| --- Log opened Thu Oct 17 00:00:02 2013 |
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| 03:18 | < JustBob> | I tsk. |
| 03:18 | < JustBob> | I TSK. |
| 03:19 | < JustBob> | I had an engineering professor tell me today that "You don't need to write code to optimize the system; just rough-estimate it by hand." |
| 03:19 | < JustBob> | WHAT'S THE POINT OF BEING AN ENGINEERING MAJOR IF I CAN'T OVERTHINK A SIMPLE ASSIGNMENT?! |
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| 08:57 | <@froztbyte> | JustBob: haha |
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| 09:59 | <~Vornicus> | Bob: tell me you told him that. |
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| 19:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Argh. There's nothing love more than when instructions for a GUI tool reference options or elements that just aren't present. |
| 20:06 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:17 | | * ErikMesoy cautiously tells his editor "Language:SQL" as he prepares to do dark work for his university course. >_> |
| 20:22 | < ErikMesoy> | Oh god the selects. Why did I take this course? :/ |
| 20:27 | < ErikMesoy> | Man, this is like 90% reserved words |
| 20:30 | <@Tarinaky> | On second thoughts. |
| 20:30 | <@Tarinaky> | Entering data from a web page into a CSV is more fun :/ |
| 20:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: write a program to do it for you! |
| 20:34 | <@Tarinaky> | That's require some form of weak AI. |
| 20:34 | <@Tarinaky> | To deal with the missing cells and lack of clarity as to the precise semantics of the resulting CSV. |
| 20:36 | <@Tarinaky> | Not to mention I need to go through each of these by name and look up other data from other pages :/ |
| 20:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Looking up the data sounds like it's automatable as well as long as there's a consistent name->page mapping |
| 20:36 | <@Tarinaky> | And that would require Wikipedia having consistency between all of its articles. |
| 20:36 | < ErikMesoy> | What sort of silly comment indicator is -- anyway? |
| 20:36 | <@Tarinaky> | ErikMesoy: One that is designed to 'mimic' Maths |
| 20:36 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: The data isn't consistent. Nor can I guarentee consistent name->page mapping. |
| 20:37 | < ErikMesoy> | Tarinaky: What? |
| 20:37 | <@Tarinaky> | To label a formula, one might draw a horizontal line followed by a symbol in backets. |
| 20:38 | <@Tarinaky> | '--' is fairly common formatting for a 'long' line. |
| 20:39 | < ErikMesoy> | http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/595 Do I appear to be on the right track? |
| 20:40 | < ErikMesoy> | In case it's not obvious from the code, I'm supposed to set up fairly basic tables for keeping track of university students. |
| 20:40 | < ErikMesoy> | Wondering if I made any obvious blunders in this strange language. |
| 20:41 | < ErikMesoy> | (You may all snicker at the abbreviation of "Student" as "Stud" in Norwegian.) |
| 20:42 | < RichyB> | ErikMesoy, "--" gets used in Haskell too. :) |
| 20:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | And VHDL, and Lua. |
| 20:42 | < RichyB> | ToxicFrog, ooh, that makes me like Lua more. |
| 20:42 | < RichyB> | Not VHDL though, VHDL is make of spiders. |
| 20:45 | < ErikMesoy> | RichyB: The one where a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors? Not helping. ;-) |
| 20:45 | < RichyB> | That's an in-joke, not an explanation |
| 21:07 | < AnnoDomini> | ErikMesoy: Tell them about gonads! |
| 21:13 | < ErikMesoy> | Oh yeah, Urbit. The author of Urbit thought he was going to be funny, and decided that where these highfalutin' PLT languages have monads, Urbit will instead have gonads. |
| 21:15 | | * Alek facepalms. |
| 21:17 | < ErikMesoy> | This is done using ;~ the gonad rune. |
| 21:17 | <@Tarinaky> | It should be possible to define an elipsoid from a period and two points on the circumference right? |
| 21:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Or am I being silly? |
| 21:17 | < ErikMesoy> | ;~ is pronounced "semsig". Urbit has no reserved words. Urbit has only "runes" (pairs of special characters like the gonad). |
| 21:20 | <@Tarinaky> | This is not working. |
| 21:20 | < ErikMesoy> | Tarinaky: No. |
| 21:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Even if they're well chosen points? |
