| --- Log opened Tue Feb 19 00:00:19 2013 |
| 00:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway... All 4X games need multiple ways to win right? |
| 00:08 | < Vornicus> | MoO had diplomacy and conquest victories only. |
| 00:08 | < Vornicus> | the conquest victory triggered when you hit 2/3 of planets controlled. |
| 00:08 | <@Tarinaky> | That's a Domination victory. |
| 00:08 | < Vornicus> | well, okay. |
| 00:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Conquest (eliminate everything), Domination (control 2/3 territory), Diplomacy (ally with everything)... What do I use to fill the Tech victory slot? |
| 00:11 | | Attilla [chatzilla@Nightstar-aced750e.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:20 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:20 | | * ShellNinja is installing Win95 on a virtual box. Feels strange. |
| 00:20 | < ShellNinja> | From floppy images. |
| 00:21 | < ShellNinja> | Oh, God, the nostalgia. |
| 00:22 | <@Reiv> | Tarinaky: Nanovirus. |
| 00:23 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:23 | <@Reiv> | Ships equipped with it automatically win all planetary conquests with perfect capture, and dismantle all ships into cash. |
| 00:23 | | * Reiv nods sagely. |
| 00:26 | <@Alek> | Ascension? |
| 00:28 | <@celticminstrel> | Um, that sounds the same as conquest though... |
| 00:28 | < Shiz> | conquest in paradise |
| 00:28 | < Shiz> | :> |
| 00:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: depends on the fluff. Traditional approaches include uploading yourselves into a galactic computer network, becoming beings of pure thought or energy, escaping to another universe you like more, escaping into the distant past or future... |
| 00:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Only the first of those /could/ work... and I don't think it does terribly well >.> |
| 00:33 | < Vornicus> | GalCiv has the "top out the research portion of the tech tree" victory which I always found silly. |
| 00:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | Mechanically, that's how a tech victory usually works |
| 00:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Usually you get so many rounds to stop them. |
| 00:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | The resources you spend researching those final technologies (instead of something that gives you actual mechanical benefit) represent the resources spent implementing whatever technology it is that gives you the win. |
| 00:36 | < Vornicus> | TF: well no, I mean it's more specialized than others. |
| 00:36 | < Vornicus> | Oh, this was GalCiv 2. |
| 00:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | More specialized how |
| 00:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 00:37 | <@Tarinaky> | I go to sleep now. |
| 00:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Good night. |
| 00:39 | < Vornicus> | So, SMAC, in order to research Threshold of Transcendence, there are few -- if any -- techs you don't have to research to get there first. |
| 00:39 | <@Tarinaky> | ssh://git@github.com/Tarinaky/Corporate-Sky.git: error occurred during unpacking on the remote end: index-pack abnormal exit |
| 00:39 | <@Tarinaky> | :/ |
| 00:40 | < Vornicus> | Similarly in Civ games; the spaceship victory always comes at the apex of a large-scale research campaign that eventually gets you basically everything in the game. |
| 00:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah |
| 00:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Halp. |
| 00:42 | < Vornicus> | In Galciv 2, this isn't true; the tech victory tech -- never mind that you just have to do the research, there's no building of a spaceship or Utopia project -- requires only techs from the "these techs get you more research" segment of the tech tree. |
| 00:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: I thought you were sleeping? |
| 00:42 | <@Tarinaky> | I /was/ going to. |
| 00:42 | <@Tarinaky> | But I can't get my commit to push :/ |
| 00:43 | <@Tarinaky> | As such my attempt at sleeping has blocked. |
| 00:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | What's the rest of the error message? |
| 00:44 | <@Tarinaky> | http://pastebin.com/Sa4y52Qi |
| 00:44 | | kris_b_bills [kris_b_bill@Nightstar-317c1093.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 00:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | You might want to 'git fsck' on both the remote and local repos |
| 00:44 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't have ssh access to the remote repo. |
| 00:45 | <@Tarinaky> | It's a github. |
| 00:45 | < kris_b_bills> | IS anyone here great in scripts??? I have a script that is already started and need expert help to finish |
| 00:45 | <@celticminstrel> | That probably depends on the language... |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | "Scripts" is a very, very large space. You're going to have to narrow that down, at least to language and target platform. |
| 00:46 | < kris_b_bills> | C |
| 00:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | kris_b_bills: "scripts" is pretty vague. |
| 00:46 | <@celticminstrel> | ... |
| 00:46 | <@celticminstrel> | C doesn't do scripts. |
| 00:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...C is not a scripting language by any commonly used definition of the term. |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | C is not a scripting language. Do you mean csh/tcsh? |
| 00:47 | <@Tarinaky> | git fsck on the local machine gives no errors. |
| 00:47 | < Shiz> | hey who here was the renpy guy again |
| 00:47 | < Shiz> | I just got a nice crash I like to share with them |
| 00:47 | < ShellNinja> | So much yak shaving to play MoO2. |
| 00:47 | < kris_b_bills> | I'm not techincal on language but I have a script from a C compile |
| 00:49 | <&McMartin> | Um, maybe this will be easier if you pastebin the thing you want explained? |
| 00:53 | < kris_b_bills> | how exactly do you do that? |
| 00:53 | < kris_b_bills> | this ain't like MIRC |
| 00:53 | <@Tarinaky> | rm: cannot remove `Corporate-Sky/.git/objects/pack/pack-42436d006470f106a41bdac48b35488c1ae882f1.p ack': Device or resource busy |
