| --- Log opened Thu Oct 31 00:00:02 2013 |
| 00:00 | <&McMartin> | Going back to the original question, though |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | "Is the NSA going rogue" is a different question from "Is the NSA's scope excessive" |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | Everything I've seen indicates the answer to the first question is "no" |
| 00:01 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | And I consider the Dual_EC_DRBG case to actually be more like "The NSA is being derelict in its duties" |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | Oho, and the case before was actually the 70s, not the 90s. It was the original DES. |
| 00:03 | <&Derakon> | God dammit Reiver, now I want to work on Jetblade again >.< |
| 00:04 | <&Derakon> | (I note that procgenned platformers are the perfect vehicle for DLC, since each pack can give you a new region, set of powerups, and enemies. |
| 00:05 | <@Tarinaky> | Whatever happened to your procedural Metroidvania thing? |
| 00:05 | <&Derakon> | That's Jetblade. |
| 00:05 | <@Azash> | http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/10/silent-circle-and-lavabit-launch-darkmai l-alliance-to-thwart-e-mail-spying/ |
| 00:05 | <&Derakon> | It got stalled out due to some fundamental design issues. |
| 00:05 | <&Derakon> | Specifically, the procedural generation aspect was overly general. |
| 00:05 | <&Derakon> | It made beautiful cave systems but was hell to build a game around. |
| 00:06 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 00:06 | <&McMartin> | You could make it a melancholy combat-free exploration game! |
| 00:06 | <&Derakon> | And sell 5 copies! |
| 00:07 | <&McMartin> | Proteus sold way more copies than that! |
| 00:07 | <&Derakon> | Well, sell 0 copies if I were to base on the original Jetblade engine, since that's all FOSS. |
| 00:07 | <&McMartin> | For one penny each, but still! |
| 00:07 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 00:07 | <&Derakon> | Jetblade also had the problem that it was aiming for a quote-unquote realistic style. |
| 00:07 | <&Derakon> | Which is harder to do well than a cartoony style would be. |
| 00:09 | | Harlow [Harlow@Nightstar-2dbe3d64.il.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: BED] |
| 00:10 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 00:22 | | * Vornicus should get back to working on Vorntiers, but it's crunch time re: work. |
| 00:23 | | thalass is now known as Thalass|omgherdschool |
| 00:24 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 00:29 | | Thalass|omgherdschool [thalass@Nightstar-u5f.lht.108.58.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:30 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | Hmm. People better at network/crypto than me: |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/10/silent-circle-and-lavabit-launch-darkmai l-alliance-to-thwart-e-mail-spying/ |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | How does encrypted XMPP defeat traffic analysis? |
| 00:38 | <@Reiv> | Didn't lavabit die? |
| 00:38 | <@Reiv> | Or has it since been ungagged? |
| 00:38 | <@Reiv> | I really need a news aggregator that is better at 'keep an eye on this subject'. |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | It looks like it's been partially ungagged: they had been ordered by a judge to turn over their SSL keyes. |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | *keys |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | Also, as you may recall, Corporations Are People |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | Lavabit is totally dead! |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | Darkmail is an entirely different legal entity |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | That happens to share some board members with the defunct Lavabit and Silent Circle entities. |
| 00:40 | <&McMartin> | It's also worth noting that they were ordered to turn over their SSL keys when their reply to standard law enforcement disclosure requests was "we don't store that information" |
| 00:40 | <@Reiv> | ... they can order you to turn over SSL keys |
| 00:40 | <@Reiv> | That's kinda scary. |
| 00:41 | <@Reiv> | hn |
| 00:41 | <@Reiv> | Does that make it more forgivable? |
| 00:41 | <&McMartin> | Well, they *can't*, apparently, order you to actually store information that would be responsive to subpoenas~ |
| 00:41 | <&McMartin> | Uh, that's a complicated question |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | Compared to, say, Germany, this is highly extreme; but Germany also apparently requires you to keep adequate records for them to capture as needed and the gag-order part of such capture is routine instead of requiring something with ominous acronyms. |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | And they're supposed to be one of the best ones out there |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | I admit to preferring "require a certain amount of record-keeping and then never use extreme measures" |
| 00:43 | <&McMartin> | But I'm pretty sure that this makes me a jackbooted thug of the surveilliance state because I'm requiring a certain amount of record-keeping that law enforcement gets access to |
| 00:44 | <&McMartin> | Also, judges can order all kinds of things; that's kinda what the judiciary is for |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | A judge that thinks you're trying to skate on technicalities to hold out on him for stuff he thinks he's entitled to often has a very wide array of options, and I'm pretty sure this is how that judge viewed that. |
| 00:45 | <@Reiv> | So what's the new solution? |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | Especially after they initially provided the SSL key as a printout. |
| 00:45 | <@Reiv> | Also: With all this, I'm still waiting for the New BitTorrent. |
| 00:45 | < Syka_> | at least germany sorta says it up front |
| 00:45 | < Syka_> | as part of doing business, you need to keep these records |
| 00:45 | <@Reiv> | You'd think some cryptogeeks out there would be inventing it. |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | Syka_: Yeah, that's really the question |
| 00:45 | < Syka_> | rather than LOL ALL UR DATA NAOW |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | Well, no |
| 00:46 | < Syka_> | McMartin: then its just a function of doing business |
| 00:46 | < Syka_> | ie. don't do business there if that compromises your business |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | The question is "if "LOL ALL UR DATA NAOW" is a required part of every contract, is that better or worse" |
| 00:46 | < Syka_> | well, I think it's better |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | I call them out here because they're supposed to be the privacy paragons |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | I agree that it is |
| 00:46 | < Syka_> | because then you can clearly avoid it |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | But I also have to admit that it boils down to "trust us" |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | If they *really are* a paragon |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | You have two choices: places that admit it, and places that try to hide it. |
| 00:47 | < Syka_> | but "MURICA FREE SPEECH oh wait no nevermind, give us everything ever and wiretap all your servers :D" |
| 00:47 | < Syka_> | is also bad form |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | That's not what "free speech" means, as I assume you know~ |
| 00:47 | < Syka_> | McMartin: yes :P |
| 00:48 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-oct7j2.sd.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 00:48 | < Syka_> | but america is all for freedomz, and "thats why the terrorists hate us" |
| 00:48 | < Syka_> | and then oh wait, there's a great big police state there |
| 00:48 | < Syka_> | also, does this mean the terrorists won? |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | Dude, America has been a Kenyonesian Maoist Dictatorship since like 2009 |
| 00:49 | < Syka_> | because if they do as they say on the tin |
| 00:49 | < Syka_> | ie. create terror |
| 00:49 | < Syka_> | they seem to have scared the bloody pants off the USG |
| 00:49 | < RichyB> | "<McMartin> How does encrypted XMPP defeat traffic analysis?" â I think that the answer is "it doesn't". |
| 00:49 | <&McMartin> | Syka_: Well, there's usually in there "in the service of a political goal" |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | IIRC the actual goal for 9/11 was "US troops out of Saudi Arabia" |
| 00:50 | < Syka_> | McMartin: Kenyonesnain? |
| 00:50 | < Syka_> | McMartin: you didnt fit the word muslim in there :| |
