| --- Log opened Fri Feb 28 00:00:52 2014 |
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| 12:26 | | * Azash looks at documentation |
| 12:26 | <@Azash> | "Reserved interpolation keys are :default and :scope" |
| 12:26 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
| 12:26 | | * Azash looks at repo |
| 12:26 | <@Azash> | RESERVED_KEYS = [:scope, :default, :separator, :resolve, :object, :fallback, :format, :cascade, :throw, :raise, :rescue_format] |
| 12:27 | <@TheWatcher> | le sigh |
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| 13:10 | < Erik> | Ahaha. Remember the new programming language checklist? Calendar variant: http://qntm.org/calendar |
| 13:14 | <@TheWatcher> | "requiring people to manually adjust their clocks is idiotic" |
| 13:14 | <@TheWatcher> | AND YET WE DO THAT |
| 13:14 | <@TheWatcher> | In fact, all that section |
| 13:14 | | * TheWatcher skips ahead before the ranting begins |
| 13:15 | <@TheWatcher> | "the Earth is not, in fact, a cube" |
| 13:15 | <@TheWatcher> | But that's what they want you to think! |
| 13:17 | <@Azash> | Topologically, it is |
| 13:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Ahahahaha "the history of calendar reform is horrifically complicated and no amount of further calendar reform can make it simpler" comes pre-checked |
| 13:18 | < Erik> | "planetary-scale engineering is impractical" |
| 13:18 | < Erik> | That's temporary! |
| 13:18 | <@TheWatcher> | And lacking in vision! |
| 13:18 | < Erik> | Although there's one funny system that I don't see a reference to: there used to be time systems where the day had twelve hours and the night had twelve hours. |
| 13:19 | < Erik> | Which meant daylight-hours were longer in the summer and shorter in the winter (and vice versa). |
| 13:20 | <@TheWatcher> | Huh |
| 13:21 | < Erik> | I suppose that belongs under philosophical objections. |
| 13:21 | < Erik> | ( ) Hours should be the same length |
| 13:22 | | Erik [8f610223@Nightstar-obfcgl.mibbit.com] has left #code [] |
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| 13:22 | < Erik> | bah |
| 14:07 | | * Tarinaky thinks the simplest solution is to use UTC, everywhere, and recalibrate humans. |
| 14:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Leap seconds are handled by telling people to just wake up earlier. |
| 14:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Or later. |
| 14:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Different parts of the world just pick different sets of business hours :V |
| 14:08 | <@Tarinaky> | Rather than /everywhere/ being 9-5 and trying to fit the clocks to that. |
| 14:08 | <@Tarinaky> | But I'[m sure I'm dumb for some reason that this form will tell me. |
| 14:08 | | Erik [8f610223@Nightstar-obfcgl.mibbit.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] |
| 14:09 | < simon_> | Tarinaky, having the system we do today is mostly convenient to humans and less convenient to the systems we build to keep the illusion of "12PM being noon" in most (but not all) places in the world. |
| 14:11 | < simon_> | there are some places in the world where mid-day is 15:00 (3PM). we already have a bit of this attitude. |
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| 14:11 | <@Tarinaky> | The most convenient thing is to /change nothing/. |
| 14:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Because change is a ballache. |
| 14:11 | <@Tarinaky> | No matter what the Agile guys say (they smell funny) |
| 14:13 | < simon_> | does UTC keep to the longitude lines, or do they also respect nation borders? |
| 14:14 | < simon_> | some of the nation border invasions to the longitude lines are really disturbing. you'll have two different places with the same longitude but different time because of countries. they might even be right across a border. |
| 14:27 | | * Azash reads from the agile manifesto with a fist raised in the air |
| 14:29 | <@TheWatcher> | simon_: UTC does not vary geographically |
| 14:29 | <&jerith> | Timezones are a pain, but they serve a purpose. |
