| --- Log opened Sun Dec 16 00:00:45 2012 |
| 00:01 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 00:01 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 00:09 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 00:09 | | himi-cat [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 00:51 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:53 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:37 | | mac [mac@Nightstar-fe8a1f12.il.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 01:54 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-724ec5eb.bigpond.net.au] has joined #code |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | Hmm |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | I'd missed that Sam Latinga was now at Valve |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | THis makes sense, given that I'm seeing SDL-related assertions in Linux!TF2. |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | ALso, hm |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | Maybe I should start this work with just a stock framebuffer renderer |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | I'm gonna need one eventually. |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | Also, SDL2 has stuff that would be nice to have, but I can't trust it yet ;_; |
| 02:23 | <&Derakon> | I thought SDL2 was ancient? |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | SDL2 isn't remotely ready to be released yet. |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | It's "hg head", more or less |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | But it's what, for instance, Source is using, becuase it handles important things like DX10-level functionality in OpenGL. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | SDL 1.2 is the ancient one. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | It hasn't changed significantly in 10 years. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | More. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | SDL 1.2.15 is officially the Last Version Of SDL 1.2. |
| 02:26 | < himi-cat> | SDL 1.2 is so ancient it creaks whenever you install it |
| 02:27 | < himi-cat> | Seriously - make sure you have speakers plugged in and not muted, and install it |
| 02:27 | <&McMartin> | Well. THe API. |
| 02:27 | <&McMartin> | 1.2.15 is new enough it's not in my repos. |
| 02:27 | <&McMartin> | I love how they're still crowing about being used in such games as Civilization: Call To Power when they could instead be citing TF2 |
| 02:28 | < himi-cat> | heh |
| 02:28 | < himi-cat> | That's a pretty good indication of how old it is |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | Well. |
| 02:29 | <&McMartin> | It was 1.2.2 or something when UQM started. |
| 02:29 | <&McMartin> | Which was over 10 years ago, now. |
| 02:29 | < himi-cat> | It's had significant work gone into it - it's not unmaintained |
| 02:30 | < himi-cat> | But it's still a pretty damn ancient codebase and API |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | Yup |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | Which is why it has some of the hilarious quirks that, say, DirectX does. |
| 02:30 | < himi-cat> | And for what it does I don't know if there are any reasonable alternatives |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | And for the same reasons. Old, needed to handle changes in hardware paradigm |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | None, not even remotely |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | The absolute closest is FreeGLUT, which, well, lol. |
| 02:31 | < himi-cat> | lolyuk |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | Actually, its real competitor is "Find a reasonably stable revision point of SDL 2.0 and use that" |
| 02:31 | < himi-cat> | There are a number of other similar ideas, but as far as I know they're all old and bitrotted to death |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | And most of them want to be *engines*, not a hardware abstraction |
| 02:31 | | * himi-cat nods |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | SDL2 is making the distinction between hardware surfaces, software surfaces, and render targets more stark |
| 02:32 | < himi-cat> | In a way its competition is stuff like OSG, but they're in a totally different league |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | I don't recognize OSG |
| 02:32 | < himi-cat> | OpenSceneGraph |
| 02:33 | < himi-cat> | Which, as the name suggests, is a 3D scene graph system |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | I'm looing at it |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | *looking |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | Hmm, this isn't at Allegro's abstraction level, but it's still a different abstraction level than SDL. |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | ALso, it's only for Graphics |
| 02:34 | < himi-cat> | It's a nice system, and it's viable to pull out a few bits and use them without requiring the whole shebang, but it's still a very big chunk of code |