| 00:50 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:50 | < RichyB> | There are no details in that Ars piece that are particularly interesting aside from the acknowledgement that the DarkMail people are aware of the reasons for which Lavabit was a cryptographic clusterfuck to begin with |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | Syka_: Barack Hussein Obama is totally a Kenyan Indonesian Atheist Muslim Radical Black Liberation Christian |
| 00:50 | < Syka_> | and now Big Brother |
| 00:51 | < Syka_> | man, he's going to require one hell of a nametag |
| 00:51 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, uh, if you think Obama *started* this you have some reading to do, I'm afraid |
| 00:51 | < Syka_> | yes, I know |
| 00:51 | < Syka_> | it's happened since like, the 90s |
| 00:51 | < Syka_> | AT&T black rooms and et |
| 00:51 | < Syka_> | etc* |
| 00:51 | <&McMartin> | More like the 40s. |
| 00:51 | < Syka_> | McMartin: well, yes, foreign stuff |
| 00:51 | < Syka_> | I mean domestic dragnets |
| 00:52 | < RichyB> | (perfect forward secrecy not being a default property + violation of the end-to-end principle) |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | Blanket pen registers go back to the postwar period domestically too, IIRC |
| 00:52 | < Syka_> | ie. it became cheap enough to collect |
| 00:52 | < Syka_> | cheap enough to collect *everything*, rather |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | Granted, pen registers correspond to metadata here, not taps |
| 00:52 | < Syka_> | while before you would have to listen to phone taps |
| 00:52 | <@Reiv> | You know, it was not until this very conversation that I learned that the NSA was SIGINT |
| 00:52 | <@Reiv> | I had thought that the CIA did both avenues. |
| 00:52 | < Syka_> | NSA are sigint? |
| 00:53 | < Syka_> | i thought they were something else |
| 00:53 | < Syka_> | wait no, they are signals intel |
| 00:53 | < RichyB> | Anyway. They're not talking about defeating traffic analysis at all, otherwise they'd have to start by talking about deliberately compromising message delivery latency and efficiency by sending fake messages around a mesh on purpose. |
| 00:53 | < Syka_> | they are foreign sigint, CIA are domestic sigint, I think |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | NSA is exclusively SIGINT, CIA is supposed to be all intel but in practice is largely HUMINT. |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | CIA is supposed to also be purely abroad |
| 00:53 | < Syka_> | who is domestic then? |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | The FBI is domestic stuff, and they count as law enforcement. |
| 00:53 | < Syka_> | oh fbi |
| 00:53 | < Syka_> | right |
| 00:54 | < Syka_> | in australia, we just have the Feds |
| 00:54 | < Syka_> | and ASIO i guess |
| 00:54 | < Syka_> | but theyre also the Feds |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | One nice thing about this is all our alphabet soup bureaucracies have widely available TV shows |
| 00:54 | < Syka_> | one big blob of "we're gonna arrest your ass" |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | Meanwhile, in the US, "The Fed" is the group that controls the money supply |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | (Federal Reserve) |
| 00:54 | < Syka_> | well |
| 00:54 | < Syka_> | i've heard of "the feds" meaning the fbi |
| 00:54 | < Syka_> | ie. on the *chans |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | How much autonomy do Australian provinces (? states?) have |
| 00:55 | < Syka_> | McMartin: it depends |
| 00:55 | < Syka_> | in what element |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, "the feds" are "any element of the Federal Government", really |
| 00:55 | < Syka_> | they are all the federal's bitch |
| 00:55 | < Syka_> | because taxes are federal |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | Yes, that's what supremacy clauses are for |
| 00:55 | < Syka_> | so they have to suck up to the feds for money |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | But the US devolves a lot of stuff, etc |
| 00:55 | < Syka_> | but lots of things are state level |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | Most of educational curricula, standard criminal law, etc |
| 00:55 | < Syka_> | ie. police, education |
| 00:55 | < Syka_> | most of our laws are federal |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | Murder generally speaking isn't a federal crime, it's just illegal in all 50 states |
| 00:56 | < Syka_> | if theyre not, its very minor |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | Fleeing across state lines after murdering someone makes it a federal case. |
| 00:56 | < Syka_> | but, again, with the "federals bitch" |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | (See also the idiom "making a federal case out of it") |
| 00:56 | < Syka_> | if the feds want a law in every state, they'll get it |
| 00:56 | < Syka_> | or the reverse |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 00:56 | < Syka_> | right now the feds are trying to stomp on the ACT's gay marriage law |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | We have a rather grim and obvious counterexample for that here |
| 00:56 | < Syka_> | which is hella ironic |
| 00:57 | < Syka_> | as the ACT is basically what Washington DC is in the US |
| 00:57 | < Syka_> | a tiny bit of land containing the federal capital |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | Ah, this is a place then where the US and Australia share a similar contempt for their own capitals~ |
| 00:57 | < Syka_> | similarly to the US, it has always voted for the left-wing party |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | (DC licence plates have as their semi-official motto "Taxation Without Representation") |
| 00:58 | < Syka_> | hah |
| 00:58 | < Syka_> | well, the ACT is a Territory |
| 00:58 | < Syka_> | territories get screwed |
| 00:58 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:58 | < Syka_> | nearly no federal representation in the senate |
| 00:58 | < Syka_> | which is good |
| 00:58 | < Syka_> | as every Territory we have is shit |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | I have no idea what the deal is with US territories |
| 00:58 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-u5f.lht.108.58.IP] has joined #code |
| 00:58 | < Syka_> | the ACT and the Northern Territory and the shitty islands |
| 00:59 | < thalass> | ? |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | They seem to vary between "what, where, who what?" and "why aren't they a state yet" |
| 00:59 | < Syka_> | none of them deserve a federal vote |
| 00:59 | < thalass> | O_o |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | Thalass: US and AU federal disrespect for non-states |
| 00:59 | < Syka_> | thalass: we are discussing states and things |
| 00:59 | < thalass> | Ah. |
| 00:59 | < Syka_> | seriously, the northern territory is a shithole |
| 00:59 | < Syka_> | they effectively have no speed limit |
| 00:59 | < Syka_> | because there are no police on the highway |
| 00:59 | | * McMartin was ignorant of how "tight" Australia's federal government is over the states |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 01:00 | < Syka_> | and the roads are long, flat and empty |
| 01:00 | < Syka_> | 180kmh with a caravan on is scary |
| 01:00 | < thalass> | Howard made them have a 130km/h limit. The death rate on those long boring highways went up. :P |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | Montana ("Big Sky Country") literally had no speed limit for awhile. |
| 01:00 | < Syka_> | McMartin: but yeah |
| 01:00 | < Syka_> | generally, here |
| 01:00 | < Syka_> | the states are division of work units |
| 01:00 | < thalass> | Admittedly my source for that is Wheels Magazine, who are not unbiased |
| 01:00 | < Syka_> | rather than being entities upon themselves |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | What this actually meant was that it had a *secret* speed limit because it's always OK for them to ticket you for going "too fast for conditions" |
| 01:00 | < thalass> | hee |
| 01:01 | < Syka_> | there are the different laws |
| 01:01 | < Syka_> | but nothing major |
| 01:01 | | * McMartin nods |
| 01:01 | < Syka_> | ie. no "lol pot is legal here" |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | That's more like state-municipal |
| 01:01 | < Syka_> | but mace is legal in WA and nowhere else |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | Oy, pot laws >_< |
| 01:01 | < Syka_> | and the same with e-collar imports |
