| --- Log opened Tue Feb 11 00:00:42 2014 |
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| 01:33 | <&McMartin> | Hmm |
| 01:33 | | * McMartin really needs to get back into Monocling. |
| 01:35 | <@Reiv> | Yes you do~ |
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| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | Frozen Synapse soundtrack: still excellent hacking music |
| 01:52 | | * McMartin is racing crunch time deadlines this week as well as having events for four of the evenings -_- |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | With luck I'll have to cancel one of them! |
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| 04:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I've been working through Best of 8-Bit Collective as my hacking music. |
| 04:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | All ten days of it. |
| 04:06 | <@Reiv> | Geez |
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| 08:07 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Shiz, @Derakon[AFK], @froztbyte, AnnoDomini, macdjord, simon_, @Tarinaky, Ogredude, Red_Queen, @Azash, (+9 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) |
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| 08:08 | | ServerMode/#code [+b *!fgd@*.wanadoo.fr] by *.Nightstar.Net |
| 08:14 | | * Tarinaky flrrrs about this code. |
| 08:14 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Shiz, @Derakon[AFK], @froztbyte, simon_, macdjord, AnnoDomini, @Tarinaky, Ogredude, Red_Queen, @Azash, (+9 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) |
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| 08:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Hahaha. |
| 08:16 | <@Tarinaky> | There's already a routine in here that switches the drone to RTL if the Voltage goes below a threshold. |
| 08:16 | | * Tarinaky facepalms. |
| 08:18 | <@Azash> | http://i.imgur.com/xzIp6E9.jpg |
| 08:20 | < Erik> | Oh god that neckbeard. |
| 08:51 | < Shiz> | rfw â Shiz: somehow |
| 08:51 | < Shiz> | rfw â i have caused a race condition |
| 08:51 | < Shiz> | rfw â with only one thread |
| 08:51 | < Shiz> | daily code life |
| 08:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Every time I go to write some code for my Diss I end up finding it in the code-base I'm meant to be patching. |
| 08:53 | <@Tarinaky> | At this rate I'm not going to have much of a project :/ |
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| 09:29 | < thalass> | Drone? |
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| 09:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Drone. |
| 09:59 | < Erik> | Drone! |
| 10:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm |
| 10:04 | < Shiz> | Drone: |
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| 10:31 | < thalass> | is this the kind of drone we're not supposed to know about? |
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| 10:36 | < RichyB> | Shiz, race condition with one thread: signal handlers? |
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| 11:35 | < Erik> | I have a list of tuples of the form [(a,b), (name, erik), (id, 123)] where the list contains an unknown number of tuples in unknown order, but there's guaranteed to be a tuple consisting of string "id" and an int. What's the elegant way for getting out that int? |
| 11:35 | < Erik> | for tuple in list: if tuple[0]="id": return tuple[1] seems clunky. But maybe there's no better way since this isn't a dictionary? |
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| 12:13 | < AnnoDomini> | ```````. |
| 12:15 | < RichyB> | Erik, dict(list_of_pairs)['id'] if you don't care about consuming the whole thing in one go. |
| 12:17 | < Erik> | RichyB: that will be fine, I only want the id |
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| 12:19 | < Erik> | Works, thanks |
| 12:19 | < RichyB> | if you reeeally have to do it as a one-liner with itertools: next(itertools.ifilter(lambda x: x[0] == "id", list_of_pairs))[1] |
| 12:20 | < RichyB> | btw, the proper name (according to Lisp weenies) for a list of pairs like that is an "association list" |
| 12:27 | < Erik> | surely Lisp weenies would call it an (association list)? ;-) |
| 12:28 | <@TheWatcher> | (cons association (list))~ |
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| 14:01 | | * TheWatcher hairpulls at this code |
| 14:01 | <@TheWatcher> | Y U NO WORKY?! |
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| 14:24 | < Erik> | if tag[0] is 'a': print str([].append(tag))+" wut" |
| 14:24 | < Erik> | This prints out "None wut" at a number of points |
| 14:25 | < Erik> | I'm pretty sure I should be seeing something more like "a wut" |