| 21:21 | < ErikMesoy> | Imagine that the two points are nails hammered into a wall, and you want to rest a physical ellipse shape on them. |
| 21:21 | <@Tarinaky> | I see no problem with this. |
| 21:22 | < AnnoDomini> | Tarinaky: Are you trying to one-up Steve WalmsleyL |
| 21:22 | < ErikMesoy> | Can you rotate the ellipse and still rest it on the nails? Yes. |
| 21:22 | < AnnoDomini> | *? |
| 21:22 | < ErikMesoy> | So two points and a period underspecify the ellipse, unless the two points are very well chosen: specifically, the two points furthest apart. |
| 21:23 | <@Tarinaky> | Those're the two points I had. |
| 21:23 | <@Tarinaky> | AnnoDomini: I think so, if it's the steve I'm thinking of. |
| 21:23 | < ErikMesoy> | Ah. This is important to know. |
| 21:23 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm getting bogged down with the data entry for planets though. |
| 21:23 | <@Tarinaky> | There is no good source :/ |
| 21:23 | < AnnoDomini> | Tarinaky: Good luck and God be with ye! |
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| 21:26 | < AnnoDomini> | Tarinaky: What exactly are you having trouble with? |
| 21:26 | <@Tarinaky> | AnnoDomini: Data Entry. |
| 21:26 | < AnnoDomini> | Which means? |
| 21:27 | <@Tarinaky> | There's no pre-existing computer readable file I can mangle into a computer. |
| 21:27 | <@Tamber> | "Mashing the right keys, occasionally in the right order" |
| 21:27 | <@Tarinaky> | And I don't want to type in data from multiple web pages, formatted differently, for something on the order of 1000 elements. |
| 21:27 | < AnnoDomini> | Tarinaky: I would suggest that you skip that, and instead randomly generate systems. |
| 21:28 | <&McMartin> | What are you trying to get planet data from? |
| 21:28 | < AnnoDomini> | You're going to have to do that anyway, and there's no compulsion to actually replicate Sol. |
| 21:28 | < AnnoDomini> | McMartin: Aurora 4x's database. :P |
| 21:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Right now? Wiki-fucking-pedia. |
| 21:29 | <@Tarinaky> | I feel there is a compulsion to actually replicate Sol. |
| 21:29 | < AnnoDomini> | Why? Steve still hasn't brought Sol up to Wikipedia standards. |
| 21:30 | <@Tarinaky> | I'd be happy with a mock Sol. |
| 21:30 | <@Tarinaky> | But that'd require an equal amount of mock data. |
| 21:30 | < AnnoDomini> | Sounds easily done with just a handful of values. |
| 21:31 | < AnnoDomini> | Like 1) orbital distance, 2) planetary mass, 3) planetary atmosphere pressure and composition. |
| 21:32 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't have those values in an easily mungible form. And as we've established, need two orbital distances because I want to one-up Steve. |
| 21:33 | < AnnoDomini> | You're doing elliptical orbits? |
| 21:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. I also want to have better transfers/pathfinding for ships. |
| 21:34 | < AnnoDomini> | Transfers? |
| 21:35 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't know a better word for it. |
| 21:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Ballistics? |
| 21:35 | < AnnoDomini> | You want newtonian motion? |
| 21:35 | < RichyB> | Orbital mechanics. |
| 21:36 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, I don't want to go that far because I don't want an actual O(n^2) problem... but a O(n*m) problem seems fine for m<<n. |
| 21:37 | < RichyB> | O(n^2) for n < 100 or so is going to be trivial. |
| 21:37 | < RichyB> | Your integrator is just going to be doing a few dozen multiplications and additions per orbiting body per frame anyway, right? |
| 21:37 | <@Tarinaky> | Right now, I'm getting stumped on how to get a picture of the solar system without hiring mexicans. |
| 21:38 | < AnnoDomini> | Tarinaky: Hmm. You ought to be able to make an ellipse with $flatness and $orientation. |
| 21:38 | < AnnoDomini> | And, well, r. |
| 21:38 | < AnnoDomini> | You can potentially skip orientation, but that'd be a bit silly. |
| 21:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes, there's lots of ways to represent an ellipse. |
| 21:39 | <@Tarinaky> | But I need mexicans to trawl wikipedia :/ |
| 21:39 | < RichyB> | There's a thing for that. Amazon Mechanical Turk. |
| 21:39 | < AnnoDomini> | Can't you just copy the incorrect data from Auror's DB? |
| 21:39 | < RichyB> | =D |
| 21:39 | < AnnoDomini> | *a |
| 21:40 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't know how to access Stevefire.db |
| 21:40 | <@Tarinaky> | You do. |