| 01:01 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: My understanding is that the Australian states have considerably less power than their american counterparts; they're effectively super-councils. |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | We have to do some dancing to make those work. |
| 01:01 | < Syka_> | states rights is not a thing |
| 01:01 | < Syka_> | well |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | The feds are supposed to be mandated by international treaty to crush the states that are legalizing pot |
| 01:02 | < Syka_> | WA has threatened to secceed |
| 01:02 | < Syka_> | because we are the rich one |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | There is mysteriously not enough money in the budget to do this, so tragic |
| 01:02 | < Syka_> | and the rest of the states have no minerals |
| 01:02 | < Syka_> | or anything of worth |
| 01:02 | < Syka_> | right now, NSW is mostly on fire |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | Literally or figuratively |
| 01:02 | < Syka_> | literally |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | (Asks the Californian) |
| 01:02 | < Syka_> | there is a lot of fire there right now |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | ... right, it's moving on towards fire season for you guys, and that would be six months removed from CA fire season |
| 01:02 | < Syka_> | our prime minister is on the ground fighting it, even |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | Damn |
| 01:03 | < Syka_> | he may be a right wing misogynist asshole |
| 01:03 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: There is more Physically On Fire Right Now than there is Sydney, counting the suburbs |
| 01:03 | | * Derakon eyes this channel, wonders why it has morphed into #fleet. |
| 01:03 | < Syka_> | but he does have some redeeming qualities |
| 01:03 | < Syka_> | that, and he's not Fucking Gillard, or Fucking Rudd |
| 01:03 | <@Namegduf> | Most jurisdictions do not actually consider treaties to be directly binding on executive branch/function behaviour (or behaviour of anyone non-governmental for that matter), but consider it a matter for the legislature to either make appropriate law or for people to deal with international repecussions |
| 01:03 | <@Reiv> | Because Syka does not hang out in FLEET. |
| 01:03 | <@Namegduf> | AIUI |
| 01:03 | <@Reiv> | Syka probably should. |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | Namegduf: That soudns about right |
| 01:03 | < Syka_> | what is fleet |
| 01:04 | <&McMartin> | A social channel full of geeks |
| 01:04 | <@Reiv> | Syka: Another channel on the network. Consider it 'the place where this sort of conversation is commonplace'. |
| 01:04 | < Syka_> | wonderful, where do i sign up |
| 01:04 | <@Reiv> | #Code is, in fact, a side-branch of several channels, in which the programmers kept monopolising screenspace with technical discussions on esoteric systems/programs/code assistance |
| 01:05 | < Syka_> | hmm okay it is 9am and i am mildly shaking for some reason |
| 01:05 | < Syka_> | i wonder why this is |
| 01:05 | <@Reiv> | So I kinda figured "Hey why not have a dedicated channel so they don't flood out their own chans, and while we're at it make it cross-channel so that way expertise is not silo'd" |
| 01:06 | <@Reiv> | And thus #Code was born. (I was just too lazy to keep founder status. It's fine, because Vorn is my bromance.) |
| 01:07 | | * thalass reads up |
| 01:08 | < thalass> | We apparently did secede, or at least the referendum passed, but then WW2 kicked in and we realised we didn't have our own military and backed down. :P |
| 01:09 | < Syka_> | rofl |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | I hope Canberra sent a telegram that literally read "You and what army" >_> |
| 01:10 | < thalass> | hah |
| 01:24 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Program Shutting down] |
| 01:31 | | * thalass idly wonders if one could set up a honeypot computer (or VM) for those "tech support" calls to access. |
| 01:31 | < Syka_> | thalass: yeah, it'd be easy |
| 01:31 | < Syka_> | virtualbox + paste some pictures from google on it |
| 01:31 | < Syka_> | set a really bad picture as a background |
| 01:31 | < Syka_> | some text files named DFGBDFG |
| 01:31 | < Syka_> | and they'll never know the difference |
| 01:35 | < thalass> | haha |
| 01:36 | < thalass> | If i had the codefu i'd have one waiting for the next time i got one of those calls. Infect those guys with various viruses etc. Sadly i'm still poking at Python. |
| 01:47 | <@Alek> | thal: it's been done. XD |
| 01:47 | <@Alek> | been linked in here over the past few days, iirc. |
| 01:48 | <@gnolam> | Alek: find it! |
| 01:48 | <@gnolam> | I hope they set Tubgirl as the desktop background. |
| 01:48 | <@Alek> | lazy! |
| 01:49 | <@Alek> | some guy had a win2k vm, set up a bunch of viruses in passwords.zip and a bunch of spacedicks in bankdata.zip, let the logmein in. |
| 01:49 | | * thalass laughs |
| 01:49 | < thalass> | winning |
| 01:49 | <@Alek> | inorite |
| 01:58 | <@Xon> | <ToxicFrog> Anyways. Now it's all encrypted. Hopefully they haven't broken SSL~ |
| 01:58 | <@Xon> | they can just demand the SSL cert and then issue a gag order on google handing over the certs |
| 02:12 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-u5f.lht.108.58.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 02:24 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-be7.ses.145.58.IP] has joined #code |
| 02:41 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-be7.ses.145.58.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 02:46 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-k6vtdf.bigpond.net.au] has joined #code |
| 02:55 | | thalass is now known as Thalass|blocks |
| 03:33 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 04:06 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 04:42 | | Thalass|blocks is now known as Thalass|naptime |
| 04:53 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 04:56 | | den [NSwebIRC@490720.163627.794FC5.2FF71A] has joined #code |
| 04:56 | | den [NSwebIRC@490720.163627.794FC5.2FF71A] has left #code [""] |
| 04:58 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 05:14 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 05:40 | | Xires is now known as ^Xires |
| 06:06 | | Stalker [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has joined #code |
| 06:08 | | iospace [Alexandria@Nightstar-e67f9d08.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 06:16 | | iospace [Alexandria@Nightstar-fkokc2.com] has joined #code |
| 06:16 | | mode/#code [+o iospace] by ChanServ |
| 06:36 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 06:59 | | RichyB [RichyB@Nightstar-c6u.vd5.170.83.IP] has quit [[NS] Quit: Gone.] |
| 07:02 | | RichyB [RichyB@Nightstar-c6u.vd5.170.83.IP] has joined #code |
| 07:24 | | Vornicus [vorn@Nightstar-sn7kve.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 07:24 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 07:27 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 07:39 | | Thalass|naptime is now known as Thalass |
| 08:04 | | Stalker [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 08:57 | <&McMartin> | OK, it looks like Monocle mostly builds on MinGW after some makefile tweaks. |
| 08:58 | <&McMartin> | I'll have to experiment more thoroughly to let it coexist, and I don't trust the exports yet. |
| 08:58 | <&McMartin> | But I got the demo to build! https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/games/DD/earthball_demo.zip |
| 09:29 | | Thalass is now known as Sleep_Deprivation_Zombie |
| 09:35 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 10:24 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 10:41 | | AverageJoe [evil1@Nightstar-dfmuir.ph.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 11:01 | <@Tarinaky> | I would like to convey my sincerest thanks to all of the lecturers out there who actually do send emails informing the students in advance of their intentions to take part in strike activity. |
| 11:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Instead of leaving me as the only mook sat up here on my own wondering where the fuck everyone else is ;/ |
| 11:04 | | Reiv [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-95746c1f.kinect.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 11:07 | | * TheWatcher isn't boethering striking today, can't see the point |
| 11:07 | <@TheWatcher> | You know that definition of insanity, the "repeating the same actions and expecting different outcomes"? |
| 11:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah |
| 11:09 | <@TheWatcher> | I've yet to recieve a straight answer to the simple question "Exactly how is this strike supposed to produce a useful outcome when the ones in previous years did bugger all?" |