| 02:34 | | * himi-cat nods |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | SDL2 has as major features "dynamically detect when a joystick is plugged in or unplugged" or "multiple simultaneous pointer device support" |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | OSG is a widget toolkit, where SDL is a WM. |
| 02:34 | < himi-cat> | Most of the stuff I know of using OSG uses SDL for input |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | And WM integration, yeah |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | WM integration is the biggest gain for me |
| 02:35 | | * himi-cat nods |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | Though input is also very important |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | There are better solutions for sound but it does offer one. |
| 02:35 | < himi-cat> | That's the nice thing about the more sophisticated toolkits, and one of the things I /hate/ about GLUT |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | SDL's input model is honestly superb |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | It's very close to what turns out to be the metal of all major OSes but without hewing too closely to any of them. |
| 02:36 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-e83b3651.cable.rogers.com] has joined #code |
| 02:36 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | There are only a few gaps and they're things like ACPI events. |
| 02:36 | < himi-cat> | That's not a bad result given it dates back to early stages of development of the current major OSes |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 02:36 | < himi-cat> | Well, early-ish |
| 02:37 | <&McMartin> | There's a reason it lasted 10 years |
| 02:37 | | * himi-cat nods |
| 02:37 | <&McMartin> | Cynic: THis is actually because we've been all ripping off PARC for 40 years~ |
| 02:37 | | * himi-cat snickers |
| 02:38 | < himi-cat> | I'd be curious to see if the devs at PARC had all the standard input hardware we use now |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | Mice have improved in form and function, but only in ways that are easy to predict. |
| 02:39 | < himi-cat> | I was going to say I don't think they would, but there's not been many real changes now that I think about it |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | I guess scroll wheels are technically new, but that still fits into the event publish/subscribe models. |
| 02:39 | < himi-cat> | Yeah, I was thinking more of things like joysticks and touch-surfaces and the like |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | Joysticks in GUIs ended up being poor man's mice. |
| 02:40 | < himi-cat> | Single-touch definitely, joysticks yes - the only thing that probably wasn't around was multi-touch |
| 02:40 | | * himi-cat nods |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | (Hi there, GEOS) |
| 02:40 | < himi-cat> | That might explain why multi-touch has been such a pain to integrate into modern GUIs |
| 02:40 | <&Derakon> | There's haptic interfaces, where you can "feel" / "sculpt" three-dimensionally. |
| 02:40 | | * himi-cat nods |
| 02:40 | <&Derakon> | They haven't really caught on with the general populace yet though. |
| 02:40 | < himi-cat> | They're not well handled, though |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | RIght |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | And, well |
| 02:41 | < himi-cat> | You need dedicated support in the software |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | If you can handle mouse and keyboard, you're doing something that fits well into the core notion of all windowing systems. |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | poll/select is Just The Answer as far as this species is concerned |
| 02:41 | < himi-cat> | And the actual use-cases for them are a) academic research and b) stuff that still hasn't gotten out of academic research |
| 02:41 | <@celticminstrel> | I wish two-dimensional scroll wheels were standard. :/ |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | ... trackballs? |
| 02:41 | | * McMartin isn't totally clear on what you describe. |
| 02:41 | <@celticminstrel> | No, two-dimensional scroll wheels. |
| 02:42 | <&Derakon> | Himi: and 3D modeling! |
| 02:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Vertical and horizontal. |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | I'm having trouble imagining one. |
| 02:42 | < himi-cat> | The only cases where haptics are actually any use is with things like remote surgery |
| 02:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Trackballs are 360 degrees, so even more degrees of freedom. |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | Is it like a trackball, but just where the scrollwheel goes? |
| 02:42 | <&Derakon> | Professional 3D modelers wear 3D glasses and I'm pretty sure at least some of them use haptic sculpting interfaces. |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | OK, I'm seriously not sure what this device looks like |
