| --- Log opened Fri Jul 25 00:00:41 2014 |
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| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | Today in C++ land: learning the difference between std::list and std::deque the hard way |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | (std::list is more efficient at mid-container insertion and removal; std::deque allows you to do pointer arithmetic on iterators that is not ++ or --) |
| 04:16 | <&McMartin> | (Which I guess results in "deque is random-access") |
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| 10:20 | | * TheWatcher readsup |
| 10:21 | <@TheWatcher> | the joys of linked list v dynamic array |
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| 11:15 | <@TheWatcher> | Anyone recommend a mysql database schema visualiser? MySQL workbench appears to hate this machine and is refusing to start... |
| --- Log closed Fri Jul 25 11:36:50 2014 |
| --- Log opened Fri Jul 25 11:37:25 2014 |
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| 11:58 | <@RchrdB> | TheWatcher, all the people I knwo who use MySQL use Navicat. |
| 11:58 | <@RchrdB> | I have no idea what it's like. |
| 11:59 | <@TheWatcher> | Thanks, I'll give it a look |
| 12:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Although I found I can get mysql workbench to run by forcing it to use the intel graphics rather than nvidia on this laptop |
| 12:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Because optimus >.< |
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| 14:29 | | * TheWatcher spreads this schema diagram out over his desk |
| 14:32 | <@TheWatcher> | Funny how it's easier to get a handle on it like this... |
| 14:52 | | * ToxicFrog stabs python over and over and over and over again |
| 14:53 | <@ErikMesoy> | *python disgorges an elephant, Little Prince-style |
| 15:10 | <@Azash> | TheWatcher: We have these half-cubicles, like coloured glass rising maybe a foot above the desk |
| 15:10 | <@Azash> | Mine is covered in taped-up gridded A4's sketched full of architecture and DB diagram |
| 15:11 | <@Azash> | Much handier than generating anything |
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| 16:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Ruby. I have an array of bytes. |
| 16:40 | <@Tarinaky> | I need to group contiguous bytes into sets, the size of which is determined by a variable. |
| 16:40 | <@Tarinaky> | i.e. every pair of bytes in this list is a sample. |
| 16:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Or should that be eg? |
| 16:41 | <@Tamber> | "That is" or "For example" |
| 16:41 | <@Tamber> | ? |
| 16:42 | <@Tarinaky> | For example. |
| 16:43 | <@ErikMesoy> | eg = exempli gratia, ie = id est |
| 16:43 | <@Tarinaky> | I care more about getting my Ruby working than my English right now |
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| 16:44 | <@Tarinaky> | If it helps, I'm obtaining my list of bytes from a string. |
| 16:44 | <@Tarinaky> | (Although I'll clarify that the string does not represent a string - semantically it's a list of numbers) |
| 16:44 | <@ErikMesoy> | Your program is for the semester, good English and Latin are for life. *nods sagely* |
| 16:47 | <@Tarinaky> | Unless you live in a country whose language isn't Romance-based or English. |
| 16:47 | <@Tarinaky> | In which case English is 'just another job skill' |
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| 17:33 | <@ErikMesoy> | I am cringing from reading the open alpha test feedback from people who aren't professional testers after the designer of a game asked for *feature suggestions*. |
| 17:34 | <@ErikMesoy> | Umpteen variations on "You should add a subsystem for my pet cause", "You should add smart procedural generation of quests", "You should add smart procedural generation of NPCs" (with dialogue!), "You should add the moon on a silver platter". |
| 17:38 | <@ErikMesoy> | Ooh, here's a nice trinity of things that make one another exponentially worse: person who wants persistent open world (moon enough by itself, that one), person who wants online multiplayer, person who wants infinite character growth. |
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| 17:39 | <@Tarinaky> | In fairness, online multiplayer isn't /that/ hard. |
| 17:39 | <@Tarinaky> | It's more or less a solved problem. |
| 17:40 | <@ErikMesoy> | Tarinaky: It is when you're a one-man dev team working in RPG Maker. |
| 17:40 | <@Tarinaky> | I wasn't aware we were able to sell RPG Maker games for actual money now. |
| 17:40 | <@Tarinaky> | I thought those were things 14 year olds made |
| 17:40 | <@Tarinaky> | They added Scripting in Ruby of all things. |