| 00:53 | <@Tarinaky> | rm: cannot remove `Corporate-Sky/.git/objects/pack/pack-42436d006470f106a41bdac48b35488c1ae882f1.p ack': Device or resource busy |
| 00:54 | <@Tarinaky> | rm: cannot remove `Corporate-Sky/.git/objects/pack/pack-42436d006470f106a41bdac48b35488c1ae882f1.p ack': Device or resource busy |
| 00:54 | <@Tarinaky> | Grr. |
| 00:54 | <@Tarinaky> | It won't let me delete a folder because it keeps reporting it busy :/ |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | kris_b_bills: In the topic there is a link to a website that lets you paste stuff |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | That will then give a URL you can paste here |
| 00:55 | | RichyB [richardb@Nightstar-86656b6c.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #code |
| 00:59 | < ShellNinja> | Restarting the computer to change resolution. ;_; |
| 00:59 | < ShellNinja> | We had truly come far. |
| 01:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: check dmesg/lsof? |
| 01:02 | <@Tarinaky> | aaSorry for spam. |
| 01:02 | <@Tarinaky> | I thought copy and paste wasn't working. |
| 01:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Turned out to be my sucky internet being sucky. |
| 01:03 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: cygwin doesn't /have/ lsof |
| 01:03 | <@Tarinaky> | Because /that/ would be too much like useful. |
| 01:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah |
| 01:04 | <@Tarinaky> | Apparently egit cannot cope with submodules at all :/ |
| 01:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | There's some windows tool that's an equivalent but I have no idea what |
| 01:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | I don't know egit |
| 01:04 | <@Tarinaky> | handle.exe |
| 01:04 | <@Tarinaky> | Which doesn't come with Windows. |
| 01:05 | <@Tarinaky> | Again, too much like fucking useful. |
| 01:05 | < Shiz> | dealwithit.bat |
| 01:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Eclipse seems to think there are uncommited changes. |
| 01:06 | <@Tarinaky> | git status reports, quite plainly, that the working directory is /clean/. |
| 01:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. I don't do eclipse, sorry. |
| 01:09 | < Shiz> | conclusion |
| 01:09 | < Shiz> | egit a shit |
| 01:12 | <@Alek> | in Eternal Space, iirc the Tech victory only requires getting to the top of the tech tree... and it doesn't require getting all the bottom ones, you can pathfind. BUT, various other techs, including ones on other trees, make the tech victory cheaper. |
| 01:12 | <@Alek> | something like that. |
| 01:13 | <@Alek> | cause it's hella expensive. |
| 01:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Right, now I can sleep. |
| 01:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Shiz: Proposition, there are no good alternatives. |
| 01:16 | <@Tarinaky> | The cli is alright for fixing broken shit/setting shit up... but it's clunk not to be able to make commits inside your IDE/text editor. |
| 01:16 | <@Tarinaky> | *clunky |
| 01:16 | <@Tarinaky> | We do know what the I in IDE stands for right? |
| 01:18 | <&McMartin> | Incomplete! |
| 01:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | I wonder if kris_b_bills is still here. |
| 01:23 | <&McMartin> | He's been PMing me. |
| 01:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ah. |
| 01:23 | | * celticminstrel sighs. |
| 01:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Have you figured out what the question is yet? |
| 01:23 | <&McMartin> | He did post something to the pastebin but it's in no language I recognize. Maybe Delphi, maybe some kind of domain specific language? |
| 01:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Toss it in here? |
| 01:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | I don't know why someone would come in here for help and then switch to PMs. |
| 01:23 | <&McMartin> | He's not really a coder and is looking for someone to help him write a specific script, which I've tried to explain is not generally how #code rolls |
| 01:24 | <&McMartin> | I'm pointing him back here, maybe it's something small |
| 01:24 | | * McMartin is neck-deep in NSIS stuff right now, doesn't have a lot of bandwidth to spare. |
| 01:26 | < ShellNinja> | Yaks shaved. MoO2 working. |
| 01:26 | | * McMartin is almost done updating the UQM net installer. |
| 01:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: MSVS, NetBeans, and IDEA all have git integration; there are probably others. |
| 01:27 | < ShellNinja> | So, what's new in UQM development? |
| 01:27 | <&McMartin> | ShellNinja: The Precursors just sent us The Final Mix. |
| 01:27 | <&McMartin> | So I'm making sure it actually integrates, etc. |
| 01:28 | <&McMartin> | The other thing is that SF.net has completely changed its backend. |
| 01:28 | <&McMartin> | (So if you've been playing with SVN copies, you will need to do a fresh checkout from the new code repositories) |
| 01:29 | < ShellNinja> | The Final Mix? |
| 01:29 | <&McMartin> | Every remaining unremixed track now has been. |
| 01:29 | <&McMartin> | Several new tracks have been added ex nihilo |
| 01:32 | < ShellNinja> | I see. |
| 01:32 | < ShellNinja> | Hmm. Now how do I play this silly game... |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | MoO 2? |
| 01:32 | < ShellNinja> | Yes. |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | ISTR it's more CivIIy than MoO 1, but I was bad at MoO 2 -_- |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | Also Civ II |
| 01:34 | <@gnolam> | You installed Windows 95 just to play MoO 2? o_O |
| 01:35 | <&McMartin> | I'm guessing he didn't have the DOS version? |
| 01:35 | | kris_b_bills [kris_b_bill@Nightstar-317c1093.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: irc2go] |
| 01:36 | < ShellNinja> | gnolam: Yes. |
| 01:37 | < ShellNinja> | McMartin: I did, actually, but it ran like molasses under DOSBox. |
| 01:37 | <@gnolam> | It at least used to work in WINE. |
