| --- Log opened Fri Feb 15 00:00:09 2013 |
| 00:00 | < RichyB> | I like the word "harshometer". |
| 00:00 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 00:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | Re snapshots vs references - lua does both, kind of. Closures have references to their upvalues but each function call/loop iteration is a "new scope" for the purposes of figuring out what's referred to. |
| 00:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | So, for example, function incdec() local counter = 0; return function() counter = counter+1; return counter; end, function() counter = counter-1; return counter; end end |
| 00:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | The two functions returned by incdec() share the same 'counter' upvalue, but if you call incdec() multiple times each function-pair returned by it shares a reference to an upvalue distinct from the other pairs. |
| 00:07 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | That's how python is |
| 00:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | Er |
| 00:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | What did you mean about creating closures in a loop, then? |
| 00:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | Because in lua, something like this: local x; for i=1,10 do yield(function() return x end) end |
| 00:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | Will yield ten closures over the same x, and this: |
| 00:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | for i=1,10 do local x; yield(function() return x end) end |
| 00:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | Will yield ten closures over ten different x's. |
| 00:08 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | def parent(): children = []; for i in range(10): children.append(lambda: i); return children |
| 00:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Right, what's the behaviour of that in python? |
| 00:09 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | I'm confused then. If you yield two functions without a loop they share a closure but if you do it within a loop they get different closures? |
| 00:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | In lua, children[1]() returns 1 and children[10] return 10. |
| 00:10 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | In python they'd all return 9 |
| 00:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | The difference is in where 'local x' is declared. |
| 00:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | If it's inside the loop, it gets re-declared on each loop iteration and is thus a different x by the time the closure is created. |
| 00:10 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Ahhh |
| 00:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | If it's outside the loop, it doesn't get redeclared. |
| 00:10 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Interesting, hmm. |
| 00:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | (loop variables are implicitly redeclared on each loop iteration) |
| 00:11 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Python doesn't have multiple scopes within a function. Variables created within a loop persist outside the loop |
| 00:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, that's what I expected, but your "that's how python is" confused me. |
| 00:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | (lua uses standard block scope) |
| 00:12 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, I missed the nuance of where the local is declared |
| 00:14 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Does seem like python's problem is entirely due to the lack of block scope |
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| 02:39 | < Bobsentme> | Anyone got a quick second to answer a python combination output question? In particular: Is it possible to format the output of a combination? |
| 02:40 | < Bobsentme> | Or am I stuck with "('Callback', 'Charge'), ('Callback', 'Education'), ('Charge', 'Education')" style output? |
| 02:41 | <&Derakon> | Uh, by "combination" do you mean "tuple"? |
| 02:42 | < Bobsentme> | Maybe? |
| 02:42 | <&Derakon> | In any event, if you want to format how a collection is displayed, you have to do it on a per-item basis. E.g. "<First: %s; second: %s>" % item |
| 02:42 | < Bobsentme> | Ah. |
