
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| 01:56 | <@Namegduf> | Looks like there's some guide to using Lidgren with Unity. |
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| 01:57 | <@Namegduf> | 00:55 <@Namegduf> MonoGame uses Lidgren. |
| 01:57 | <@Namegduf> | 00:56 <@Namegduf> System.Net only really does basic sockets, if they aren't |
| 01:57 | <@Namegduf> | using someone else's higher level library they built one. |
| 01:57 | <@Namegduf> | 00:56 -!- kourbou [kourbou@Nightstar-0er5ha.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: |
| 01:57 | <@Namegduf> | 121 seconds] |
| 01:57 | <@Namegduf> | 00:56 <@Namegduf> Looks like there's some guide to using Lidgren with Unit |
| 01:57 | <@Namegduf> | y |
| 01:58 | < kourbou> | OK. |
| 01:58 | < kourbou> | Guide for lidgren? |
| 01:59 | < kourbou> | Link pls. |
| 01:59 | <@Namegduf> | http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/submitting-lidgren-authorative-networking-examp le.102903/ seems to be one. "Lidgren Unity" is spitting out a lot of stuff. |
| 01:59 | < kourbou> | Okay thanks, gonna have a read. |
| 02:00 | < kourbou> | I also really have to start learning HLSL. |
| 02:00 | < kourbou> | That's on my To-do list |
| 02:00 | < kourbou> | But I heard you can make shaders in C# now. |
| 02:01 | <@Namegduf> | I've not used Unity myself. |
| 02:01 | <@Namegduf> | Just MonoGame/XNA. |
| 02:01 | <@Namegduf> | Both being C#-using the ecosystems kinda interact, though. |
| 02:01 | < kourbou> | MonoGame is cool. |
| 02:02 | <@Namegduf> | It's okay. Mostly stable most of the time now. |
| 02:02 | < kourbou> | It's not what I need though, |
| 02:02 | <@Namegduf> | A lot better than it used to be. |
| 02:02 | < kourbou> | The 3D engine isn't great. |
| 02:02 | <@Namegduf> | I'm using it pretty much purely in 3D. |
| 02:03 | <@Namegduf> | So yeah. |
| 02:03 | < kourbou> | You get an OK framerate? |
| 02:03 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, it seems like you can get a good enough framerate out of it if you do batching well, avoid state changes, all the usual. |
| 02:03 | < kourbou> | Because I've messed a bit with it and it's a bit too low level for what I'm trying to do. |
| 02:03 | <@Namegduf> | It is low level, yeah. |
| 02:04 | <@Namegduf> | If you can use Unity you should, it'd be much faster to getting somewhere. |
| 02:04 | < kourbou> | But people were also complaining about it running slow when it's rendering too much. |
| 02:04 | <@Namegduf> | Efficient graphics rendering is tricky. |
| 02:04 | < kourbou> | Also, I need 3D animation, and animating bones is hard when you're that lie level. |
| 02:04 | <@Namegduf> | And there's problems Unity will deal with for you, and deal with very well. |
| 02:04 | < kourbou> | Low* |
| 02:05 | <@Namegduf> | MonoGame isn't slow, per se, but GPUs are slow if you aren't using them pretty much exactly correctly and MonoGame is low level enough that the work of doing that is left to you. |
| 02:05 | < kourbou> | Have you developed something cool on MonoGame Namegduf? |
| 02:06 | < kourbou> | Yeah, |
| 02:06 | <@Namegduf> | I'm not sure if it's cool, but kinda. It isn't yet public, though. It's dayjob stuff. |
| 02:06 | <@Namegduf> | Unfortunately. |
| 02:06 | < kourbou> | Ah OK. |
| 02:06 | < kourbou> | You work at a studio? |
| 02:06 | <@Namegduf> | Little software startup. |
| 02:06 | < kourbou> | Nice :3 |
| 02:07 | < kourbou> | And what pushed your decision for MonoGame? |
| 02:07 | < kourbou> | Because most people looking for a framework go the C++ (SDL, SFML, Allegro) way. |
| 02:08 | <@Namegduf> | There was already a thing written on XNA. I wouldn't go C++ because it does a lot of other stuff and writing all of it in a language without memory safety and garbage collection is... not my preference. |
| 02:09 | < kourbou> | Oh yeah, I've seen people complain about the garbage collection on C# |
| 02:09 | <@Namegduf> | That said, low level is pretty necessary anyway because a lot of what it's doing is weirdass. |
| 02:09 | < kourbou> | Oh xD |
| 02:09 | < kourbou> | Alright. |