| 11:09 | <@TheWatcher> | Especially when they've timed it during Reading Week at many universities. |
| 11:13 | <@TheWatcher> | AUT is too scared to upset anyone to stage any effective action, frankly. |
| 11:13 | <@TheWatcher> | *UCU |
| 11:13 | <@TheWatcher> | whatever they're calling themselves this week |
| 11:14 | | AverageJoe [evil1@Nightstar-dfmuir.ph.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 11:15 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not entirely sure there's anyone university staff can upset who have any more power than they do. |
| 11:15 | <@Tarinaky> | It's not like the students have had much success with their own peacful (and not so peaceful) protests of late. |
| 11:16 | | Sleep_Deprivation_Zombie is now known as Thalass |
| 11:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Normally these kinds of things are effective because businesses and quasi-government agencies have contracts/licenses that they have to meet or incurr fines and there's a fiscal penalty for not meeting them. |
| 11:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Or the action has a meaningful and noticable impact on the bottom line |
| 11:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Otherwise the staff're just creating more work for themselves to catch up the lost day while the business is happy to let the lost day come out in the wash. |
| 11:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Yep |
| 11:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Last truly successful strike we staged was back before sympathy strikes were made illegal, and we got the porters to walk out in sympathy. |
| 11:18 | <@TheWatcher> | That shut down entire campuses. |
| 11:18 | < Thalass> | sympathy strikes are illegal? |
| 11:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Yep |
| 11:18 | < Thalass> | geez |
| 11:19 | <@Tarinaky> | Thanks Robot Thatcher Obama. |
| 11:19 | <@Reiver> | it's how Thatcher broke the miner strikes |
| 11:20 | <@TheWatcher> | Actually, not quite |
| 11:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Forgive my ignorance, but does losing a day actually hurt a universities bottom line? |
| 11:20 | <@TheWatcher> | Thatcher restricted sympathy strikes pretty severely, but didn't outlaw them |
| 11:20 | <@TheWatcher> | John Major outlawed them |
| 11:20 | <@Reiver> | ... can't help but notice an awful lot of the UK mining industry is dead now |
| 11:20 | <@Tarinaky> | I thought a lot of their funding would be... mostly independent of that and it's not like the Student's can demand back 1/260th of their Tuition Fee. |
| 11:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Reiver: It was 'dying' during the mining strikes, that's what the strikes were over. |
| 11:23 | <@Tarinaky> | Granted small scale collary operations are still profitable - and there's been some movement of alte to license out those kinds of operations - but nothing of the scale of the 1970s is possible short of the government burying money and inviting bids from private companies to dig it back up. |
| 11:26 | < Thalass> | heh |
| 11:26 | < Thalass> | So you're saying these resources are finite? Blasphemy! |
| 11:27 | <@JustBob> | I'd say it has more to do with the fact that these days, you pay half again the costs of mining in environmental mitigation. |
| 11:27 | <@TheWatcher> | Plus it's cheaper to import coal than pay miner's wages |
| 11:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Plus there's less dependence, in Britain, and less domestic demand for coal. |
| 11:28 | <@TheWatcher> | We still have a shitton of coal in the yorkshire and welsh coalfields, but raising it just isn't economically viable |
| 11:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Whereas back in the 70s this is how people heated their homes. |
| 11:28 | <@TheWatcher> | Yep |
| 11:29 | <@JustBob> | Tsk, tsk. The iron fist of economics, striking down an industry. |
| 11:30 | <@Tarinaky> | Off the top of my head China's the only country building coal plants en-mass and they have a lot more, cheaper, and more proximate sources of coal that they're not touching the sides of yet. |
| 11:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Maybe in the post-apocalyptic post-WW3/Fallout-esque world the only people who'd survive would be welsh and yorkshire coal miners and Sheffield would become the center of the new world order. |
| 11:32 | <@Tarinaky> | But until then~ |
| 11:32 | <@JustBob> | Snort. |
| 11:32 | <@JustBob> | Fairly unlikely. |
| 11:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Everything is better with Steampunk :) |
| 11:34 | < Thalass> | hee |
| 11:35 | | * TheWatcher drops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCuE5rHbPA on Tarinaky |
| 11:35 | <@Tarinaky> | That is the video I expected you to link to. I was not disappointed. |
| 11:36 | <@TheWatcher> | Jolly good. |
| 11:37 | <@Tarinaky> | I meant steampunk in the 'coal-fired steam engine as primary means of generating power' sense, rather than gears :p |
| 11:39 | <@Tarinaky> | People who insist it has to be set in or from the past are being silly and missing the point. |
| 11:40 | <@Reiver> | That song is the best song. |
| 11:40 | <@Reiver> | I am pleased the brits decided to share their injoke. |
| 11:41 | <@Reiver> | (I also agree with that song /so very much/, zomg. |
| 11:41 | <@Reiver> | Why do they screw that up so lazy ;_;) |
| 11:41 | <@Tarinaky> | http://imgur.com/NsQlc57 |
| 11:42 | <@TheWatcher> | >.< |
| 11:42 | <@Tarinaky> | Note for the foreigners: In Britain 'high speed' roughly translates as 85mph on a clear day with no wind. |
| 11:43 | <@TheWatcher> | And no leaves on the line |
| 11:43 | <@Tarinaky> | Or snow. Or rain. |
| 11:44 | <@Tarinaky> | With perfectly spherical passengers in a vacuum. |
| 11:49 | <@Tarinaky> | In practice they'll probably run closer to 50 or 60 mph including the time taken for stops. Which is 10mph slower than the legal speed limit on the motorways and about 30mph slower than the speed everyone actually drives. |
| 11:51 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah. It now takes 50 minutes to get the 15 miles into manchester from here on the train |
| 11:52 | <@Tarinaky> | All that said I am in favour of the high-speed rail link and the only people who oppose it are NIMBY. There are very good technical reasons why the trains are so slow in this country and no inexpensive fix. |
| 11:54 | < Syka_> | Tarinaky: hyperloop? |
| 11:54 | <@Tarinaky> | Hyperloop? |
| 11:54 | < Syka_> | elon musk's thing |
| 11:54 | <@Tarinaky> | I have no idea what you're talking about. |
| 11:54 | < Thalass> | whee hyperloop |
| 11:54 | < Syka_> | "A hyperloop would be, according to Musk, "an elevated, reduced-pressure tube that contains pressurized capsules driven within the tube by a number of linear electric motors."" |
| 11:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Ahh. |
| 11:55 | < Syka_> | "...a hyperloop would enable travel from the Los Angeles region to the San Francisco Bay Area in 35 minutes, meaning that passengers would traverse the proposed 354-mile (570 km) route at an average speed of just under 598 mph (962 km/h), and a top speed of 760 mph (1,220 km/h)." |
| 11:56 | < Syka_> | how's that for some speed |
| 11:57 | <@Tarinaky> | In terms of practicality and cynicism (and the lack of eagerness to fund any large building projects) the most likely speculative technology 'fix' to transportation are self-driving cars, flock-behavior research and automobile 'trains'. |
| 11:57 | < Thalass> | I think it would work, for what it's worth. Whether it's economically feasible is another story. But i don't care about monies, i just want things to be built. |
| 11:57 | <@Tarinaky> | Truthfully we need cheap/bulk passenger transportation more than fast. |
| 11:57 | <@Tarinaky> | And anything that allows the existing motorways to be used more efficiently is a boon. |
| 11:58 | < Thalass> | Tarinaky: Automobile trains? As in small carriages available on demand from a multitude of small stations? I like those. They'd be simpler than self driving taxis, due to the restricted routes and dedicated rail/road. Self driving cars are a must, though. |
| 11:58 | < Thalass> | I haaaate commuting. And an extra half an hour of sleep would be good. |
| 11:59 | < Syka_> | I have a bitch of a commute |
| 11:59 | < Syka_> | my bed is all the way over there |
| 11:59 | < Syka_> | :( |
| 11:59 | <@Tarinaky> | Thalass: Not much simpler than a self-driving taxi. Just smaller and lighter in weight since they don't need to bring a driver with them. |
| 12:00 | | * Thalass nods |
| 12:00 | | * Thalass shakesfist at Syka_ |
| 12:00 | <@Tarinaky> | And probably a much smaller engine. |
| 12:00 | | * Thalass ponders |
