| --- Log opened Sat Jul 20 00:00:47 2013 |
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| 00:23 | < [R]> | So apparently calling db.connect() without a callback will cause athentication to fail. |
| 00:24 | < [R]> | I don't even want to guess how the hell they fucked that up. |
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| 00:31 | | * McMartin attempts to read about Scala |
| 00:32 | <&McMartin> | I can't tell if this documentation is not great or if Scala is just gratuitously wildly ad-hoc or if the grammatical simplicity of Clojure has spoiled the shit out of me or what |
| 00:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | All three. |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | Heh. |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | I honestly can't remember if C was this bad for me, back in '90, or if Java was, back in '96 |
| 00:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | C has a more complicated grammar and standard library than either, tbf. |
| 00:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Er |
| 00:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Scala does, rather |
| 00:54 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | C's grammar was infamous at the time for being resistant to the mechanical parsing techniques of the age |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | We've gotten better since, and someone ultimately did make a LALR(1) grammar for it |
| 00:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | I found the stdlib docs to be pretty excellent in both content and presentation, especially compared to javadocs, but it is very obviously a reference manual meant to refresh your memory and not a learning resource. |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | But it took years to do so, and had not, for instance, been successfully done at the time C++ was first created. |
| 00:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | I forget how I learned the language proper, other than lots of fiddling around. |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | Each time I try to fiddle with Scala a voice in my head prods me and asks why I'm not using Clojure |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | (or, for that matter, Python or C~) |
| 00:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've reached the awkward point where when I'm using scala I want clojure's cleanliness and when I'm using clojure I want scala's static typing~ |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | Harsh~ |
| 00:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | (it is not an exaggeration to say that scala is the only statically typed language I have truly enjoyed using) |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | From what I've seen, Scala's Case Types make me pretty happy |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | They mesh well with my preferred form of data-driven programming, which is to say, ML's and Haskell's. |
| 00:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah |
| 00:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | My impression when first learning scala was "holy shit, it's everything I liked about Haskell without any of the stuff that drove me insane" |
| 01:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Basically, haskell was the language that convinced me that I didn't hate static typing as a concept, just most statically typed languages, and scala is the language that convinced me that you could do practical things in a statically typed language, not just beautiful things. |
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| 09:31 | | ErikMesoy [Erik@Nightstar-16aba739.80-203-17.nextgentel.com] has joined #code |
| 09:31 | < ErikMesoy> | Minor WTF: According to this university handout, it's an "advantage" of C that you can write very compact code like A[++n]*=3.1 |
| 09:32 | < ErikMesoy> | According to my impressions from the intertubes, this is mostly a way to shoot yourself in the foot, and the extra length of saying n:=n+1; A[n]:=A[n]*3.1; in Simula is more than made up for by the clarity. |
| 09:34 | <@froztbyte> | You're learning |
| 09:34 | <@froztbyte> | Excellent. |
| 09:35 | <@froztbyte> | stuff like that has some advantages in niche situations |
| 09:36 | < ErikMesoy> | I think it's also a minor WTF that the university is comparing C to Simula, especially when I've already taken a Python course there previously. :p |