| 17:42 | <@ErikMesoy> | Online multiplayer is a reasonable request for an RPG in the abstract. I agree with that. |
| 17:43 | <@Tarinaky> | It's not exactly trying to parse old-school binary file formats in Ruby *swears* |
| 17:43 | <@ErikMesoy> | But infinite character growth fucks over online multiplayer (oh hey, there's level 2393 XxDrizztXx who plays 14 hours a day), and online multiplayer fucks over persistent open world (look, here are a million penises painted on the landscape by XxWeed420Xx who draws penises all day) etc. |
| 17:45 | <@ErikMesoy> | This guy wishes for a "keep playing as victor" system so that whenever the main character is defeated, the character can continue the adventure as whatever creature defeated the character, instead of getting a Game Over. |
| 17:45 | <@ErikMesoy> | That could be a neat central game mechanic the way regeneration was in Planescape. As an added feature suggestion? I doubt it. |
| 17:47 | <@ErikMesoy> | Oh it gets better. Someone pipes up to say that that's ridiculously difficult and time-consuming and unrealistic and whatnot, and the proposer says "Well, you could make it an anthropomorphic version, instead of that exact monster". |
| 17:48 | <@ErikMesoy> | He goes on to detail a proposal where there will be a furry (he doesn't use that word, but that's what it would basically come out to) version of every monster. |
| 17:49 | <@ErikMesoy> | This *slightly* mitigates the problem of realism (strictly speaking, verisimilitude) by continuing the game as a lion-man instead of a plain lion. It makes pretty much every other aspect worse. |
| 17:49 | <@ErikMesoy> | I have suddenly gained a lot of respect for the concept of "professional game tester". |
| 17:50 | <@ErikMesoy> | Because these unprofessional ones are essentially demanding the game be a tabletop game in computer form with a complete AI for a DM. |
| 17:59 | <@RchrdB> | one day I'm going to become rich and famous by making procedural generation of actually-fun quests and/or cheap manual generation of NPCs |
| 17:59 | <@RchrdB> | but I think that actually-fun quests procedurally is probably impossible |
| 17:59 | <@RchrdB> | not definitely impossible :) |
| 18:01 | <@RchrdB> | The one thing I think goes in favour of making silly quests procedurally is that, if you have a million quests that are variations of "go to that field over there, kill Embiggened Lesser Blight Wolves until you have forty little embiggening pelts of Blight, then deliver them to the blacksmith of Sidequestvania"... |
| 18:01 | <@ErikMesoy> | RchrdB: What strikes me as a bound here is the tradeoff between coherence and number. |
| 18:01 | <@RchrdB> | ...well, those quests are so utterly boring that you may as well generate them procedurally because the poor bastard human who did it certainly wasn't enjoying their job of having to come up with inane dialogue at the time. |
| 18:02 | < [R]> | Tarinaky: so you want something like: ['aaa', 'aa', 'b', 'ccc', 'dd', 'e', 'k', 'oo']? (Assuming max set size of 3) |
| 18:02 | <@RchrdB> | like really you should only bother to have a human being write a quest if it's going to be an actually-interesting quest. :) |
| 18:02 | <@ErikMesoy> | If you favor coherence, you might end up with something like a "tree" of possible quest variations where it takes less but still nontrivial work to draw which quest components can sensibly be plugged into one another. |
| 18:03 | <@RchrdB> | Oh, there's an idea. |
| 18:03 | <@ErikMesoy> | And if you favor number by letting all the components plug into each other, you get "The Princess of Wherever wishes you to collect forty Blight Pelts and deliver them to the Blacksmith of Othersideofworldia". |
| 18:03 | <@RchrdB> | You ever played Transport Tycoon? OpenTTD is free and open source if you haven't. |
| 18:03 | <@ErikMesoy> | Yes. |
| 18:03 | <@ErikMesoy> | Long time ago though |
| 18:04 | <@RchrdB> | For fun, come up with a quest system that has a bunch of NPCs that generate fetch quests like TTD |
| 18:04 | <@RchrdB> | e.g. murder goblins at the mines to get ore, deliver them to the smelter, which causes some other poor bastard to get set a fetch quest to take ingots from the smelter to the blacksmith... ;) |
| 18:05 | <@RchrdB> | You can get some genuinely interesting things to happen to the economy in MMOs by making high-level players need something that only low-level players can get. |
| 18:06 | <@ErikMesoy> | Right. But EVE Online already delivers "economy quests", and those have practically stopped being quests. There's just an economy. People want stuff. |
| 18:07 | <@RchrdB> | Mm. I think that having NPCs doing that (at slightly unfavourable rates) is still a good idea, to bootstrap the player economy. |