| 14:26 | < Erik> | if tag[0] is 'a': print str([].append(tag[0]))+" wut" |
| 14:26 | < Erik> | Still printing out "None wut". |
| 14:26 | | * Erik wut. |
| 14:28 | < Erik> | ...but simply using print tag+" wut" will give me the "a wut" I expected. And type() reports that tag is a string |
| 14:28 | < Erik> | Does Python do something funny with flattening arrays into strings if the array has been extended? |
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| 14:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Argh. I'm having a hard time figuring out the schema of these log files. |
| 14:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Trying to RTFS is getting me nowhere as it's too low-level :/ |
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| 14:54 | <@Tarinaky> | http://pastebin.com/EES879Mv << I can't figure out what order write block is dumping the numbers into the log file. |
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| 15:10 | < Shiz> | I think Erik doesn't get the point that lists are mutable in python |
| 15:10 | < Shiz> | and that .append doesn't return a new list |
| 15:10 | < Shiz> | and iwas too late to tell him that |
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| 15:29 | < ErikMesoy> | Shiz: aha, thanks. (that was my work account) |
| 15:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz, ErikMesoy: but [] creates a new list. Isn't [].append(tag) eqv to [tag]? |
| 15:30 | < Shiz> | no |
| 15:30 | < Shiz> | it's not |
| 15:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | How does it differ? |
| 15:30 | < Shiz> | .append is a method that mutates the list it operates on |
| 15:31 | < Shiz> | it doesn't return a new list |
| 15:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes, I know |
| 15:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh wait |
| 15:31 | < Shiz> | [] / [ tag ] / [ x for x in xs ] are list generator expressions |
| 15:31 | < ErikMesoy> | does it return the original list? |
| 15:31 | < Shiz> | they return a list |
| 15:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | What you meant to say there isn't "it doesn't return a new list" |
| 15:31 | < Shiz> | ErikMesoy: it doesn't return anything |
| 15:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | But "it returns None" |
| 15:31 | < ErikMesoy> | aha |
| 15:31 | < Shiz> | it's a mutating method |
| 15:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | "it doesn't return a new list" implies that it returns the list it just mutated, which is, you know, the sensible thing to do. |
| 15:31 | < Shiz> | right |
| 15:31 | < Shiz> | yeah, it doesn't return anything |
| 15:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Fucking Python. |
| 15:32 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | How odd |
| 15:35 | < ErikMesoy> | Yes, it does seem a bit odd. |
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| 15:35 | < Shiz> | why? |
| 15:35 | < ErikMesoy> | Obviously, because it violated my expectations. :) |
| 15:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: returning self lets you chain methods - t.append(foo).append(bar).extend(baz).sort() |
| 15:36 | < Shiz> | and I posit that only serves to make code less readable |
| 15:36 | < Shiz> | :P |
| 15:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's easier to follow than four separate lines, and much easier to follow than sort(extend(append(append(t, foo), bar), baz)) |
| 15:38 | < Shiz> | I disagree with the former part of the sentence and agree with the latter part |
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| 15:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: you probably don't like -> and its relatives either, do you |
| 15:56 | < Shiz> | I really, really need a context for that |
| 15:56 | < Shiz> | -> can mean a lot of things in a lot of languages |
| 15:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Clojure ->, sorry. |
| 15:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | (-> t (append foo |
| 15:56 | < Shiz> | I'm not really familiar with clojure |
| 15:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | (-> t (append foo) (append bar) (extend baz) sort) |
| 15:56 | < Shiz> | probably not, no |
| 15:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | (-> val form1 form2 form3 ... formN) does all the forms to val in order and returns the result. |
| 15:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | Next you'll be saying that you're a filthy mutability-haver! |
| 15:57 | < Shiz> | yeah, let me know when the fp circlejerk is over |
| 15:57 | < Shiz> | i'm going to do something useful |
