| --- Log opened Fri Jan 31 00:00:42 2014 |
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| 06:07 | < Harlow> | I feel like code would appreciate this video a bit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOBzWF0Aws&list=PLuKg-WhduhkmIcFMN7wxfVWYu8qnk0 jMN |
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| 11:07 | < Erik> | My coworker (with the objects) is complaining about pi pie and going THIS IS WHY WE MUST SWITCH TO TAU. |
| 11:09 | < Erik> | Also so he can write circle area = 1/2 * tau * r^2 the same way one writes kinetic energy = 1/2 * mass * v^2. |
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| 11:42 | <@Shiz> | :| |
| 11:42 | <@Shiz> | why not define both |
| 11:48 | < RichyB> | Erik, that sounds like a good idea to me just for the sake of making e_k = ½mv² less bewildering later on. :) |
| 11:49 | < simon_> | for an implementation of malloc, doesn't it make sense to have a tree of allocations rather than a list? |
| 11:50 | < simon_> | I know that FreeBSD goes even further than that and has a bunch of pools of various sizes. |
| 12:00 | <@Shiz> | I think various size pools is what most OSes/libcs do, but don't quote me on that |
| 12:17 | <@TheWatcher> | argh |
| 12:18 | <@TheWatcher> | I had to stop refactoring work on this code to go fix up problems with an entirely different system |
| 12:18 | <@TheWatcher> | and now I can't remember where the fuck I was up to with it |
| 12:31 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't understand why people care so much about whether we use pi or tau. It's... like complaining about h vs h-bar... |
| 12:31 | <@TheWatcher> | Or emacs v vi |
| 12:31 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, wait, no, clearly vi users are insane. |
| 12:31 | <@Tarinaky> | emacs vs vi is a very important discussion that needs to be had until everyone else agrees that they are wrong. Obviously. |
| 12:31 | < Erik> | or internet explorer v netscape |
| 12:32 | <@TheWatcher> | netscape |
| 12:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Erik: IE v netscape has an easy answer. "Neither" |
| 12:32 | <@TheWatcher> | Now there's a name I haven't heard in a while |
| 12:32 | <@Tarinaky> | I think Erik does internet flame-war re-enactment at the weekend. |
| 12:33 | <@TheWatcher> | snrk |
| 12:33 | < Erik> | Except without the "re". |
| 12:33 | <@Tarinaky> | So instead of dressing up as Roundheads and Cavaliers they dress up as Internet Explorer and Netscape users. |
| 12:33 | < Erik> | I just enact flamewars. :p |
| 12:33 | <@TheWatcher> | Erik the Firestarter?~ |
| 12:34 | < Erik> | Erik the poster-of-flamebait. >_> |
| 12:35 | <@Shiz> | it's like saying java vs C# |
| 12:35 | <@Shiz> | everybody knows there is only one answer, the rest is wrong |
| 12:37 | < Erik> | java, definitely |
| 12:38 | < Erik> | If Java were a mode of transport, if would be like climbing into a padded hamster ball and being fired from a catapult. C# would just be the catapult. |
| 12:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes, but half the time the catapult is being fired into a capture net. |
| 12:39 | <@Tarinaky> | While Java you're being shot at the side of a mountain every time. |
| 12:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Or, to abandon the analogy... |
| 12:39 | <@Tarinaky> | C# has better tools if you're developing exclusively for Windows. |
| 12:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Java is better for the end-user experience and portability but has fuck-all for tools. |
| 12:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Because Microsoft is nothing if not a weird bald-guy in a blue suit-shirt shouting DEVELOPERS over and over like some sort of 1984 comparison that doesn't go anywhere. |
| 12:43 | <@Shiz> | it's funny tho |
| 12:43 | <@Shiz> | at this point C# is more portable than Java |
| 12:44 | <@Shiz> | C# runs on iOS, Java doesn't |
| 12:44 | <@Shiz> | and both run on pretty much all other platforms |
| 12:44 | <@Tarinaky> | Only with certain provisos. |
| 12:44 | <@Tarinaky> | Mono is always 1 version behind. |
| 12:44 | <@Shiz> | mono was actualy faster in implementing C# 4.something than MS |
| 12:44 | <@Shiz> | at least, that's what a mono dev told e |
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| 12:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Well. Yes.... because MS are inventing it as well. |
| 12:45 | <@Tarinaky> | But Zeno's paradox kindof applies. |
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| 12:45 | <@Shiz> | faster as in earlier in time |
| 12:45 | <@Shiz> | obviously |
| 12:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Mono can't overtake the MS development because it's a compatibility layer. |
| 12:46 | <@Shiz> | as in they had it implemented before MS fully did |
| 12:46 | <@Shiz> | not that they took shorter |
| 12:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, this doesn't match up with my experience of being told that Mono doesn't support 4 yet. |
| 12:46 | <@Shiz> | it's also not a compatibility layer ut just an alternate implementation |
| 12:46 | <@Shiz> | but* |
| 12:47 | <@Shiz> | well idk the specifics either, I just have a friend that works at Xamarin who occasionally tells me shit :P |
| 12:47 | <@Tarinaky> | The only difference between an Alternate Implementation vs Compatibility Layer is 'branding' |
| 12:47 | | * TheWatcher readsup |