| 21:40 | < AnnoDomini> | 1. Install MS Access. |
| 21:41 | < AnnoDomini> | 2. Open stevefire.db. |
| 21:41 | < ErikMesoy> | ha |
| 21:41 | < AnnoDomini> | 3. Enter password, "raistlin31". |
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| 22:26 | <@Reiv> | ErikMesoy: It looks good, given that I don't speak the tongue |
| 22:26 | <@Reiv> | My only query is the LIKE "__ %" - you're looking for 'any two letters, a space, and then whatever you feel like'? |
| 22:27 | < ErikMesoy> | Reiv: See the comment. I want people whose first names are two letters. |
| 22:27 | < ErikMesoy> | I have tried to comment in English for your reading |
| 22:28 | <@Reiv> | Are you happy if your query rejects "AB" for lacking a last name? |
| 22:28 | < ErikMesoy> | ...fuck him, his name is invalid. :P |
| 22:29 | <@Reiv> | (I'm assuming the design spec demands you store names in full as freetext, as opposed to FirstName, LastName or whatever) |
| 22:29 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, that's what I wanted to confirm :) |
| 22:29 | <@Tarinaky> | What about little Bobby Tables? |
| 22:29 | <@Tarinaky> | :p |
| 22:30 | < ErikMesoy> | Design spec is the one at http://heim.ifi.uio.no/inf1300/2013/oblig/dataForOblig4/Student.sql (a long list of "insert into Student values" used to populate table) |
| 22:30 | < ErikMesoy> | The shortest name in that table is one "An Do Cao". |
| 22:31 | < ErikMesoy> | Reiv: Anyway, if some "AB" guy turns up, should I be using LIKE OR LIKE, or reformatting into whatever SQL magic indicates whitespace-or-terminator? |
| 22:31 | <@Reiv> | Third from the bottom has three tables and only one join. |
| 22:31 | < ErikMesoy> | "usernames of all students taking the combination of inf2220 and inf1300" ? |
| 22:32 | <@Reiv> | Whitespace-or-terminator would be better; the actual details of that get messy in a big damn hurry so I wouldn't worry about it for a school project unless you're expected to be engineering shit while you go forward |
| 22:32 | < ErikMesoy> | this has line numbers and English comments, "Third from the bottom" is kinda unnecessary vague |
| 22:32 | <@Reiv> | oh right haha |
| 22:32 | <@Reiv> | -- usernames of all students taking the combination of inf2220 and inf1300 |
| 22:33 | <@Reiv> | SELECT DISTINCT bnavn FROM EmneStud ES1, EmneStud ES2, Student WHERE ES1.emnekode = 'inf1300' AND ES2.emnekode = 'inf2200' AND ES1.bnavn = ES2.bnavn |
| 22:33 | < ErikMesoy> | yeah... not sure I need the Student table |
| 22:33 | <@Reiv> | (Not actually my preferred method of joining tables anyway, but that's syntactic prettyspace, not Actually Wrong, so whatever) |
| 22:33 | <@Reiv> | Either join it in properly or take it out entirely |
| 22:33 | | * ErikMesoy takes out the Student table. |
| 22:33 | < ErikMesoy> | The EmneStude (CourseStudy) tables have the username I want |
| 22:34 | <@Reiv> | -- usernames of all students with the same group number in both... you know what - same issue |
| 22:34 | < ErikMesoy> | right |
| 22:34 | <@Reiv> | Last one looks fine. |
| 22:35 | < ErikMesoy> | Are the constraints on the table creations sane? |
| 22:35 | <@Reiv> | FWIW, my favored method of joins is more explicit |
| 22:35 | < ErikMesoy> | uid (user id) is obvious the primary key for Student |
| 22:35 | <@Reiv> | SELECT * FROM foo INNER JOIN bar on foo.id = bar.id WHERE othershitgoeshere |
| 22:35 | < ErikMesoy> | what's the appropriate primary key for EmneStud? |
| 22:36 | < ErikMesoy> | entries are username, coursecode, groupnumber, semester. |
| 22:36 | <@Reiv> | Course code, if it's sane |
| 22:36 | < ErikMesoy> | No, it's obviously not a single one |
| 22:36 | < ErikMesoy> | two students can be taking the same course. |
| 22:36 | <@Reiv> | Oh, wait, I misread |
| 22:36 | < ErikMesoy> | EmneStud is used to keep track of which students are taking which courses. |
| 22:37 | <@Reiv> | Yeah I was looking at the wrong one (Sorry, I'm running a bit of a doozy of a mental alias list~) |
| 22:37 | < ErikMesoy> | It'll contain (Erik, MAT100), (Erik, INF100), (John, MAT100) etc |
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| 22:37 | <@Reiv> | It's a many:many table |
| 22:37 | < ErikMesoy> | with extra "many" since multiple students can be in a group, a student can belong to multiple groups, a course can be run in multiple semesters... |
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| 22:38 | <@Reiv> | Best key to use is foreign keys as a composite key |
