| --- Log opened Thu May 22 00:00:47 2014 |
| --- Day changed Thu May 22 2014 |
| 00:00 | < Julius> | It does seem that way. |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | Yes, the Still Drinking "Programing Sucks" thing |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | This is why I'm feeling like I need to start doing a cynical power-of-friendship thing |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | Becuase the open source luminaries' response to this has been like the libertarian response to the Great Depression |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | viz. "This continuous stream of high-profile, apocalyptic, devastating failure is proof of how awesome and functional the system is" |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | Unlike the libertarians, they are, technically, correct, but context is, um, important. |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | Part of that context is "in the general case, which society-wide deployment is, solving these problems involves solving problems that have existed since the dawn of sentience and were never solved. No, we're not gonna." |
| 00:04 | <&McMartin> | Actually solving spam involves making humanity as a whole immune to con artists |
| 00:04 | <&McMartin> | Good Luck With That. |
| 00:05 | <@Reiv> | How on earth are they technically correct; that sounds about as dumb as the libertarian point of view >_> |
| 00:06 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: Because there is no equivalent of a Federal Reserve |
| 00:06 | <&McMartin> | Because for all the shit that Heartbleed caused, it was there for security researchers to find, which wasn't true for, say, whatever's wrong with MS's network stack. |
| 00:07 | <&McMartin> | We consider a continuously updated piece of software as being a good thing,r ight? |
| 00:07 | <&McMartin> | We don't say "wow, what kind of piece of shit software is this, that it needs all these patches" |
| 00:07 | <&McMartin> | That is the opposite of what we do |
| 00:07 | <&McMartin> | This is hard-won wisdom on the part of the tech culture. |
| 00:08 | <@Reiv> | I /see/ |
| 00:09 | <@Reiv> | Yes, that is a useful point on the Power of Friendship |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | (Net stack is a bad example; IIRC MS is known to be using a BSD-licensed opensource network thing that is not openssl but which may allow shrewd conclusions to be drawn) |
| 00:10 | <@Reiv> | That said, there is an arguement over, uh |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | (But still, the general argument goes that way) |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | Here's a similar article from 1986: http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~cah/G51ISS/Documents/NoSilverBullet.html |
| 00:11 | <@Reiv> | "It is good that we find and fix bugs. It is not good that we write bugs faster than we patch them, and economics demands this continue." |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | In the case of Heartbleed specifically |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | "It is not good that we, as a global tech civilization, adopted a mission critical technology en-masse without looking at it or throwing any resources at all at it" |
| 00:15 | <~Vornicus> | Okay. Let me see if I can un-bone my computer. |
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| 00:33 | | * Julius completes reading. |
| 00:34 | < Julius> | That site IS terribly laid-out. |
| 00:34 | < Julius> | And the end of the article is unspecified-we-must-do-something whinery. |
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| 00:36 | <~Vornicus> | unboned |
| 00:36 | <~Vornicus> | I think |
| 00:42 | < Julius> | Enjoy your gelatinous computer. |
| 00:44 | <~Vornicus> | thank you, I shall |
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| 00:51 | <@Reiv> | Julius: Yeah, this is yet another of the rants of "Economics demands we write software until it can be used, not until it should be used" |
| 00:52 | <@Reiv> | "Oh, and now this matters because the government is enthusiastically helping subvert all this stuff and we're all basically fucked and can't stop it from a technical point of view" |
| 00:53 | | * Vornicus headslaps, forgot about here documents, tears out about 30 lines of code. |
| 00:54 | <@Reiv> | About the only really useful point is that the surveillance industry already /has/ Orweillian levels of oversight; trying to tell those guys that Being Spied On Is Wrong isn't gonna work while they can't see the problem /because they are already spied on themselves/ is probably the most noteworthy bit of the arguementation. |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: That is, of course, the traditional answer to "who watches the watchers". It's a cute construct to say it's self-defeating, but I'm not sure it's true. |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | Since, um, that article *also* treats patch streams as "look how shitty this software is, that it needs all these patches" |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | As opposed to "this software hasn't been patched in five years, run screaming" |