| 18:07 | <@ErikMesoy> | Making it engaging and quest-like gets you back to the difficulty with procedurally generating something that interfaces with human social systems (? not sure how to put this) |
| 18:07 | <@RchrdB> | I see what you mean there and I think I agree with you; having it be the actual economy that asks for things to be dragged from place to place is much more interesting. |
| 18:08 | <@ErikMesoy> | Outdoing the bots, basically? |
| 18:09 | <@RchrdB> | I think you also should put in a fake NPC economy with slightly unfavourable rates so that a) players don't get "stuck" with nowhere to sell stuff when the player base is too small for the demand for a given commodity to have come up, and b) make the rates unfavourable so that people naturally feel pressure to move off the NPC economy as the PC economy picks up. |
| 18:09 | <@ErikMesoy> | Sounds good |
| 18:10 | <@Tarinaky> | [R]: For a given set of samples, the sample size is the same. |
| 18:10 | <@ErikMesoy> | Now I'm reminded of one of the silliest currencies in City of Heroes: outdated consumables. |
| 18:10 | <@Tarinaky> | [R]: So I want something like ['XX', 'XX', 'XX',... ] (for sample size 2) |
| 18:10 | <@RchrdB> | a fully player-driven economy sounds awesome but I bet that most projects trying to make one fall flat on their faces because their economy needs hundreds of traders forming a massive directed graph with cycles in it, but the actual population is much smaller to begin with. |
| 18:10 | <@RchrdB> | ErikMesoy, ooh? =) |
| 18:11 | <@ErikMesoy> | A certain type of consumable was phased out, and the devs figured the existing ones would be consumed and cease to be a thing to worry about. But instead, a handful of those consumables stayed in as luxury trade and status display goods. |
| 18:11 | <@ErikMesoy> | On the market you could constantly see a few of them being offered at prices in the millions. |
| 18:11 | <@RchrdB> | Is this like, they replace all the old potion recipes with new potion recipes, and the old potions don't work anymore, but you can still have them, and you can still trade them, so they suddenly start to develop rarity value? |
| 18:11 | <@ErikMesoy> | Even though a hundred currency would get you an updated consumable doing roughly the same. |
| 18:11 | <@ErikMesoy> | Yes. |
| 18:11 | <@Tarinaky> | A full player-driven economy typically falls flat because economies have a whole host of issues that make them unfun. |
| 18:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Like inflation |
| 18:12 | <@Tarinaky> | And the fact that there's no 'balance' mechanic to stop an oligarchy getting an extreme advantage that stops anyone else competing. |
| 18:12 | <@ErikMesoy> | And grinding. |
| 18:12 | <@ErikMesoy> | "I already work one job." |
| 18:13 | <@Tarinaky> | See also: Monopoly. |
| 18:13 | <@RchrdB> | Hmm. |
| 18:13 | <@ErikMesoy> | Monopoly is a badly designed leftover game from the early era of shitty board games. |
| 18:13 | <@Tarinaky> | And the common unspoken rule in most games that include a 'trading' mechanic don't allow futures. |
| 18:13 | <@ErikMesoy> | If you proposed it today, ze Germans would have VORDS with you. |
| 18:13 | <@Tarinaky> | ErikMesoy: Wikipedia says Monopoly was originally designed as an anti-game to illustrate how Capitalism was bad. |
| 18:14 | <@ErikMesoy> | Tarinaky: Doesn't change the underlying point. |
| 18:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Or at least, the property market/buy-to-rent market. |
| 18:14 | <@Tarinaky> | The Germans have already had 'words' with Monopoly. |
| 18:15 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, that's a good question. Why DON'T, say, Eve or Spiral Knights or Warcrack allow a futures economy? =D |
| 18:15 | <@Tarinaky> | Powergrid is amazing. |
| 18:15 | <@RchrdB> | it would be kinda interesting |
| 18:15 | <@Tarinaky> | I thought Eve did. |
| 18:15 | <@RchrdB> | Eve does? Cool. :3 |
| 18:15 | <@RchrdB> | How is delivery enforced? |
| 18:15 | <@Tarinaky> | It's unsecured futures. |
| 18:15 | <@ErikMesoy> | RchrdB: I think part of it is the potential for RL economists and governments to poke their noses in it. |
| 18:15 | <@Tarinaky> | So if you don't pay back what you owe they go round and break your space ships I guess. |
| 18:16 | <@RchrdB> | ErikMesoy, very much so. |
| 18:17 | <@Tarinaky> | RchrdB: If everyone around the table is 'into' economy, and has had enough drinks that they're more interested in a mind-fuck than an engaging gaming experience getting some paper and playing Settlers of the Futures Market is actually a lot of fun. |
| 18:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Or so I'm informed. |
