| --- Log opened Fri Mar 13 00:00:35 2015 |
| 00:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: rather you'd define __mul and __div on the metatable for vectors |
| 00:06 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:06 | <~Vornicus> | TF: well, yes |
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| 03:59 | <&McMartin> | Wow, that may be a first for me |
| 04:00 | | * McMartin compiles a GUI application on Ubuntu, tars up a bunch of stuff, copies the binaries over to Fedora, runs it, has it work. |
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| 10:14 | <@Tarinaky_> | TL;DR: Operator overloading is evil. Don't do that. |
| 10:15 | <@Tarinaky_> | Particularly since vector * vector has multiple definitions~ |
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| 11:13 | | * TheWatcher sighs |
| 11:14 | <@TheWatcher> | In order to explain this sufficiently, I'm probably going end up having to record a bloody video |
| 11:18 | <&McMartin> | Wear a labcoat, a large false moustache, and cackle like the TF2 medic every other sentence |
| 11:24 | <@TheWatcher> | Hehehehehe |
| 11:56 | | * TheWatcher looks at this code, eeghs |
| 11:57 | <@TheWatcher> | This isn't merely full of spiders, it's full of Sorrow Spiders |
| 12:47 | | * TheWatcher ponders, tries to work out the next station for SPACEMAN SWITCHBOARD |
| 13:29 | | * Tarinaky_ groans at the 'rent-to-own' housing scheme the libdems are putting forward Missing The Point. |
| 13:32 | <@TheWatcher> | libdems missing the point? Say it ain't so... |
| 13:34 | <@Tarinaky_> | The Tories want to eliminate the need for house builders to build affordable housing: which is just a massive fuck you. |
| 13:35 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, yeah |
| 13:35 | <@abudhabi> | Why do you need to legislate affordable housing? By definition, if it's not affordable, there's no market for it. |
| 13:35 | <@Tarinaky_> | I think Labour are advocating a return to the pre-1980s policy of having local authorities actually build houses... But their sums don't add up on the number of houses they want built and there's no funds tabled to do this. |
| 13:35 | <@Tarinaky_> | abudhabi: Because demand for housing is inelastic. |
| 13:36 | <@TheWatcher> | abudhabi: the problem is that the UK housing market is horribly fucked |
| 13:36 | <@Tarinaky_> | Demand for housing is inelastic. |
| 13:36 | <@abudhabi> | TheWatcher: Have you tried restoring to the last working configuration? |
| 13:36 | <@Tarinaky_> | The private sector has /never/ supplied enough housing to meet demand |
| 13:37 | <@Tarinaky_> | And in the 1980s, during the policy of moniterisation, local councils stopped building houses to save money. |
| 13:37 | <@Tarinaky_> | Up until this point councils had built the majority of new builds in this country. |
| 13:37 | <@Tarinaky_> | Which meant the building trades collapsed and have never recovered. |
| 13:38 | <@Tarinaky_> | So there just aren't enough qualified chippies to return to pre-1980 levels of house building. |
| 13:38 | <@abudhabi> | This all sounds like trying to micromanage the housing economy. |
| 13:38 | <@abudhabi> | (And predictably failing.) |
| 13:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky_: the problem is that there is the huge assumption that we need more houses. I would invite you to come walk around some farily substantial areas of Manchester, where there are *entire streets* empty |
| 13:38 | <@Tarinaky_> | And there's an annual shortfall of 200,000-odd houses between those built and the number of 'new households'. |
| 13:39 | <@TheWatcher> | The problem isn't so much that we "need more houses", it's that there are shittons of houses people either don't want, can't afford to fix up, or can't afford to buy |
| 13:40 | <@Tarinaky_> | The north has fewer jobs. |
| 13:40 | <@TheWatcher> | Building more houses is simply the 'obvious' way out - increase supply, price will drop, right? |
| 13:40 | <@TheWatcher> | Except not |
| 13:40 | <@Tarinaky_> | Increase the supply of /council/ houses. |
| 13:40 | <@abudhabi> | What's a council house? |
| 13:41 | <@Tarinaky_> | A house owned by a council for the purposes of letting to people whos needs aren't being met by the market. |
| 13:41 | <@Tarinaky_> | i.e. the poor. |
| 13:41 | <@abudhabi> | Right. |
| 13:41 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky_: Yeah, but the problem you get into there is that, unless you abolish right-to-buy, they get rapidly bought up cheap by 'entrepreneurs' and companies and then sold on for full value |
| 13:42 | <@abudhabi> | Council being some sort of local government? |
| 13:42 | <@Tarinaky_> | Right-to-buy ws already abolished |
| 13:42 | <@Tarinaky_> | abudhabi: Yes. |
| 13:42 | <@abudhabi> | For some reason this reminds me of Venezueal. |
| 13:42 | <@abudhabi> | *Venezuela |