| 02:42 | < himi-cat> | Derakon: I haven't seen any case of 3D modelling that makes use of haptics |
| 02:42 | <@celticminstrel> | I have a two-dimensional scroll wheel, sorta. It's a normal wheel. but you can also nudge it sideways. |
| 02:42 | < himi-cat> | Huh |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: Hm. so, like a POV hat for a mouse? |
| 02:43 | <@celticminstrel> | I suppose? |
| 02:43 | < himi-cat> | 3D glasses can help, but I'm not sure how haptics would really help |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | (HATS ARE THE FUTURE, GABEN WAS RIGHT) |
| 02:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Is POV hat like a +-pad? |
| 02:43 | < himi-cat> | Maybe if you were a physical sculptor as well |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | Programatically, yes |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | In practice, a little less so |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | Let me see if I can find a picture |
| 02:43 | <@celticminstrel> | But 360-degree wheels (as in the Mighty Mouse) would be just as acceptable. |
| 02:44 | <@celticminstrel> | This is my mouse: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__fGE9uGYw5A/TKwQi1Q-_eI/AAAAAAAABZs/7xJv56Oz1lM/s1600/ Logitech+LX3+Optical+Mouse.jpg |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | Aha, OK |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | So a hat in one dimension, a wheel in the other |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | OK I can see that |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | Nice |
| 02:44 | <@celticminstrel> | Basically the idea is, scroll wheels should not be limited to one dimension. |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | Also, great form factor |
| 02:44 | < himi-cat> | celticminstrel: most systems I've seen send button press events for the scrollwheel |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, each tick is "it's moved this way" |
| 02:45 | <@celticminstrel> | himi-cat: I think SDL does that, yeah. |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | As a pulse |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | SDL is generally mimicking the HID signals |
| 02:45 | <@celticminstrel> | "great form factor"? |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | Anyway |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | Ergonomics? |
| 02:45 | <@celticminstrel> | Meaning you like my mouse? :P |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | It looks comfortable to use. |
| 02:45 | <&Derakon> | I have a trackball at work; I just map two of the buttons to scroll down/up. |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | The wiki article on "Joystick" shows a PoV hat |
| 02:46 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, I guess it's comfortable. |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | It's a D-Pad but with a rubber pyramid on top so you can more easily thumb it a specific way blindly (since your thumb is usually on some other button) |
| 02:46 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh, I have a joystick very similar to this in the basement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Atari_XE_joystick.jpg |
| 02:47 | <@celticminstrel> | I don't think it has ever been used. |
| 02:47 | < himi-cat> | Most modern joysticks include many different axes, presented as sliders or hats or similar |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | Sliders are axes |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | There's a horribly broken thing in the way the old input models handle modern gamepads |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | That's the one major breakage I'm aware of |
| 02:47 | < himi-cat> | D-pads generally present as two axes that switch between full positive/neutral/full negative |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | Pressure sensitive buttons come in pairs and are treated as an axis |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | That is no longer true |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | D-pads more often than not present as POV hats, which are bitmasks |
| 02:48 | < himi-cat> | Huh |
| 02:48 | < himi-cat> | I haven't seen that |
| 02:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm not sure why they don't present as button sets |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | USB HID guidelines, I suppose. |
| 02:49 | <@celticminstrel> | Hat is the green thing in the Wikipedia diagram? |
| 02:49 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, older input libraries (including both SDL and DirectInput) fuck up modern gamepads, and specifically the X360 LT and RT. |
| 02:49 | < himi-cat> | TF: I think it's because they're assumed to be integrated controls |
| 02:49 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: Yeah |
| 02:49 | <&McMartin> | (In particular, they read LT and RT both fully pressed as being "neither is pressed at all") |