| 12:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Also has the advantage, over a train, that still get your 'bubble' of personal space that you get in a car. |
| 12:01 | <@Tarinaky> | Which removes the main problem with public transport - namely the public. |
| 12:01 | < Thalass> | There's no point doing it if it's not electric. Though i am biased. The mini train cars would be able to be powered from overhead wires, too. Not as feasible on the road. |
| 12:01 | < Syka_> | Thalass: that being said |
| 12:01 | < Syka_> | Thalass: it takes me an hour to get out of bed and in a state where I am operational |
| 12:02 | < Syka_> | :P |
| 12:02 | <@froztbyte> | ehhhh |
| 12:02 | | * Thalass laughs |
| 12:02 | <@froztbyte> | that's a bit bad |
| 12:02 | <@froztbyte> | you probably need a better bed |
| 12:02 | <@froztbyte> | and a better diet |
| 12:02 | <@froztbyte> | :D |
| 12:02 | < Syka_> | well, no |
| 12:02 | <@Tarinaky> | The main benefit of it being electric is you don't need a mechanical transmission. |
| 12:02 | < Syka_> | froztbyte: have you /seen/ my hair |
| 12:02 | <@froztbyte> | Syka_: yes |
| 12:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Which means less weight, which means less power is needed etc... |
| 12:02 | <@froztbyte> | Syka_: why does that matter? |
| 12:02 | < Syka_> | it is impossible to get in and out of the shower in under 40 minutes :( |
| 12:02 | <@froztbyte> | burn it all off |
| 12:02 | <@froztbyte> | (also it is, you just need to level up) |
| 12:03 | < Thalass> | I still want my Tesla Model S, though. An autopilot would be good for the commute, but i like to stomp on the go pedal sometimes. :P |
| 12:03 | <@Tarinaky> | It's not like any of the existing transportation technologies are pure-electric. |
| 12:03 | < Syka_> | froztbyte: i put all my skill points in tea drinking |
| 12:03 | <@Tarinaky> | Even electric trains ultimately get their electricity from a fossil fuel plant. |
| 12:03 | < Syka_> | Tarinaky: Depends(TM) |
| 12:03 | <@Tarinaky> | And many of them have a diesel engine as well. |
| 12:04 | < Syka_> | Tarinaky: yeah the electricity source can be anywhere |
| 12:04 | < Syka_> | but, that's not the point |
| 12:04 | < Thalass> | Meh. The energy has to come from somewhere. Coal plants are still less polluting than petrol engines, as are diesel electrics compared to straight diesel. Though neither are better than wind/solar/magic powered etc. |
| 12:04 | < Syka_> | mass created electricity in a power plant is much less damaging per mW than car engines |
| 12:05 | < Syka_> | it's not the /best/, but |
| 12:05 | < Syka_> | you can also switch out, say, coal for solar |
| 12:05 | < Thalass> | i'm going to have a basement full of hobo slaves on exercise bikes to charge my car. >.> |
| 12:05 | <@Tarinaky> | But it's not a killer for the idea. |
| 12:05 | < Syka_> | without changing anything in the middle |
| 12:05 | < Syka_> | which is a huge benefit |
| 12:05 | <@Tarinaky> | It doesn't /require/ electric cars for the idea to provide a saving over regular cars. |
| 12:05 | <@Tarinaky> | Which is ultimately what you're competing with. |
| 12:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Any fuel saving is a fuel saving. |
| 12:07 | < Thalass> | true |
| 12:07 | < Thalass> | I just haaaate lining up for petrol, paying nearly $1.50/L for something i don't want, feeling like someone forced to line up for a shot of heroin or something. |
| 12:07 | < Syka_> | $1.50/L? |
| 12:07 | < Syka_> | lucky |
| 12:08 | | * Syka_ eyes $1.93 at her local BP |
| 12:08 | < Thalass> | sheez is that for premium? |
| 12:08 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh how cute. The American is complaining about fuel prices to the Europeans :p |
| 12:08 | < Syka_> | Thalass: no, standard 85 octane |
| 12:08 | < RichyB> | Hey fuck you and your quid a litre. |
| 12:08 | < Syka_> | or 87 |
| 12:08 | < Thalass> | Australian. But yes, i know it's up towards $2.50 or so over there |
| 12:08 | < Syka_> | whatever standard is |
| 12:08 | < Syka_> | the premium is nearer to $2 |
| 12:09 | < Syka_> | BUT, I drive a moped |
| 12:09 | <@JustBob> | Waaah, waaaah, I pay $3.41 for 3.785 liters. |
| 12:09 | <@JustBob> | SO EXPENSIVE. |
| 12:09 | < Syka_> | which has a 50cc engine |
| 12:09 | <@froztbyte> | 85 octane? |
| 12:09 | <@froztbyte> | lolzipants |
| 12:09 | < Syka_> | a 5L tank |
| 12:09 | <@froztbyte> | 95, bitches |
| 12:09 | < Thalass> | moped win |
| 12:09 | < Syka_> | and gets 250km to said tank |
| 12:09 | <@froztbyte> | VROOM VROOM MOTHERFUCKERS |
| 12:09 | < Syka_> | I have spent $150 on fuel in ~20 months |
| 12:09 | < RichyB> | Syka_, nice. :) |
| 12:09 | <@froztbyte> | I wish I could put racing fuel in my scooter |
| 12:09 | < Syka_> | that is about one tank of my parents landcruiser |
| 12:09 | <@JustBob> | Snerk. |
| 12:09 | <@froztbyte> | but it'd probably explode |
| 12:09 | <@JustBob> | I was about to say. I spend that much every few days. |
| 12:09 | < Syka_> | they use diesel tho |
| 12:09 | < Thalass> | If the bastards would let me pass my license test, i'd be riding my motorcycle everywhere instead of the crusty old car. :P |
| 12:10 | < Syka_> | which is slightly different |
| 12:10 | < Syka_> | but yeah |
| 12:10 | < Syka_> | $8 a month on fuel or something |
| 12:10 | < Syka_> | shit's great |
| 12:10 | < Syka_> | it' |
| 12:10 | < Thalass> | booya |
| 12:10 | < Syka_> | its cost me more servicing it |
| 12:10 | < Syka_> | which you're supposed to do every 1000kms |
| 12:10 | < Syka_> | it's at 3900km now and I've done it twice (the 2nd at 3800km) |
| 12:10 | <@froztbyte> | jeez. |
| 12:10 | <@froztbyte> | I'm on 26000km or something ;p |
| 12:11 | < Syka_> | froztbyte: yes, well, you had a day job for most of your owning it :P |
| 12:11 | <@froztbyte> | Syka_: my day job was close for most of that time |
| 12:11 | <@froztbyte> | like, 8km |
| 12:11 | < Syka_> | dgfndg |
| 12:11 | < Syka_> | 8km is not close |
| 12:11 | <@froztbyte> | driving to the office is not the main thing I did :P |
| 12:12 | <@froztbyte> | Syka_: 8km is pretty close |
| 12:12 | < Syka_> | 8km is far away :< |
| 12:12 | <@froztbyte> | you have seen joburg, right? |
| 12:12 | < Syka_> | to the shops here is 3km |
| 12:12 | <@froztbyte> | shit's /wide/. |
| 12:12 | < Syka_> | and it's so longggg and I am like argghhh |
| 12:12 | < Syka_> | why is there a highwayyyy |
| 12:12 | <@froztbyte> | cute |
| 12:12 | < Syka_> | froztbyte: it'd be 2km, if my roads were sane |
| 12:12 | < Syka_> | every road in town is a curve |
| 12:12 | < Syka_> | every. single. one. |
| 12:13 | <@Tarinaky> | That's because the Earth is a sphere and not flat. |
| 12:13 | < Syka_> | Tarinaky: no I mean |
| 12:13 | < Syka_> | you have turned 70 degrees in 250m |
| 12:13 | <@Tarinaky> | I know, I was just being annoying ;P |
| 12:13 | < Syka_> | back where I used to live, there was the largest blind corner ever |
| 12:14 | < Syka_> | it was a good 700m of a turn that is just sharp enough to not see more than 30m or so |
| 12:14 | <@JustBob> | Hrm. |
| 12:14 | < Syka_> | and EVERYONE on that street had hedges |
| 12:14 | < Syka_> | I almost got hit by a car on that road :U |
| 12:14 | <@JustBob> | You know, I think the US love affair with cars correlates to the fact that we developed sprawlwise, instead of concentrated urban areas. |
| 12:14 | < Syka_> | actually, no, I did get hit by a car |
| 12:14 | <@JustBob> | I mean, the oldest towns in the US are, what, a fifth the age of London? |
| 12:15 | < Syka_> | some guy backed out of his driveway, which was flanked by two thick hedges |
| 12:15 | < Syka_> | JustBob: the US also has Places |
| 12:15 | < Syka_> | that are Far Away |
| 12:15 | <@JustBob> | Well, yes. |
| 12:15 | < Syka_> | a roadtrip is a thing in the US |
| 12:15 | <@Tarinaky> | Nah, everywhere developed sprawlwise. |
| 12:15 | < Syka_> | in the UK, everything is like 12 metres away |
| 12:15 | <@JustBob> | I live in a state with counties bigger than some /other states/, I note. |
| 12:16 | < Syka_> | brighton is 20 minutes down the road |
| 12:16 | <@Tarinaky> | It has more to do with the state of the postwar US and the automobile as a symbol of wealth and status. |
| 12:16 | < Syka_> | my local county/shire is 1/3rd the size of Germany |
| 12:16 | <@Tarinaky> | But conurbation is a thing everywhere. |
| 12:16 | <@JustBob> | (This actually gets amusingly weird; I live in Corvallis, and I can literally walk or bike everywhere. Driving's actually a hassle, most of the time.) |
| 12:16 | < Syka_> | and it contains 7,000 people |
| 12:16 | < Syka_> | :D |
| 12:17 | <@Tarinaky> | And a lot of continental cities are planned in the same way as American cities. |
| 12:17 | < Thalass> | I'm fairly sure the car is largely responsible for urban sprawl, yes. |
