| --- Log opened Wed May 28 00:00:34 2014 |
| 00:23 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 00:29 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:14 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 01:19 | <@JustBob> | Hey, code-crypto-geek sorts. |
| 01:20 | <@JustBob> | Would it be mathematically possible to farm a bitcoin on an abacus of sufficient size? |
| 01:22 | <&McMartin> | It would be mathematically possible to perform the proof of work on it, but part of the protocol requires you to have a network connection, which as a rule, abacuses don't. |
| 01:22 | <&McMartin> | It's also a race against the rest of the world, so your abacus miner is unlikeyl to win that race. |
| 01:22 | <@JustBob> | Well, okay. |
| 01:22 | <&McMartin> | (A bitcoin "mining" is actually verifying a block of transactions) |
| 01:22 | <@JustBob> | But the /math/ itself can be done on an abacus, right? |
| 01:22 | <&McMartin> | Yes. |
| 01:23 | <&McMartin> | But it can't happen in a vaccuum. |
| 01:23 | <&McMartin> | Mining Bitcoins is not like hunting for large primes. |
| 01:29 | <@JustBob> | Right. |
| 01:29 | <@JustBob> | I was just checking on the pure-math side, honestly. Though now I have this mental image of a giant warehouse in china, filled with runners and people doing math on abaci. |
| 01:30 | <&McMartin> | Right. |
| 01:30 | <&McMartin> | The math part is basically three things: |
| 01:30 | <&McMartin> | (a) doing a signature verification check on the purported transaction |
| 01:30 | <&McMartin> | (b) Adding a bit at the end saying I DID THIS ME ME ME AND THEREFORE I GET MONIES LOLZ |
| 01:31 | <&McMartin> | (c) Adding additional random garbage so that when you take the SHA256 of it it starts with N zeroes. |
| 01:31 | <@JustBob> | (Someone mentioned that they've seen a bitcoin miner on an NES. I said that I'd be impressed when I saw it on an abacus. They said that the math wasn't possible on an abacus. I felt obligated to check with people who know better than I do.) |
| 01:31 | <&McMartin> | The value of N varies by how hard it is |
| 01:31 | <&McMartin> | Hrm |
| 01:31 | <&McMartin> | The NES does not have any mathematical capabilities beyond addition and subtraction. |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | It lacks even multiplication, unless you count bit shifting as multiplication. |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | Anything the NES chip can do, an abacus can do. |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | There are certain operations on the abacus that won't be primitive, like modular exponentiation |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | But that's true of the NES, and for that matter, it's true of the huge banks of GPUs. |
| 01:33 | <&Derakon> | So is there some kind of "processor complete" concept similar to a language being Turing-complete? |
| 01:33 | <&McMartin> | Yes. |
| 01:33 | <&McMartin> | One moment |
| 01:33 | <&Derakon> | â¦I guess they did prove that the XNOR operation is adequate to do any computation. |
| 01:33 | <&Derakon> | Or whatever it was. |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer |
| 01:34 | <&Derakon> | Danke. |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | Subtract and Branch if Negative is the classic |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | NAND gates are sufficient to compute any logic function, but those computations do not exist in time the way programs do. |
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| 01:46 | <@Reiv> | So wait, it's a race |
| 01:46 | <@Reiv> | Thus meaning, hn |
| 01:46 | <&Derakon> | A shit-ton of wasted effort, yes. |
| 01:46 | <&Derakon> | But what else is new~ |
| 01:47 | <@Reiv> | If I am in a world of 1000 Computing compeditors, and I am 10 Computing, does this give me a 0% chance of earning bitcoins, or merely a small percentage? |
| 01:47 | <@Reiv> | In a race, the guy ten percent slower certainly never wins ten percent of the time, etc |
| 01:48 | < AnnoDomini> | I *think* it's possible to earn something. But very unlikely. And uneconomical. |
| 01:48 | <@Reiv> | Depreciating returns on weaker hardware then? |
| 01:48 | <&Derakon> | I'm not remotely an expert on this, but I think the mining process is stochastic. |
| 01:48 | <&Derakon> | That is, you're testing numbers to see if they meet a criterion. |
| 01:49 | <&Derakon> | If everyone tested the same numbers in the same order, the guy with the fastest rig would win every time. |
| 01:49 | <@Namegduf> | Everyone starts at a different starting point, because everyone's "I assign this block to me" bit is different. |
| 01:50 | <@Namegduf> | Like a brute force attack, you can estimate average expected time but it is well-distributed, and distributed randomly and unpredictably between people. |