| 02:49 | < himi-cat> | Separate buttons would be confusing, whereas axes clearly indicate the `interrelation |
| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | XInput fixes this |
| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | I'm not fully sure what it does different, and if it's something other systems can replicate |
| 02:50 | <@celticminstrel> | I'd say WHEEL_UP and WHEEL_DOWN are not a good way of handling the scroll wheel, either. |
| 02:51 | < himi-cat> | celticminstrel: to handle it differently you'd need to have a different event type |
| 02:51 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, a MouseScrollEvent or somesuch. |
| 02:51 | < himi-cat> | On top of the position/button mask events already there |
| 02:51 | <@celticminstrel> | With an integer. |
| 02:52 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, I suppose it doesn't need to be an integer. Could be floating-point. |
| 02:52 | <@celticminstrel> | Just, not a boolean. |
| 02:52 | < himi-cat> | My point is that supporting it that way would be significantly harder, hence the decision to just use button events |
| 02:53 | <@celticminstrel> | So basically, they're lazy. :P |
| 02:53 | < himi-cat> | Also, given that the wheel /detects/ motion in a quantised fashion, I don't know that presenting it that way is too much of a problem |
| 02:53 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: You don't want to have to upgrade every application ever written to use a slight mouse upgrade. |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | If apps know about N-button mice but not scroll wheels, they will accept scroll wheels with no code changes if scroll wheel events are button presses. |
| 02:54 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, I think my scroll wheel does indeed detect it in a "quantized" fashion, but Mighty Mouse ... might not... |
| 02:54 | < himi-cat> | And you can add support for things like 2D scrolling very easily |
| 02:54 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah, I guess there's a point there, McM. |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | And, well, N-button mice came before the 1-button mouse :D |
| 02:55 | <&McMartin> | Because prototypes are always ridiculous |
| 02:55 | < himi-cat> | celticminstrel: they're digital sensors - the mighty mouse is just a tiny trackball that presents as a scroll wheel |
| 02:55 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, it's essentially a trackball. |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | Hm |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | That shouldn't be a button for the "full" effect |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | That should be like a secondary mouse pointer |
| 02:56 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | Because it should be able to handle the "throw" gesture, which a scroll wheel need not do. |
| 02:56 | < himi-cat> | Hm |
| 02:56 | < himi-cat> | An accelerator applied to the main pointer |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | No, not like that |
| 02:57 | < himi-cat> | I'd hate to try and figure out a sane way to handle that in apps |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | Like two mice plugged in at once |
| 02:57 | < himi-cat> | Yeah, I was suggesting a slightly different model |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | (Two mice plugged in at once, or conceptually that, anyway, is one of the few paradigm shifts in the past 10 years. SDL2 has stuff for it) |
| 02:58 | < himi-cat> | McMartin: that would be /nice/ |
| 02:58 | <@celticminstrel> | Will SDL2 ever be officially released? :P |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | Apparently the reference library for this is called "ManyMouse" |
| 02:58 | < himi-cat> | There are ways to handle it, but it's a pain |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: I'm going to be a dick: "Probably once Steam for Linux leaves beta" |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | I am strongly suspecting Valve's driving SDL2 development now |
| 02:58 | <@celticminstrel> | Really? |
| 02:59 | < himi-cat> | McMartin: there are much worse people who could be doing it |
| 02:59 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, Valve is okay. |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | This whole conversation started with me noticing that Sam Latinga, SDL's principal architect, joined Valve back in July |
| 02:59 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 03:00 | <@celticminstrel> | But why would Valve be interested in SDL2? |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | And, well, Linux Source is clearly using SDL 2.0 |
| 03:00 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
| 03:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Because - as also noted earlier - they are using it for their Linux port of the Source engine |
| 03:00 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 03:00 | <@celticminstrel> | Source us the HL2 engine? |