| 09:36 | <@froztbyte> | but, in general, it's just a way to get yourself some mistakes |
| 09:36 | <@froztbyte> | ErikMesoy: is it the case there as well that profs make up course content? |
| 09:37 | < ErikMesoy> | I don't know. |
| 09:37 | < ErikMesoy> | Maybe it's nationalism - Simula is a Norwegian derivate of ALGOL from the 1960s. |
| 09:39 | <&McMartin> | Simula is the other primary ancestor of C++, alongside C. |
| 09:41 | <&McMartin> | (By the time standardization had finished, the primary additional ancestors added ML, Clu, and Ada.) |
| 09:41 | <@froztbyte> | heh |
| 09:42 | | * McMartin was rereading "The Design and Evolution of C++" last week |
| 09:42 | <&McMartin> | It's extra hilarious now because the book was written in 1995 or so. |
| 09:42 | <&McMartin> | Three years before standardization completed. |
| 09:42 | <&McMartin> | So the STL is shoehorned in as a footnote in one chapter, mentioned once, and then never again |
| 09:44 | <&McMartin> | In a super broad sense you can also basically claim that Object-Oriented Programming can be divided into three parts: Simula and languages like it; Smalltalk and languages like it; and CLOS, over there, ranting about how you are all fools unable to recognize its genius and how it will destroy you all. |
| 09:44 | <&McMartin> | (It's right; most of the 'post-OOP' stuff I've seen is stuff CLOS has supported natively for decades~) |
| 09:45 | < ErikMesoy> | I seem to recall Lisp rants similarly. |
| 09:45 | <&McMartin> | (Well, it's not right about the destroying us all, as Common LISP as a whole is about as friendly a language as Visual Basic) |
| 09:45 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: wait, standardization of C++ only finished in 1998? |
| 09:46 | <&McMartin> | The relevant standard is "C++98", to be replaced by what was "C++0x" and then became "C++1x" and I guess is now independently C++11 and C++14? |
| 09:46 | <&McMartin> | But yes. |
| 09:46 | <@froztbyte> | also, that comparison you make to VB breaks down |
| 09:46 | <@froztbyte> | there is a lot of VB software in the world |
| 09:46 | <@froztbyte> | tons of shareware out to get us |
| 09:46 | <@froztbyte> | winning by numbers |
| 09:46 | <&McMartin> | Heh. |
| 09:46 | <&McMartin> | VB6 was about 10 years ahead of its time |
| 09:46 | <&McMartin> | Where it stayed, unchanging, for about 25~ |
| 09:47 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: I didn't know that the actual standard was /that/ late overall, I thought C++98 was just a couple of extra things I'd never bothered to read more about |
| 09:47 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 09:47 | <&McMartin> | On top of that, *actually complaint implementations* didn't start becoming widely available until the mid-200Xs. |
| 09:47 | <&McMartin> | *compliant, rather |
| 09:47 | <&McMartin> | Because templates meant everyone had to rewrite their binutils, more or less. |
| 09:48 | <&McMartin> | A thing that Early C++ strove mightily to avoid. |
| 09:48 | <&McMartin> | But function overloading in the presence of linkers that only treated the first six characters as meaningful (which was apparently A Thing back in the 80s when C++ was in its birthing fluid) meant that had to go out the window pretty fast |
| 09:48 | <&McMartin> | Early C++ actually ended up influencing the standardization of C. |
| 09:48 | <~Vornicus> | I've never been able to figure out what exactly the difference between simula-like and smalltalk-like languages is. |
| 09:49 | <&McMartin> | Smalltalk is duck typed, Simula is class-based and statically typed. |
| 09:49 | <&McMartin> | And CLOS has before/after/instead advice like the aspect-oriented guys and also has multiple dispatch, which means that "classes" and "message passing" are both special cases. |
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| 09:50 | | * ErikMesoy is trying to decide on what informatics course to take this fall at university. |
| 09:50 | <&McMartin> | (And you can organize those to get ML-style typeswitch or virtual function-like behavior basically via declaration re-ordering) |
| 09:50 | <@froztbyte> | <McMartin> But function overloading in the presence of linkers that only treated the first six characters as meaningful (which was apparently A Thing back in the 80s when C++ was in its birthing fluid) meant that had to go out the window pretty fast |