| 14:29 | <&jerith> | DST serves no purpose. |
| 14:30 | <@TheWatcher> | simon_: UTC is defined precisely as the time at 0 degrees longitude |
| 14:30 | <@TheWatcher> | Doesn't matter where you are on the planet, if you're working in UTC it's the time at 0° |
| 14:32 | < simon_> | ah. |
| 14:32 | < simon_> | of course. |
| 14:32 | < simon_> | that'd be fun, though. |
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| 15:21 | <@TheWatcher> | #code! |
| 15:21 | <@TheWatcher> | I require the most ridiculous data exchange format you can think of |
| 15:22 | <@TheWatcher> | Only requirement is that it has to be something that exists, or has existed - csv, tsv, xml, json, iff, <crazy shit here> |
| 15:23 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: wbxml just came up in work stuff. |
| 15:23 | <&jerith> | CORBA is full of ridiculous things. What does that use? |
| 15:25 | <@TheWatcher> | OMG IDL I believe |
| 15:27 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: Make sure all text is Ascii85-encoded EBCDIC. |
| 15:28 | <&jerith> | What's the use case? |
| 15:28 | <@TheWatcher> | Allowing a web service to query the mark obtained by a user for their last attempt on a quiz in moodle. |
| 15:29 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: I think wbxml is a good fit. |
| 15:29 | <&jerith> | SOAP-over-wbxml. |
| 15:30 | | * TheWatcher eyes wbxml |
| 15:30 | <&jerith> | I think you can get people to commit suicide before they get a client working. |
| 15:30 | <@TheWatcher> | do I actually really want to look at that spec? |
| 15:30 | | * TheWatcher laughs entirely too much at that |
| 15:31 | <&jerith> | I have no idea. |
| 15:32 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, it gets off to a good start by specifying network byte ordering for multibyte ints (Horay, Big Endians!) |
| 15:33 | <&jerith> | I think the easiest and sanest way to do SOAP-over-wbxml (from either direction) is to have a proxy handling wbxml<->XML. |
| 15:33 | | * simon_ has wasted an hour trying to re-install yesod. |
| 15:35 | < simon_> | and... it worked. |
| 15:35 | <&McMartin> | Still wasted, eh~ |
| 15:35 | < simon_> | but I ended up trashing my .ghc and .cabal directories, installed some packages there and yesod in a cabal sandbox. |
| 15:37 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: You can even justify this as a Standard Web Service (SOAP) with Extra Efficiency (WBXML). |
| 15:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Quite! |
| 15:38 | <&jerith> | If you actually do this, will you forward the best emails to me? |
| 15:38 | < simon_> | yeah. none of the yesod tutorials insisted that I use a cabal sandbox, which apparently and for no obvious reason worked. |
| 15:39 | <&McMartin> | It is 0740 and I have made five commits already today. |
| 15:39 | <&McMartin> | It's going to be a good[*] day |
| 15:39 | <@TheWatcher> | jerith: I've actually suggested it, but only as one of the options. I actually /like/ Iain, so I don't particularly want to give him grief. But if he takes the bait, I will keep you updated ;) |
| 15:39 | <&McMartin> | IFF is actually pretty boss, overall |
| 15:39 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, it is |
| 15:40 | <&McMartin> | Also, OMG IDL is the correct response to encountering IDL, followed by fleeing through the nearest aperture |
| 15:41 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: This sounds like an interesting story. :-) |
| 15:41 | | * TheWatcher has used IFF in code for... shit, nearly 18 years now |
| 15:41 | <@TheWatcher> | That's kinda scary |
| 15:41 | <&McMartin> | Lightwave uses IFF. I recall this because I dissected some of your models. :D |
| 15:42 | | * McMartin based the new UQM save format on RIFF. |
| 15:42 | <&McMartin> | While not being fully compliant because the basic concept is just self-describing chunks |
| 15:43 | <@TheWatcher> | jerith: eh, just doing my bit to further piss off the people who think we should be using Blackboard for stuff >.> |