| 13:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky_: oh? I missed that |
| 13:43 | <@Tarinaky_> | Also the entrepeneurs don't buy the house through right to buy directly. |
| 13:43 | <@Tarinaky_> | They buy it from the feckless relatives of the people who bought it through right to buy 20 years ago. |
| 13:43 | <@TheWatcher> | And, y'know, you also need to make sure the councils actually maintain them properly, or you end up with the 70s/80s shitholes again |
| 13:44 | <@TheWatcher> | Given that the councils generally can't even maintain their normal services because of government buttfuckery, that's not happening. |
| 13:44 | <@Tarinaky_> | Yup. |
| 13:45 | <@Tarinaky_> | Although even at below market rates a tenancy would be a decent money-spinner. |
| 13:45 | <@abudhabi> | Hmm. Have you tried invading some overseas country and exporting your poor there? |
| 13:45 | <@Tarinaky_> | Even if the money is being paid for by the national government. |
| 13:46 | <@Tarinaky_> | We currently have the issue with London trying to export the poor to the rest of the country and falling into the problem that a large percentage of the homeless aren't unemployed |
| 13:47 | <@abudhabi> | It would probably be cheaper to hand any willing poor a ticket to America than to build them a house. |
| 13:47 | <@Tarinaky_> | Which means a hard choice between being more dependent on the state and a lifestlye of sofa surfing. |
| 13:47 | <@abudhabi> | With airline throughput of nowadays, it's even practical to move loads of manpower. |
| 13:47 | <@TheWatcher> | abudhabi: uh |
| 13:47 | <@TheWatcher> | I'm going to choose to assume you're being flippant |
| 13:47 | <@abudhabi> | :V |
| 13:47 | <@abudhabi> | I am. |
| 13:48 | <@Tarinaky_> | We're just going to ignore you. |
| 13:48 | <@Tarinaky_> | We could abolish the green belt. |
| 13:48 | <@Tarinaky_> | But that'd piss off the Tory heartland and the left wing at the same time. |
| 13:49 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, about that |
| 13:49 | <@TheWatcher> | they've actually done that, it's a loophole in the planning laws |
| 13:49 | <@Tarinaky_> | It still costs a fortune to use those loop holes and you have to jump through them a bit. |
| 13:49 | <@TheWatcher> | Greenbelt is still there, but if the local plans don't specifically protect it, they can get on it |
| 13:49 | <@Tarinaky_> | Which drives up the cost. |
| 13:49 | <@abudhabi> | What's a greenbelt? |
| 13:50 | <@TheWatcher> | Local plans can prevent it, but only if the government planning inspector actually approves the local plan |
| 13:50 | <@Tarinaky_> | 'The Countryside' |
| 13:50 | <@TheWatcher> | (I'm in the High Peak National Park, and this is causing a Serious Shitstorm right now) |
| 13:50 | <@Tarinaky_> | Basically victorian NIMBYism |
| 13:51 | <@Tarinaky_> | It's easier to get planning permission for a 'brownfield' site than in undeveloped land. |
| 13:51 | <@TheWatcher> | Yep |
| 13:52 | <@Tarinaky_> | And with a lot of the population concentrated around the South East |
| 13:52 | <@Tarinaky_> | It leads to UKIPisms like the believe the country is a small island and somehow 'full up' |
| 13:52 | <@Tarinaky_> | Despite Wales existing. |
| 13:54 | <@Tarinaky_> | Because they've lived their whole life in a massive conurbation that makes up over a third of the economy on its own and anything further way than Oxford might as well be radioactive wilderness. |
| 13:56 | <@abudhabi> | Well, looking at population density maps, Britain seems pretty densely populated, with the exception of northern Scotland. |
| 13:58 | <@Tarinaky_> | Chromakey maps are misleading imo |
| 14:00 | <@TheWatcher> | abudhabi: http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/HTMLDocs/dvc134_c/index.html - that's a better map |
| 14:02 | <@abudhabi> | Cool. |
| 14:02 | <@TheWatcher> | Note the black hole that is greater london >.> |
| 14:02 | <@TheWatcher> | (well, deep purple hole~) |
| 14:03 | <@Tarinaky_> | That's not greater london |
| 14:03 | <@Tarinaky_> | Greater London is /inside/ the M25 |
| 14:03 | <@abudhabi> | Hmm. How does the existence of plenty of space combine with the earlier objection that people go where the jobs are? |
| 14:03 | <@Tarinaky_> | abudhabi: The heatmap of jobs looks like the heatmap of population density. |
| 14:03 | <@abudhabi> | Yes. |
| 14:04 | <@Tarinaky_> | So... there's not enough space for all of the jobs to be concentrated in such a small area? |
| 14:04 | <@Tarinaky_> | I'm not sure what you're asking. |
| 14:05 | <@abudhabi> | I'm trying to determine how opening up the countryside would help, given that people are already where they want to be for other reasons. |
| 14:06 | <@Tarinaky_> | It'd make it easier to build satelite towns and extend the conurbation (basically make the purple black hole take up more of the map). |