| 03:00 | <@celticminstrel> | ^is |
| 03:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 03:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also the TF2 engine, L4D engine, Portal engine, and a bunch of others. |
| 03:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | (it's actually L4D2 and TF2 they're porting first, IIRC) |
| 03:01 | | * celticminstrel only knows it from Portal. :P |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | No Linux Portal yet |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | Steam Linux Open Beta is rumored to start on Monday |
| 03:01 | | * celticminstrel doesn't need Linux Steam... |
| 03:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | I don't need it but I sure want it~ |
| 03:01 | <@celticminstrel> | Do Beta users get a free game like they did for Mac Open Beta? |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | Well, the Open Beta hasn't started yet |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | The closed beta users didn't. |
| 03:02 | <@celticminstrel> | (That's how I got Portal. :D ) |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | They "got" TF2, which is F2P. |
| 03:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, that one doesn't count... |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | The earliest closed beta seems to have been L4D2, but that was a timebombed subscription, that went away just as I got invited |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | However, a bunch of stuff is pre-available on it, which wasn't true for the Mac. |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | Steam Play took awhile to get off the ground, but about 30 games Just Work if you have them. |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | And several dozen more pretend to but don't have anything to install. =P |
| 03:03 | <@celticminstrel> | XD |
| 03:04 | <&McMartin> | So, the Seriously Big Deal for me is that Trine 2 works, becuase I didn't have access to it on Linux any other way |
| 03:04 | <&McMartin> | All the other Linux Steam games I can unlock I can also unlock via Humble Bundles. |
| 03:04 | <&McMartin> | Hmm. I guess except for the Introversion games, but I *could* have, there. |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | And not all the HIB games are up to speed yet |
| 03:05 | | * McMartin foot-taps very impatiently at FTL. |
| 03:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | What's wrong with FTL? I've had no problem running it on linux. |
| 03:05 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm vaguely annoyed that Braid mods don't seem to work on Mac. |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | Oh. FTL runs fine |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | But it's one of the ones that pretends to link to Steam but has nothing to download |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | So I have to do manual save-juggling if I want to mess with it. |
| 03:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | (I don't know if FTL for Steam has cloud support, actually; does it?) |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | (Frozen Synapse didn't, so I gain little from the Steam integration other than "it manages my MP keys for me") |
| 03:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | (no idea, I've never actually played it on windows) |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | I have NightSky, Jamestown, RUNNER, Bastion, and FTL installed "loose" on this system |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | And I don't like "loose" blobs on Linux, so having Steam quarantine them is a plus in my book, etc. |
| 03:07 | | * ToxicFrog nods |
| 03:09 | <@celticminstrel> | I think I could get a Braid mod to work if I had package{,0}.zip, though... |
| 03:10 | | * celticminstrel surmises that VVVVVV does not have cloud support, as that would explain why I lost my saves (at least, the second time it happened). |
| 03:10 | <&McMartin> | Yeah the first time was the migration from Flash to Real Application |
| 03:10 | <@celticminstrel> | Well... "lost". I think they're still there on the other hard drive. |
| 03:11 | <@celticminstrel> | For some reason the Mac Steam Braid has package{,0}.hha instead of package{,0}.zip. |
| 03:11 | <@celticminstrel> | Which I can't open. |
| 03:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Not sure whether that applies to all Steam versions of Braid, or all Mac versions, or just the intersection. |
| 03:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | What does file say they are? |
| 03:17 | <@celticminstrel> | data |
| 03:17 | <@celticminstrel> | In other words, nothing useful. |
| 03:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | What's dd if=package.haa bs=1 count=4 | od -tx1 ? |
| 03:18 | <@celticminstrel> | ... |
| 03:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | What? |
| 03:20 | <@celticminstrel> | 4+0 records in \ 4+0 records out \ 4 bytes transferred in 0.008472 secs (472 bytes/sec) \ 0000000 4f f3 2f ac \ 0000004 |