| 01:51 | <@Reiv> | Aha, so it /is/ relative-power based. |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: It's basically 0%. The way you get around it is by colluding with a bunch of other power 10s and splitting the take. |
| 01:51 | <@Namegduf> | Only because you are basically 0% of the network share. |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | There is a line - and it's a pretty high one - below which You Aren't Getting Shit without joining a mining pool. |
| 01:51 | <@Namegduf> | It would, in Reiv's scenario, be 1%. |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | Well, that depends. |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | If there are 100 people with 10 computing, he gets 1%. |
| 01:51 | <@Namegduf> | No. |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | If there are 10 people, one of whom has 900, he gets All Of it. |
| 01:52 | <@Namegduf> | Nope. |
| 01:52 | <@Namegduf> | It really doesn't work that way. |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | OK, and that 900 is hostile. |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | Which is to say, if the 900-power guy is deliberately sniping everything they try to work on with 10x the power they have. |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | He will end up with more than 90%. |
| 01:52 | <@Namegduf> | That's an entirely different problem to the hash thing. |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | Maybe not *exactly* 100% - one of them might get a lucky hash in - but monopolization attacks can theoretically exist. |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | You don't bother because once you have that much of it you can do a cartel attack on the entire notion of hashing at all. |
| 01:53 | <@Namegduf> | You are misunderstanding the mechanism. |
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| 01:53 | <@Namegduf> | If someone has 90% of the processing power, they will 90% of the time generate a block before anyone else. |
| 01:53 | <@Namegduf> | Since they can on their own out-hash everyone else, though, they can just *ignore* everyone else's blocks. |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that's a different thing than what I intend here |
| 01:53 | <@Namegduf> | And their blockchain will outgrow the one incorporating other people's blocks. |
| 01:53 | <@Namegduf> | And they'll be discarded. |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | You're talking about the cartel attack here |
| 01:54 | <@Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | And yeah, that triggers, IIRC, at 34% of computing power. |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | It *should* be 51% but there was a minor flaw in the protocol |
| 01:54 | <@Namegduf> | If you ignore that, there's no sniping, not even any *communication*. |
| 01:54 | <@Namegduf> | You all start at different points, generate psuedorandom numbers, whoever generates the right one first wins a prize. |
| 01:55 | <@Namegduf> | There is no communication other than "round over, I won" during hashing. |
| 01:55 | <@Namegduf> | If someone generates them nine times faster than you, they win nine times as often as you. |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | Hm. Is the distribution that flat? |
| 01:55 | <@Namegduf> | It's a cryptographic hash function. |
| 01:55 | <@Namegduf> | It *has* to be. |
| 01:56 | <@Namegduf> | If the results of adding 1 and rehashing are distinguishable from psuedorandomness, something is fucked up. We don't have attacks on SHA1 that are that good. |
| 01:56 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, if you can apply Statistics to cryptography, your cryptography is as good as broken |
| 01:57 | <@Reiv> | I mean, it isn't /yet/, but it's like knowing where the weak spot in the wall is when you're trying to decide where to shove the TNT. |
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| 01:59 | <@Namegduf> | Back in the earlier days of bitcoin, before GPUs, it was entirely standard to simply assume you generated the same average without a pool as with a pool, except saving the pool's fees but suffering extreme variance. |
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| 01:59 | <@Namegduf> | Nowadays, in theory it'd be the same but the expected time until you win is so high it's quite rare. |
| 01:59 | < Nemu> | Over 65000 days on a standard CPU |
| 02:00 | < Nemu> | GPU helps a bit, but not enough |
| 02:00 | < Nemu> | BTC is ruled by the ASIC miners. They're better, faster, and run more efficiently |
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| 02:00 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, nowadays CPU miners won't pay off electricity costs either way. |