| 02:42 | | * Bobsentme was trying to be lazy with all possible combinations of something. |
| 02:43 | <&Derakon> | Write a function~ |
| 02:43 | <@gnolam> | Zemyla: dammit, I keep reading it as "Zemlya". |
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| 02:46 | <@RobinStamer> | Bobsentme: P2 or P3? |
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| 02:53 | <@RobinStamer> | >>> def pp(i): |
| 02:53 | <@RobinStamer> | ... return '{0} {1}'.format(*i) |
| 02:53 | <@RobinStamer> | >>> list(map(pp, (('cb', 'ch'), ('cb', 'ed'), ('ch', 'ed')))) |
| 02:53 | <@RobinStamer> | ['cb ch', 'cb ed', 'ch ed'] |
| 02:53 | <@RobinStamer> | Python 3 ^ |
| 02:54 | <@RobinStamer> | >>> def pp(i): |
| 02:54 | <@RobinStamer> | ... return '%s %s' % i |
| 02:54 | <@RobinStamer> | >>> map(pp, (('cb', 'ch'), ('cb', 'ed'), ('ch', 'ed'))) |
| 02:54 | <@RobinStamer> | ['cb ch', 'cb ed', 'ch ed'] |
| 02:54 | <@RobinStamer> | Python 2 ^ |
| 02:57 | | * RobinStamer wonders WTF ctrl is behaving oddly |
| 02:57 | <@RobinStamer> | Suspects Windows went full retard and misunderstood "No" as "Yes, enable sticky keys" |
| 02:57 | <@RobinStamer> | As it has done that before. |
| 02:58 | < Bobsentme> | RobinStamer: python 2.7.3, so I suspect I'll use the second one. |
| 02:58 | < Bobsentme> | also: Awesome, thank you! |
| 02:58 | <@RobinStamer> | You're welcome |
| 02:59 | | * celticminstrel guesses the difference is that map() returns an iterator in Python3. |
| 02:59 | <@RobinStamer> | Yup |
| 02:59 | <@RobinStamer> | Yay Python! |
| 02:59 | | * RobinStamer doesn't do Python dev |
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| 02:59 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | 2.7 has str.format as well |
| 03:00 | <@RobinStamer> | Bah |
| 03:00 | <@RobinStamer> | % operator owns |
| 03:00 | < RichyB> | "sprintf operator" |
| 03:00 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, yeah, it does. I generally avoid the % operator unless I need to format twice. :P |
| 03:00 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | '%s %s' % a, b # what do? |
| 03:00 | <@celticminstrel> | ie, do formatting that produces a format string. |
| 03:01 | <@celticminstrel> | Wouldn't that throw an error? |
| 03:01 | < RichyB> | Rhamphoryncus: doesn't work, parses as (("%s %s" % a), b) |
| 03:01 | < RichyB> | Well, works iff a is a 2-tuple. |
| 03:01 | <@RobinStamer> | ... obviously you just /always/ give it a list/tuple variable and not freeform shit. |
| 03:02 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | RichyB: that's my point. It's ambiguous. A binary operator is totally inappropriate when one operand is an argument list |
| 03:02 | <@RobinStamer> | Why you would even expect that to work that way is beyond me. |
| 03:02 | <@celticminstrel> | It would be nice if it would just leave excess arguments unformatted. :/ |
| 03:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Rather than throwing an unnecessary error. |
| 03:02 | <@RobinStamer> | No, the one operand is a list/tuple. |
| 03:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Or dict. |
| 03:02 | <@celticminstrel> | I think. |
| 03:02 | <@RobinStamer> | celticminstrel: it's valid python, it parses fine |
| 03:02 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | celticminstrel: '{}'.format(3, 4) -> '3' |
| 03:02 | <@celticminstrel> | RobinStamer: Parses fine, but throws a TypeError. |
| 03:04 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | also '{foo}'.format(3, 4, foo=42) -> '42' |
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| 03:05 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | '%(foo)s' % {'foo': 42} -> '42' |
| 03:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...why does map return an iterator in python3? |
| 03:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | And can you treat iterators like lists in general |
| 03:08 | <@RobinStamer> | ... |
| 03:08 | <@RobinStamer> | Use the list() function |
| 03:08 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | ToxicFrog: nearly everything wants an iterable, yes |
| 03:09 | <@celticminstrel> | ...I meant excess placeholders, not excess arguments. |
| 03:09 | <@RobinStamer> | But I don't know. All I know is Python became a sinking ship the moment they declared all python programs must adhere to 4-space indents instead of tab-indents like a sane person. |