| 01:38 | < ShellNinja> | So, I downloaded VBox, a floppy image set for Win95, the Windows version of MoO2, video drivers for Win95 and now I'm set! |
| 01:38 | < ShellNinja> | (Not shown: fucking around with ISOs and IMAs and CUEs, endless conversions and image creation.) |
| 01:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...and that runs acceptably? |
| 01:40 | < ShellNinja> | Yes. |
| 01:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Because in my experience dosbox is way faster than running any win9x in a VM. |
| 01:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | (once you turn the CPU speed up anyways) |
| 01:40 | <&McMartin> | ISTR that VBox does binary translation, so it might be able to get away with this? |
| 01:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: last time I tried it there was something about real-mode OSes that interfered with its ability to do so. |
| 01:42 | <&McMartin> | Mmm, actually, yeah, that's likely |
| 01:42 | <&McMartin> | IIRC VBox's core trick is that it runs the kernel mode in ring 1, and uses Access Denied hardware traps as its paravirtual entry point. |
| 01:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | Among other things, Dwarf Fortress in a win7 VM was actually faster than the native linux build of df, while anything in a win98 VM was a slideshow, including explorer. |
| 01:42 | | * McMartin blinks |
| 01:42 | <&McMartin> | I thought Win98 wasn't realmode. |
| 01:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | I may have the wrong term there. |
| 01:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | (the original reason I was setting up a win98 VM was to play the WCKS version of Wing Commander 2. That did not work out so well.) |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | Win95 was built on DOS and thus had to be 16-bit realmode with all apps doing the DOS4GW thing, but I thought Win98 was 32-bit protected mode all the way down |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | "protected" mode because it shared recklessly |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 01:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, I finally got around to uploading the version of my rogue-like that saves your progress. |
| 01:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Win98 was win95 with some UI and driver improvements, pretty much |
| 01:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | It was also built on DOS and also had the "hey let's stick a bunch of kernel data structures in globally accessible low memory" BSOD bait. |
| 01:44 | <&McMartin> | It was worse than that~ |
| 01:44 | <&McMartin> | The Globally Accessible Chunk Of Ram was *how you did all IPC* |
| 01:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Awesome |
| 01:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | That's not an invitation to disaster or anything |
| 01:45 | <&McMartin> | Well, you know, a GUI app is basically a TSR right |
| 01:45 | <&McMartin> | Unless you are Steve Jobs and it is 1995 |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | Credit where it's due: Win95 had something recognizable as pre-emptive multitasking. |
| 01:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or a bunch of MIT guys and it's 1985~ |
| 01:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Anyways |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | Well, no, I'm saying that MacOS apps at that time were *not* basically TSRs because MacOS programs didn't have that "T" part and thus you needed to do all the coop bs~ |
| 01:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh. Right |
| 01:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | ShellNinja: anyways. I have in fact played MoO2 in Dosbox, and it ran just fine even on my comically underpowered laptop of the time |
| 01:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Make sure that you aren't using a render mode that's crippled on your harder, and turn up the CPU speed if needed |
| 01:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | *hardware |
| 01:49 | < ShellNinja> | Mhm. |
| 01:51 | <@Namegduf> | VBox uses hardware virtualisation support. |
| 01:52 | <@Namegduf> | If available and enabled everywhere needed. |
| 01:52 | <@Namegduf> | That could make a big difference in performance. |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure if VT-x lets you swap in and out of real mode, though. |
| 01:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | I realize that this advice is a bit late given that you've already suffered through the whole process of setting up windows in a VM, but |
| 01:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | (that said, dosbox 0.74 appears to have some sort of bug where enabling the dynamic core causes it to crash spectacularly in some games :( |
| 02:03 | < ShellNinja> | ToxicFrog: The colony ships appear to take horrendeously long to build. |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | This is, in general, true in MoO II, yes |
| 02:04 | < ShellNinja> | Oh, well. It's not like I have any more good planets in range. Only tundras and barrens and radiated. |
| 02:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, yes, colony ships take forever to build, and? |
| 02:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is a game balance thing, not a game performance thing |
| 02:08 | < ShellNinja> | They did not take forever in MoO1. |
| 02:08 | < ShellNinja> | Just a bit long at the beginning. |
| 02:10 | <@Reiv> | TSR? |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | "Terminate and Stay Resident" - a weird thing that DOS let you build quasi-daemons out of. |
| 02:11 | <@Reiv> | OK? |
| 02:13 | < Shiz> | I prefer HCF |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | So, Windows 95 was built on top of DOS |
| 02:14 | < Shiz> | and 98 was as well |
| 02:14 | < Shiz> | and ME |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | DOS is laughably primitive as an OS; recognizable versions of it (by which I mean, the stuff DOS cheerfully looted) ran on the Commodore 64. |
| 02:14 | < Shiz> | 2k was the first windows to be built on top of ME |
| 02:14 | < Shiz> | err |