| 22:39 | < ErikMesoy> | primary key(bnavn, emnekode, sem)? |
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| 22:39 | < ErikMesoy> | that denotes the combination of a student, a course, and a semester |
| 22:39 | <@Reiv> | Hn, you may have a glitch in your table setup, but this could be my misreading what you wrote there |
| 22:39 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, pretty much |
| 22:40 | <@Reiv> | It would be better if you had a table that had the course and semester as its own thing |
| 22:40 | <@Reiv> | And then your students-in-which-course could join the student to that class |
| 22:40 | < ErikMesoy> | Maybe, but the comments "-- create relation Student(bnavn, navn, uid, spkode)" are explicit instructions from the exercise |
| 22:40 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, this is a design preference, so you're not wrong |
| 22:40 | < ErikMesoy> | Over at http://heim.ifi.uio.no/inf1300/2013/oblig/dataForOblig4/ you can see sample data to be used here |
| 22:40 | <@Reiv> | At which point you can just throw in all three as a composite key and be done with it, I think. |
| 22:42 | < ErikMesoy> | So. What's better than navn LIKE '__ %' for getting two-letter first names? |
| 22:42 | < ErikMesoy> | OR navn LIKE '__' seems the quick and easy way |
| 22:43 | <@Reiv> | That is the quick and easy way, yes |
| 22:43 | <@Reiv> | I'd go with that given I don't actually know which dialect you're in, and or-terminator hijinks get complex in a hurry. |
| 22:43 | <@Reiv> | It's clear enough and won't get you in trouble. |
| 22:43 | < ErikMesoy> | PostGreSQL. |
| 22:45 | < ErikMesoy> | Is this correct? WHERE condition_x AND (condition_y OR condition_z) |
| 22:45 | < ErikMesoy> | Mixing and/or clauses is always a pain in pretty much every language I encounter |
| 22:46 | <@Reiv> | That is correct. |
| 22:47 | <@Reiv> | And/or is always ugly and wrong. Not much to be done for it. |
| 22:47 | <@Reiv> | I just make sure I keep my whitespace clear and the brackets well situated so people notice what's going on and hope for the best. :p |
| 22:49 | < ErikMesoy> | All right. Sending this to examiner, will have some idea of how it goes within a week. |
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| 22:53 | <@Reiv> | Good luck. Hope I helped :) |
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| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | "Instead of a fixed split (one app 320 pixels wide, the other taking the remainder of the screen), Windows 8.1 has a variable split and allows more than two apps on-screen if there's room. Apps can be shrunk to a minimum of 500 pixels, with optional support for shrinking down to 320." |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | Hey, maybe by 8.3 they'll have a proper tiling WM >_> |
| 23:22 | < RichyB> | They had a tiling WM in Windows 1.0, I think? |
| 23:22 | < RichyB> | Mostly because they didn't have overdraw but let's quietly gloss over that detail. |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | DOSSHELL.EXE, too :) |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | Which also didn't have a *bitmapped display* |
| 23:23 | <@Alek> | XD |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | Man. I used DOSSHELL.EXE a great deal back in the day. |
| 23:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | What was it? |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | Basically a "curses"-based file explorer with the ability to split out a command shell |
| 23:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah |
| 23:26 | <@Reiv> | Oh man DOSSHELL.EXE |
| 23:26 | <@Reiv> | My first programming! |
| 23:27 | <@Reiv> | (Not really programming) |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | QBASIC.EXE and Borland's early compilers had very similar UIs. |
| 23:27 | <@Reiv> | (But it was the first time I got past the "I type the magic incarnation and my game runs for me" phase.) |
| 23:27 | < RichyB> | Oh, now I remember that. |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DOS_Shell_Screen.png |
| 23:28 | <&McMartin> | Oh right, it also actually had task switching |
| 23:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | QBASIC I am familiar with. |
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| 23:53 | <@Alek> | I worked with BASIC before QBASIC. ;_; |
| 23:53 | <@Alek> | but yeah, DOSSHELL was the bomb. :D |
| --- Log closed Fri Oct 18 00:00:17 2013 |