| 03:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Huhwhat? |
| 03:10 | <@RobinStamer> | Something called PEP |
| 03:10 | <@celticminstrel> | PEP doesn't count. |
| 03:10 | <@RobinStamer> | *shrugs* seemed official enough. |
| 03:10 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | RobinStamer: a) they didn't, that's an internal *convention*, b) tabs are stupid ;) |
| 03:10 | <@celticminstrel> | It's a recommendation, not something you're forced to do. |
| 03:10 | <@celticminstrel> | Tabs are not stupid. :| |
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| 03:11 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | It's not even a recommendation. It's for internal use. It just happens to be popular in the community (because it's a pretty good set of guidelines) |
| 03:11 | <@celticminstrel> | Except for the spaces. |
| 03:12 | <@celticminstrel> | And probably other things. |
| 03:12 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | celticminstrel: C code that actually stays sane when you adjust tab depth is near mythical. I have seen it. Ironically I write it myself. Almost nothing does though |
| 03:12 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | s/depth/width/ |
| 03:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Define "stays sane". |
| 03:13 | <@RobinStamer> | My secret to understandable C programs: hard limit of at most 4 indents on a line. Soft limit of 150 lines per function. |
| 03:13 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | .. sane. Usually the leading indentation is a mixture of tabs and spaces and and there's further tab use within the line (such as before a comment) |
| 03:13 | <@RobinStamer> | Pretty much forces you to keep things small and easily testable. |
| 03:14 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | RobinStamer: lots of indents -> code smell |
| 03:14 | <@celticminstrel> | I suppose tab use within a line is probably not such a good idea. |
| 03:14 | <@RobinStamer> | tab+spaces are always stupid. Only retards I know that used them is PHPNuke. |
| 03:14 | <@celticminstrel> | tab+spaces? |
| 03:15 | <@RobinStamer> | Two space indent, then every 4 indents would swap 8 spaces for a tab. |
| 03:15 | < RichyB> | No, that's idiotic. |
| 03:16 | <@celticminstrel> | ...uh... what? |
| 03:16 | <@RobinStamer> | On a completely unrelated note PHPNuke was basically the least insecure PHP program possible. |
| 03:16 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | My favourite is when you have a comment at the end of a line of code, starting at say column 41 (using a tab width of 4), but it's too big so you wrap it to a second line.. which is just a pile of tabs with a couple spaces until it looks right |
| 03:16 | <@RobinStamer> | Err |
| 03:16 | <@celticminstrel> | So basically, if you have a tab width of 4, nothing will be indented properly. |
| 03:16 | <@RobinStamer> | least secure* |
| 03:16 | < RichyB> | Using tab characters to compress runs of eight spaces. |
| 03:16 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | RichyB: idiotic AND common |
| 03:17 | < RichyB> | Never seen it, though I've seen misconfigured emacs produce it. |
| 03:17 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | The *only* way I can do consistent tabs is when I configure vim to show tabs |
| 03:17 | <@RobinStamer> | Elastic tabs needs more love :/ |
| 03:17 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
| 03:17 | < RichyB> | OTOH, there's a sane tabs+spaces mixing option, which is tabs for semantic indentation, spaces for alignment, and the width of a tab relative to spaces is left *undefined*. |
| 03:18 | <@celticminstrel> | How is that sane? |
| 03:18 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | RichyB: that's how tabs are "supposed" to work. It's the only way they have a purpose |
| 03:18 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Otherwise it's just "that other space key, like a typewriter had" |
| 03:18 | <@celticminstrel> | I guess alignment is always within the line rather than leading whitespace... |
| 03:18 | < RichyB> | Semantic indents, you use tabs. |
| 03:18 | <@Reiv> | Elastic tab spaces are a fantastic idea. |
| 03:19 | <@Reiv> | A pity they never worked out. |
| 03:19 | < RichyB> | If you want two bits of text to line up, you use a run of leading spaces after the last semantic tab. |