| 09:50 | <@froztbyte> | rofl |
| 09:50 | | * ErikMesoy has taken 11.3 courses of the 18 needed for his degree, now glares balefully at the remnants of the informatics program. |
| 09:50 | <@froztbyte> | that must have been quite the majestic fuckup |
| 09:51 | <&McMartin> | The 80s were a dark time |
| 09:51 | <&McMartin> | Even on minicomputers |
| 09:51 | <&McMartin> | My Commodore 64 had better filesystem support than some of those minicomputer systems >_< |
| 09:51 | <@froztbyte> | I'd say /especially/ on minicomputers just from some basic historical knowledge |
| 09:52 | <&McMartin> | Well, I'm comparing it to the 8-bit micros |
| 09:52 | <~Vornicus> | before/after/instead advice like the stuff in I7? |
| 09:52 | <&McMartin> | Which are these days considered obsolete even for wristwatches and car dashboards. |
| 09:52 | <&McMartin> | Vornicus: Kind of, but more like the stuff in AspectJ. |
| 09:52 | < ErikMesoy> | First level suggestions that students are expected to start an informatics degree with are: 1) INF1000 Basic Programming, ok. 2) MAT1001 a mathematical basis for everything, sure. 3) INF1300 Introduction to Databases. Behold, we visit the horrors of SQL upon freshmen. |
| 09:53 | <~Vornicus> | Also it appears that part of the difficulty here is that the first thing I think of when I think of C++ object orientation is "virtual" and wondering why the hell it isn't default. |
| 09:53 | < Azash> | I object to "horrors of SQL" |
| 09:53 | <&McMartin> | In C++, nothing that isn't free is default. |
| 09:53 | <&McMartin> | Virtual functions aren't free in time or space. |
| 09:54 | < Azash> | We do intro to DBs in the first year and it's no problem |
| 09:54 | < ErikMesoy> | Azash: Does it help if I state that the course expects you to use SQL from inside Java? :p |
| 09:54 | <&McMartin> | Or, for that matter, compatibility; a class or struct that has no virtual methods can be treated as a C struct. |
| 09:54 | < Azash> | That's more about the horrors of Java DBCs |
| 09:54 | < Azash> | :b |
| 09:54 | <&McMartin> | And C compatibility started out super important and gradually became less so as time went on. |
| 09:55 | <&McMartin> | C ABIs were not remotely as well-standardized then, either, to the point that cross-language shared-object linking couldn't be guaranteed even with multiple C compilers. |
| 09:55 | < Azash> | fwiw our course uses an online SQL sandbox where you enter the queries directly (with homework consisting of increasingly complex queries to the general example database) |
| 09:55 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, learning SQL early is fine |
| 09:55 | <&McMartin> | I didn't learn inner vs. outer join until I was 35 years old, and that honestly is Too Late To Be Picking That Shit Up |
| 09:55 | < Azash> | McMartin: Agreed, it's important to foster perverse thinking early on |
| 09:55 | < Azash> | :P |
| 09:55 | <&McMartin> | Well, kinda |
| 09:55 | <&McMartin> | Now that you mention it |
| 09:56 | <&McMartin> | DB usage is one of the few places left where obsessing over efficiency is actually a defensible position~ |
| 09:56 | < ErikMesoy> | Hmm. Maybe I should take the SQL course, then. |
| 09:56 | < Azash> | ErikMesoy: http://class2go.stanford.edu/db/Winter2013 |
| 09:57 | <&McMartin> | SQL is A Good Thing To Know, if only because Sqlite3 is good enough to throw at small personal apps for things like object persistence. |
| 09:57 | < Azash> | If you want a very good intro by a very recognized lecturer, here you go |
| 09:57 | <&McMartin> | (SpaceChem actually uses SQLite3 as its savegame format~) |
| 09:57 | <~Vornicus> | sqlite is Kind Of The Bomb |
| 09:58 | < Azash> | Vornicus: Agreed |
| 09:58 | <&McMartin> | ...yeah, that would qualify as a very recognized lecturer |
| 09:58 | < ErikMesoy> | Azash: Here's mine. http://www.uio.no/studier/emner/matnat/ifi/INF1300/index-eng.html |
| 09:59 | < Azash> | McMartin: Other than being the CS chair, isn't she like in the top 10 for book citations in the field or something? |
| 09:59 | < Azash> | Field being CS |
| 09:59 | <&McMartin> | She's definitely up there |
| 09:59 | <&McMartin> | I'm not super-familiar with DBs though, as noted >_> |
| 09:59 | < Azash> | I actually use that DB class as my go-to reference |
| 09:59 | <~Vornicus> | McM: and intellectually I know that bit about "nothing that isn't free is default", but still, well, yeah. Virtual makes it act somewhat more smalltalkishly and that is where it fell over |