| 02:11 | <@Namegduf> | MonoGame is more or less a layer on top of SharpDX/OpenTK which gives you agnositicism between both OpenGL and DX, a basic content pipeline, *some* input handling, and sound handling. |
| 02:11 | < kourbou> | Yeah, I tried OpenTK a bit. |
| 02:12 | <@Namegduf> | It's thin enough that if it *does* add any significant overhead you can make your own tweaks to it relatively easily, but you really are working which something which is only a little above DirectX or OpenGL themselves. |
| 02:12 | < kourbou> | But that's even more confusing than monogame. |
| 02:12 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah. |
| 02:12 | < kourbou> | I've seen some engines on top of MonoGame too. |
| 02:13 | < kourbou> | YnaEngine being one if them. |
| 02:13 | < kourbou> | It's not bad. |
| 02:13 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah. The real thing is that it's nothing like an actual *engine* in itself, I think. |
| 02:13 | <@Namegduf> | And all the usual reasons to not roll your own engine are reasons to not use it. |
| 02:14 | < kourbou> | If you need a feature for your engine that you don't know how to approach YnaEngine. I did that for my InputManager.cs |
| 02:14 | <@Namegduf> | The JSIL fork of MonoGame was looking interesting until they abandoned it. |
| 02:14 | < kourbou> | JSIL? |
| 02:15 | <@Namegduf> | http://jsil.org/ <- Insanity. |
| 02:15 | <@Namegduf> | .NET IL -> JS |
| 02:15 | < kourbou> | Oh, to port or to web. |
| 02:15 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah. |
| 02:15 | < kourbou> | That's interesting. |
| 02:16 | < kourbou> | Fair enough, |
| 02:16 | <@Namegduf> | MonoGame has a platform for it with all the actual platform-specific bits stubbed out. No one got around to filling them in, and JSIL is still too primitive to work- they haven't gotten the stdlib to work well enough yet, so you need to manually provide replacements for all the bits of it you need, and so on. |
| 02:16 | <@Namegduf> | They were going to try to build it on WebGL, though. |
| 02:16 | <@Namegduf> | And they had it displaying a solid blank screen. |
| 02:16 | <@Namegduf> | XD |
| 02:16 | < kourbou> | You probably have to cleanup the code after though? |
| 02:17 | <@Namegduf> | I don't think it was intended that you'd do that as a manual step. |
| 02:17 | < kourbou> | Or its best perfection that you can run it and then run the code? |
| 02:17 | <@Namegduf> | There was talk of making it cooperative with minification. |
| 02:17 | <@Namegduf> | That's what it does, yeah. |
| 02:17 | < kourbou> | Near perfection* |
| 02:17 | < kourbou> | wow |
| 02:17 | <@Namegduf> | It just, well, is not actually finished and also unoptimised on the JS part of it. |
| 02:18 | < kourbou> | And it leaves absolutely no bug? |
| 02:18 | <@Namegduf> | Right now it's positively bugridden. |
| 02:18 | < kourbou> | No traces, nothing? |
| 02:18 | < kourbou> | Oh xD |
| 02:18 | <@Namegduf> | There are *arithmetic* bugs showing up. |
| 02:18 | <@Namegduf> | JSIL isn't quite finished. XD |
| 02:18 | < kourbou> | Right :P |
| 02:18 | <@Namegduf> | It's enough to get started but no one has put in the huge amount of time needed to make it good enough to reliably run a real project. |
| 02:19 | <@Namegduf> | I think. |
| 02:19 | < kourbou> | I've never used a language translator before. |
| 02:19 | <@Namegduf> | I just view it as a kind of amazing project to even attempt. |
| 02:20 | < kourbou> | Yeah. |
| 02:20 | <@Namegduf> | I did try to persuade the Android MonoGame to run under ARC but it won't yet. |
| 02:20 | < kourbou> | Oh :( |
| 02:21 | <@Namegduf> | I was able to fix the biggest bug (OpenTK sees that the kernel is not calling itself "linux", but calling itself "nacl" instead, decides it is on an obscure UNIX-like, and throws UnsupportedPlatformExceptions everywhere.) |
| 02:21 | <@Namegduf> | And it would start and you could see the thing run, but it was very crashy and I lacked proper debug tools for figuring out why so I set it aside. |
| 02:21 | < kourbou> | Oh >.> |
| 02:22 | < kourbou> | The kernel is "back"? |
| 02:22 | < kourbou> | Nacl* |
