| --- Log opened Mon Dec 24 00:00:48 2012 |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | But a better solution for this is some kind of source-to-source translator, especially if you're written in a scripting language like Python in the first place |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | For a compiled engine written in C++ or Java, embedding a scripting language and deferring to that at appropriate points is more the standard approach. |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | For C++, Lua and Python are the "obvious" choices; for Java, JavaScript is due to Rhino being part of the standard library. |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | (Lua meanwhile is designed for C/C++ integration, and a semi-standard library called boost::python handles Python/C++ integration pretty cleanly) |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | Given my own twisted perversions of design, for Shitloads Of Dialogue I would probably use some kind of XML file and then generate code from that |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | Since it's text heavy the XML silliness would stay enough out of the way to not be obnoxious, and I have several languages handy which are really good at XML processing (Python is one of these) |
| 00:04 | <&McMartin> | I would not want to put python code *in* the XML, though; I'd probably add a layer of indirection of some kind; probably some kind of string that could be sent to getattr() on an extensions object, yielding a callable method |
| 00:08 | <&McMartin> | Some of that is inertia from more restrictive languages, but you can use that as a gating mechanism to block code injection attacks as well. |
| 00:11 | <@froztbyte> | I should note that you probably wouldn't want it all in one XML file |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that too |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | On the plus side, XML files are not hard to programatically break apart |
| 00:12 | <@froztbyte> | unless you have pretty decent length prefixing and a stream processor |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | Well, this is dialogue for a game |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | You should not be seriously memory constrained |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | Unless you're including base64-encoded speech files in it. |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | (do not do this) |
| 00:12 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 00:12 | <@froztbyte> | (make it an option) |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | (then have it produce screenfuls of profanity if used) |
| 00:13 | <@froztbyte> | (yessssss) |
| 00:13 | <@froztbyte> | oh, also |
| 00:13 | <&McMartin> | (There should also be a switch to make the %n format string code do this) |
| 00:13 | <@froztbyte> | please for the love of all the elder gods don't use regexes to deal with any of the XML :P |
| 00:13 | <@froztbyte> | lxml and friends are good for you. |
| 00:13 | <&McMartin> | If you're in Python, xml.dom.minidom r0xx0rz the s0xx0rz and h4xx0rz the, uh, b4xx0rz? |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | Again assuming you can cram the whole document into your address space |
| 00:14 | <@froztbyte> | why that over lxml/etree? |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | Hm. From scratch, no a priori reason |
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| 00:14 | <@froztbyte> | fair enough |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | If you'd already been using libxml2 for some reason, though, the constants and such are already familiar so you can (by which I mean I could) jump right in |
| 00:15 | <@froztbyte> | yeah that makes sense |
| 00:15 | <@froztbyte> | familiar ABIs, etc |
| 00:15 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | And in practice it's always ended up getting me where I needed to go so fast that I got what I needed done finished before I could think of maybe trying a new system. |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | clojure/xml is fairly good except for some technically correct but practically disastrous stuff it inherits from Java's XML libraries |
| 00:17 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 00:17 | <@froztbyte> | clojure seems to be developing semi decently |
| 00:17 | <@froztbyte> | though I only see some commentary about it from outside now and then |
| 00:18 | <@froztbyte> | atm my main interests are in sharpening my python ability a lot more (since I write python sloooooooooooooooooooooowly, mostly due to lack of practice), and then getting moar haskell |
| 00:20 | < ErikMesoy|sleepless> | So now I'm considering how to make Python dialogue the most readable, assuming a big honking parser that it passes through on the way to the game |
| 00:22 | < ErikMesoy|sleepless> | http://pastie.org/5570363 |
| 00:23 | < ErikMesoy|sleepless> | I'll call back on this a few months or years from now, I suppose. :-P |
| 00:24 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | Obvious things missing here are the ability to selectively enable and disable choices. |