| 15:44 | <@TheWatcher> | (We can't acutally programmatically extract data from blackboard, whereas it's trivial for me to integrate moodle with systems around the school) |
| 15:45 | <&jerith> | And you're doing this by proposing insane APIs? |
| 15:46 | <@TheWatcher> | Only to mess with someone. |
| 15:46 | <@TheWatcher> | I'm pretty sure it'll end up being straight XML |
| 15:46 | <&jerith> | XML. :-( |
| 15:46 | <@TheWatcher> | Meh |
| 15:47 | <&McMartin> | Python has stock decoders, so whatever~ |
| 15:47 | <&jerith> | Sensible XML is fine. |
| 15:47 | <&jerith> | Most XML isn't sensible. |
| 15:48 | <&jerith> | XML is also full of spiders. |
| 15:48 | <&jerith> | Unfortunately, XML is also often the best solution. |
| 15:48 | | * TheWatcher glares at the idiots in central who publish various news feeds in an XML dialect that is /not/ RSS or Atom |
| 16:01 | <@Tarinaky> | TheWatcher: simon_: The definition is technically more involved than that since there's a UTC that keeps 'pace' with the motion of the Earth and a scientific UTC that doesn't. |
| 16:02 | <@TheWatcher> | Yes, but the core thing I was pointing out was that UTC is not different around the world |
| 16:02 | < simon_> | Tarinaky, oh. |
| 16:03 | <@Tarinaky> | They're very nearly the same thing though atm. |
| 16:04 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: There is only one UTC. UT1 and TAI are different. :-) |
| 16:04 | <@Tarinaky> | TAI? |
| 16:04 | <@TheWatcher> | International atomic time |
| 16:04 | <@TheWatcher> | (blame the French) |
| 16:04 | <@Tarinaky> | Is that UTC0? |
| 16:04 | <@Tarinaky> | I forget which is which. |
| 16:05 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Time |
| 16:05 | <&jerith> | There is UT0 and UT1, but no UTC0 or UTC1. |
| 16:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Ah, that's what I mean. |
| 16:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Dealing with time really ticks me off sometimes. |
| 16:08 | <&jerith> | I have a friend who implemented NTP for his radiotelescope. |
| 16:08 | < simon_> | TheWatcher, time has a tendency to tick. |
| 16:08 | <&jerith> | (Well, not *his* radiotelescope. The one he works on.) |
| 16:09 | <@TheWatcher> | Poor sod. |
| 16:09 | <@TheWatcher> | Has he come out of therapy yet? >.> |
| 16:10 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: You know how your particular insanity leads you to perpetrate Perl code? |
| 16:11 | <&jerith> | His is for C. He wrote a high-performance HTTP server so that he could use it to share the code for his high-performance HTTP server. ^.^ |
| 16:11 | <@Azash> | Bootstrapping young man |
| 16:12 | <@Azash> | jerith: What about JSON? |
| 16:12 | < Shiz> | sinc/w 98 |
| 16:12 | < Shiz> | whoops. |
| 16:13 | <@Azash> | Since Windows 98? |
| 16:13 | <@Azash> | I thought JSON was older |
| 16:14 | <@TheWatcher> | jerith: I... see. |
| 16:14 | <&jerith> | Azash: What about JSON? |
| 16:14 | <@Azash> | 16:48 <&jerith> Unfortunately, XML is also often the best solution. |
| 16:15 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: He's actually a really nice guy and one of the few people I trust to actually write nontrivial C code. |
| 16:15 | <&jerith> | Azash: Sometimes JSON isn't an option. |
| 16:57 | < Xon> | jerith, JSON is a bitch to use when you are dealling with legacy classic asp. (WHY CAN'T THAT SHIT DIE) |
| 17:04 | | macdjord|slep is now known as macdjord |
| 17:26 | <@Tarinaky> | I have yet to come up with a decent way to do JSON in C/C++. |
| 17:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Boost is overly complicated. |
| 17:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Because it's Boost. |
| 17:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Un |
| 17:26 | <@TheWatcher> | libjson |
| 17:27 | <@Tarinaky> | I think I once handrolled a JSON parser/writer in C++ once, but I don't remember where I put it and it was probably terrible. |
| 17:27 | <@Tarinaky> | TheWatcher: Isn't that the one that uses Boost? |