| 03:19 | < RichyB> | If you want two bits of text to line up that are on on different semantic indentation levels, tough cookies, not allowed. |
| 03:20 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | But even then it has basically no value. Spaces work perfectly well (and tab is a great shortcut key for an editor). Why would need a special tab character? |
| 03:21 | < RichyB> | Because the option of fighting over the number of spaces to use per indent level remains available. (Four is fine and correct in Python.) |
| 03:21 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | RichyB: 3, 4, 8, I don't really care. Be consistent. |
| 03:21 | < RichyB> | Because using tabs constrains your cursor's left-hand position to a small set of places that are all valid indents. |
| 03:21 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | huh? |
| 03:22 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | You're bothered that hitting the left arrow may only go over one space, rather than a full indentation? |
| 03:22 | < RichyB> | Yes, I am. |
| 03:22 | <~Vornicus> | 2 1/2! |
| 03:23 | < RichyB> | Vornicus: should be a valid option! While we're at it, how about going for a number of pixels that's coprime with the width of a space character? :) |
| 03:23 | <~Vornicus> | sqrt(5)! |
| 03:23 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | vs hitting shift-tab to move the current line over regardless, or going up to the previous line (presumably what you want to match with) and hitting home (many editors will put you to the first character, not the beginning of the line.) |
| 03:23 | <@celticminstrel> | Because navigating through the leading whitespace is easier if it's tabs. |
| 03:24 | <@celticminstrel> | As is adjusting the indentation, though editors do usually provide shortcuts for that. |
| 03:24 | < RichyB> | Vornicus: I'm going to veto that one on the basis that it's representable neither with IEEE-754 nor on my bitmapped screen. :) |
| 03:24 | | * celticminstrel was answering "Why would need a special tab character?" |
| 03:24 | <@celticminstrel> | ...which is missing a word somewhere. |
| 03:25 | < RichyB> | "anyone" <- here you go. |
| 03:25 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | celticminstrel: see what I just said |
| 03:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Yes, I'm bothered with the cursor being allowed in places that aren't a valid indent. |
| 03:26 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | So write another emacs mode ;) |
| 03:26 | <@celticminstrel> | Incidentally, it annoys me that Eclipse uses the tab key as the indent/dedent shortcut and Cmd-Left moves to the edge of whitespace rather than the beginning of the line. |
| 03:27 | < RichyB> | Bleh. Now you've created valid text edits that you can no longer perform using the keystrokes available to you. |
| 03:27 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
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| 03:27 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | scribes has home go to the edge of whitespace, but if you hit it again you go to the beginning of the line |
| 03:27 | < RichyB> | Rhamphoryncus' suggestion of creating an emacs mode for it. |
| 03:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | <RobinStamer> Use the list() function <Rhamphoryncus> ToxicFrog: nearly everything wants an iterable, yes |
| 03:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | No, I mean, is an iterator functionally equivalent to a lazy list |
| 03:27 | <@celticminstrel> | Mainly I don't like that it changes the semantics of the Cmd-Left keystroke. |
| 03:28 | < RichyB> | ToxicFrog: yes. |
| 03:28 | <@celticminstrel> | In every other program, it goes to the beginning of the line. Not in Eclipse. |
| 03:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | Can you pass it to something expecting a list or do you need to explicitly list() it first |
| 03:29 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | ToxicFrog: The only things that should *need* a list would be list's own methods |
| 03:29 | < RichyB> | You can pass it to anything that only needs to read entries off in-order. (An iterator is a thing which has a .next() method that may raise StopIteration). |
| 03:30 | < RichyB> | Some things are going to want actual list objects because they depend on features that lists do have but iterators don't, such as indexing (a[-1]), slicing (a[:3]) and in-place mutation (a[4] = 'bananas'). |
