| --- Log opened Sun Jun 29 00:00:28 2014 |
| 00:42 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
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| 02:11 | | luke [flukiluke@Nightstar-q2b7ep.blinkenshell.org] has joined #code |
| 02:12 | < luke> | On Windows, do they use / or \ in their C #includes? |
| 02:13 | <&Derakon> | IIRC, generally they get horribly confused by non-flat source code structures. |
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| 02:20 | <@gnolam> | Who are "they" here? :P |
| 02:21 | <&Derakon> | Windows C compilers. |
| 02:21 | <&Derakon> | Visual Studio in specific, I guess. |
| 02:21 | <@gnolam> | Err. |
| 02:21 | <&Derakon> | But this is all pretty murky memory. |
| 02:21 | <@gnolam> | What. |
| 02:22 | <@celticminstrel> | luke: I think usually both are accepted. |
| 02:23 | <@celticminstrel> | I dunno how Visual Studio holds up to non-flat structures, because I "flattened" it by adding all subdirectories to the include path. >_> |
| 02:23 | <&Derakon> | Gnolam: all's I know is I remember people trying to compile Angband on Windows and complaining because it puts some of the code in subdirectories. |
| 02:23 | < luke> | Thanks. |
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| 02:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | luke: the underlying filesystem will accept either. I don't know if the compiler/IDE will get confused. |
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| 05:07 | < Harlow> | anyone know of anything that is going to be big in the next 10 years? |
| 05:08 | < luke> | US debt? |
| 05:10 | < Harlow> | lol yes, but not what i was referring to, things like smart watches |
| 05:10 | < Harlow> | new technology, that sort of stuff |
| 05:11 | <@Namegduf> | It's all going to be about electronic crockery |
| 05:11 | <@Namegduf> | Cups and plates that know what you're eating and tell you exactly what will be delicious and maintain your health at once, powered by big data. |
| 05:12 | | * Namegduf is not being very serious. |
| 05:12 | <@Namegduf> | Home electronics is probably the safest bet. |
| 05:12 | <@Namegduf> | Look at what the markets are pricing as valuable. |
| 05:13 | <@Namegduf> | Guessing what is going to be big next is these people's job, and they're going to do better at it than most others. |
| 05:13 | <@Namegduf> | Nest and whatnot. |
| 05:15 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:26 | < luke> | We'll probably be seeing a large increase in the number of coffee pots supporting HTCPCP, especially with support for Teapots recently added. |
| 05:48 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 05:51 | | * Alek snerks. |
| 05:52 | <@Alek> | I figure 3D printers will take off more. |
| 05:52 | <@Alek> | they won't be a household item for a while yet, but definitely a hobbyist item. |
| 05:53 | <@Alek> | a boon for lots of hobbyists at that. |
| 05:53 | <@Alek> | imagine printing decorations and spare parts for that train-set landscape in your basement. |
| 05:54 | <@Alek> | models for your wargame. |
| 05:54 | <@Alek> | etc. |
| 05:54 | <@Alek> | replacement guitar picks by the dozen. |
| 05:54 | <@Alek> | novelty "business cards" by the hundred. |
| 05:55 | <@Alek> | credit-card-format skeleton keys for the house. lost your house key? dig out the wallet. |
| 05:55 | <@Namegduf> | The thing is that it's like £5 for 100 business cards |
| 05:55 | <@Namegduf> | And that's properly printed |
| 05:56 | <@Alek> | that's paper. |
| 05:56 | <@Namegduf> | It's card, specifically |
| 05:56 | <@Namegduf> | Apparently their non-offer price is £10 |
| 05:56 | <@Alek> | I'm talking about novelty. plastic stuff. like sliding puzzles that assemble your logo. |
| 05:56 | <@Namegduf> | If 3D printers get cheap, that could happen, yeah |
| 05:56 | <@Alek> | they're fairly cheap already. |
| 05:57 | <@Namegduf> | Not at the quality required for these items to not look silly./ |
| 05:57 | <@Alek> | there's even machines available for recycling plastics into feedstock. |
| 05:57 | <@Alek> | oh, you might be surprised. |
| 05:57 | < luke> | I just hope they don't go the way of regular printers, where the ink ends up costing more than the machine. |
| 05:57 | <@Namegduf> | You're talking multiple thousands, tens of to get really good things. |
| 05:57 | <@Alek> | they can make some pretty good stuff from a $300 printer already. |
| 05:57 | <@Namegduf> | The thing is that I don't need more worthless tat |
| 05:58 | <@Namegduf> | I am already having to make explicit efforts to reduce my worthless tat load |
| 05:58 | <@Alek> | there've been several different $300 printers kicked in the past couple years. |
| 05:58 | <@Alek> | tat? |