| 02:00 | < Nemu> | Unless the electricity is free |
| 02:00 | <&Derakon> | How many viruses are running BitCoin payloads anyway? |
| 02:01 | < Nemu> | I borrowed the school's cluster for a week or so. Made about $1 a day |
| 02:01 | < Nemu> | Quite a few. Lots of the botnets are moving towards bitcoin mining |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | The ASIC companies seem to be imploding |
| 02:03 | < Nemu> | As in, all failing? I haven't kept up with them to know, but I wouldn't be surprised. |
| 02:03 | < Nemu> | BTC has finally levelled off after being artificially inflated by Willy |
| 02:03 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 02:03 | < Nemu> | My friend sent me a pretty cool link on that. Let me track it down |
| 02:04 | < Nemu> | http://bitcoin.stamen.com/ |
| 02:04 | < Nemu> | Ops, not that one |
| 02:04 | < Nemu> | Willy is the one on the right, there, by the way. "Glitch in the system" |
| 02:05 | < Nemu> | http://willyreport.wordpress.com/2014/05/25/the-willy-report-proof-of-massive-fr audulent-trading-activity-at-mt-gox-and-how-it-has-affected-the-price-of-bitcoin / |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | Butterfly Labs and HashFast are the two springing immediatelyt o mind |
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| 02:22 | <~Vornicus> | nemu: that site seems to be down |
| 02:29 | < Nemu> | Oh no. The government doesn't want you to see it |
| 02:29 | < Nemu> | More likely someone got butthurt and decided to take advantage of the "Err on the side of caution" approach to moderation. |
| 02:30 | < Nemu> | Basically, Mt Gox was an inside job, someone was shuffling coins around for free and reselling them, this person's activities were good predictors of market trend up or down, and once he stopped, the bubble burst. |
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| 03:01 | <@Reiv> | Ah, the age old "I buy a goat, and you then buy that goat for a million dollars; we are now both millionares" gambit |
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| 11:50 | <@Azash> | Tomás Lázaro â@tomzalt |
| 11:50 | <@Azash> | The book Javascript Ninja has a Samurai on the cover. That happens because JS is not strongly typed. |
| 11:52 | <@Azash> | https://www.portcullis-security.com/security-research-and-downloads/security-adv isories/cve-2014-3445/ |
| 11:52 | <@Azash> | W H A T |
| 11:59 | <&McMartin> | That is amazing :allears: |
| 11:59 | <&McMartin> | I want to see that with passwords |
| 12:00 | <&McMartin> | "Incorrect password! Correct password is t4styb33f" |
| 12:00 | < simon_> | that's what they do - over email :) |
| 12:09 | <~Vornicus> | What the hell |
| 12:09 | < Syka> | lol software |
| 12:14 | < AnnoDomini> | Hmm. Are those privacy filter thingies for monitors mountable on laptops which don't really have a frame? |
| 12:15 | < simon_> | I'm not sure if you could close the laptop. they have some depth, right? |
| 12:16 | < simon_> | http://lifehacker.com/5864478/hack-a-monitor-to-be-viewable-only-with-special-gl asses |
| 12:17 | < simon_> | "You may look crazy to other people, though, if they see you wearing sunglasses indoors staring at a white screen." |
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| 17:23 | <@Tarinaky> | :D |
| 17:23 | <@Tarinaky> | I got the job :) |
| 17:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Yay.. |
| 17:30 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, congratulations! |
| 17:33 | <@Azash> | Congrats, what'll you be doing? |
| 17:37 | <@Tarinaky> | No idea~ |
| 17:37 | <@celticminstrel> | XD |
| 17:37 | <@Tarinaky> | C/C++ graduate role with a company designing audio hardware. |
| 17:38 | <@Tarinaky> | So... writing C/C++ code for PICs? |
| 17:38 | <@Tarinaky> | Sorry that was badly phrased |
| 17:38 | <@Tarinaky> | *with a company /that/ designs audio hardware |
| 17:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Kinda sad this means I won't be able to bum around my university town for another year while my friends graduate but opportunity knocks only once. |
| 17:40 | <@Azash> | C/C++ graduate role? |
| 17:40 | <@Tarinaky> | graduate programmer I think the title was |
| 17:40 | <@Azash> | That's a weird title |
| 17:41 | <@Tarinaky> | A bit, yeah... |
| 17:41 | <@Tarinaky> | But these days 'junior programmer' means 3-5 years onjob experience. |
| 17:41 | <@Azash> | Kind of a stretch |
| 17:41 | <@Tarinaky> | What is? |
| 17:41 | <@Azash> | You can get junior/trainee positions here without even graduating as long as you have some work to show off |
| 17:42 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't have in-industry experience. |
