| --- Log opened Fri Jun 21 00:00:58 2013 |
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| 03:24 | <&McMartin> | Ha ha ha |
| 03:24 | | * McMartin looks up red-black trees on wiki. |
| 03:24 | <&McMartin> | "The color "red" was chosen for the name because it was the best-looking color produced by the color laser printer available to the authors while working at Xerox PARC.[4]" |
| 03:25 | < JBeshir> | XD |
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| 03:32 | < ktemkin> | I am currently coding to the worst coding standards I've ever been forced to work with. |
| 03:32 | <&McMartin> | A pity |
| 03:32 | < ktemkin> | Variable names are all lowercase, underscores not allowed, prioritzed for brevity over readability. |
| 03:33 | <&McMartin> | Time for FUN WITH SPACING |
| 03:34 | <&McMartin> | In which "Push It" becomes "P.U, Shit" |
| 03:36 | < ktemkin> | Not to mention that their unit tests all look like this: https://github.com/moodle/moodle/blob/master/question/type/essay/tests/question_ test.php |
| 03:37 | <&McMartin> | Oh dear. You're hacking Moodle? |
| 03:37 | <&McMartin> | You may have some commiserators here~ |
| 03:38 | < ktemkin> | I am unfortunately a "contributing developer" for Moodle; a position which I have recieved because I keep running into core bugs and having to fix them myself. |
| 03:38 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 03:39 | < ktemkin> | The whole thing is very shoddily written. |
| 03:39 | < JBeshir> | Ouch. |
| 03:39 | < JBeshir> | I see vulnerabilities for it reported fairly often. |
| 03:40 | < ktemkin> | (I teach at a large university; and it was either that or Blackboard. Incidentally, we have 15k students and _one oracle database_ for blackboard.) |
| 03:40 | < JBeshir> | I've heard terrible things about Blackboard. |
| 03:41 | | Turaiel[MARC] is now known as Turaiel |
| 03:41 | <&McMartin> | ktemkin: Yeah, I think our other moodler is another University sort |
| 03:41 | <&McMartin> | I've definitely heard rantings >_> |
| 03:41 | < ktemkin> | The worst part is having to spend so much time working with PHP. |
| 03:41 | < ktemkin> | I really dislike PHP. |
| 03:42 | <&McMartin> | High five sir |
| 03:43 | <&McMartin> | or ma'am, whichever |
| 03:44 | | * ktemkin high fives (and is male). |
| 03:45 | <&McMartin> | I don't actually recognize your nick, so, if you're new here and not just using a handle I don't recognize, welcome to #code |
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| 03:46 | < ktemkin> | Thanks; I am indeed new. |
| 03:51 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[MARC] |
| 03:53 | < ktemkin> | Honestly, it would be nice if the core devs would just /document/ anything. If you're not going to allow readable variable names, at least take the time to tell me what your methods are doing. |
| 03:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | ktemkin: having worked with both, for all of Moodle's issues, it is orders of magnitude better than Blackboard. |
| 03:55 | < ktemkin> | I haven't spent a lot of time with Bb's backend; but at least I can /change/ the things that irritate me when using Moodle. |
| 03:56 | < ktemkin> | That and the fact that Blackboard's core workflow requires an absurd amount of clicks to do anything. |
| 03:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | BB's backend is, by all accounts, a massive clusterfuck made by a team that routinely ignores bug reports, and the frontend will have your students burning shit down. |
| 03:57 | < ktemkin> | I have had to teach using it before. It really says something that most of our CS/Engineering professors prefer manually editing HTML to using it to distribute coursework. |
| 03:58 | < ktemkin> | When we got a grant to create a few online-only courses, I decided that it was time to find anything but Blackboard. |
| 04:03 | | Turaiel[MARC] is now known as Turaiel |
| 04:04 | < ktemkin> | Since then, I'm sure some better LMSs have become open-source. I've been curious as to how Canvas is-- it's very much appealing that it's Ruby/CoffeeScript based. |
| 04:05 | < ktemkin> | But now I have two years of existing effort already put into writing custom Moodle plugins. |