| 12:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Anyone who believes the hype about java portability has never tried to ship a real multiplatform java application |
| 12:48 | <@Tarinaky> | TheWatcher: By portability I just mean Linux and Windows. |
| 12:48 | <@Shiz> | same goes for any 'portable' language though |
| 12:48 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not doing 'real' portability. |
| 12:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: even then. |
| 12:49 | <@Shiz> | languages can abstract common operations but they can't abstract away anything you're ever going to do |
| 12:49 | <@Tarinaky> | *x86 Linux and Windows |
| 12:50 | <@TheWatcher> | Even then. Even if the program itself behaves the same on either, actually getting it /to/ work can be hilarious fun |
| 12:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, it's a non-trivial problem. |
| 12:50 | <@TheWatcher> | Indeed! |
| 12:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Java is, as far as I am aware, the best 'compiled' program solution. |
| 12:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Otherwise you're looking at scripting languages like Python, Perl and Ruby |
| 12:51 | <@Shiz> | python is compiled too |
| 12:51 | <@Shiz> | compiled isn't really an argument that makes sense |
| 12:52 | <@Tarinaky> | It's not an argument. |
| 12:52 | <@Tarinaky> | It's a property. |
| 12:52 | <@Tarinaky> | And all four of them have the same problems re multiplatform actually getting it to work. |
| 12:52 | <@Shiz> | nor a property, then |
| 12:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Fine. Whatever. |
| 12:53 | <@Tarinaky> | So Java is just as good as the other three alternatives. |
| 12:54 | <@Shiz> | I never really understood portability as an argument to choose a language |
| 12:54 | <@TheWatcher> | Only with extra security holes, and a standard library designed by raving lunatics and OO purists |
| 12:54 | <@Shiz> | there doesn't seem a lot of ways to actually define it |
| 12:54 | <@TheWatcher> | (but I repeat myself) |
| 12:54 | <@Shiz> | the things it abstracts in ts standard library? |
| 12:57 | <@Tarinaky> | Because Portability isn't some mathematical property? |
| 12:57 | <@Tarinaky> | Portability is the ability to run some piece of software on multiple computers. |
| 12:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Of course, I don't actually want my software to run on /every/ implementation of a universal turing machine. |
| 12:58 | <@Tarinaky> | I just want it to run on more than one Operating System. |
| 12:59 | <@Tarinaky> | And I don't actually need it to run on more than two different Operating Systems because I only own two computers I would ever want to run it on. |
| 13:00 | <@Tarinaky> | But, you know, if I don't want to end up maintaining two, distinct, source-programs linked only by some horrible mess of #ifdef statements (or local equivalent) portability is a desirable property for a language to have. |
| 13:04 | < Erik> | write in html? |
| 13:06 | <@Tarinaky> | HTML isn't turing complete. |
| 13:06 | <@Tarinaky> | At least, I hope it isn't. |
| 13:07 | <@Shiz> | HTML5 and CSS3 in combination are turing complete |
| 13:07 | <@Shiz> | for some weird reason |
| 13:07 | <@Tarinaky> | God damn it. |
| 13:07 | <@Shiz> | aside from that, my point is that I don't believe a language has inherent portability, but its libraries have |
| 13:07 | <@Shiz> | and if you define a language portability by how much its standard library abstracts away i think that's pretty pointless |
| 13:08 | <@Tarinaky> | It's not just the standard library. It's a property of the whole tool-chain. |
| 13:09 | <@Tarinaky> | And the features and availability (ie price) of a language's tool-chains is an important consideration when choosing a language. |
| 13:09 | <@Tarinaky> | But yes, a language is not its tool-chain or vice versa. But without the other they are useless. |
| 13:09 | <@Tarinaky> | (Inb4 Lisp) |
| 13:10 | < Erik> | lisp has a tool-chain? :p |
| 13:10 | <@Tarinaky> | It does now. |
| 13:10 | <@Shiz> | you are the toolchain in lisp |
| 13:10 | <@Shiz> | :P |
| 13:11 | <@Shiz> | man |
| 13:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Lisp is crossplatform in that it's designed to run on nothing equally well. |
| 13:11 | | * TheWatcher drowns the channel in parens |
| 13:11 | | * Erik fires the ))) at TheWatcher |
| 13:11 | <@Shiz> | dealing with LGPL sure is annoying when working on iOS stuff |
| 13:11 | < Erik> | Closest thing I've seen to a toolchain in lisp is stuff like Hy which gives you the Python toolchain in Lisp |
| 13:11 | <@Tarinaky> | GCC has a lisp compiler iirc. |
| 13:12 | <@Shiz> | https://www.gnu.org/software/gcl/ |
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| 15:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: I think you mean D~ |
| 15:28 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: What was the question? |
| 15:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: about a language without a toolchain being useless. |
| 15:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | D is a cautionary tale about that. |
| 15:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | It is a fairly cool on paper language that no-one uses, because it has two unfinished, broken, mutually incompatible toolchains and standard libraries. |