| 16:03 | <&jerith> | ToxicFrog: functions that mutate a thing don't return the mutated thing. |
| 16:04 | <&jerith> | Otherwise you might expect the return value to be a new thing instead of the original thing. |
| 16:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: you've never used a functional language, have you. |
| 16:05 | < ErikMesoy> | please don't have a language flamewar on my account |
| 16:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | jerith: I don't buy that. It's already breaking expectations left and right. |
| 16:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | Er, I mean |
| 16:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | I buy that that's their stated reasoning |
| 16:06 | < Shiz> | it's a cute assertion, but no |
| 16:06 | < Shiz> | I know basic scheme and Haskell. |
| 16:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | I don't buy that it's a good reason for this API |
| 16:06 | <&jerith> | ToxicFrog: I'm not saying it's a good or bad idea, I'm saying it's a consistent policy. |
| 16:07 | <&jerith> | Especially if you have some functions that mutate a thing and other similar functions that return a new thing. |
| 16:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | Right. I would expect the former to return self and the latter to return new and the difference to be clear from naming. |
| 16:07 | <&jerith> | That might be a better way to do it. |
| 16:08 | <&jerith> | Ruby has a ! suffix on mutating methods, except that fails because it's not consistent. |
| 16:08 | | * jerith heads out. |
| 16:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: so, immutable data structures are not an "fp circle jerk", but an actual useful technique. Especially if you are doing anything involving concurrency or managing program state history. |
| 16:10 | < Shiz> | immutable data structures aren't an fp circlejerk, "Next you'll be saying that you're a filthy mutability-haver!" most definitely is |
| 16:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: so, in case you hadn't noticed, I was being more than a little facetious there |
| 16:14 | < Shiz> | as was I |
| 16:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | Based mostly on the fact that your preferred code structure of "t.foo(); t.bar(); t.baz();" ad infinitum works only with pervasively mutable data structures. |
| 16:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, I've had people call FP a dead-end ivory-tower circle jerk enough in dead seriousness that that wasn't clear. Sorry. |
| 16:15 | < Shiz> | I would never acll FP dead-end or ivory-tower, I think it's very interesting and useful |
| 16:15 | < Shiz> | but aside from the facetious comment here |
| 16:15 | < Shiz> | I do think people circlejerk over it way too much and see it as the second coming of christ |
| 16:16 | < Shiz> | Also, no worries |
| 16:17 | < Shiz> | (also, my preference of statement-by-statement only holds for data structures that are in fact mutable) |
| 16:17 | < Shiz> | I have no particular preference for mutable structures either. |
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| 16:25 | <@iospace> | 11:25:15 <shepheb> "Java's approach to memory management can be summarized in three words: 'om nom nom'" |
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| 16:29 | < Shiz> | I've had the pleasure of working with the JNI the other day |
| 16:29 | < Shiz> | it was an experience. |
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| 20:50 | | * TheWatcher stabs google |
| 20:50 | <@TheWatcher> | Document your fucking feild sizes, damnit |
| 20:50 | <@TheWatcher> | *field |
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| 21:55 | < Shiz> | 'no' |
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| 22:29 | | mode/#code [+ao Derakon Derakon] by ChanServ |
| 22:29 | <&Derakon> | Quote from my boss: "The Russians tried to destroy America by giving us Unix." |
| 22:29 | <&Derakon> | (In his opinion we should all be using VMS) |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Bell Labs is down the street |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Well, no it's not |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | But Xerox PARC is. |
| 22:30 | <&Derakon> | I tried to point this out to him. |
| 22:30 | <&Derakon> | I did not get very far. |
| 22:31 | <&Derakon> | The reason he said this is because a visitor from Oxford is trying to get copies of our 3D modeling files for the microscope design, and having trouble because there are literally millions of them. |
| 22:31 | <&McMartin> | My dad is also a VMS partisan~ |