| 02:14 | < Shiz> | on NT |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | Well~ |
| 02:14 | < Shiz> | XP the first consumer windows |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | 2k was NT5 |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | Surely NT 1, 2, 3 and 4 count too~ |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | ... maybe only NT4 |
| 02:14 | < Shiz> | well you know what I mean |
| 02:15 | < Shiz> | the first mainstream windows |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | I'd go with "2k was the first consumer-targeted Windows that was NT-based, XP was the first one that consumers could actually use" |
| 02:15 | < Shiz> | well 2k was more of a server thing |
| 02:15 | < Shiz> | NT4 was workstations |
| 02:15 | | * McMartin nods |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | 2k was incredibly solid, though, in part for snapping its connection with DOS, which XP put back. |
| 02:16 | < Shiz> | and here we are 13 years later |
| 02:16 | < Shiz> | with only a 1.1 version difference |
| 02:16 | < Shiz> | in NT |
| 02:16 | < Shiz> | :) |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | 1.2, sir~ |
| 02:16 | < Shiz> | or is w8 6.3 now |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | w8 is 6.2 |
| 02:16 | < Shiz> | oh right yeah |
| 02:16 | < Shiz> | 1.2 |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | 2k was 5.0, XP was 5.1, XPSP...2? was 5.2, Vista 6.0, 7 6.1, 8 6.2 |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | The kernel uses semantic versioning, so I am A-OK with this. |
| 02:17 | < Shiz> | XP x86-64/WinServ 2003 was 5.2 |
| 02:17 | < Shiz> | afaik sp2 didn't update the kernel version |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I don't remember which SP it was, but I thought one of them did even on 32-bit |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | But I haven't had to contend with XP for a long, long time. |
| 02:17 | < Shiz> | nobody used 64-bit xp anyway |
| 02:18 | < Shiz> | well at that time |
| 02:18 | < Shiz> | you'd have to be insane |
| 02:18 | < Shiz> | (i was) |
| 02:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: er |
| 02:18 | | * McMartin writes software that runs in Enterprise environments, has to support XP64 but not Vista. |
| 02:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | What's this about the XP DOS connection? |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | TF: XP includes extensive replacements of the core DLLs and compatibility modes to allow pre-XP software to kind of sort of run, which 2k did not have. |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | This is why Nothing Ran On 2k. |
| 02:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah |
| 02:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, that's win9x compatibility mode. |
| 02:19 | < Shiz> | good ole command.com |
| 02:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | For Actual DOS both of them just include a VM. |
| 02:19 | < Shiz> | command.com didn't know what a registry was |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 02:19 | < Shiz> | so you could use it to bypass domain restrictions |
| 02:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | (not a good VM, at least for gaming, but) |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | HEh |
| 02:19 | < Shiz> | high school experiences |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | Man. |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | .com files |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | .com was hardcore. |
| 02:20 | < Shiz> | tell you what |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | The best executable memory format. |
| 02:20 | < Shiz> | in my old high school |
| 02:20 | < Shiz> | you could access anyone's personal files |
| 02:20 | < Shiz> | by making a shortcut to it |
| 02:20 | < Shiz> | it was something like \\studentdata\<login> |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | Er, file format, though it was the same thing~ |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | Oh geeze. |
| 02:21 | < Shiz> | even admin files |
| 02:21 | < Shiz> | and software to disable the remote view software |
| 02:21 | < Shiz> | (they were in the admin folder) |
| 02:21 | < Shiz> | I used that until they switched to new software |
| 02:21 | < Shiz> | probably because I told everyone how to bypass it |
| 02:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | My high school network didn't really have a concept of "users" or "security" |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | LDAP wasn't even invented until 1993, and while ultimately MS was the only company to bother actually dealing with it at any level it still took them awhile to nail it |
| 02:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | I mean, they made some token effort using something from Novell, but it didn't actually work in any meaningful sense |
| 02:22 | < Shiz> | we had PCs at our primary school |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | (Vista, meanwhile, got pervasive ACLs that Actually Worked, unlike XP's, which pretended to have them but didn't, which is one of two reasons Vista Broke Everything) |
| 02:22 | < Shiz> | I remember when they replaced the DOS PCs |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | Booyah, Novell Netware |
| 02:22 | < Shiz> | with brand-new xp-ready pcs |
| 02:22 | < Shiz> | which ran windows 98 |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | Important side note: I was in high school in 1992 |
| 02:23 | | * McMartin shakes his cane |
| 02:23 | < Shiz> | and passwords were 4 numbers |
| 02:23 | < Shiz> | like a pin code |
| 02:23 | < Shiz> | even in primary school I knew the admin password |
| 02:23 | < Shiz> | because I looked at an admin typing it in |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 02:23 | < Shiz> | this was in 2003 or so |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | So, I mentioned TSRs |
| 02:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm talking 1999-2003 here, it was win98 everywhere |