| 18:17 | <@RchrdB> | Cool. |
| 18:17 | <@Tarinaky> | But it's more like Mao than a fair boardgame. |
| 18:17 | <@RchrdB> | I love Mao! Briefly. :) |
| 18:18 | <@RchrdB> | The reason I find the topic of economies in MMOs interesting is that, while I know exceedingly little about economics, I suspect that real economists don't either, and... |
| 18:18 | <@RchrdB> | ...they're really good sandpits for fucking with the economy and watching everything go topsy turvy, just for shits and giggles. |
| 18:18 | <@Tarinaky> | If you do it though I recommend breaking the rules of Settlers itself and allowing secured finance as well. |
| 18:19 | <@Tarinaky> | (i.e. you can take out a mortgage to pay for a city~) |
| 18:19 | <@Tarinaky> | (and if you don't keep up with repayments the other players can forclose on you) |
| 18:19 | <@ErikMesoy> | RchrdB: A big problem with using the MMO economy as a model is the high level of discreteness and honesty involved. |
| 18:19 | <@Tarinaky> | The discard half your hand on a 7 if you have a large hand helps keep the inflation in Settlers under control. |
| 18:19 | <@ErikMesoy> | If Bob is selling a +2 sword, Carol cannot try to undercut Bob with a +1.9 sword |
| 18:20 | <@ErikMesoy> | And Carol *usually* cannot try to pass off a +1 sword as a +2 sword and undercut Bob that way |
| 18:20 | <@RchrdB> | e.g. I remember playing one crappy F2P MMO called "FlyFF" ages ago, where they ran an event wherein there was a super-powerful unique artefact sword that was available in return for trading in a bunch of animal corpses⦠|
| 18:21 | <@RchrdB> | â¦only, one of the mechanics they had was that the drop rate for animal corpses depends on your level (monsters closest to your own level have the highest drop rates), and if you're high enough level, the drop rate goes to zero |
| 18:21 | <@Tarinaky> | ErikMesoy: Path of Exile somewhat dealt with those some of those issues by removing money from the game (barter only) |
| 18:21 | <@Tarinaky> | And the different bartar-designed consumables, obviously, have different values for different people. |
| 18:21 | <@RchrdB> | â¦so the whole economy went hilariously batshit with high-level players bribing lowbies to slay low-level monsters for them so that they could get the pelts to trade in before the week was up. =) |
| 18:22 | < ToxicFrog> | Holy shit it should not be this hard to iterate over two vectors sequentially |
| 18:22 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, I'm not sure if barter-only is that interesting? Like Diablo 2 degenerates into barter-only because the in-game gold is actually worthless⦠|
| 18:23 | <@ErikMesoy> | Diablo 2 ended up with a de facto currency: Stones of Jordan :D |
| 18:23 | <@ErikMesoy> | (unique powerful ring, taking up little inventory space, valuable to all classes) |
| 18:23 | <@RchrdB> | â¦but players still managed currency-based trading by using a specific artefact with a low-ish drop rate called the "stone of Jordan" as a de-facto currency :) |
| 18:23 | < ToxicFrog> | Does anyone here speak C++? |
| 18:26 | <@Tarinaky> | RchrdB: It's heavily based on Diablo 2. |
| 18:26 | <@Tarinaky> | RchrdB: It's basically Diablo 2 with every feature any 14 year old has ever said "Wouldn't it be cool if..." |
| 18:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Or at least, 14 year olds from my cohort. |
| 18:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Plenty of 'Stones of Jordan' like items. |
| 18:29 | <@ErikMesoy> | It's not a very good de facto currency if there are plenty of them. >_> |
| 18:30 | <@Tarinaky> | Plenty of /different/ ones. |
| 18:30 | <@Tarinaky> | High level skill gems. |
| 18:31 | <@ErikMesoy> | Yes, different ones is what I meant. |
| 18:31 | <@Tarinaky> | And /most/ the consumable items relate to turning mundane items into magic ones of various types. |
| 18:31 | <@ErikMesoy> | There have to be multiple drops of something to make a useful currency. |
| 18:31 | | * Tarinaky shrugs. |
| 18:31 | <@Tarinaky> | I think, if you're making a bartar based economy, that not having a fungible currency is part of the point. |
| 18:33 | <@ErikMesoy> | Barter based economies are a nuisance. |
| 18:34 | <@ErikMesoy> | Is this combined with an inventory cap to limit people's ability to amass wealth? |
| 18:35 | <@Tarinaky> | You have to buy additional pages of inventory for your stash from the owners |
| 18:37 | <@Tarinaky> | It's not like in-game money has any value 2 years after game launch anyway |
| 18:37 | <@Tarinaky> | Or at least, the last server roll-back. |
| 18:37 | <@Tarinaky> | Haven't seen any sensible answers to inflation. |