| 04:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | It might be worth seeing if these newer, better LMSs can mimic the features of the plugins out of the box~ |
| 04:11 | < ktemkin> | It's very, very unlikely. A lot of these are custom question types that are tied to the courses I teach; for example, I have a set of JS-based gate-wiring question types for a digital logic class. |
| 04:12 | < ktemkin> | I also have things like a QR-based "check off" question type which allows an instructor to mark a lab demo as acceptable by pointing his/her phone at a QR code on the student's screen. I think it's unlikely that any other LMS has implemented a feature like that. |
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| 04:20 | <&McMartin> | That's kind of neat |
| 04:22 | < Syka> | ktemkin: lo |
| 04:22 | < Syka> | lol moodle |
| 04:22 | < Syka> | as a west australian, i am sorry for moodle |
| 04:24 | < ktemkin> | It's Moodle's fault I spell behaviour with a 'u', now. |
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| 04:50 | < Syka> | ktemkin: you mean the correct way? :P |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jun 21 05:10:41 2013 |
| --- Log opened Fri Jun 21 05:17:56 2013 |
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| 06:58 | < ktemkin> | Of course. I spend an hour trying to figure out why this unit test is failing, and it turns out there's a part of the testing integration codebase that's /silently not yet implemented/. |
| 06:59 | < ktemkin> | Which would have taken less than an hour to find if it wasn't buried under a whole /twelve levels of indirection/ across five 1500+ SLOC files. |
| 07:00 | < ktemkin> | The "workaround" that the core devs have been using to avoid that not-implemented spot? They just /don't unit test the parts that need that/. |
| 07:00 | | * ktemkin froths. |
| 07:01 | < AverageJoe> | damn bro |
| 07:01 | < AverageJoe> | that sucks |
| 07:02 | < McMartin> | aiya |
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| 10:42 | | * TheWatcher readsup |
| 10:43 | <@TheWatcher> | ktemkin: as someone who has to run, maintain, and occasionally hack on Moodle; my sincere sympathies. |
| 10:44 | <@TheWatcher> | With only a very few exceptions, it really is a godawful shitpile of hideous code. And yet it's still better than the competition in most cases. |
| 10:45 | < ktemkin> | That's the worst part, I think: there's not an easily available alternative. |
| 10:45 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, we tried a lot of different options, moodle was the only one that consistently did close enough to what we needed. |
| 10:46 | < ktemkin> | It seems like they're really trying to get better, but unfortunately their improvement process involves adding a lot of bureaucracy and focusing on generality of the code. |
| 10:47 | <@TheWatcher> | (that said, part of a project started last year, I've actually been writing a new system from scratch. No idea if it'll ever see the light of day, though) |
| 10:47 | < ktemkin> | I tried that, once. I go mired on generality and a good security model that it almost seemed worth it to let other people scramble around if there's a security issue. |
| 10:48 | < ktemkin> | *so mired |
| 10:50 | < ktemkin> | Though Moodle seems to generate a ton of security issues on its own. |
| 10:51 | < ktemkin> | I guess that shouldn't be a surprise, really: Moodle has a ton of "moving pieces". |
| 10:51 | <@TheWatcher> | And crap coding standards |
| 10:51 | <@TheWatcher> | (And PHP, but hey) |
| 10:51 | <@TheWatcher> | (could be worse. Could be Java) |
| 10:51 | < ktemkin> | If you submit a quiz question, it's actually processed by Question Usage by Activity which in turn calls a Question Attempt, which in turn calls a Question Behavior which in turn calls a Question Type which grades the response. |
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| 10:53 | <@TheWatcher> | (I hacked on Bodington for a good while back in the day, dear Gods that was horrible) |
| 10:54 | < ktemkin> | They've tried to use the Principle of Least Knowledge to make it so none of those pieces know anything about each other; but they've also not documented any of the APIs; so it's hard to get things to work via their recommended workflows, and impossible to do certain things without modifying the core code. |