| 02:24 | < Shiz> | man |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | back in '92 a classmate got the admin password by writing a TSR that hooked the keyboard interrupt and echoed the letters to the screen as they were typed, then logged out. |
| 02:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | With the exception of the linux network we set up in one of the library rooms |
| 02:24 | < Shiz> | McMartin: excellent |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | The teacher always watched us instead of the screen, so then we all got the password~ |
| 02:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | With Doom and Descent installed on everything |
| 02:24 | < Shiz> | ToxicFrog: my primary school had no concept of installation policies either |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | My final project was a terrible text adventure starring him |
| 02:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | (we had a dedicated server and you could always tell when someone was editing the configuration because performance would tank as soon as they opened notepad~) |
| 02:25 | < Shiz> | in 2003 I had a whole suite of cracked adobe software |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | Actually most of our final projects were games or tech demos starring him |
| 02:25 | < Shiz> | in my home folder |
| 02:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: mine did, actually, this was a special invite-only IT course |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | He looked like Weird Al Yankvic if he had cut his hair instead of growing it out differently. |
| 02:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | With a policy that as long as the class average stayed above 90% we could use the computers we built for anything we wanted |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | He was great. We learned a lot. Some of it even from him. |
| 02:25 | < Shiz> | ToxicFrog: that's nice |
| 02:25 | < Shiz> | I only have had protective sysadmins |
| 02:26 | < Shiz> | "don't touch my stuff, get out" |
| 02:26 | < Shiz> | "or i'll report you" |
| 02:26 | < Shiz> | (and they did) |
| 02:26 | < Shiz> | (and I got suspended) |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | Now that schools are more heavily networked I can see that being a bigger issue. |
| 02:26 | < Shiz> | (for "hacking" school PCs) |
| 02:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | We also had class period immediately before lunch, which meant that if we finished the actual class material early (which we usually did) we could start deathmatching during class and keep going right through lunch. |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | Our little netware setup was physically isolated from all the other infotech at the school, back in the '90s |
| 02:26 | < Shiz> | physiacal isolation is the only isolation that works |
| 02:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | We were not, however, allowed to connect them to the internet or the rest of the school LAN. |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | And had no internet access, because it wasn't 1995 yet and nobody had it |
| 02:27 | < Shiz> | I think I had internet in '97 |
| 02:27 | < Shiz> | dial-up of course |
| 02:27 | < Shiz> | 14.4k |
| 02:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | (this class was actually run by one of the math teachers, Mr. Wagner, who was vastly superior as a computer teacher to the actual computer teacher) |
| 02:27 | <&McMartin> | (Hey, what do you know, the teacher I was praising earlier was *also* a math teacher primarily) |
| 02:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | (who actually vanished in my final year and was replaced by Mr. Wagner, who did an excellent job despite staying less than a chapter ahead of us for most of the semester) |
| 02:28 | < Shiz> | the misadventures of Wagner & Wagner |
| 02:28 | < Shiz> | V.32bis |
| 02:29 | < Shiz> | waas the modem we used |
| 02:29 | < Shiz> | whenever you traveled you had to find another phone number to dial into |
| 02:29 | < Shiz> | and of course you couldn't use the phone while using internet |
| 02:29 | <&McMartin> | Woo |
| 02:29 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, actually, now that you mention it |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | There was a BBS I had an account on that had Usenet access and internet email around '94-'96. |
| 02:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | US Robotics supremacy for modems |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | Then I went to uni at a global backbone site~ |
| 02:30 | < Shiz> | does us robotics even exist anymore |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | HAHAHAHAHA |
| 02:30 | | * McMartin wikis it |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | "not to be confused with U.S. Robots and Mechanical Men." |
| 02:30 | < Shiz> | USRobotics offers high-performance dial-up modems and business class modems for small- and medium sized business applications |
| 02:30 | < Shiz> | wow |
| 02:30 | < Shiz> | they only do dial-up |
| 02:30 | < Shiz> | still |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | "With the reduced usage of analog or voiceband modems in North America in the early 21st century, USR is now one of the few modem companies left in that market. It now employs about 125 people worldwide." |
| 02:31 | < Shiz> | Despite the name they have never made robots.[citation needed] |
| 02:31 | < Shiz> | citation |
| 02:31 | < Shiz> | needed |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | That's gonna be hard to provide~ |
| 02:31 | < Shiz> | burden of proof |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | Oh man |
| 02:31 | < Shiz> | prove to me that they made robots |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | Worse than that, it's demanding a proof of a negative |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | Anyway |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fax_modem_antigo.jpg |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | This is totally the modem I had back in HS |