| 17:30 | <&jerith> | My favourite JSON-related thing ever: https://github.com/simplejson/simplejson/issues/80 |
| 17:30 | <&jerith> | "Emitting output that violates the spec is okay, because it's an optimisation that only happens sometimes." |
| 17:32 | <@TheWatcher> | I dunno. If it is, there's jsoncpp |
| 17:32 | <@TheWatcher> | or json-c |
| 17:38 | <&jerith> | Also https://github.com/simplejson/simplejson/issues/25 and https://github.com/simplejson/simplejson/issues/75 which are the same thing with the same response. |
| 17:40 | < ErikMesoy> | Man, this computational linguistics course is the best course I've taken in a while |
| 17:45 | < ErikMesoy> | prettify() or prettyfy()? |
| 17:46 | < ErikMesoy> | (turning grammatical analysis arrays of words into a sentence string) |
| 18:13 | < ErikMesoy> | Huh. Things are appearing in a set that really, really shouldn't be there. |
| 18:17 | < ErikMesoy> | Oh right, a python string is an array. :V |
| 18:18 | < ErikMesoy> | I tried to make a set() of unique words, and it turns out that feeding word strings to set() results in an array of unique characters. |
| 18:18 | < ErikMesoy> | Hm. Ugly way of fixing this: use dict() in place of set(), care only about keys, ignore values. What's nicer way? |
| 18:31 | <@gnolam> | set(("foo",)) |
| 18:38 | < ErikMesoy> | Thanks. Still looks a little icky, but I guess it can't be perfect in a first-class-objects language |
| 18:41 | <@gnolam> | Normally you'd feed it lists at a time (e.g. the output from str.split()), so. |
| 18:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, the set constructor takes a collection and creates a set containing all values in the collection. |
| 18:42 | < ErikMesoy> | I see. Here I'm selectively, gradually feeding in words from an array of tuples (word, grammatical class). |
| 18:42 | < ErikMesoy> | Maybe append those words to an interim variable, then split that? |
| 18:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | Since strings are collections of characters, you end up with a set of characters. |
| 18:42 | < ErikMesoy> | Eh, I'm probably overengineering this |
| 18:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | I think the pythonic way to do this is set([list comprehension that filters to just the words you want]) or something |
| 18:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | But python surprises and infuriates me, so I'm probably not the right person to ask |
| 18:54 | | abudhabi_ is now known as Sam |
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| 19:13 | < Shiz> | ErikMesoy â Oh right, a python string is an array. :V |
| 19:13 | < Shiz> | strictly wrong |
| 19:13 | < Shiz> | a string is iterable |
| 19:14 | < Shiz> | and set/list/etc constructors take any kind of iterable |
| 19:14 | < Shiz> | :3 |
| 19:14 | < Shiz> | ToxicFrog: 2.7 or something has {} for set comprehensions |
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| 22:06 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 22:09 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 22:23 | | Sam is now known as AnnoDomini |
| 22:24 | | * gnolam cracks his knuckles, gets down to implementing multithreading into VB5. |
| 22:25 | <@gnolam> | -to |
| 22:25 | <@Namegduf> | Why |
| 22:28 | < RichyB> | wat |
| 22:28 | <@gnolam> | Don't really have a choice. |
| 22:28 | < RichyB> | Can you *really* not do⦠ANYTHING else? |
| 22:28 | < RichyB> | Multiple processes. VB.NET. |
| 22:28 | < RichyB> | Take up potato farming for a living? |
| 22:29 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 22:30 | <@gnolam> | Legacy project is legacy. |
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| 23:03 | <@gnolam> | Although... hmm... |
| 23:03 | <@gnolam> | I /might/ actually be able to avoid it. |
| 23:15 | <@gnolam> | (This would be much preferable.) |
| 23:28 | < RichyB> | It would be -really- surprising if VB5's interpreter was in any way thread-safe instead of being a huge mess of unsynchronised global variables. |
| --- Log closed Sat Mar 01 00:00:06 2014 |