| 00:25 | < ErikMesoy|sleepless> | other than how conditional_choice would hypothetically work by only showing the choice if the condition is met? |
| 00:25 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 00:25 | < ErikMesoy|sleepless> | Please explain. |
| 00:25 | <&McMartin> | Hm. |
| 00:25 | <&McMartin> | This is easier with an example, so: have you played The Secret of Monkey Island? |
| 00:25 | < ErikMesoy|sleepless> | Not personally, but I have osmosed about half the content. :p |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | OK, any graphic adventures from that general era |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, it had menus like this |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | Depending on the kind of conversation, you could have two kinds of menu shifts |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | There's what you've written here, where followup questions have to be taken immediately... |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | ... and then there's a mechanism where followup questions get folded or spliced into ConversationMain |
| 00:28 | <&McMartin> | I had mentioned phtalkoo.h in the past. |
| 00:29 | < ErikMesoy|sleepless> | Right. Well, that's *doable* by having ConversationMain have a lot of conditional_choice(question in ListOfFollowups), but that's clunky and I see why you'd want a separate explicit function for this sort of thing |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> | Traditionally, that separate explicit function was actually *all you had* - the notion of conversation nodes was a later innovation |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> | http://inform7.com/extensions/Michael%20Martin/Quip-Based%20Conversation/doc_5.h tml |
| 00:30 | <&McMartin> | In this library, "deliver the ___ quip" is "force choice X, even if it's not available", "run a conversation on ________" is "go to conversation node ______", and choices autodisable when selected unless forced otherwise. |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | (Redesigning the API for this has been on my list of things to do for years) |
| 00:32 | <&McMartin> | (Inform 7 allows you to invoke code from *inside strings as print statements*, and this can be used to drastically streamline much of the code) |
| 00:33 | | * ErikMesoy|sleepless is learning programming through rediscovering the wheel! :D |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | It's a good way to do it |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | I'm the old codger on the porch with the rocking chair and the shotgun who reads the history books |
| 00:33 | <@Tamber> | And the mined front lawn. |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | (I am, after all, only 34) |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | I can't mine the front lawn, how will the deliveryman bring me my pie |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | Priorities, people! |
| 00:34 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | Speaking of histories, I had lots of fun with this book: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/racing-beam |
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| 00:37 | <&McMartin> | The early programmers were goddamned madmen |
| 00:37 | <@Tamber> | They had to be, though~ |
| 00:37 | <&McMartin> | Well, yes |
| 00:37 | <&McMartin> | But that they succeeded at things is still kind of astounding |
| 00:38 | <&McMartin> | That book traces the evolution of some of the techniques, and shows how constraints influenced and sometimes improved the designs. |
| 00:38 | <&McMartin> | It's fun |
| 00:38 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:38 | < ErikMesoy|sleepless> | Reminds me of the running gag about Sidereals in Exalted: "You have a cat, a lump of silly putty, and the favor of the Prince of Denmark. Your job is to get these twenty nails hammered in. You have 28 minutes." |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 00:39 | < ErikMesoy|sleepless> | I gather early programming was about that restricted, although the constraints weren't quite as humorous. |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, so, the Atari 2600 had 4KB ROM and 128 bytes of RAM |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | Which is a thing on its own, but it also didn't have any video processing to speak of |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | So you had to manually throw VBLANKs |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | There *was* a timing register that was basically "wait for HBLANK to stark" |
| 00:40 | <&McMartin> | "Sprites" were one scanline long, and locked in place (so your processing speed determined your vertical resolution) |
| 00:40 | <&McMartin> | To place a sprite, there was a register you would write to. That register was "put the sprite where the electron gun is *right now*" |
| 00:41 | <&McMartin> | So X-positioning of sprites on the 2600 required cyclecounting |
| 00:41 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:41 | <&McMartin> | (One placed, it stuck, so you could then move it relatively, but there was artifacting unless you only did this between frames) |