| 02:32 | < Shiz> | I had a PCMCIA modem |
| 02:32 | < Shiz> | hitech |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | hodang, sir, you are from The Future |
| 02:32 | < Shiz> | wellthat's not entirely true |
| 02:32 | < Shiz> | I had another modem before that |
| 02:32 | < Shiz> | but that was a PCI card |
| 02:32 | < Shiz> | still hitech |
| 02:34 | < Shiz> | http://www.techiesbasement.com/media/3/a207917138b9ca0224bd2d_m.JPG |
| 02:34 | < Shiz> | soemething like thi |
| 02:34 | < Shiz> | s |
| 02:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | For us, it was some variation on this: http://www.data-connect.com/images/USR_Modem.jpg |
| 02:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | Right up until we switched to DSL. |
| 02:35 | < Shiz> | In the modern day, I love university internet though. |
| 02:35 | < Shiz> | Our uni workstations have 500/500 connections each |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | Ladies, gentlemen, allied nonhuman sophonts |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | https://sourceforge.net/projects/sc2/files/UQM/0.7/ |
| 02:36 | <@gnolam> | Speaking of modems: http://windytan.blogspot.fi/2012/11/the-sound-of-dialup-pictured.html |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | Could someone on Windows test out the 0.7.0-1 installer and make sure that (a) remix pack 4 is available and (b) it will install it? |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | (It is a network installer) |
| 02:40 | < Shiz> | gnolam: that is pretty interesting |
| 02:40 | < Shiz> | I never knew how a modem handshake looked like |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | That's pretty cool |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | Also, yeah, negotiating a modem protocol is Hard (tm) =( |
| 02:47 | < Shiz> | nostalgia for dialup |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | Not much nostalgia |
| 02:50 | < Shiz> | http://jonmillward.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Deep-Inside-Infographic-1 500px.jpg |
| 02:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | It should not be this hard to find binaries of an older version of dosbox for linux |
| 02:53 | < Shiz> | debian archives? |
| 02:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Actually, let's try an svn build first |
| 02:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | Heyitworks |
| 02:59 | < Shiz> | peopel still use svn? |
| 02:59 | < Shiz> | :3 |
| 03:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | the dosbox team apparently does |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | UQM still does |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | There is really no reason for someone to clone hundreds of megabytes of data in formats that are no longer supported because we just redid resource modeling instead of using AIFFs from 3DO image rips |
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| 03:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Anyways, this has fixed whatever issue was causing it to be very sad in dynamic core mode, which means SS1 is now actually playable |
| 03:18 | <&McMartin> | woot |
| 03:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | I would swear that I had a lua version of unres written at some point |
| 03:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | But I can't find it now |
| 03:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Lambda creation. \x,y => x*y, or \x,y -> x*y? |
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| 03:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Argh I really miss macros |
| 03:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Like really a lot |
| 03:52 | <&Derakon> | #define int long long |
| 03:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | No, actual macros |
| 03:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Lisp macros |
| 03:53 | < Shiz> | #define BEGIN { |
| 03:53 | < Shiz> | #define END } |
| 03:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | I would be writing this in clojure if it wouldn't also mean reimplementing Most Of Vstruct |
| 03:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Because for some reason no-one ever bothers supporting fixed point reals or 24-bit integers in their struct libraries |
| 03:54 | <&Derakon> | 24-bit ints wut |
| 03:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | It was DOS |
| 03:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | Space was precious |
| 03:56 | <&Derakon> | But 16-bit was too restrictive, eh? |
| 03:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 03:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | uint24_t is used for the size field of RES TOC entries |
| 03:57 | <&Derakon> | I am kind of surprised that fixed-point is not more of a thing. |
| 03:57 | <&Derakon> | I know it's not as efficient as floating-point, but it definitely has its uses. |
| 03:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | (fix24.8 is used for model coordinates, fix16.16 for texture coordinates) |
| 03:59 | <&Derakon> | Does fix16.16 mean two 16-bit values? |
| 03:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | 16 bits for the integer part and 16 bits for the fractional part. |
| 03:59 | <&Derakon> | What kind of texture mapping are you doing? O_o |
| 03:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm not, I don't even have the model format completely reverse engineered! |
| 04:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | (the context here is System Shock, arguably the most advanced game engine of 1994) |
| 04:01 | <&Derakon> | Yes, but why does it need 32 bits of precision for textures? |
| 04:01 | <&Derakon> | I can't imagine its textures were bigger than 256x256. |
| 04:01 | <&Derakon> | If that! |
| 04:01 | <&Derakon> | 64x64 seems more plausible. |
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| 04:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | The floppy version had 32x32 and 64x64 textures; the CD version added 128x128 and 256x256. |