| 01:10 | <&McMartin> | It also says C is for writing beautiful code~ |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | The generic call for action is "stop putting up with this shit from your developers" |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | The thing is, they did |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | You don't see it in avionics. |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | The solution was "OK, don't put up with it. Everything is version 0.x forever and is never released, but MYSTERIOUSLY PEOPLE KEEP USING OUR ALPHA CODE, HOW ABOUT THAT" |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | Avionics is also attacking solvable problems, unlike society-wide cryptography~ |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | "Our goal is to write a language that lets you exchange arbitrary messages but in which it is impossible to lie" |
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| 01:46 | <&Derakon> | Doesn't the GPL explicitly disclaim that the software licensed under it is fit for literally anything? |
| 01:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Most open-source licenses do. |
| 01:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | And most non-open-source ones. |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | Most commercial licenses do too. |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | The only stuff I can think of that doesn't is embedded controller software that isn't consumer-facing |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | I'm pretty sure the problem of consumer-level software quality is in fact an irreducible aspect of that set of problems. |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | Likewise much of enterprise-level software quality |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | The endless stream of plate-balancing tricks required to get anything to work sound eerily like the ones you have to do to keep a power grid from self-destructing, or a banking system to work |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | And those are *without* computer controls. There was a famous case of someone kiting checks by setting up the routing numbers to go into a loop, and nobody caught it until the check had been in the mail so long it started physically deteriorating |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | I haven't fully explored this notion yet, but I am wondering if you can't make a good case that instead of using bridge-building as your metaphor, you should use organization of a bureaucracy |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | The equivalent of "you're asking the propulsion engineer how to build a bridge" then becomes "you're asking the history major what they think of this schedule of memos to the rest of the team" |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | And, well, the latter is not as viscerally disgusting =P |
| 01:54 | <&Derakon> | Well, as Deus Ex famously put it, laws are software for humans~ |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | I don't remember that quote, actually. Was that HELIOS? |
| 01:55 | <&Derakon> | I was a bit pithy about it, but it was one of the AIs. |
| 01:55 | <&Derakon> | I think whichever one was trying to convince Denton to go ahead with the merger. |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, HELIOS. |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | THe quote I remember was sharper |
| 01:55 | <&Derakon> | It boiled down to "Your laws are a failed attempt to codify rules for human society. I can do it so much better." |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | "Democracy is humanity admitting that it is unfit to roul itself" |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | *rule |
| 01:56 | <@Alek> | :D |
| 01:57 | | * McMartin hunts for the quote, because he attached it to a FotW quote |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, it was that exactly |
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| 05:27 | <~Vornicus> | "Failure! Cout not connect to <url>: no error" |
| 05:27 | <~Vornicus> | er, could*, but yes |
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| 05:34 | <&McMartin> | Vorn: Could be errno falling down |
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| 05:38 | <~Vornicus> | Perhaps, I should check that too. |
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| 10:00 | <~Vornicus> | Okay, back at it. Timed out. |
| 10:03 | <~Vornicus> | Which means... the service I'm trying to contact is down? I think? |
| 10:05 | <&McMartin> | That or the network between you and them is busted |
| 10:05 | <~Vornicus> | isup.me says it's not just me |
| 10:05 | <&McMartin> | busted |
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| 10:05 | < luke> | McMartin: The end result is very much the same though. |
| 10:05 | <&McMartin> | aye |
| 10:07 | <~Vornicus> | "The .me top level domain replaced the .yu ... domain previously used by Serbia and Montenegro" |
| 10:07 | <&McMartin> | lulz |
| 10:29 | <@Azash> | http://asyncmanifesto.org/ |
| 10:29 | | * Azash hurrs |
| 10:46 | <&McMartin> | Their heart may be in the right place |
| 10:47 | <&McMartin> | But there's a tension between "flexibility in prioritization" and "long, uninterrupted creative periods" |
| 10:47 | <@Azash> | McMartin: And the vast majority of that is covered by agile already |