| 18:39 | | * ErikMesoy makes his usual nitpick about splitting appreciation and dilution. (The former means prices increase, the latter means money is created, "inflation" can refer to the combination or to both.) |
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| 18:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Don't they occur hand in hand? |
| 18:40 | <@ErikMesoy> | Usually, yes. |
| 18:40 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not sure what your nit-pick is. |
| 18:40 | <@ErikMesoy> | Dilution is almost unfixable if you want new people to be able to get money from a "faucet" of money in the game (usually resulting in the concomitant creation of "sinks" where money leaves a player into the void) rather than from another player. |
| 18:41 | <@ErikMesoy> | Appreciation is fixable by having NPCs provide all goods at some fixed price. |
| 18:41 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not sure I agree with that 'fix'. |
| 18:42 | <@ErikMesoy> | I'm not sure I agree with it either. But I'm demonstrating that it's possible to make one occur without the other. |
| 18:43 | <@Tarinaky> | No. I mean if you 'fix' the prices, and still create money all you do is further devalue the money. |
| 18:43 | <@Tarinaky> | Because now the players have money they can't spend on anything useful. |
| 18:43 | <@Tarinaky> | because they've already bought all the potions they needed |
| 18:44 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: I've yet to see a successful attempt to create money sinks. |
| 18:44 | <@ErikMesoy> | Hi-potions, magicmart and vanity items might be fixes to that. |
| 18:44 | <@Tarinaky> | ErikMesoy: And then Hi-hi-potions? |
| 18:44 | <@ErikMesoy> | Something like that |
| 18:44 | <@Tarinaky> | Presumably there is only a finite number of magic items the player can use at once. |
| 18:44 | <@ErikMesoy> | Diablo 2 had five grades of potions, iirc |
| 18:45 | <@ErikMesoy> | The player could buy bigger numbers on their items. |
| 18:45 | <@Tarinaky> | And selling vanity items for in-game cash doesn't get the developers anything. |
| 18:54 | < ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: gambling in D2 was a highly successful money sink. |
| 18:55 | < ToxicFrog> | Well, depending on what you mean by "successful"; it didn't actually do anything to make money valuable to players~ |
| 18:57 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
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| 19:54 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-s5d.ntf.224.119.IP] has joined #code |
| 19:54 | | mode/#code [+o Orthia] by ChanServ |
| 20:12 | <@Tarinaky> | http://gfycat.com/KindheartedWigglyApe |
| 20:14 | <@Tamber> | ...ha |
| 20:17 | <@Alek> | wat |
| 20:19 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:31 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-s5d.ntf.224.119.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 20:35 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-s5d.ntf.224.119.IP] has joined #code |
| 20:35 | | mode/#code [+o Orthia] by ChanServ |
| 20:53 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-s5d.ntf.224.119.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 20:53 | <@ErikMesoy> | I don't get it |
| 20:58 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-s5d.ntf.224.119.IP] has joined #code |
| 20:58 | | mode/#code [+o Orthia] by ChanServ |
| 21:10 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 21:52 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-s5d.ntf.224.119.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
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| 21:57 | | mode/#code [+o Orthia] by ChanServ |
| 22:14 | | * froztbyte looks around |
| 22:15 | <@froztbyte> | I have two giftable steam games atm from the Humble Bundle; Lara Croft & The Guardian Of Light, and DX:GOTY |
| 22:15 | <@froztbyte> | anyone want? |
| 22:16 | <@froztbyte> | err, E_CHAN |
| 22:17 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-g2q2tu.customer.tdc.net] has joined #code |
| 22:17 | | mode/#code [+o Checkmate] by ChanServ |
| 22:21 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-s5d.ntf.224.119.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 22:27 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-s5d.ntf.224.119.IP] has joined #code |
| 22:27 | | mode/#code [+o Orthia] by ChanServ |
| 22:35 | < Julius> | E_CHAN? |
| 22:43 | < ToxicFrog> | Julius: error: wrong channel |
| 22:44 | < Julius> | Ha. |
| 23:22 | | Desktop_Caboose [IceChat9@Nightstar-ago7bl.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Never put off till tomorrow, what you can do the day after tomorrow] |
| --- Log closed Sat Jul 26 00:00:27 2014 |