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| 02:38 | < Vornotron> | "Hey, princey. Know a crazy caprenter? I can pay in cat. |
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| 03:07 | <&McM|travails> | wat |
| 03:22 | < Vornotron> | You get the prince to find you a carpenter who will accept a cat as payment for hammering nails. |
| 03:22 | < Vornotron> | Obviously |
| 03:22 | <&McM|travails> | That is science, but I cannot see to what end |
| 03:24 | < Vornotron> | ErikMesoy's thing up there |
| 03:25 | <&McM|travails> | Ah, yes, I see |
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| 11:52 | < ErikMesoy> | I want to google and RTFM something. What's the proper name for the subject of when the GUI should call the UI with GiveMeNextButtons(ChosenButton) as opposed to the UI calling the GUI with ShowAndGetUserChoice(ButtonChoices) ? |
| 11:55 | < AbuDhabi> | Focus? I dunno. |
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| 19:33 | < AbuDhabi> | I have an argument that takes an integer pointer. Can I pass an array there like {1,2,3} there? |
| 19:35 | <@Tamber> | C? |
| 19:35 | < AbuDhabi> | Yes. |
| 19:36 | <@Tamber> | I ...think so, yes; but it'll only access the first element. |
| 19:36 | <@Tamber> | I could be wrong, it happens a lot. |
| 19:37 | < AbuDhabi> | I am presuming the argument actually wants an array. It's not 100% clear from the documentation. |
| 19:40 | <@Tamber> | Well, an array *is* just a bit of gloss on pointers. |
| 19:40 | <@Tamber> | Will anything break if you try it and see what happens? |
| 19:41 | < AbuDhabi> | Apparently it breaks on trying to convert int* to Sint16*. |
| 19:41 | <@Tamber> | Hm. |
| 19:41 | | * AbuDhabi makes actual arrays of Sint16s. |
| 19:44 | | * AbuDhabi is making units! |
| 19:45 | < AbuDhabi> | So far there are like nearly 200k types of units! |
| 19:45 | < ErikMesoy> | "types" as in? |
| 19:46 | < AbuDhabi> | I have sixteen unit property flags. Each combination counts as a different unit. |
| 19:46 | < ErikMesoy> | Aha. |
| 19:46 | < AbuDhabi> | I am presently figuring out how to properly have them displayed using a modified NATO symbology. |
| 19:46 | | * ErikMesoy is making containers. |
| 19:46 | | * AbuDhabi breaks the pot! |
| 19:46 | < ErikMesoy> | I have been storing dialogue in dicts of {dialogue option:branch it leads to} but want to tweak this so that Yes/No questions don't show as No/Yes. |
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| 19:49 | | * AbuDhabi walks around with a flying AA engineer unit. |
| 19:49 | < ErikMesoy> | Are you going for SMAC's "two flags per unit" limit, or a huge table of what is and isn't compatible with other flags, or something else? |
| 19:50 | < AbuDhabi> | Probably limits in the designer to unselect incompatible things. |
| 19:50 | < AbuDhabi> | Though I don't really foresee much problems with that. After all, MoO managed pretty well without arbitrary restrictions. |
| 19:50 | < AbuDhabi> | You just had to mind the cost/space. |
| 19:50 | < ErikMesoy> | That had three flags per unit. |
| 19:51 | < AbuDhabi> | I blame that on early programming. :P |
| 19:52 | < AbuDhabi> | I don't see why you can't have flying settler-engineers with artillery, rockets and nuclear weapons. |
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| 20:09 | < AbuDhabi> | http://i48.tinypic.com/2aenf2u.jpg |
| 20:09 | < AbuDhabi> | This is an air-defence boat. |
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| 20:23 | <@Tarinaky> | ErikMesoy: Use a list of tuples? |
| 20:24 | <@Tarinaky> | [("Yes", graphNodeYes), ("No", graphNodeNo)] |
| 20:25 | <@Tarinaky> | The user then selects either 0 or 1 - refering to the index of the element in the list. |
| 20:28 | < ErikMesoy> | Tarinaky: That makes it hard to call by key. |
| 20:29 | <@Tarinaky> | You shouldn't be using the dialogue itself as a key. |
| 20:29 | < ErikMesoy> | If I have options=[("Yes", graphNodeYes), ("No", graphNodeNo)], then options["Yes"] is invalid. |
| 20:29 | <@Tarinaky> | options[0] is valid. |
| 20:29 | < ErikMesoy> | I'm currently actually using two sets of dictionaries |
| 20:30 | < ErikMesoy> | One maps option numbers to option labels, the other maps option labels to dialogue branches. |
| 20:30 | < ErikMesoy> | This is already a sign that I need something other than a dict, possibly involving triples, but the key-call of dicts is very convenient. |
| 20:30 | < ErikMesoy> | So I'm reading about container types and considering rolling my own. |
| 20:58 | < ErikMesoy> | Meh. A list of 2-tuples it is. |
| 20:59 | <@Azash> | No key-value data structures? |
| 21:01 | < ErikMesoy> | They'd need a search anyway; I might as well put one on the list, I think |
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| 21:27 | < ErikMesoy> | Mehblahblahgrumble |
| 21:28 | < AbuDhabi> | ErikMesoy: A PROTIP, if you will. Leave hints for Future Erik. |
| 21:33 | < ErikMesoy> | Yeah, but I'm not seeing any I need to leave just yet |
| 21:33 | < ErikMesoy> | So far my sister can understand the code from reading it. :p |
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| --- Log closed Tue Dec 25 00:00:03 2012 |