| 14:06 | <@Tarinaky_> | But you're right, it wouldn't have a massive effec.t |
| 14:06 | <@abudhabi> | Wouldn't be immediate, either. |
| 14:06 | <@Tarinaky_> | HS2 has been having a lot of issues with planning and the arguments. |
| 14:07 | <@Tarinaky_> | I'm pretty sure there is no immediate solution to the housing crisis that isn't flippant. |
| 14:08 | <@abudhabi> | They could try the Chinese solution of changing the rules for certain small areas, see how they develop, and impose the successful ones more broadly? |
| 14:08 | <@abudhabi> | Would require planning horizons beyond the next election, though. |
| 14:09 | <@Tarinaky_> | Heh, you've just given me ideas for more things to use in arguments with UKIPers |
| 14:10 | <@TheWatcher> | abudhabi: Issue is that what you need isn't houses, it's jobs, and ones that are actually worth taking, outside the very focussed areas they are in now. |
| 14:11 | <@abudhabi> | Well, yes, of course. |
| 14:11 | <@Tarinaky_> | We need houses /as well/ |
| 14:11 | <@abudhabi> | Is homelessness such a big problem in the UK? |
| 14:11 | <@Tarinaky_> | Yes. |
| 14:12 | <@Tarinaky_> | Noting that homelessness and rough sleeping aren't the same thing. |
| 14:12 | <@abudhabi> | What's rough sleeping? |
| 14:13 | <@Tarinaky_> | Urban camping. |
| 14:13 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky_: I again would invite you to walk around greater manchester, most of yorkshire, northumberland, pretty much any of the old mining, shipbuilding, or manufacturing areas... there are plenty of empty houses, plenty of brownfield sites |
| 14:13 | <@abudhabi> | What? |
| 14:14 | <@Tarinaky_> | TheWatcher: And I would invite you to look at the statistics showing a clear disparity between the number of 'new households' each year and the number of properties constructed each year to live in. |
| 14:14 | <@Tarinaky_> | abudhabi: Tramps. Hobos. |
| 14:16 | <@Tarinaky_> | Even if there's a surplus of houses now you still need to be building them to keep up with the natural growth in population. |
| 14:16 | <@Tarinaky_> | Because when there is a problem there's not going to be an immediate solution |
| 14:17 | <@Tarinaky_> | And expecting the free market to meet all of the demand for housing is wishful thinking that it failed to achieve even during the boom years before 2007. |
| 14:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, I'm not expecting it to. |
| 14:19 | <@abudhabi> | Tarinaky_: Central planning now doesn't seem to be meeting the demand, either. (Or we wouldn't be having this conversation.) |
| 14:19 | <@TheWatcher> | But what irritates me is the simplistic "we must build more houses" mantra without taking into account that we have a shitton of empty ones, and a lot of areas that could be replaced by them, except nobody wants to go there because there's no jobs, and no sane way to get to thos ejobs |
| 14:20 | <@TheWatcher> | *to get to other jobs |
| 14:21 | <@abudhabi> | Also with whose money to build those houses. |
| 14:22 | <@TheWatcher> | And then politicians down in London decree to local councils that they 'must build more houses' without even evaluating any of that, because it's a lot easier to say "build more houses" and not actually care whether those houses are ever bought than it is to deal with the fact that there's whole areas of the country that are borderline uninhabitable because you can't live there and work |
| 14:23 | <@Tarinaky_> | I live in the South East now though and we do need to build more houses here. |
| 14:23 | <@Tarinaky_> | I live in the south east, outside greater london. |
| 14:24 | <@Tarinaky_> | Well outside. |
| 14:24 | <@Tarinaky_> | And the mantra of additional pylons makes sense here. |
| 14:27 | <@TheWatcher> | But meh |
| 14:28 | <@Tarinaky_> | Yay Reading. |
| 14:32 | | * iospace sighs at SQL |
| 14:33 | | * TheWatcher gives iospace a '; DROP TABLE users' |
| 14:33 | <@iospace> | no thanks |
| 14:41 | | * Tarinaky_ swears at the Ruby interpretter exploding for no reason |
| 14:46 | <@iospace> | Ruby? Failing? |
| 14:46 | <@iospace> | say it isn't so~ |
| 14:46 | <@Tarinaky_> | The interpretter is segfaulting. |
| 14:46 | <@Tarinaky_> | Like... properly. |
| 14:46 | <@iospace> | properly? |
| 14:47 | <@Tarinaky_> | Normally when it segfaults it's very obviously my fault. |
| 14:47 | <@TheWatcher> | Time to load the corefile in gdb and start losing your will to live!~ |
| 14:48 | <@iospace> | TheWatcher: Tarinaky_ is using Ruby, I think that went away already :P |
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| 14:49 | <@Tarinaky_> | I'm not using rails |
| 14:49 | <@Tarinaky_> | I'm using proper Ruby |
| 14:49 | <@Tarinaky_> | Doing srsbsns hardware testing. |
| 14:51 | <@Tarinaky_> | Which is hilarious |
| 14:56 | <@Tarinaky_> | Must just be Friday. Problem's gone away with a rebuild. |