| 03:20 | <@celticminstrel> | \ is newline |
| 03:21 | <@celticminstrel> | I have no idea what that does/means, though. |
| 03:21 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. |
| 03:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | That's the first four bytes of the file in hex |
| 03:21 | <&McMartin> | OK, SDL Framebuffer fullscreen mode isn't as horribly wrecked as I feared it would be. |
| 03:21 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 03:22 | <@celticminstrel> | (It's .hha by the way.) |
| 03:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which is O<F3>/<AC>, which is not actually useful to me |
| 03:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | (sometimes it's something really obvious) |
| 03:22 | <@celticminstrel> | Mm. |
| 03:23 | <&McMartin> | Hooray for IFF~ |
| 03:23 | <@celticminstrel> | Googling "hha file" brings up pages saying that hha normally indicates "HyperHub Archive". |
| 03:24 | <@celticminstrel> | But I dunno if that can be relied on. |
| 03:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Incidentally, the windows!steam version uses .zip |
| 03:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, that's helpful. |
| 03:25 | <@celticminstrel> | So in theory I could boot to Windows, download Braid, boot back to Mac, and copy over. |
| 03:26 | <@celticminstrel> | But do I want to do that right now... >_> |
| 03:27 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm wondering why on earth the Mac version is different in this respect, though. |
| 03:41 | | thalass_ [thalass@Nightstar-724ec5eb.bigpond.net.au] has joined #code |
| 03:47 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-724ec5eb.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 03:48 | | Syloq [Syloq@NetworkAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 04:05 | | Syloq [Syloq@NetworkAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 04:05 | | mode/#code [+o Syloq] by ChanServ |
| 04:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Quite cool: http://offbeatfamilies.com/2012/12/teaching-kids-to-program |
| 04:30 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Program Shutting down] |
| 04:40 | | thalass_ is now known as Thalass|afk |
| 04:50 | <@Alek> | the rest of the site can be nsfw. |
| 05:02 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 05:18 | <@celticminstrel> | Why is Firefox ignoring my height: and max-height: specification... |
| 05:29 | <@celticminstrel> | No matter what I do, it refuses to reduce the height of these table cells below 36 pixels. |
| 05:33 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-724ec5eb.bigpond.net.au] has joined #code |
| 05:35 | <&Derakon> | The contents of the cell may be forcing its size. |
| 05:36 | <&Derakon> | IIRC you can make things bigger, but you can't make them smaller than their contents. |
| 05:38 | <@celticminstrel> | But the contents are exactly 32 pixels tall, which is also the height I'm trying to set... |
| 05:39 | <&McMartin> | Padding/margin/border nailing you, maybe? |
| 05:39 | <@celticminstrel> | Besides which, making things smaller than their contents is supposed to be possible. |
| 05:39 | <@celticminstrel> | McMartin: Not padding; even with padding to 0 I get the same result. Margins are also 0 at the moment. |
| 05:39 | <@celticminstrel> | Border is 1px. |
| 05:40 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-724ec5eb.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 05:46 | <@celticminstrel> | For what it's worth, Chrome does the same thing. |
| 05:57 | <@celticminstrel> | Apparently it's because it's a table. Blegh. |
| 06:01 | < Syk> | celticminstrel: border-collapse? |
| 06:01 | < Syk> | celticminstrel: tables can be exactly set |
| 06:01 | < Syk> | are you setting the max-height or the actual height |
| 06:01 | < Syk> | because max-height isn't respected in tables iirc |
| 06:01 | <@celticminstrel> | No, apparently there's some rule that a user agent is supposed to ignore the height if the content doesn't fit (which isn't actually the case here, but whatever). |
| 06:01 | <@celticminstrel> | I tried both. |
| 06:01 | < Syk> | hm |
| 06:02 | <@celticminstrel> | This is table cells, not tables. |
| 06:02 | < Syk> | you could set the content to be position: absolute |
| 06:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Since the content is just an image, I'm going to try making it a background image. |
| 06:02 | < Syk> | so therefore it has no 'height' or 'width' in content matters |
| 06:02 | < Syk> | because it's absolute it doesnt affect other objects |
| 06:02 | < Syk> | celticminstrel: wait |
| 06:03 | < Syk> | celticminstrel: why don't you just set background-image: url('/image.png'); |
| 06:03 | <@celticminstrel> | That's what I just said... |
| 06:03 | < Syk> | oh |
| 06:03 | < Syk> | i thought you meant on the page |
| 06:03 | < Syk> | not in the table |
| 06:03 | < Syk> | LOL i need my coffee and some reading comprehension |