| 02:22 | <@Namegduf> | That's what it reports to the uname system call. |
| 02:22 | < kourbou> | That's surprising. |
| 02:22 | <@Namegduf> | Well, not system call. The uname libc call? |
| 02:22 | < kourbou> | The same as the Chrome NaCl? |
| 02:23 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, ARC runs under NaCl. |
| 02:23 | < kourbou> | Or its a totally different thing? |
| 02:23 | < kourbou> | wow, interesting. |
| 02:23 | <@Namegduf> | It's basically a port of the entirity of Android to Native Client. |
| 02:23 | <@Namegduf> | Except not quite the entirity- anything they can skip, stub out, or fake without it being noticeable to the application they have done. |
| 02:23 | <@Namegduf> | That's how they're getting Android apps to run inside Chrome. |
| 02:24 | <@Namegduf> | And it *does* have OpenGL ES support, presumably implemented through WebGL. |
| 02:24 | <@Namegduf> | They seem to be trying to get it to be more usable and stable from their end as a way of bringing apps to Chrome and leveraging their whole ecosystem thing. |
| 02:25 | < kourbou> | Okay then. |
| 02:25 | < kourbou> | Google is ambitious. |
| 02:25 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah. |
| 02:25 | <@Namegduf> | I was annoyed to put it aside really because it almost works, but there's no point sinking time into it when Google are already doing that for me, at scale and with better tooling and knowledge. |
| 02:25 | <@Namegduf> | Or potentially doing so anyway. |
| 02:26 | <@Namegduf> | I wouldn't be surprised if Unity for Android could run under it, but Unity has a web player anyway. |
| 02:26 | < kourbou> | Yeah, |
| 02:27 | < kourbou> | Except you need to download a plugin. |
| 02:27 | <@Namegduf> | The fanciest part of the whole ARC thing I think is that it is perfectly happy with apps containing native code using the NDK. |
| 02:27 | < kourbou> | And some little get lost at the sight of the word "plugin" |
| 02:27 | <@Namegduf> | It appears to actually translate the native code to NaCl or something nuts. |
| 02:28 | <@Namegduf> | They've put a lot of work into it. |
| 02:28 | < kourbou> | Yeah, |
| 02:28 | <@Namegduf> | I say perfectly happy, I'm eyeing this as a place causing the crashes. But it at least mostly works for most people. |
| 02:33 | < kourbou> | Well I'm about to arrive in NYC, |
| 02:33 | < kourbou> | Nice to meet you Namegduf :3 |
| 02:34 | <@Namegduf> | Nice to meet you too. |
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| 06:19 | <@gnolam> | http://wondermark.com/c1117/ |
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| 10:02 | < abudhabi> | http://astro.unl.edu/naap/habitablezones/animations/stellarHabitableZone.html |
| 10:08 | <@TheWatcher> | Neat little thing |
| 10:09 | < abudhabi> | I like how the planet turns into a deady face when you put it inside the sun's radius. |
| 10:15 | <@Tarinaky> | It does that for anything that destroys the planet. |
| 10:15 | <@Tarinaky> | It's a pretty cool toy. |
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| 15:47 | < kourbou|nyc> | Sorry about that. |
| 15:47 | < kourbou|nyc> | The name changes. :P |
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| 23:20 | < kourbou> | Coders be codin'? |
| 23:20 | <&McMartin> | Every day |
| 23:27 | <@Reiv> | I am presently at approximately line 100 in a wonderfully concise query that groups things by month, and ends up with two Aprils |
| 23:27 | <@Reiv> | This pleases me about as much as you would expect. |
| 23:31 | <&jerith> | I'm debugging a Scala progam and getting lost in all the syntactic saccharin. |
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| 23:53 | < kourbou> | I'm on an android phone depressed because I can't code my ideas that will probably leave me in an hour. |
| 23:58 | <&jerith> | kourbou: Put your ideas into IRC so you can see them later. |
| 23:58 | < kourbou> | XD |
| 23:58 | < kourbou> | Sure, that works. |
| 23:58 | <&jerith> | That's what I usually do. |
| 23:58 | <&jerith> | Once someone even implemented one of them so I didn't have to. |
| --- Log closed Thu Apr 23 00:00:27 2015 |