| 15:56 | <@Tarinaky_> | Reasons I am a terrible developer: I find it /waaaay/ easier to define tests after the code than before. |
| 15:56 | <@Tarinaky_> | DAE? |
| 16:17 | <@Tarinaky_> | http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/google-to-close-google-cod e-open-source-project-hosting/ |
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| 16:58 | <&Derakon> | Bleh, stupid Java. |
| 16:58 | <&Derakon> | We have a class that consists of static methods (it's a logging class). |
| 16:58 | <&Derakon> | We want to expose those methods in the API. |
| 16:58 | <&Derakon> | So we make an interface that declares the methods. |
| 16:58 | <&Derakon> | And then have an API method to get the object that implements them. |
| 16:58 | <&Derakon> | So you do e.g. api.logs().logMessage(String message). |
| 16:59 | <&Derakon> | But that needs to redirect to LoggingUtils.logMessage(), which is static. |
| 16:59 | <&Derakon> | And you can't do that. |
| 16:59 | <&Derakon> | So we have to have a separate, non-static object that thinly wraps the LoggingUtils static methods. |
| 16:59 | <&Derakon> | And then have that non-static object be what api.logs() returns. |
| 16:59 | <&Derakon> | ("api" in this case is a globally-available "entry" object into our API for code that runs as a plugin) |
| 17:09 | <@[R]> | Reflection? |
| 17:11 | <&Derakon> | Oh my god reflection in Java is a gigantic pain in the ass. |
| 17:11 | <&Derakon> | And I have no idea how you'd go about hooking that up to a predefined interface. |
| 17:17 | <@celticminstrel> | Why can't you just expose LoggingUtils to users of the API? |
| 17:17 | <@celticminstrel> | So then users can directly use LoggingUtils.logMessage() and such. |
| 17:17 | <&Derakon> | In general I prefer not to expose implementations in our API. |
| 17:18 | <&Derakon> | Using an interface object instead means we're much more free to change things behind the scenes. |
| 17:18 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay. |
| 17:19 | <@celticminstrel> | Why not make the methods non-static? |
| 17:19 | <&Derakon> | Because then all of our existing code that invokes them has to be changed to e.g. LoggingUtils.getInstance().logMessage(). |
| 17:19 | <&Derakon> | And that's a fair amount of extra verbosity. |
| 17:20 | <@celticminstrel> | I see. |
| 17:22 | <&Derakon> | That is, existing internal/non-API code. |
| 17:22 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, I understood that much. |
| 17:23 | | * celticminstrel personally thinks that something like getInstance() in a singleton class would be a better done as a public member variable (possibly final), but I suppose most people would disagree. |
| 17:23 | <@celticminstrel> | Basically, it was badly set up to begin with, and you have to maintain compatibility. Something like that. |
| 17:26 | <&Derakon> | There are extremely few situations in which I would countenance having a public field in a Java class. |
| 17:26 | <&Derakon> | And those situations mostly boil down to "I need a class that's just a dumb data container". |
| 17:29 | <&Derakon> | Anyway, AFK time. |
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| 17:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky_: "DAE"? |
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| 18:05 | <@Tarinaky_> | DAE is Does Anyone Else. |
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| 18:38 | | * McMartin would add "or the field is final or static or both." |
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| 20:00 | <&McMartin> | http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/03/consumer-ssds-benchmarked-to-death-and-la st-far-longer-than-rated/ |
| 20:01 | <&McMartin> | Lasting far longer than rated is nice to see, though the Crash Bandicoot story makes me wonder if the ratings are just super-conservative |
| 20:10 | <&Derakon> | Crash Bandicoot? |
| 20:13 | <&McMartin> | Crash Bandicoot was one of the first PS1 games to basically do continuous loading from the CD drive as you went through a level. |
| 20:14 | <&McMartin> | During a retrospective, they shared a story where they talked about this awesome new technique with some Sony guys, and they asked "so, uh, how many reads is that in one playthrough" |
| 20:14 | <&McMartin> | And they worked it out, and the Sony guys got real quiet and said something like "that's about twice as many seeks as the drive is rated for" |
| 20:14 | <@Tamber> | hee |
| 20:14 | <&Derakon> | Oh dear. |
| 20:15 | <&McMartin> | But the PS1 was not particularly known for having dodgy optical drives, which means the rating must have been *hilariously* conservative. |
| 20:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: well, they were known for having unexpectedly fast-wearing worm gears, or at least some models were |
| 20:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | But when that started happening you could just flip it on its side and get another several years of life out of it |