| 12:17 | < Syka_> | Tarinaky: cities are planned? |
| 12:17 | <@JustBob> | Yes. |
| 12:17 | < Syka_> | Tarinaky: from going to several, I find this incredibly hard to believe |
| 12:17 | <@JustBob> | You just have to bomb them flat, first. |
| 12:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Syka_: Paris, very famously. |
| 12:17 | <~Vornicus> | Syka_: you live in europe, don't you. |
| 12:17 | < Syka_> | hahahahaha |
| 12:17 | < Thalass> | in short term chunks, yes |
| 12:17 | < Syka_> | Vornicus: Australia! |
| 12:17 | < Syka_> | actually |
| 12:17 | < Syka_> | relatedly |
| 12:17 | <~Vornicus> | Weird. |
| 12:17 | < Syka_> | who knows about Darwin here |
| 12:17 | < Thalass> | Now there are two of us |
| 12:17 | < Syka_> | Vornicus: Perth is just a really shit city |
| 12:17 | <@froztbyte> | JustBob: that early? |
| 12:18 | < Syka_> | so what happened with Darwin |
| 12:18 | <@froztbyte> | london's been around for over 2000 years |
| 12:18 | < Thalass> | heh |
| 12:18 | <~Vornicus> | Thal: three |
| 12:18 | < Thalass> | woot |
| 12:18 | < Syka_> | in the 1940s, it got bombed to shit by the Japanese |
| 12:18 | < Syka_> | absolutely fucking flattened |
| 12:18 | < Syka_> | so they rebuilt |
| 12:18 | <@Tarinaky> | froztbyte: Arguably it may or may not be older than that under a different name. The evidence is just a bit weaker since the Celts weren't as good at book-keeping as the Romans. |
| 12:18 | < Syka_> | 1974, Cyclone Tracy |
| 12:18 | < Thalass> | Rebuilt |
| 12:18 | < Syka_> | hit on Christmas Day |
| 12:18 | < Thalass> | hehe |
| 12:18 | <@froztbyte> | Tarinaky: yeah, something like that |
| 12:19 | < Syka_> | the smallest tropical cyclone ever |
| 12:19 | <@froztbyte> | it's been a place for a while |
| 12:19 | < Syka_> | like, I am fairly sure it has been the smallest cyclone ever |
| 12:19 | < Syka_> | it hit Darwin /directly/ |
| 12:19 | <@JustBob> | froztbyte - If we ignore the native cities, the oldest US town that's been continuously inhabited was 1607 or something. |
| 12:19 | <@JustBob> | So, yes, about a fifth. :p |
| 12:19 | < Syka_> | they rebuilt |
| 12:19 | < Syka_> | they are due for another flattening |
| 12:19 | <@froztbyte> | JustBob: ah, interesting |
| 12:19 | < Syka_> | and after going to Darwin for holidays, they need it |
| 12:20 | < Thalass> | *snerk* |
| 12:20 | < Syka_> | because Darwin is a terrible place that is full of miserable people |
| 12:20 | <@froztbyte> | Syka_: become a terrist, blow 'em to the ground |
| 12:20 | < Thalass> | That's because it's too hot. |
| 12:20 | < Syka_> | because what else would you be if you lived in the NT |
| 12:20 | <@froztbyte> | Thalass: Tamber's also from weirdcountry |
| 12:20 | < Syka_> | other than absolutely miserable |
| 12:20 | <@froztbyte> | (if you were wondering about the third) |
| 12:20 | < Syka_> | but yeah |
| 12:21 | < Syka_> | Perth and my town has given me no confidence in city/town planning, anywhere |
| 12:21 | < Thalass> | on that topic: apparently a cache of explosives has been found a few hours south of Perth. (Australind area) |
| 12:21 | < Syka_> | Thalass: great |
| 12:21 | <@JustBob> | Heh. It depends on the city; Portland is fairly well-planned. |
| 12:21 | < Syka_> | maybe they can get rid of the fucking convention centre with it |
| 12:21 | <@JustBob> | Down to the UGB. |
| 12:21 | < Syka_> | and have some left to flatten that abnoxious bus station |
| 12:21 | < Syka_> | obnoxious? |
| 12:21 | < Thalass> | Even the new suburb i live in, in Perth, was planned by several children with ADHD. Large main road, roundabout, tiny residential street, roundabout, moar big road. |
| 12:21 | < Thalass> | wtf |
| 12:22 | < Syka_> | Thalass: haha |
| 12:22 | < Syka_> | theres some fuss over here |
| 12:22 | <@Tarinaky> | Who here is familiar with the 'Magic Roundabout'? |
| 12:22 | < Syka_> | Tarinaky: the UK roundabout? |
| 12:22 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 12:22 | < Syka_> | aka The Roundabout Of Oh God Why? |
| 12:22 | < Syka_> | I have seen it |
| 12:22 | < Thalass> | I've seen the image. That must be some powerful drugs the planners were on |
| 12:22 | <@Tarinaky> | Why is very simple. It's actually brilliant. |
| 12:22 | < Syka_> | I have been hunting for it on Euro Truck Simulator 2 |
| 12:23 | < Thalass> | hah |
| 12:23 | < Syka_> | Tarinaky: in Australia, that wouldbe an intersection |
| 12:23 | < Syka_> | because fuck traffic control |
| 12:23 | <@Tarinaky> | The traffic flows in two directions, around the large roundabout and the other way amongst the smaller roundabouts. |
| 12:23 | < Syka_> | god, now i have an urge to play cities xl again |
| 12:23 | < Syka_> | and make a city with not shit roads |
| 12:23 | < Syka_> | because every city I make ends up having a giant congestion place |
| 12:23 | <@Tarinaky> | And everything is clearly signposted and it's easy to get through if you just treat each roundabout as, well... a roundabout. |
| 12:24 | <@Tarinaky> | And if you don't know how to tackle a roundabout you shouldn't be driving in the UK. |
| 12:24 | < Syka_> | haha |
| 12:24 | < Thalass> | It's insanity. Why not use a single large roundabout. Or, if the traffic is that bad, intelligent traffic lights. Or bloody cloverleaf onrampy things. Anything but that hellmouth. |
| 12:24 | < Thalass> | :P |
| 12:24 | < Syka_> | we have roundabouts here |
| 12:24 | < Syka_> | in town |
| 12:24 | < Syka_> | no traffic lights, at all |
| 12:24 | < Syka_> | it's brilliant because all the asphalt is shoved up into mini hills |
| 12:25 | < Syka_> | so navigating it on a moped is like playing Lego Racers where everyone has an oil slick deployed |
| 12:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Thalass: The honest answer is none of them would work as well. |
| 12:25 | <@Tarinaky> | The Magic Roundabout is an amazing example of British Engineering :p |
| 12:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Works fine, looks nightmarish. |
| 12:25 | < Syka_> | oh man |
| 12:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Best not to think about it too closely~ |
| 12:25 | < Thalass> | I fix British Aerospace Engineering aircraft for a living. I know all about "British Engineering" :P |
| 12:26 | < Syka_> | theres this great picture of British Engineering |
| 12:26 | < Syka_> | let me find it |
| 12:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Engineered in Britain, built in India :p |
| 12:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Thing that pisses me off about roundabouts are that their proponents claim that they "reduce congestion" |
| 12:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Yeah... no. The Magic Roundabout is by all accounts a special case. |
| 12:27 | <@TheWatcher> | I would dearly love to invite such people to try and get off the M67 at hattersley, or deal with several of the roundabouts on the junctions on M60 |
| 12:28 | < Syka_> | sigh cant fins it |
| 12:28 | < Syka_> | it has like |
| 12:28 | < Syka_> | a ramp |
| 12:28 | < Syka_> | and then it did a 180 and ended in stairs down |
| 12:28 | < Syka_> | it was completely useless |
| 12:29 | < Syka_> | and absolutelt |
| 12:29 | < Thalass> | Roundabouts are good for medium traffic, no more than three lanes at most (clearly marked L S R lanes, too). After that traffic lights then cloverleaf things. Seriously, the road planners here need to go overseas and see how freeways are supposed to work |
| 12:29 | < Syka_> | sums up the stereotypical british attitude |
| 12:29 | < Thalass> | You aren't supposed to get stuck at a traffic lights when coming off or going on the freeway! |
| 12:29 | | * TheWatcher wonders if he can find a picture of the Offramp To Nowhere on the Manchunian Way |
| 12:30 | <@Tarinaky> | It's worth noting that a lot of European motorways, like everything else in Europe, are older than their American equivalents. |
| 12:30 | < Syka_> | the bridge to nowhereeee |
| 12:30 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code |
| 12:31 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 12:34 | <@TheWatcher> | http://goo.gl/maps/N9WVM - there we go |
| 12:34 | <@TheWatcher> | that one always amuses me when I see it. Really wish they'd remove the barriers >.> |
| 12:35 | <@JustBob> | http://ghostramps.blogspot.com/ |
| 12:35 | <@Tarinaky> | What am I looking at? |
| 12:38 | <@TheWatcher> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancunian_Way#Oddities |
| 12:39 | | * TheWatcher eyes http://ghostramps.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/these-are-two-of-portlands-most-famous. html |
| 12:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Ahhh. |