| 09:59 | < Azash> | It's a very clear and informative course |
| 10:00 | | * McMartin was a compilers/languages/program analysis guy when he was at Stanford, and as such has much more to say about those folks |
| 10:00 | <&McMartin> | Which IIRC includes her husband |
| 10:00 | < Azash> | ErikMesoy: Is that your DB course? |
| 10:00 | < ErikMesoy> | Potentially. I'm picking courses for autumn now. |
| 10:01 | < Azash> | Mm |
| 10:01 | | * Azash should do the same |
| 10:01 | | * McMartin checks. "Yep." |
| 10:01 | <&McMartin> | Vorn: IIRC, Smalltalk's closest C-like relative is Objective-C |
| 10:01 | <&McMartin> | But IIARC, Python's closer to it than either |
| 10:02 | <&McMartin> | Azash: If you are a Stanford student, 242 (I think?) is the one that is "absurdly broad survey of all the various sorts of languages" |
| 10:03 | < Azash> | ErikMesoy: Anyway, my suggestion is that you do a casual run through that online course, it's quite likely that you will repeat the same things in your DB course, at least partially |
| 10:03 | <&McMartin> | 243 is the one I TAed lo these many years ago |
| 10:03 | < Azash> | McMartin: Oh I would like to be but no :P |
| 10:03 | < Azash> | I come from Linuslandia |
| 10:03 | < Azash> | Where the department has its own distro |
| 10:03 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 10:03 | < Azash> | Seriously though, I wouldn't mind the survey |
| 10:04 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 10:05 | < Azash> | After the two programming intro courses, we just have applied programming (eg. "string methods", "data structures") and spearhead languages (eg. "software engineering in Scala", "distributed functional programming (in a language you have never heard of nor will again)") |
| 10:05 | <&McMartin> | Sounds like Erlang to me~ |
| 10:06 | < Azash> | Erlang is too useful to teach |
| 10:06 | <&McMartin> | Snerk |
| 10:06 | < Azash> | Nah but it was some lecturer from a Hungarian university that had spent two years writing her own clustre middleware or something |
| 10:06 | < Azash> | And the course was on that |
| 10:14 | < Azash> | McMartin: Do you have any idea on what kind of BSc grade is needed for international master's applicants there? |
| 10:16 | <~Vornicus> | (I hated obj-c, mostly because it all felt very, um, tacked on) |
| 10:18 | < ErikMesoy> | "Draw this doodad in ORM" - I presume this means Object-Relational Mapping? (Looking through the course archives and reading the exercises. Some context missing.) |
| 10:19 | < ErikMesoy> | It seems the most reasonable thing for drawing a set of access rights on an SQL-related course |
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| 12:25 | | * Azash chokes on his lunch: 13:17 <+MK> >Great repository names are short and memorable. Need inspiration? How about yolo-adventure. |
| 12:26 | <~Vornicus> | kill |
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| 16:27 | | * TheWatcher hairpulls at the dark engine |
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| 16:58 | <@TheWatcher> | Ffffffffff, something is corrupting these variabled, argh |
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| 18:55 | | * ToxicFrog releases vstruct 1.1.4 |
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| 22:48 | | * TheWatcher golfclaps at the dark engine |
| 22:48 | <@TheWatcher> | So, I put a script on an AI |
| 22:49 | <@TheWatcher> | Enter game mode and it creates a script object attached to the AI, sends it a BeginScript message, as normal |
| 22:50 | <@TheWatcher> | It should then send Sim to the same script object |
| 22:50 | <@TheWatcher> | In fact, it creates a new one, sends it sim, and uses that new object for the rest of the game, completely ignoring the first one it created. |
| 22:52 | < [R]> | gg |
| 22:53 | < ErikMesoy> | If it's stupid but it works, in this case, I think it's still stupid. |
| 22:56 | <@TheWatcher> | And it looks like it's unique to AIs. If I put the same script on any other concrete object, it uses the same script object for the whole lifetime. |
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| 23:11 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
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| 23:54 | | Vorntastic [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| --- Log closed Sun Jul 21 00:00:03 2013 |