| 10:54 | | * TheWatcher eyes his patches |
| 10:54 | <@TheWatcher> | No kidding >.< |
| 10:56 | < ktemkin> | It's this really weird juxtaposition of a dynamic language with Java-like abstract classes and interfaces. |
| 10:57 | < ktemkin> | It's like half the time they want to be really structured and abstract, and then they'll go and force you to do certain things by querying the database. |
| 11:00 | <@TheWatcher> | I think a lot is down to having so many cooks in the kitchen, and historically very poor central control |
| 11:01 | <@TheWatcher> | Lots of contributors work, provided that you have an effective BDFL or central group that Knows What They're Doing |
| 11:04 | <@TheWatcher> | And Dougiamas has never struck me as being particularly effective... although at least he isn't a self-taught Java programmer with a biology background *eyes John Maber* |
| 11:04 | < RichyB> | I think that it works well if you have a really good vision document and some guidelines about what future code should look and feel like, too. |
| 11:04 | <@TheWatcher> | And someone to enforce them |
| 11:07 | < ktemkin> | I think a huge part of the problem is that PHP doesn't really have an associated coding style or culture. |
| 11:07 | < ktemkin> | PHP tries to be all over the place, and really just manages to be a mess. |
| 11:08 | < ktemkin> | If you want to write a PHP application and have it not mirror the language (i.e. be terrible), you have to force your team to adopt a set of paradigms. |
| 11:09 | < ktemkin> | Compare that to most projects written in languages like Ruby or Python-- where the languages themselves are associated with a coding style and culture. |
| 11:09 | < RichyB> | Ruby has an associated coding style? |
| 11:10 | < ktemkin> | RichyB: Very duck typed, preference for functional solutions, lots of small functions, Don't Repeat Yourself |
| 11:10 | <@TheWatcher> | Eeeh, well |
| 11:10 | <@TheWatcher> | Nothing to stop you writing and enforcing your own style guide |
| 11:10 | < RichyB> | Good culture, then. |
| 11:11 | < ktemkin> | Which Moodle did, and god is it awful: http://docs.moodle.org/dev/Coding_style |
| 11:11 | < ktemkin> | I see no reason to have variable names like "numresponses" |
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| 11:16 | < ktemkin> | One of the things I took away from the time I spent working with a lot of Ruby/Python was a tendency to use variable names as documentation; which they pretty much prohibit. |
| 11:17 | < ktemkin> | I'd much prefer "responses_to_delete" or "to_delete" to a name like "todel". |
| 11:18 | < ktemkin> | Because they prioritize brevity and don't allow word separation, you actually do get things like "todel"-- which takes me a few seconds to parse correctly. |
| 11:21 | < RichyB> | I like PEP8. |
| 11:21 | < RichyB> | It encourages underscore_separated_lowercase_variable_identifiers. |
| 11:22 | <~Vornicus> | (and approximately that verbose, when you need it...) |
| 11:22 | < ktemkin> | Better a verbose variable name that makes it so you don't need comments. |
| 11:23 | < ktemkin> | Code does tend to be written once and read/debugged many times. |
| 11:23 | < RichyB> | I prefer narrative comments to variable names longer than three words. |
| 11:25 | < RichyB> | (You have a 4+ word identifier -> you're trying to write entire sentences in your variable names -> please don't.) |
| 11:29 | < ktemkin> | Grepping through my old code, the longest identifier I seem to have written is exactly four words: "pad_to_chain_length", a keyword-argument for a JTAG library. |
| 11:31 | < RichyB> | Okay, I'll make that cutoff five words. :) |
| 11:32 | < ktemkin> | Probably the most sane part of PEP8 is "don't blindly follow convention". |
| 11:32 | < ktemkin> | When convention seems to make things worse, rather than better, it may be a good idea to ignore it. |
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| 20:36 | <&Derakon> | http://james-iry.blogspot.de/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jun 22 00:00:13 2013 |