| 04:05 | <&Derakon> | I'm impressed that the hardware was up to the task. |
| 04:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | It wasn't. Turn everything up and it'll bring a 100MHz Pentium to its knees, and it was released at a time when the 486 was standard. |
| 04:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | They futureproofed the shit out of this thing, though. |
| 04:05 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 04:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | Out of the box it only supports resolutions up to 640x480, but change five struct fields and it'll handle anything you can find an SVGA mode number for. |
| 04:06 | <&Derakon> | "We have 700 megabytes of storage, might as well huck the detailed textures onto that thing." |
| 04:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | And the HUD will all reposition and rescale itself automatically and whatnot. |
| 04:06 | <&Derakon> | Better than many modern games! |
| 04:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | Not as good as Total Annihilation, which will handle any resolution your video card claims to support with no modifications needed at all, but damn impressive for 1994. |
| 04:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm not sure if there are any intrinsic limits on texture size; if you patch in 512x512 textures it might Just Work. |
| 04:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Anyways. I don't actually know what they needed that much precision for in texture and model coordinates. |
| 04:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | However, if the models use the same scale as the map itself, 1.0 model distance units is about 2 meters. |
| 04:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | That seems unlikely given that the coordinate format is fix24.8, though, which would let you make a model significantly larger than the map itself. |
| 04:10 | < Vornicus> | System Shock's engine was befuddlingly amazing. |
| 04:10 | < Vornicus> | It also, unfortunately, showed its age very easily, but my goodness. |
| 04:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I do know that you can make models larger than a single map unit, though, because that's how they did room-over-room) |
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| 04:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | (the map format was flat, so for ROR they'd make a double-height room and slap some 3d floors and ceilings in to separate the floors) |
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| 04:52 | | * Alek remembers opening one program through DOSShell, switching back to the shell, and opening another... then switching back and forth at need. |
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| 05:13 | < Vornicus> | The most unfortunate thing about TA's gui rescaling is that you only got 6 build targets per page regardless, which was no fun, and the minimap didn't grow either. |
| 05:14 | < Vornicus> | --well, okay, and you didn't get any sort of zoom at all so things that were sensibly sized at 640x480 were now Waay Too Small |
| 05:16 | < Vornicus> | (and at the other hand the viewport advantages that a big screen got you were ridiculous) |
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| 15:10 | <@Tarinaky> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2684364/why-arent-programs-written-in-assembl y-more-often/2685541#2685541 |
| 15:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...that user has a very odd question history |
| 15:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Most of it is lisp related, and then this |
| 15:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I hadn't looked. |
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| 15:57 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm struggling to get bibtex to work. |
| 15:57 | <@Tarinaky> | None of the references are appearing in the compiled document... |
| 15:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Just the heading 'References'. |
| 15:58 | <@Tarinaky> | And yes, I am running the command multiple times. |
| 15:58 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm using TeXworks, because I'm on Windows. |
| 16:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Argh. |
| 16:06 | <@Tarinaky> | For some reason it keeps generating a bbl file without any references in it. |
| 16:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Which is madenning. |
| 16:09 | <@Tarinaky> | The only help google is giving me is that bibtex strips out unused citation and that I need to add a citation to the reference for it to be added. |
| 16:09 | <@Tarinaky> | I can /see/ the citation in the .tex file. |
| 16:09 | <@Tarinaky> | With my eyes. |
| 16:09 | | * Tarinaky points at it. |
| 16:09 | <@Tarinaky> | No suggestions on why the compiler is blind. |
| 16:10 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 16:10 | <@Tarinaky> | ...Oh.. |
| 16:10 | <@Tarinaky> | I have done something very silly. |
| 16:10 | | * Tarinaky blushes. |
| 16:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I forgot to escape '%' in a latex document and just spent ages trying to figure out why everything after that '%' character was being ignored >.< |
| 16:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Pfft, does anyone here know Mathematica? I'm trying to get it to do something specific and I don't know what I'm doing... |
| 16:55 | | * sshine shakes his head |
| 16:56 | | * Tarinaky frowns. |
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| 17:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Is % a comment character or something...? |
| 17:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 17:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes it is. |
| 17:02 | <@celticminstrel> | And you don't have syntax hiliting, I guess... |
| 17:03 | <@Tarinaky> | I got Mathematic to do what I needed it to. |
| 17:03 | | * Tarinaky happydances. |
| 17:03 | <@Tarinaky> | Even if it did involve large amounts of copy+paste programming. |