| 05:58 | <@Namegduf> | It's hard to translate. |
| 05:59 | <@Namegduf> | I guess "shit" in the sense of "low quality unwanted stuff that clutters places up and may have highly situational or no purpose". |
| 05:59 | <@Alek> | and if you're talking about the miscellaneous plastic items, like I said, there's cheap-ish machines that can recycle them (as long as they're single-type) into new feedstock to put in a printer. |
| 05:59 | <@Namegduf> | Things like novelty mugs, holders for various things, novelty pens... |
| 05:59 | <@Namegduf> | The thing is that I might need a plastic replacement part... what, twice a year? |
| 05:59 | <@Namegduf> | Less? |
| 05:59 | <@Alek> | that's you, not everyone. |
| 06:00 | <@Namegduf> | I think it's probably most people who don't wargame or have model trains. |
| 06:00 | <@Alek> | there's also supposedly maker shops that let people come in and print up stuff, for a fee. |
| 06:00 | <@Namegduf> | Maker shops are a much more interesting idea to me |
| 06:00 | <@Alek> | which is probably better for the casual person. |
| 06:00 | <@Namegduf> | They can afford the ten thousand dollar plus machines that do good quality |
| 06:00 | <@Alek> | I haven't heard of any locally. there might be a few in the big city. |
| 06:00 | <@Namegduf> | Finding designs would be tricky |
| 06:00 | <@Alek> | haha |
| 06:01 | <@Alek> | there literally are millions of designs floating around, AND most machines can take designs from most 3D programs. |
| 06:01 | <@Namegduf> | I am admittedly personally picky quality wise. I like Apple's sense of design, although I don't own their hardware, and it is roughly how I approach my apartment. |
| 06:01 | <@Alek> | so you can either google it or make your own in autocad or 3dmax. |
| 06:02 | <@Alek> | or was it 3dsmax? |
| 06:02 | <@Namegduf> | Making my own in autocad means it costs me time, which runs roughly £12/hr (~$19/hr) |
| 06:02 | <@Namegduf> | Unless I need volume, it's cheaper to buy at that point |
| 06:02 | <@Alek> | and of course many machines have a library of designs. |
| 06:02 | <@Namegduf> | Libraries are interesting, though |
| 06:03 | <@Namegduf> | I could see browsing them, printing stuff off... but, there's Argos. |
| 06:03 | | celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep |
| 06:03 | <@Alek> | sometimes you need a rare part that's hard to find, or hard to ship, or you need it posthaste. |
| 06:03 | <@Alek> | there's websites that are basically design libraries. |
| 06:03 | <@Namegduf> | I don't know if there's an American equivalent to Argos. |
| 06:03 | <@macdjord> | I am personally of the opinion that 3D printers and rapid prototyping are likely to be the next transformative technology - as in, changeing society the way fax, email, and cell phones did. No idea if it'll benin the next decade, though. |
| 06:03 | <@Namegduf> | Argos is a "catalogue store", the store just contains catelogues on stands. |
| 06:04 | <@Alek> | hah, no, I don't think that exists in the US. |
| 06:04 | <@Namegduf> | You go through them, pick out what you want, and take the list of item numbers to someone, they get it from the huge storeroom. |
| 06:04 | <@Namegduf> | Which is not on display. |
| 06:04 | <@Alek> | not any more. |
| 06:04 | <@Alek> | there've been stores along those lines before. |
| 06:04 | <@Alek> | actually, there MAY be some still. but rather niche. |
| 06:04 | <@Namegduf> | Argos are probably the best local competitor to Amazon on price. |
| 06:05 | <@Alek> | mostly for stuff that a: you want in bulk and b: is bulky, so you only have a catalogue and maybe samples. |
| 06:05 | | * Alek shrugs. |
| 06:05 | <@Namegduf> | The rest of the high street still exists, but Argos is the only one I've seen manage to match or near-match Amazon prices with any consistency. |
| 06:05 | <@Alek> | I really don't remember seeing any catalogue stores around. |
| 06:05 | <@Namegduf> | Anyways, a 3D printing shop strikes me as similar. |
| 06:05 | <@Namegduf> | There's a library, you pick what you want, but instead of a stockroom they make it for you. |
| 06:06 | <@Alek> | a maker shop will probably have a few workers to help people find designs, too. |
| 06:06 | <@Namegduf> | Eh. Workers are very expensive, and retail struggles to compete from them. Best not to overpromise there. |
| 06:06 | <@Namegduf> | Maybe. |
| 06:06 | <@Alek> | hmm. maker shops will most likely take over part of the niche for dollar stores AND hobby shops. |
| 06:07 | <@Alek> | mainly in the plastic tchotchke niche. |
| 06:07 | <@Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 06:07 | <@Namegduf> | The thing is that discount stores do a lot of stuff that isn't those. |