| 03:31 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | But that should just be code you write yourself. Published interfaces don't; either they'd want a dict or they'd make a list themselves |
| 03:34 | < RichyB> | That assumes that you don't care about the cost of copying an list that might already have perfectly servicable __slice__ or __setitem__. (Or the but-ugliness of searching for them with hasattr() or isinstance()). |
| 03:37 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | A public interface will either iterate the whole list, need to retain it until later, or both |
| 03:39 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | You don't want the user altering the list after they've given it to you |
| 03:44 | < RichyB> | Point. You don't want to hang on across calls to references to mutable objects that were passed to you from outside if you can avoid it. |
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| 11:07 | <@Tamber> | https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BDHEc4YCAAEtK22.jpg |
| 11:11 | <@froztbyte> | lulz |
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| 12:52 | <@TheWatcher> | Ugh, apparently I shouldn't be coding |
| 12:53 | <@RobinStamer> | Too tired? |
| 12:54 | <@TheWatcher> | Probably; my fingers are being perfidious, disobedient appendages. |
| 12:55 | < Syk> | how many tries did it take to write that |
| 12:55 | <@TheWatcher> | A couple. |
| 13:02 | < JustBob> | That awkward moment when you realize that you probably didn't do the problem right... But can't be arsed to go back through and recalculate everything: The miracles of partial credit. |
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| 14:14 | <@froztbyte> | I recall some people here were familiar with LabView |
| 14:14 | <@froztbyte> | correct? |
| 14:16 | <@gnolam> | VADE RETRO |
| 14:16 | <@gnolam> | It's a usability abomination. :P |
| 14:16 | <@froztbyte> | hehe |
| 14:17 | <@froztbyte> | well, my question fortunately doesn't pertain to that part |
| 14:18 | <@froztbyte> | I want to know: is it possible to use labview to build up a "module" of other software? |
| 14:18 | <@froztbyte> | I have this sensors-probing piece of software here, showing various stats |
| 14:18 | <@froztbyte> | if I poke at the ini file for it, it appears to reference NI and LabView a lot |
| 14:18 | <@froztbyte> | but I've never used labview at all, so I don't know how it works |
| 14:29 | <@froztbyte> | (the long-term goal of this is cut out the middle bullshit that currently needs a full system with XP, and run the entire platform from a rasppi) |
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| 17:06 | | mode/#code [+ao Derakon Derakon] by ChanServ |
| 17:06 | | * Derakon amuses at his correction project (linearizing the response of a camera). |
| 17:06 | <&Derakon> | I took a new dataset, and post-linearization it has a correlation coefficient of .999925, which isn't as good as we were achieving with the previous dataset. |
| 17:07 | <&Derakon> | Boss suggested that I try iterating the linearization (i.e. feed the corrected data back into the algorithm). |
| 17:07 | <&Derakon> | This produced a dataset with a correlation coefficient of .999926. |
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| 17:20 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Derakon: lol |
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| 19:44 | <@froztbyte> | Derakon: upgrades! |
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| 20:02 | < JustBob> | Hrm. |
| 20:02 | < JustBob> | This is the place that might know. |
| 20:02 | < JustBob> | Is there a good Office-esque for droid that can actually open docx files in their entirety, properly? |
| 20:03 | <@froztbyte> | Bob requires Knowledge. |
| 20:03 | <@froztbyte> | JustBob: ....no idea |
| 20:03 | < JustBob> | 90% of my stuff is filled with equations that Polaris Office just cannot read. |
| 20:03 | <@froztbyte> | I don't think anything aboutside of Office * even really opens .docx properly |
| 20:03 | < JustBob> | Well, that's true. |
| 20:03 | <@froztbyte> | last I tried in OOo^WLibre^WFreetard Publication Software^WWhatever, it would break by default |
| 20:03 | <@froztbyte> | formatting and whatever |
| 20:04 | <@froztbyte> | my best suggestion would be stick it in Google Drive, use that |