| 10:47 | <&McMartin> | There's also a danger this turns into "make your devs mushrooms" |
| 10:47 | <@Azash> | The rest is, to a significant degree, silly |
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| 10:47 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 10:48 | <&McMartin> | I'm a little sympathetic to the claim that letting the devs *be* mushrooms is a major part of the value a tech manager brings to the team |
| 10:48 | <&McMartin> | That's why I think their heart is in the right place |
| 10:49 | <@Azash> | What do you mean by letting them be mushrooms? |
| 10:49 | <&McMartin> | "Kept in the dark and fed bullshit" |
| 10:49 | <@Azash> | Frequently venomous, grown in a dark, damp cellar and prone to distort the reality of the uninitiated? |
| 10:50 | <&McMartin> | Implicit in this model is that having the devs be part of planning meetings is wasting their time |
| 10:50 | <@Azash> | That works |
| 10:50 | <&McMartin> | ... this attitude is not universally held |
| 10:50 | <@Azash> | And that's more an issue with too many meetings |
| 10:50 | <&McMartin> | It's not universally rejected either, but it's not universally held |
| 10:50 | <@Azash> | Where I work the policy is that meetings are short and only feature people who have something to add or gain |
| 10:51 | <&McMartin> | I agree but would append "or lose" |
| 10:51 | <@Azash> | Even if you dislike meetings, getting rid of any 'communication events' (like scrum's daily scrum) goes from allowing creativity to losing control over the projec |
| 10:51 | <@Azash> | t |
| 10:51 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 10:51 | <@Azash> | Well, if you would lose something from the meeting, then you do have something to gain (that is, information and awareness) |
| 10:51 | <&McMartin> | You Can Spare 20 Fucking Minutes For A Stand-Up. |
| 10:52 | <@Azash> | I also loved the part where devs must be allowed to choose whether they want to be in a room or an open office |
| 10:52 | <@Azash> | That's gonna work out great in practice |
| 10:53 | <&McMartin> | I despise hoteling |
| 10:53 | <@Azash> | Not just hotelling |
| 10:53 | <@Azash> | "Anyone who requests an assigned desk should get to choose whether it's a private office or in a communal space." |
| 10:53 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, you just reminded me |
| 10:53 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that's kind of silly |
| 10:53 | <&McMartin> | OTOH, yeah, it's sensible to have retreat options |
| 10:54 | | * McMartin has been invoking on all week |
| 10:54 | | * McMartin should probably get back to work >_> |
| 10:54 | <@Azash> | Haha |
| 10:54 | <&McMartin> | (It's 0300 here, but I *really* want this damn thing finished tonight) |
| 10:54 | <@Azash> | Well, it's more, often your locales are just.. constructed beforehand |
| 10:54 | <@Azash> | That kind of rule will either fail or have the company moving every other time a new person is hired |
| 10:54 | <&McMartin> | YEah |
| 10:55 | <@Azash> | Unless you like, build pillow forts |
| 10:55 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 10:55 | <&McMartin> | Cubes are *like* pillow forts |
| 10:55 | <&McMartin> | And some let you take the "walls" out while still supporting the shelves |
| 10:55 | <@Azash> | Mm |
| 10:55 | <&McMartin> | I could see "group the people who want a communal space in one place, and have another place where the walls are up and people wear headphones" |
| 10:55 | <&McMartin> | But, um |
| 10:55 | <&McMartin> | The reason you want a communal space is so that it's easier to tap each other |
| 10:56 | <@Azash> | Yeah |
| 10:56 | <@Azash> | I like the idea over here |
| 10:57 | <@Azash> | You have a communal space, but there's like, ~12" walls between desks |
| 10:57 | <@Azash> | So it's a pretty pleasant hybrid of cubicle and community |
| 10:57 | <@Azash> | 12" over desk level, I mean |
| 10:57 | | * McMartin nods |
| 10:57 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I can easily see that working |
| 10:58 | <&McMartin> | The Golden Rule is still the same for all of this: Get Shit Out Of The Way Of Getting Shit Done |
| 10:58 | <@Azash> | Pretty much |
| 10:58 | <&McMartin> | The Silver Rule is Have A Realistic Assessment Of How Much Shit Can Get Done Per Unit Time |
| 10:58 | <&McMartin> | And I think you really do need the devs in on that if you want to make that succeed. |
| 10:59 | <@Azash> | That's never an easy question regardless :P |
| 11:00 | <&McMartin> | This is why good managers are secretly hugely valuable :P |
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| 11:06 | <@Azash> | http://lavabit.com/ |
| 11:20 | | * TheWatcher once again performs stabbings upon the static keyword and those who chose it |
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| 11:52 | < [R]> | <McMartin> It also says C is for writing beautiful code~ <-- I got the opposite from it. C is for writting very 0-day-ey code. |
| 11:56 | <@RchrdB> | [R], what are you referring to? |
| 11:57 | < [R]> | https://medium.com/message/81e5f33a24e1 |
| 11:58 | <@RchrdB> | âC is good for two things: being beautiful and creating catastrophic 0days in memory management.â |