| 06:08 | <@Alek> | yeah, I know. a lot of not-really-as-cheap-as-you-think foodstuffs in dollar stores, for example. |
| 06:08 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah. |
| 06:08 | <@Alek> | and fabrics, paints, glues, wires, woods in hobby shops. |
| 06:08 | <@Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 06:08 | <@Alek> | but they DO have a ton of plastic tchotchkes, like wedding or party decorations. |
| 06:08 | <@Alek> | and you could probably prototype glass too. |
| 06:10 | <@Alek> | a hobby shop has quite a bit of glass breakage regularly. having a local recycler to remake glass and plastic into feedstock might help. |
| 06:11 | <@Alek> | not to mention being able to supply any given amount on demand. my brother's wedding took a LOT of stuff from the local Hobby Lobby. |
| 06:11 | <@Alek> | including glass vases of various kinds. |
| 06:14 | <@macdjord> | Note: My 'transformative technology' prediction is based on proper /rapid prototyping/, not just 3D printing. |
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| 06:25 | <@Alek> | there's actually 3D printers that can print foodstuffs. |
| 06:25 | <@Alek> | there's one for chocolate. |
| 06:25 | <@Namegduf> | The thing is that single-substance foodstuffs are kinda crap, too., |
| 06:26 | <@Namegduf> | Even with chocolate, I don't want solid chocolate shapes, I want filling, flavourings, nuts, etc. |
| 06:30 | < luke> | Fussy, aren't we. |
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| 06:34 | <@Namegduf> | Not really. Just given the alternative between two things I choose the better. |
| 06:35 | <@Namegduf> | 3D printing might one day be able to compete on price enough to overwehlm quality differences, but this decade... I'm doubtful. |
| 06:35 | <@Alek> | you CAN make them with fillings. just have the machine pause just before closing off the hollow, so you can fill it in. :D |
| 06:36 | <@Namegduf> | The thing is that I don't consider my time utterly worthless. |
| 06:36 | <@Namegduf> | I think I'd pay at least £1 just to get an item off my internal todo list, so I got to things I needed to do sooner, regardless of what it was. |
| 06:36 | <@Alek> | mmm. |
| 06:37 | <@Alek> | that's you. |
| 06:37 | <@Namegduf> | I don't build my own furniture. |
| 06:37 | <@Alek> | not everyone is like that. |
| 06:37 | <@Alek> | different people prefer to do things differently. |
| 06:37 | <@Namegduf> | I think pretty much everyone has a small range of things in which they enjoy spending time and will go to extra work, and a large bulk of things in which they will do whatever is easiest at a significant premium. |
| 06:37 | <@Alek> | so please, don't assume that just because you wouldn't like something, that nobody would. |
| 06:38 | <@Alek> | these ranges differ from person to person, as does what is included in the ranges. |
| 06:38 | <@Alek> | some people prefer to build things with their own hands. |
| 06:38 | <@Alek> | some prefer to design their own. |
| 06:38 | <@Namegduf> | No one really prefers building *everything* with their own hands. |
| 06:38 | <@Namegduf> | The time does not exist to do that. |
| 06:39 | <@Alek> | mmm. then they share tasks communally, often enough. |
| 06:39 | <@Namegduf> | You cannot build your own furniture, cook your own food from basic components, make your own clothes... |
| 06:39 | <@Namegduf> | Build your own electronics... |
| 06:39 | <@Alek> | heh. |
| 06:39 | <@Namegduf> | And concurrently hold down a full time job. |
| 06:39 | <@Alek> | but if you make all your own, do you really need a full time job as well? |
| 06:39 | <@Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 06:39 | <@Namegduf> | Because doing all those things by hand is actually *more* expensive. |
| 06:40 | <@Alek> | well, sorta. |
| 06:40 | <@Alek> | if you also get your own raw materials, that's a savings too. |
| 06:40 | <@Alek> | or barter for them. |
| 06:40 | <@Namegduf> | Barter what? |
| 06:40 | <@Namegduf> | The amounts I'm talking about are just for personal or family use. |
| 06:40 | <@Namegduf> | And you aren't going to get better results bartering your time than selling it with a job. |
| 06:41 | <@Namegduf> | You're going to end up with a lower effective hourly wage. |
| 06:41 | <@Alek> | people used to spend free winter evenings making stuff, like whittling spoons, knitting extra socks, etc, that they would trade to neighbors. they would also trade off helping each other with large tasks. |
| 06:42 | <@Namegduf> | Yes, back before the industrial revolution. |
| 06:42 | <@Alek> | it's a tradeoff, often enough. |
| 06:42 | <@Namegduf> | Now people can get three times the stuff at a third the price from factories. |