| 22:31 | <&Derakon> | We told my boss to just let him clone the hard drive, but for whatever reason he wants to prune things down to just the bits that contain the microscope design. |
| 22:32 | <&McMartin> | Clone drive, delete everything else~ |
| 22:32 | <&Derakon> | Which is creating a gigantic pile of work since nobody knowns how this hard drive is organized and it is self-referential (i.e. uses symlinks). |
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| 22:34 | <&McMartin> | Isn't there a copy/archive system that is symlink-aware? |
| 22:35 | <&Derakon> | I'm not aware of it if so. |
| 22:35 | <&Derakon> | But that doesn't mean much. |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | The one I was thinking of is unique to OS X >_< |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | (ditto) |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | ... Does rsync know how this stuff rolls? |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | Yes! |
| 22:36 | <&Derakon> | I am absolutely the wrong person to be asking about this. |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | rsync -l |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | well |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | rsync -a to preserve everything |
| 22:37 | <&McMartin> | Look into rsyncing the file set and it will preserve all the random fs-level BS |
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| 22:37 | <&Derakon> | Will let him know, thanks. |
| 22:38 | <&McMartin> | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/rsync is a start |
| 22:38 | <&Derakon> | This is a Windows drive originally, note. |
| 22:38 | <&Derakon> | Though we can of course boot into a LiveCD. |
| 22:39 | <&McMartin> | Oh, if it's running on Windows, I believe it's ROBOCOPY you want |
| 22:39 | <&McMartin> | and I don't know how to use it |
| 22:39 | <&Derakon> | Ha, fantastic. |
| 22:41 | < Shiz> | Derakon: but Linux is Finnish. |
| 22:43 | <&Derakon> | Shiz: Unix, not Linux. |
| 22:43 | < Shiz> | oh |
| 22:43 | <&Derakon> | Hence why McM brought up Bell Labs, where Unix was developed. |
| 22:43 | < Shiz> | i misread |
| 22:43 | < Shiz> | my reading comprehension is not up to speed |
| 22:43 | < Shiz> | my apologies |
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| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | Bell Labs is in New Jersey, though, so you can make lots of jokes anyway~ |
| 22:44 | < Shiz> | I thought I had glossed over the rest of the convo and didn't see it mentioned |
| 22:44 | <@Alek> | there's Bell and Lucent locations near us, just a few miles south. |
| 22:44 | <@Alek> | in Illinois. |
| 22:45 | <@Alek> | Greater Chicagoland. |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | AIUI though Unix was the NJ one, hence the "MIT" vs. "New Jersey" comparison in Worse Is Better |
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| 22:47 | <&Derakon> | (Worse is Better: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html ) |
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| 22:52 | < Shiz> | funnily enough I don't fully agree with either philosophy |
| 22:53 | <&Derakon> | They're portrayed as extremes. |
| 22:58 | <&McMartin> | Huh, I don't have Mercurial installed |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | Going way back though, my dad did engineering work for Motorola and some digital TV companies back in the day, and he *also* liked VMS |
| 23:02 | <&Derakon> | My boss just hasn't used a computer since the VMS days, AFAICT~ |
| 23:02 | <&Derakon> | (I mean, he has an iMac for checking his email, but that's about it) |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | Apparently Alphas running VMS were able to clock ludicrous uptime without being babysat, which was a bonus when getting console access involves driving a truck through the mountains for an hour |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | And that strikes me as the kind of filter where people don't get to be stubborn~ |
| 23:03 | <&Derakon> | My boss's attitude is just that the filesystem on VMS was more featureful, if I understand him correctly. |
| 23:03 | | * McMartin finds this extremely implausible at this juncture. |
| 23:04 | <&McMartin> | There have been three or four filesystem revolutions since, and I'd be shocked if, say, NTFS were not a strict superset of everything VMS did |
| 23:04 | <&Derakon> | Well, he keeps trying to understand computers by asking for printouts of the entire directory listing. |
| 23:04 | <&McMartin> | Since they had the same designers~ |
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| 23:40 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| --- Log closed Wed Feb 12 00:00:42 2014 |