| 20:04 | < JustBob> | Google Drive does not play well with equations either. |
| 20:04 | <@froztbyte> | should I ask why your equations are in docx and not (la)tex? |
| 20:06 | < JustBob> | Because I use the built-in equation generator in MS Word? |
| 20:06 | < JustBob> | http://people.oregonstate.edu/~loa/Class/HW%20%233.pdf <- They come out fine as pdfs, amusing. |
| 20:06 | < JustBob> | *amusingly |
| 20:06 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 20:07 | < JustBob> | Anyway, yeah. Google docs doesn't like that many equations, either. :p |
| 20:09 | <@froztbyte> | hehe |
| 20:09 | <@froztbyte> | k so I don't really have a view suggestion |
| 20:09 | <@froztbyte> | but there's the Math component in LibreOffice that I have no idea how good it is |
| 20:09 | <@froztbyte> | and then there's LaTeX that's probably worth investigating a bit |
| 20:10 | <@froztbyte> | the latter is the golden standard in these things, afaik |
| 20:10 | < JustBob> | LaTeX's syntax drives me insane. |
| 20:10 | <@froztbyte> | there are ways you can improve the situation somewhat |
| 20:10 | < JustBob> | And it's not native to Word, which is the other part; if I wanted to deal with /that/, I'd just do everything in matlab. |
| 20:10 | <@froztbyte> | latex-oriented editors and so |
| 20:10 | <@froztbyte> | but yes |
| 20:11 | <@froztbyte> | your process seems to combine "formula documentation" and "the rest of everything" :P |
| 20:11 | <@froztbyte> | Derakon has done some neat presentations before, I think |
| 20:11 | <@froztbyte> | it might be one of the other academic guys |
| 20:11 | <@froztbyte> | but imma go try clean my laptop screen now, since I have nothing more of direct use to add here, and there's oil spatter on it |
| 20:11 | < JustBob> | Heh. |
| 20:12 | < JustBob> | Well, mine tends to be "I hate writing everything out by hand" |
| 20:13 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:17 | <&Derakon> | I don't actually do many presentations; my most recent one did use Google Docs though. |
| 20:17 | <&Derakon> | It's serviceable enough. |
| 20:19 | < JustBob> | It's workable, sure, but it's not... I dunno. It doesn't play nicely, with a lot of my stuff. |
| 20:19 | < JustBob> | 90% is fine, but when you have subscripts on your subscripts because you're nesting ten symbolics inside each other... Yeah, it gets wonky. |
| 20:20 | <@Namegduf> | As a decent rule of thumb, nothing but official MS stuff can open MS formats "in their entirity", and even then it isn't certain if you go old enough. |
| 20:20 | <@Namegduf> | (Or use features which MS removed, as happened in some versions of Excel, I think) |
| 20:20 | < JustBob> | And the good ol' word '97 format. |
| 20:20 | < JustBob> | Which Office 2010 treats like trying to open chinese-formatted text in notepad. |
| 20:21 | <@Namegduf> | Complex formatting and formulae are unfortunately exactly what I'd expect to break. |
| 20:21 | < JustBob> | Which is, alas, the irksome part. |
| 20:21 | < JustBob> | Since that's my primary reason for sticking with the office suite. |
| 20:21 | < JustBob> | Well, aside from MS OneNote, because there's nothing else like it. |
| 20:22 | <&McMartin> | ... I can open chinese text in Notepad |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | Oh |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | You mean it interprets the '97 .doc as Unicode~ |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | n/m~ |
| 20:25 | < JustBob> | It interprets it weirdly, yes. |
| 20:25 | < JustBob> | I find that it's easier to open my ancient doc archives in wordpad or notepad, then copypasta to word. |
| 20:28 | < JustBob> | And now, to wait for the damned newegg sale so I can swap my HDD with an SSD and spend 3.7 hours raging about needing to reinstall everything on wireless. |
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| 20:45 | <@froztbyte> | JustBob: so what happens there |
| 20:45 | <@froztbyte> | is that "text" is not actually just text |
| 20:46 | <@froztbyte> | you get different ways of encoding it |
| 20:47 | <@froztbyte> | and with the wrong filetype markers in place (or absent), some software just read to the stream boundaries it expects for a thing, pick the character from the relevant (currently configured) map, and display it |
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| --- Log closed Sat Feb 16 00:00:24 2013 |