| 06:42 | <@Namegduf> | And it's better quality. |
| 06:42 | <@Alek> | and only a third as many people have stable work. |
| 06:42 | <@Namegduf> | Actually no. |
| 06:43 | <@Alek> | ok, yeah, that was an exaggeration. |
| 06:43 | <@Namegduf> | To a large extent, people just have better stuff. There were severe labour market problems for a while but those got better as white collar work basically emerged. |
| 06:43 | <@Alek> | but still. in the last few decades especially, especially in the US, it's been harder to earn a survival wage. |
| 06:43 | <@Namegduf> | As well as the increase in stuff meaning more maintenance work. |
| 06:44 | <@Namegduf> | It has, but that's pretty long after the industrial revolution. |
| 06:44 | <@Namegduf> | It's more gearing up for another one. |
| 06:44 | <@Namegduf> | This one might do the same, might not. |
| 06:45 | <@Namegduf> | The point is that money can be exchanged for goods and/or sevices, and trading in goods rather than money won't get you any inherent advantage, and neither will trading in manual labour where you could be doing white collar work for more money. |
| 06:45 | <@Namegduf> | If demand wouldn't exist to pay you to do the work, it also won't exist through barter. |
| 06:46 | <@Namegduf> | You can't make something viable just by switching the currency. |
| 06:47 | <@Namegduf> | It's unlikely anyone hand-building all their own stuff can do it to a precision and at a price that competes with factories when their components are more expensive because everything is cheaper to do in bulk. |
| 06:48 | <@Namegduf> | We had that contest a long time ago, and the hand-building people lost. |
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| 07:52 | <@froztbyte> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBjoWMA5d84 |
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| 08:22 | <@froztbyte> | http://finalpatch.blogspot.com/2014/06/dissecting-128-byte-raycaster.html |
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| 08:51 | <@Alek> | hnng |
| 08:53 | <@Alek> | brings back memories of a) the maze screensaver and b) writing, in TI-BASIC, a crappy wolfenstein clone on my TI-86 (or was it 89?) and only getting as far as the maze itself before realizing it was slow as all hell. |
| 08:54 | <@Alek> | never did figure out if there was actually a way to program in TI assembly directly on the calc - there was assembly code given on the TI forums, but no instructions on how to get it on the calcs. |
| 08:55 | <@Alek> | other than via data transfer cables. which didn't really help when it was source code. |
| 09:18 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
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| 20:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Alek: you can't program asm directly on the calc (unless you install an editor and assembler which are themselves written in asm) |
| 20:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | You need to download the source, assemble it on the computer, and then load it over data cable. |
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| 22:08 | <@Alek> | yeaah. |
| 22:08 | <@Alek> | thanks. |
| 22:08 | <@Alek> | a decade too late, but thanks. |
| 22:09 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
| 22:23 | | * Alek points an hour 20 mins ago. |
| 22:23 | <@Alek> | oh. um. |
| 22:23 | <@Alek> | an hour and a half +, now |
| 22:23 | <@celticminstrel> | Why a decade too late? |
| 22:27 | < [R]> | <Alek> brings back memories of a) the maze screensaver and b) writing, in TI-BASIC, a crappy wolfenstein clone on my TI-86 (or was it 89?) and only getting as far as the maze itself before realizing it was slow as all hell. |
| 22:27 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-g2q2tu.customer.tdc.net] has joined #code |
| 22:27 | | mode/#code [+o Checkmate] by ChanServ |
| 22:29 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 22:33 | | JackKnife [Z@Nightstar-g2q2tu.customer.tdc.net] has joined #code |
| 22:33 | | mode/#code [+o JackKnife] by ChanServ |
| 22:33 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-g2q2tu.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 22:33 | | JackKnife is now known as Checkmate |
| 23:00 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-uen1kh.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:10 | <&McMartin> | Retrocoding is still fun >_> |
| 23:26 | | Reiv [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-q8avec.kinect.net.nz] has joined #code |
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| 23:26 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| --- Log closed Mon Jun 30 00:00:44 2014 |