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| 20:35 | <&McMartin> | Right, but compare that with the stories on the physical reliability of the X360, the PS3, and the Vita |
| 20:35 | < kourbou> | PC Master Race :V |
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| 20:47 | <&McMartin> | kourbou: Implication is that the old-school Gameboy players were the true Master Race there~ |
| 20:47 | < kourbou> | yes |
| 20:48 | < kourbou> | ofc |
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| 21:00 | <&McMartin> | Hrm |
| 21:00 | <&McMartin> | I want to replicate a directory, including (relative, internal) symlinks. |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | Is there a cleaner way to do this than tarring it and then untarring it elsewhere? |
| 21:01 | <@Namegduf> | Can rsync do it, with the right options? |
| 21:02 | <@Namegduf> | Ah, --links, "copy symlinks as symlinks" |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | It looks like cp has a --no-dereference option too |
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| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | Oh, crud, hm, I don't get to do any of these things. |
| 21:07 | <@Namegduf> | Oh? |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | This is going into a cross-platform archive, ultimately, so that means "must survive being copied to and from NTFS if not FAT32", which means anything where links matter the links will need to be constructed by the Makefile as needed, or baked into a tarball. |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | That said, cp has all kinds of neat options |
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| 21:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: the answer to "I want to replicate a directory" is basically always rsync -a --delete |
| 21:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which will preserve not only links but also times, ownership, and device files |
| 21:50 | <&McMartin> | What does --delete do there? |
| 21:50 | <@Tamber> | Remove the things that exist in the destination, but not in the source. |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | Aha |
| 21:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, that makes it "mirror" rather than "merge with" |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | Good to know, thanks. |
| 21:51 | | * McMartin nods |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | (When I've faced this in the past, it's been on OSX as opposed to Generic Posix, and they have a special CLI tool called 'ditto' for handling this) |
| 21:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | ISTR Pinky complaining at one point that OSX rsync has a horrific memory leak, although hopefully they've fixed it by now |
| 22:01 | | * McMartin nods |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | I was figuring that rsync didn't know about the extra markers that OSX adds to represent bundles and resource force &c |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | resource forks* |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | rsync however does precisely what I need here, so cheers |
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| 22:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | OSX still uses forked files? |
| 22:17 | <&McMartin> | No. |
| 22:17 | <&McMartin> | Never did |
| 22:17 | <&McMartin> | Faked it with FS attributes in an otherwise POSIX-y file system, but it had the same issues that cp always has with things like that |
| 22:17 | <&McMartin> | (You know who technically *does* still have resource forks? NTFS. Nobody uses them for anything but invisible transient state, and only MS even does that, but they're there) |
| 22:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | So I guess my question is "why does it need to fake them at all" |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | "Because the OS has a notion of them that still hasn't entirely faded" |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | In the most general sense, this is kind of like asking "why do my chips have instructions that are not subtract-and-branch-if-negative" |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | OS X continues to mark some directories as "special" and to be treated under most circumstances as if they were files that nevertheless have subdirectories. |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | This is because most documents and all native graphical applications are actually directories in POSIX terms, not files, and so there's a similar divide to the one you see in other OSes between archives and navigating "through" an archive into its contents |
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| --- Log closed Sat Mar 14 00:00:51 2015 |