| 12:44 | | Vornicus [vorn@Nightstar-sn7kve.sd.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 12:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Who would I be best served poking with Control Theory questions? |
| 12:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Vorn? |
| 12:59 | <@Tarinaky> | JustBob? |
| 13:04 | <@Tarinaky> | (the Gods? >.<) |
| 14:04 | < RichyB> | Ask 'em anyway and *then* poke people. |
| 14:04 | <@Azash> | Syka_: Reminds me of this gift from Manchester http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44422000/jpg/_44422059_logo203.jpg |
| 14:04 | <@Azash> | (a logo for some bus service) |
| 14:04 | < RichyB> | I don't know any Control Theory but |
| 14:05 | < RichyB> | at the very least, phrasing your question in IRC might cause your brain to untangle it and figure out the answer :) |
| 14:05 | < Syka_> | azash: 404 |
| 14:05 | < RichyB> | See "rubber duck debugging". :) |
| 14:05 | < Syka_> | wait |
| 14:05 | < Syka_> | no |
| 14:06 | < Syka_> | thats irssi connectbot being dumb |
| 14:06 | < Syka_> | also, haha |
| 14:24 | <@Tarinaky> | RichyB: Sadly my questions aren't very rubber-duck friendly. |
| 14:24 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't understand how Laplace and Z-transforms are useful. |
| 14:27 | <@Tarinaky> | I mean... that's not even a question :/ |
| 14:43 | < RichyB> | I have no idea either. :) |
| 15:10 | | Thalass is now known as thalasleep |
| 15:17 | | Stalker [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has joined #code |
| 16:02 | <@Azash> | http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/10/meet-badbios-the-mysterious-mac-and-pc-m alware-that-jumps-airgaps/ |
| 16:06 | <@TheWatcher> | ... that's pretty damned freaky |
| 16:16 | <@gnolam> | "Strangest of all was the ability of infected machines to transmit small amounts of network data with other infected machines even when their power cords and Ethernet cables were unplugged and their Wi-Fi and Bluetooth cards were removed." |
| 16:16 | <@gnolam> | Color me skeptical. |
| 16:17 | < Syka_> | gnolam: by power cords |
| 16:17 | < Syka_> | they mean running off battery |
| 16:17 | < Syka_> | also check 0xabadidea's twitter |
| 16:17 | < Syka_> | about the communication |
| 16:17 | < Syka_> | sonic audio communication is a Real Thing, it seema |
| 16:18 | <@gnolam> | In which case it's still sensationalist, which also justfies my ceasing reading the article at that point. :P |
| 16:18 | <@Azash> | Ruiu is credible and the malware in question is worrisome |
| 16:18 | < Syka_> | well, you can run ethernet through power lines :p |
| 16:19 | <@Azash> | And yeah afaik communicating using mic/speakers isn't a new thing either |
| 16:27 | <@froztbyte> | gnolam: the non-sensationalized version |
| 16:27 | <@froztbyte> | gnolam: is that it wasn't pulsecoding on power-line by varying power draw or some kind of shit like that |
| 16:27 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 16:27 | <@froztbyte> | gnolam: but using internal speakers to send messages |
| 16:28 | <@froztbyte> | Syka_: sonic comms has been A Thing for/ever/ ;p |
| 16:28 | <@froztbyte> | even on computers |
| 16:28 | <@froztbyte> | how do you think modems work? |
| 16:28 | <@froztbyte> | (do you know what modem stands for?) |
| 16:31 | < Syka_> | uhhh |
| 16:31 | < Syka_> | i think so |
| 16:31 | < Syka_> | modulating something |
| 16:33 | <@froztbyte> | modulator demodulator |
| 16:33 | <@froztbyte> | modulation being the process of encoding bits into soundwaves |
| 16:33 | <@froztbyte> | and demodulation the inverse |
| 16:33 | < Syka_> | yeah |
| 16:33 | <@froztbyte> | "acoustic couplers" were places you could put your phone handset |
| 16:33 | < Syka_> | froztbyte: I /am/ old enough to remember 56k :< |
| 16:33 | <@froztbyte> | the first gen of near-field comms~! |
| 16:34 | <@froztbyte> | Syka_: remembering is a different thing from understanding or knowing |
| 16:34 | <@froztbyte> | Syka_: which is why I asked |
| 16:34 | < Syka_> | :p |
| 16:34 | < Syka_> | but yeah |
| 17:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ahahaha |
| 17:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | So, internal tools that need to display a tty progress bar often use a cute library that shows something like this: |
| 17:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | download 85% |Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooogle.......| Time: 00:00:07 |
| 17:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Today, they are instead doing |
| 17:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | download 100% |Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaains| Time: 00:00:00 |
| 17:24 | <@Tamber> | Hee |
| 17:41 | < Ogredude> | nice. |
| 17:52 | | ^Xires is now known as Xires |
| 18:04 | <@froztbyte> | hey ToxicFrog |
| 18:04 | <@froztbyte> | may I bother you in a /query for a moment? |
| 18:05 | <@gnolam> | http://jakepoz.com/soviet_debugging.html |
| 18:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | froztbyte: rock on |
| 18:20 | <@froztbyte> | gnolam: that's fantastic |
| 18:34 | <@Tarinaky> | Wouldn't sticking a thick piece of dense debris along the side of the computer have fixed the problem? |
| 18:34 | <@Tarinaky> | Or at least, mitigated it somewhat. |
| 18:35 | <@Tarinaky> | (Obviously, I mean the technial problem - not the food safety problem) |
| 18:48 | < Stalker> | gnolam: Cute. |
| 18:49 | | jerith_ [jerith@Nightstar-ngcnma.slipgate.za.net] has joined #code |
| 18:49 | | froztbyt1 [froztbyte@Nightstar-frrora.za.net] has joined #code |
| 18:49 | | SyloqAgain [Syloq@Nightstar-ujl.ett.136.198.IP] has joined #code |
| 18:49 | | Xon2 [Xon@Nightstar-bd4.haq.23.203.IP] has joined #code |
| 18:49 | | Tarinaky_ [tarinaky@Nightstar-e99cts.net] has joined #code |
| 18:49 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: @jerith, @Alek, @JustBob, @Tarinaky, @PinkFreud, @Xon, @Orthia, @Typherix, @jeroud, @Attilla, (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) |
| 18:49 | | SyloqAgain is now known as Syloq |
| 18:49 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-avg.1ee.224.119.IP] has joined #code |
| 18:49 | | PinkFreu1 [WhyNot@Nightstar-171.q08.242.50.IP] has joined #code |
| 18:49 | | Attilla [uid13723@Nightstar-ed0oqj.irccloud.com] has joined #code |
| 18:49 | < Tarinaky_> | Stupid question: Are there any utilities designed to determine, by brute force, what a particular character set a section of English is encoded in? |
| 18:49 | < Tarinaky_> | Copying and pasting from this PDF yields a line of special characters. |
| 18:49 | < Tarinaky_> | I suspect foreign charactersets are involved. |
| 18:50 | | froztbyt1 is now known as froztbyte |
| 18:50 | | jeroud [uid10043@Nightstar-a1k27g.irccloud.com] has joined #code |
| 18:50 | | Turaiel[Offline] [Brandon@Nightstar-bs56sr.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #code |
| 18:50 | | JustBob [justbob@Nightstar-uoh7vd.or.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 18:50 | < Tarinaky_> | Naturally, the channel dies as I ask my question so I will copy+paste so everyone sees it. |
| 18:50 | < Tarinaky_> | 18:49 < Tarinaky_> Stupid question: Are there any utilities designed to determine, by brute force, what a particular character set a section of English is encoded in? |
| 18:50 | < Tarinaky_> | 18:49 -!- Attilla [uid13723@Nightstar-ed0oqj.irccloud.com] has joined #code |
| 18:50 | < Tarinaky_> | 18:49 < Tarinaky_> Copying and pasting from this PDF yields a line of special characters. |
| 18:50 | < Tarinaky_> | 18:49 < Tarinaky_> I suspect foreign charactersets are involved. |
| 18:51 | | Alek [omegaboot@Nightstar-qa936g.il.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 18:51 | | Typherix [Typherix@Nightstar-n91qrf.lnngmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #code |
| 18:59 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 19:05 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky_: there are a few, none of which I have found to be at all useful~ |
| 19:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | That said, I note that not all PDFs have text that match up with what displays on screen. |
| 19:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is especially common in scanned documents where it shows the scanned text but copy-pastes its best guess at the OCR of that text, which is often complete garbage. |
| 19:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Run it through pdftext first, then analyze that. |
| 19:12 | < Tarinaky_> | The document was clearly made using LaTeX. |
| 19:14 | < Tarinaky_> | Anyway, it was a silly idea. |
| 19:18 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 19:29 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:33 | | Reiv [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-95746c1f.kinect.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 19:33 | | mode/#code [+ooo Reiv froztbyte Orthia] by ChanServ |