| 17:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 17:05 | <@Tarinaky> | Is there a sensible way to take a graph out of a mathematica notebook and in to a rasterised image? |
| 17:05 | <@Tarinaky> | Or even a vector image. |
| 17:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Answer: yes. |
| 17:08 | | EvilDarkLord is now known as Maze |
| 17:29 | < Syk> | https://github.com/hawkowl/mudkips |
| 17:29 | < Syk> | now you can import some mudkips along with your antigravity |
| 17:40 | | * Tarinaky grumbles trying to get mathematica to play nice with some percentage-based axes >.> |
| 17:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Ahah! |
| 18:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Stupid question... if f(x):[0,1]... Is there a technical name for the function g(x)=1-f(x)? |
| 18:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Errr |
| 18:13 | <@Tarinaky> | If f(x):R->[0,1] |
| 18:13 | < Harrower> | I'd guess at something with "complement" |
| 18:15 | | Syk is now known as syksleep |
| 18:16 | <@Tarinaky> | This assignment is supposed to be 7 pages. |
| 18:17 | <@Tarinaky> | I can only assume he expects us to be formatting it with latex margins at 30+ px font size. |
| 18:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Err |
| 18:17 | <@Tarinaky> | 30+ points |
| 18:17 | | * Tarinaky fails today. |
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| 18:42 | <@Tarinaky> | I am /so/ doing centroid defuzzification wrong. |
| 19:06 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 19:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: Rawr. |
| 20:13 | <@RStamer> | Trying to eat up as much RAM as I can without also eating up CPU at the same time and not installing any special tools for such. Basic XP install. Ideas? |
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| 20:27 | <@Tarinaky> | I need help with my assignment. Anyone here understand fuzzy logic at all? |
| 20:29 | | Xires is now known as ^Xires |
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| 20:30 | <@celticminstrel> | Fuzzy? |
| 20:30 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm struggling with how to apply Centroid Defuzzification to the assignment's problem./ |
| 20:31 | <@celticminstrel> | Is that true/false/null? |
| 20:31 | <@celticminstrel> | Or possibly/necessarily? |
| 20:31 | <@celticminstrel> | Or something else? |
| 20:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Possibly |
| 20:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Where you have some function describing a degree of membership for an element of a fuzzy set. |
| 20:32 | | * celticminstrel is thinking of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_logic and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic |
| 20:32 | <@celticminstrel> | Which sounds unlike what you just described. |
| 20:32 | <@Tarinaky> | It is unlike my assignment. |
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| 21:31 | <&McMartin> | Hm, this looks updated from when I saw it last |
| 21:31 | <&McMartin> | http://andrewvos.com/2011/02/21/amount-of-profanity-in-git-commit-messages-per-p rogramming-language/ |
| 21:31 | <&McMartin> | In particular, it now has bars for "omg" and "zomg", split out |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | http://justinhileman.info/article/git-pretty/ also makes me laugh |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | "Is anyone downstream?" -YES-> "Enough to form a lynch mob?" -NO-> "Do you hate them?" -YES-> "We're going to do an interactive rebase!" |
| 21:44 | <~Vornicus> | I'm actually kind of surprised how high the "ruby" one is. |
| 21:44 | <~Vornicus> | I mean I know I hate it but everybody who actually uses it seems to be in InsanelyGreat land. |
| 21:46 | <~Vornicus> | I'm also /extremely/ surprised at how low PHP's is |
| 21:46 | <@froztbyte> | see #otherchan for current discussion :) |
| 21:47 | | Xires is now known as ^Xires |
| 21:47 | <~Vornicus> | ah so |
| 21:47 | <@froztbyte> | I blame McMartin for the threading model there ;p |
| 21:48 | < Shiz> | interactive rebases are the best |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | I realized halfway through that it should have gone here~ |
| 21:55 | <@froztbyte> | hehe |
| 21:57 | | * jeroud needs to finish fixing glob in the Ruby implementation he's working on. |
| 21:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: fuzzy logic is degrees of ____, eg, rather than set membership being true-or-false, something that can be 0.7 in a set. |
| 21:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | (and 0.5 in another set) |
| 22:13 | <@Tarinaky> | TIL, pressing win+D by accident minimises everything to desktop. |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | So does doing it on purpose. |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | Win-left and Win-Right also make the current window take up that half of the screen |
| 22:22 | | ^Xires is now known as Xires |
| 22:23 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 22:27 | | himi [fow035@D741F1.243F35.CADC30.81D435] has joined #code |
| 22:27 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 23:04 | | Vornicus [vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 23:16 | <@Tarinaky> | What would you call a program written in a language like C that made no use of globals state or the heap? |
| 23:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Functional-Imperative? |
| 23:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Where functions take input, return output but can, strictly-internally, have state. |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | Functional means something specific that C does not do |
| 23:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Imperative implies you're making use of globals and heapspace though. |
| 23:18 | <&McMartin> | Imperative doesn't mean "stateful" |
| 23:32 | <@celticminstrel> | ...those bar charts grow as I look at them... |
| 23:33 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 23:39 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:45 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Wed Feb 20 00:00:34 2013 |