| 15:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | Possibly three at this point. |
| 15:29 | < Syka> | you know what D needs |
| 15:29 | < Syka> | a toolchain and stdlib to unify them all! |
| 15:29 | < Syka> | (D now has four incompatible toolchains and stdlibs.) |
| 15:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | \xkcd{standards} |
| 15:29 | <@Shiz> | &ToxicFrog â It is a fairly cool on paper language |
| 15:29 | <@Shiz> | I'd violently disgaree |
| 15:30 | <@Shiz> | it's pretty bad on paper too |
| 15:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: at the time I read about it the bar to clear was "C++" |
| 15:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | These days when Go and Rust exist, yes, it looks a lot worse. |
| 15:31 | < ErikMesoy> | People use Go? |
| 15:31 | < ErikMesoy> | I've only heard of that as a paper language. |
| 15:31 | < Syka> | people use a lot of go |
| 15:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Google use Go. |
| 15:31 | < Syka> | google use it a lot |
| 15:31 | < Syka> | go-gle |
| 15:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Google also created Go. |
| 15:32 | <@Shiz> | I was in the D community a few years ago as a passive observer |
| 15:32 | <@Shiz> | the main issue is that everyone there is a wannabe language designer |
| 15:32 | <@Shiz> | so of COURSE there will be four different standard libraries |
| 15:32 | <@Shiz> | :D |
| 15:33 | <@Shiz> | and toolchains |
| 16:11 | <@gnolam> | The proletarians have nothing to lose but their toolchains. They have a world to win. |
| 16:11 | <@gnolam> | Working threads of the world, unite! |
| 16:12 | | * Tarinaky kill -9's gnolam's revolutionary processes. |
| 16:12 | | * gnolam pours himself another cup of tea and starts explaining to his boss why writing/reading structs directly is a bad idea. |
| 16:12 | < ErikMesoy> | Surely they should be codetarians or programarians or something. |
| 16:14 | < ErikMesoy> | "The PL theorists have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it." |
| 16:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | gnolam: as in, just cast it to a byte* and fwrite/fread it directly? |
| 16:21 | <@gnolam> | Yes. |
| 16:23 | <@Shiz> | please explain here too |
| 16:23 | <@Shiz> | for educational purposes |
| 16:23 | <@Shiz> | :P |
| 16:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: all your pointers break, and it's not width- or endianness- safe. |
| 16:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or alignment-safe. |
| 16:39 | <@Shiz> | __attribute__((packed)) |
| 16:39 | <@Shiz> | #yolo |
| 16:39 | <@Shiz> | ( ââ¿â) |
| 16:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or compiler/optimization safe, since different compilers or optimization settings may pack the struct differently. |
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| 17:48 | < RichyB> | simon_, btw, malloc() just a library, not a system call (the syscall is either mmap() or sbrk()). FreeBSD's malloc is currently jemalloc. Firefox uses jemalloc on all platforms now because they found that it reduces their fragmentation issues. glibc uses ptmalloc. As I understand it, you can quite happily supply your own malloc implementation on Linux and libc will work with it perfectly happily (though you will have to make sure that no code acc |
| 17:48 | < RichyB> | identally sees the glibc default one). |
| 17:52 | < RichyB> | simon_, this mildly interests me because FreeBSD had something different again. AIUI jemalloc originated outside the FreeBSD project. :) |
| 17:54 | < RichyB> | Oh no, I'm wrong on that count. jemalloc was apparently first implemented in FreeBSD's libc, according to its website. |
| 18:10 | <@Shiz> | glibc uses a heavily modified ptmalloc2 |
| 18:10 | <@Shiz> | it's not really even ptmalloc2 anymore |
| 18:10 | <@Shiz> | from what I read this afternoon |
| 18:22 | <@froztbyte> | you certainly can supplant it |
| 18:22 | <@froztbyte> | the most hilarious part is if you feed a dud malloc in with LD_PRELOAD |
| 18:22 | <@froztbyte> | cool things can be done. |
| 18:22 | <@Shiz> | LD_PRELOAD is cool in general |
| 18:23 | <@Shiz> | I worked around software bugs more than once using it |
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| 21:34 | <~Vornicus> | I need a book recommendation: C# for people who know C and C++ |
| 21:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...do they know any HLLs? |
| 21:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | C# is a lot more closely related to, say, Java than to systems languages. |
| 21:37 | <~Vornicus> | It's for me |
| 21:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | s/they/you/ |
| 21:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | ISTR that you do rather a lot of python, but I'm not sure how helpful that'll be. |
| 21:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | I don't know of any books specifically targeted at that migration path. Sorry. |
| 21:39 | <~Vornicus> | I know a lot of python, a goodly amount of javascript, I get paid to do PHP, and I've done java, ruby, a smidgen of perl... |
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| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | Vorn: I just burned through an O'Reilly book, but there are several |
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| --- Log closed Sat Feb 01 00:00:58 2014 |