| 11:59 | <@RchrdB> | I love that quote. I think that C the language *is* relatively beautiful, even though 99% of the code in it not only isn't but actually is full of undefined behaviour. |
| 12:05 | < [R]> | "The court barred them from consulting outside experts, making it difficult to understand the complex legal and technological issues involved." |
| 12:05 | < [R]> | What. |
| 12:05 | < [R]> | The. |
| 12:05 | < [R]> | Fuck. |
| 12:08 | <~Vornicus> | !?!?!? |
| 12:10 | < [R]> | The Lavabit link |
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| 12:42 | < Julius> | It's a wonder any privacy-offering firms even try to get started in the US. |
| 12:43 | < Julius> | I mean, couldn't they find a place less inclined to crush them, like, I dunno, China or Russia? |
| 12:43 | < [R]> | lol |
| 12:43 | < [R]> | Maybe North Korea. |
| 12:44 | < Julius> | Server uptime would be a problem in Best Korea. |
| 12:44 | < Julius> | What with the constant power outages. |
| 12:45 | < luke> | If this were a movie, it would be in Switzerland (and funds would probably be transfered to a Swiss bank account). |
| 12:45 | | * [R] was unaware of those |
| 12:47 | < luke> | As for C, C89 has exactly 32 keywords. *That* is beautiful. |
| 12:48 | | * froztbyte reads the last couple of lines, backs out again slowly |
| 12:50 | <&McMartin> | Julius: There's a lot about Lavabit that makes me think they did some things to make the judge suspicious of them, which is a dangerous place to be |
| 12:51 | <&McMartin> | Also, the "looking for a tech solution" may have been in the "carry a flagpole in a thunderstorm" thing |
| 12:51 | <&McMartin> | I think it's been confirmed that they'd have been helpless if they'd been based in Germany, to the point that there'd be no case in the first place. |
| 12:51 | <&McMartin> | (The "tech" thing is that the judge asked for stuff that is usually routine stuff, and got back the reply "oh, we collect that information but we throw it away immediately") |
| 12:52 | <&McMartin> | (If it had *actually been* end-to-end encryption, they could have said "we never collect that information" and I suspect they'd be in way less trouble) |
| 12:52 | | * TheWatcher EYES people |
| 12:53 | <@TheWatcher> | I swear some people have an allergy to Github's issues tracker or some shit |
| 12:53 | <&McMartin> | I keep misusing their pull request stuff >_< |
| 12:54 | <@TheWatcher> | I get emailed bug reports or feature requests from people who have full access to the issue tracker. And just now, someone trying to set up a meeting, over what turned out to be a 5 line feature request message. |
| 12:54 | <@TheWatcher> | I just |
| 12:54 | <@TheWatcher> | fuck, I don't have time for sodding meetings for trivial shit |
| 12:56 | <@TheWatcher> | Musing pull requests, how? |
| 12:56 | <@TheWatcher> | *Misusing |
| 12:57 | <&McMartin> | TheWatcher: Screwing up the request itself on the giving end, getting weird merge results on the receiving end, or causing it to get weird results in my repo when I automerge. |
| 12:57 | <&McMartin> | I think I need to be more careful with rebasing? |
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| 13:25 | < [R]> | http://xiennith.com/df.wtf.txt |
| 13:29 | < luke> | I assume you're wondering about the /dev/root 197G 188G 0 100% / line? |
| 13:35 | <@TheWatcher> | 182GB of temp files |
| 13:35 | <@TheWatcher> | nice |
| 13:36 | < luke> | Temporaraily. |
| 14:03 | < [R]> | Yeah noticed that |
| 14:03 | < [R]> | Got it all fixed (there was a .dd hard-linked into /tmp |
| 14:04 | < luke> | Are you going to give the box a name? |
| 14:06 | < [R]> | I did :p |
| 14:15 | | * Azash curses rake behaviour |
| 14:16 | <@Azash> | "Oh, I got a ^C, better drop the entire test database" |
| 14:16 | | * Azash has no DB and must migrate |
| 14:18 | < luke> | Lesson: remove the 'C' key or the control key from your keyboard so it doesn't happen again. |
| 14:49 | <@TheWatcher> | See also: ways to drive emacs users insane |
| 14:58 | < [R]> | Azash: I was testing a DB lib in a repl, as defailt behavior it killed the entire process on ANY error |
| 14:59 | < [R]> | Typoed a SELECT? Well fuck you then. |
| 15:08 | <@Azash> | Lol'd |
| 15:09 | | * Azash hnnnggghhhs at ancient EOL gem that throws exceptions |
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| 18:51 | <@froztbyte> | Azash: ~ruby~ |
| 18:52 | <@Azash> | I don't really blame Ruby for a gem project that stopped working in like 2011 |
| 19:01 | <@iospace> | oh ruby |
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| 22:10 | <@Azash> | http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/26708d/how_can_i_tell_if_my_system_adm inistrator_is/ |
| 22:10 | <@Azash> | The response in the comments is great |
| 22:20 | < RchrdB_> | https://twitter.com/marktimemedia/status/469462640314421248 |
| 22:21 | < RchrdB_> | <@marktimemedia> Two branches diverged on Git, and Iâ |
| 22:21 | < RchrdB_> | <@marktimemedia> I pulled the one less traveled by, And now there are several merge conflicts." |
| 22:21 | <@Tamber> | Hee |
| 22:21 | < RchrdB_> | oops, messed up the line break |
| 22:21 | < RchrdB_> | <@marktimemedia> I pulled the one less traveled by, |
| 22:21 | < RchrdB_> | <@marktimemedia> And now there are several merge conflicts." |
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| --- Log closed Fri May 23 00:00:14 2014 |