| 19:33 | | mode/#code [+o Syloq] by ChanServ |
| 19:33 | | mode/#code [+o Alek] by ChanServ |
| 19:33 | <@Azash> | Tarinaky_: Write one |
| 19:34 | <@Azash> | Though a simpler approach would be to simply present it in different charsets and let the user pick the correct one |
| 19:34 | | Orthia is now known as NSGuest46914 |
| 19:34 | | JustBob is now known as NSGuest3345 |
| 19:34 | < Tarinaky_> | I am the user. I don't know what the correct charset is. |
| 19:35 | < Tarinaky_> | I only know the language/made up of latin characters. |
| 19:35 | <@Azash> | I'm referring to the program I suggested you write, I figured you are the user since you're asking about the problem |
| 19:36 | < Tarinaky_> | Oh, I see. |
| 19:36 | < Tarinaky_> | Anywya, it was a dumb idea because this is more work than just copying out the URL by hand. |
| 19:43 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 19:43 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 19:47 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:49 | <@froztbyte> | http://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport/comments/1pk90e/the_surrealism_of_m anaged_services_or_why_are_you/ |
| 19:52 | <@Tamber> | "until the morons aligned" *snrk* |
| 19:57 | | NSGuest3345 [justbob@Nightstar-uoh7vd.or.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] |
| 19:57 | | JustBob [justbob@Nightstar-uoh7vd.or.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 20:00 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 20:00 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 20:05 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 20:19 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 20:19 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 20:40 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code |
| 20:40 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 20:57 | | Stalker [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 21:00 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 21:21 | | ktemkin[afk] is now known as ktemkin |
| 21:27 | | Panzer [Panzer@Nightstar-o7b.u5m.89.109.IP] has joined #code |
| 21:49 | | Panzer [Panzer@Nightstar-o7b.u5m.89.109.IP] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] |
| 22:09 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 22:34 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] |
| 22:34 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code |
| 22:34 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 22:55 | <@Azash> | Remember kids, defensive coding: 23:35 <+MisfortuneCooki> and another channel's bot spontaneously banned and kicked everyone in the channel |
| 22:56 | <@Reiv> | ... because? |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | IT IS MY WILL THAT LOGGED YOU IN HERE. IT WAS I WHO GAVE YOU YOUR OPS, THE ONLY BEAUTY IN THAT MEAT YOU CALL A BODY |
| 23:02 | <@TheWatcher> | Pffft |
| 23:03 | <@TheWatcher> | Reiv: because someone is a prat? >.> |
| 23:04 | <@Reiv> | Brilliant. |
| 23:06 | | * AnnoDomini fondly recalls the time he tutored people by example in Applied Anti-Troll Measures In Dice Bots. |
| 23:07 | | thalasleep is now known as Thalass |
| 23:13 | <@Reiv> | Man, I don't remember what that suite of countermeasures ended up like |
| 23:43 | | * Thalass eyes the /still ongoing/ Senate vote recounts, ponders how one would make electronic voting secure |
| 23:44 | | NSGuest46914 is now known as Orthia |
| 23:45 | <&McMartin> | By making it non-electronic~ |
| 23:45 | <&McMartin> | In all seriousness, "electronic input that produces a paper-based ballot" |
| 23:45 | <@AnnoDomini> | By limiting the franchise down to an amount you can check by hand? |
| 23:45 | | Orthia is now known as NSGuest10089 |
| 23:46 | <&McMartin> | AnnoDomini: Scalable, hand-counted universal suffrage has been a largely solved problem for over a hundred years. You use a cell structure |
| 23:46 | <@AnnoDomini> | OK. In that case what's the problem? |
| 23:47 | <@Azash> | https://images.4chan.org/g/src/1383259491869.png |
| 23:47 | <@Azash> | The meeting of doom |
| 23:47 | | NSGuest10089 [orthianz@Nightstar-avg.1ee.224.119.IP] has quit [[NS] Quit: Going dooooown...] |
| 23:47 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-avg.1ee.224.119.IP] has joined #code |
| 23:47 | | mode/#code [+o Orthia] by ChanServ |
| 23:47 | <&McMartin> | AnnoDomini: Well, it is slow, and remains subject to various forms of corruption |
| 23:47 | <@AnnoDomini> | Azash: [x] Genuflect. |
| 23:48 | | ktemkin is now known as ktemkin[work] |
| 23:48 | <@AnnoDomini> | McMartin: But you said it's a solved problem. That doesn't sound very solved! |
| 23:48 | <&McMartin> | The fundamental theory of voting is that you don't get all the nice properties |
| 23:48 | <&McMartin> | "Conspiracy within a precinct to systematically destroy ballots" isn't easy to defeat under any system, but with paper it's trivial to prove that it has happened. |
| 23:49 | <&McMartin> | "Slow" is occasionally considered a feature, so there's a specification problem~ |
| 23:49 | <@Namegduf> | I think it's considered a feature by people with severe rationalisation problems. |
| 23:50 | <@Namegduf> | If you ignore them, and you should, on everything, it becomes sensible again. |
| 23:50 | <&McMartin> | Well, the price you pay for speed is "you had to trust the vote-counting program" |
| 23:50 | <&McMartin> | That's... not a price people are generally willing to pay |
| 23:50 | <@Namegduf> | That does not make speed a feature and you're enough of a developer to know it. :P |
| 23:51 | <@Namegduf> | Er being slow a feature |
| 23:51 | <@Namegduf> | It makes speed too expensive |
| 23:51 | <&McMartin> | (A midlevel that works is to have the electronic ballot generator make a human-readable variant and an OCRable variant and cross-check the two" |
| 23:51 | <&McMartin> | (The cross-check is slow but you get preliminary results fast) |
| 23:51 | <&McMartin> | (I am not actually convinced "you get preliminary results fast" is a feature) |
| 23:52 | <@Namegduf> | That's a distinct thing. |
| 23:52 | <@AnnoDomini> | Hmm. Are web-based bank account operations considered secure? |
| 23:52 | <@Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 23:52 | <&McMartin> | (Having a uniform electronically generated ballot has some advantages for anonymity, though, AIUI) |
| 23:53 | <&McMartin> | They aren't anonymous, though. |
| 23:53 | <@AnnoDomini> | Is anonymity desirable? |
| 23:54 | <&McMartin> | Very, very yes. |
| 23:54 | <@Namegduf> | They don't map in a variety of ways, the biggest one being that the banks have zero transparency and trust the government. |
| 23:54 | <&McMartin> | Secret ballot is not only desirable, it's nearly mandatory. |
| 23:54 | <@Namegduf> | Which is fine for banking. The government is not going to steal your money. |
| 23:55 | <@Namegduf> | And you can see your balance and that's all you care about, not the sum total of the system. |
| 23:55 | <&McMartin> | Without it you're vulnerable to enforcable vote-selling and direct voter coercion |
| 23:55 | <@Namegduf> | An equivalent system where you could see your vote only would be unsatisfactory. You'd have to trust the service to count the totals correctly because there's no transparency or vetting to the system. |
| 23:55 | <@AnnoDomini> | Namegduf: The government is already taking a lot of your money. But they probably won't stoop to hacking your bank account to get at it, no. :P |
| 23:56 | <@AnnoDomini> | (They'll tell the bank to freeze it instead while they bring you to court or something.) |
| 23:57 | <@AnnoDomini> | Hmm. What about decentralized cryptographic votes? |
| 23:57 | <@AnnoDomini> | Bitvote? :V |
| 23:58 | <&McMartin> | Hm |
| 23:58 | <&McMartin> | How is that different from just publishing all ballots for anyone to count? |
| 23:58 | <@Namegduf> | Not discussed in policy debates, in general, because ideas there are so basic. |
| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | (With a unique ID for each ballot so you can find your own, and the ID is presented to the voter as a destroyable physical artifact to ultimately ensure anonymity) |
| 23:59 | <@Namegduf> | Bitcoin itself is not a direct solution because suddenly the "51% of the processing power can conspire to control the system" issue becomes a breaking, huge practical problem. |
| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | Tracking "Voter X was present" needs to be done outside of the counting system |
| 23:59 | <@Namegduf> | Especially given that that's closer to "51% of the wealth" than "51% of the people" |
| --- Log closed Fri Nov 01 00:00:17 2013 |