| 17:42 | <@Azash> | Work to show off = hobbyist/schoolwork portfolio |
| 17:42 | <@Tarinaky> | Ah, well. |
| 17:44 | <@celticminstrel> | What work do I have to show off... |
| 17:44 | <@celticminstrel> | I guess my database class project, malandread, and the fact that I worked on waterbear? Probably something else I'm forgetting. |
| 17:44 | <@Tarinaky> | Salary seems more than fair (I know people starting on less, closer to London, with better academic qualifications than me >.>) |
| 17:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which London? |
| 17:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Some town outside Reading. |
| 17:51 | <@celticminstrel> | Hah. |
| 17:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Hah? |
| 17:52 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: Or was that a serious question with the answer 'England'? |
| 17:53 | <@Tamber> | $ which london |
| 17:53 | <@Tamber> | ../earth/england/london |
| 17:53 | <@Tamber> | (Or paths to that effect~) |
| 17:53 | <@Tarinaky> | I think which returns an absolute path, not relative. |
| 17:53 | <@Tamber> | I'm pretty sure it does. |
| 17:53 | < AnnoDomini> | http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/716138.html |
| 17:53 | <@Tamber> | But I was aiming for +2, funny; not -1, accurate |
| 17:54 | <@celticminstrel> | An absolute path relative to the universe would be far too long, anyway. |
| 17:54 | <@Tarinaky> | AnnoDomini: I know. But it's also a 'joke' that London is used to describe a conurbation and it's not clearly demarked where that connurbation ends. |
| 17:54 | <@celticminstrel> | Unless you interpret planets as network drives or something weird like that. |
| 17:55 | <@Tamber> | celticminstrel, and that would really be belabouring the point. :) |
| 17:55 | <@Tarinaky> | So that the terms London and 'The South East' are often used interchangeably outside of the South-East, much to the chagrin of people who live in the south-east. |
| 17:55 | <@celticminstrel> | XD |
| 17:55 | <@Tamber> | That's fine, we don't exist anyway to people south of Birmingham~ |
| 18:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: serious question. There's a London about an hour away from me and I can never remember which continent you're on. |
| 18:14 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: Wasn't immediately obvious. :) |
| 18:14 | <@celticminstrel> | TF lives in Ontario? |
| 18:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: yes. |
| 18:20 | <@celticminstrel> | Fun. |
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| 19:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: specifically, Guelph (although I work in K-W) |
| 19:11 | <@celticminstrel> | Huh, wow. |
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| 19:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: oh? |
| 19:24 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm always surprised when I discover people live nearby. |
| 19:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | You're somewhere around K-W yourself, aren't you? |
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| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | Heh. Didn't I ask in here before about that region? ISTR the answer I got is that one should be unsurprised to see a lot of the #codenadians being from the Waterloo area |
| 21:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Quite. |
| 21:41 | <&jerith> | I like "#codenadians". |
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| 23:09 | < simon_> | I'm from the Denmark, Europe part of Waterloo. |
| 23:23 | <@Tarinaky> | Hmm... |
| 23:24 | <@Tarinaky> | Planetary annihilation doesn't seem to want to run for me. |
| 23:24 | <@Tarinaky> | Crashed twice now. |
| 23:31 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: @ErikMesoy, @Ogredude, @Tarinaky, @Namegduf, @macdjord|slep, Xires, @froztbyte, [R], @ToxicFrog, Turaiel[Offline], (+1 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) |
| 23:32 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: @JustBob, @Syloq, @JackKnife, @RchrdB |
| 23:32 | | Netsplit over, joins: @RchrdB, @JustBob, @JackKnife, @Syloq |
| 23:32 | | Netsplit over, joins: &ToxicFrog, &jerith, @froztbyte, @macdjord|slep, @Namegduf, Turaiel[Offline], @ErikMesoy, Xires, @Tarinaky, @Ogredude (+1 more) |
| 23:33 | | Xon [Xon@Nightstar-j72.ku7.252.119.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:33 | | Xon [Xon@Nightstar-j72.ku7.252.119.IP] has joined #code |
| 23:39 | <~Vornicus> | So the other day I said "thank god deployment isn't my problem"? Yeah. That, a thousand times. |
| 23:50 | | * gnolam makes a mental note to rename exceptions "fits" when he designs a programming language. |
| --- Log closed Thu May 29 00:00:49 2014 |