| 06:07 | <@celticminstrel> | Now trying to write jquery to transfer stuff from one attribute to another... |
| 06:13 | | AbuDhabi [annodomini@Nightstar-be32adc8.80-203-17.nextgentel.com] has joined #code |
| 06:15 | | mac [mac@Nightstar-fe8a1f12.il.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 06:17 | <@celticminstrel> | Solution turns out to be iterating through the jquery collection. |
| 06:31 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 06:59 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-e83b3651.cable.rogers.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 07:13 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 08:57 | | AbuDhabi [annodomini@Nightstar-be32adc8.80-203-17.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 10:10 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 12:30 | | Thalass|afk is now known as Thalass|mmmmovie |
| 12:47 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 13:18 | | AbuDhabi [annodomini@Nightstar-a1e3cdeb.89.getinternet.no] has joined #code |
| 13:40 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 14:01 | < ErikMesoy> | The fine line between stupidly simple and just stupid: My father has gotten IP conflicts and some flavors of internet errors on his machine that I have been fixing for a while, and now I have attempted to make an idiot-resistent solution that resides on his desktop for easy fixing. |
| 14:02 | < ErikMesoy> | It's a batch file called "fix_IP.bat" that runs ipconfig /release, then ipconfig /renew. |
| 14:02 | < ErikMesoy> | My father proposed that it be called "Make wonderful things happen". |
| 14:02 | < ErikMesoy> | I objected that this was too generic. |
| 14:03 | <@TheWatcher> | And entirely too likely to invite additional feature requests |
| 14:05 | < ErikMesoy> | If it solves his problem. Now I don't know which way to hope. |
| 14:14 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 15:09 | < Xon> | ErikMesoy, how the heck does that happen. DHCP isn't exactly rocket science |
| 15:09 | < Xon> | (aka sleect the checkbox and the IP range in a router) |
| 15:10 | < ErikMesoy> | Xon: Putting the machine to sleep while connected may have been a factor. On waking it attempts to reacquire an address that was taken by something else in the meantime. |
| 15:11 | < Xon> | increase the lease time to something sane? |
| 15:11 | < Xon> | I just make static reservations for everything in DHCP =p |
| 15:13 | < ErikMesoy> | Maaaybe. There are limits to how much I will poke into the details when the problem might have been solved by telling him to click this icon whenever he has internet problem. :p |
| 15:13 | < ErikMesoy> | (The batch file lies on his desktop now.) |
| 15:15 | <&jerith> | ErikMesoy: That's a workaround, not a fix. |
| 15:16 | <&jerith> | (Giving his machine a static assignment on the router's a much better solution.) |
| 15:19 | < ErikMesoy> | It had a static assignment, actually. |
| 15:19 | < ErikMesoy> | Now it has dynamic and bat. |
| 15:19 | < ErikMesoy> | I figure something else on the network may have been dynamic? |
| 15:23 | <&jerith> | Static on the host or static on the router? |
| 15:24 | < ErikMesoy> | The settings on my father's computer. |
| 15:24 | < ErikMesoy> | I did not touch the router. |
| 15:24 | | Thalass|mmmmovie is now known as Thalass |
| 15:35 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-e83b3651.cable.rogers.com] has joined #code |
| 15:35 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 15:45 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 15:51 | | Thalass is now known as Thalass|slep |
| 16:07 | | VirusJTG_ [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 16:07 | | VirusHome [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 16:10 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 16:10 | | Pandemic [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 16:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyone here used PyGlet before? |
| 16:21 | <@froztbyte> | http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=35469999#post35469999 --- samsung is not good at this |
| 16:25 | <@Tamber> | ...oh dear. |
| 16:37 | | VirusJTG_ [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Program Shutting down] |
| 16:37 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 16:38 | | VirusHome [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: shutting down!] |
| 16:39 | | Pandemic [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 16:39 | | mode/#code [+o Pandemic] by ChanServ |
| 16:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: if anyone here has, it'll be Vorn or McM, I think |
| 16:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: really, this should be set up with everything dynamic on itself, and stuff that needs a fixed IP static on the router. |
| 16:51 | < Syk> | froztbyte: AHAHAHAHHAHA |
| 16:53 | | * TheWatcher eyes that vuln, facepalms |
| 17:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa |
| 17:23 | <@celticminstrel> | Um. I just got a popup saying "Java 7 update 10 is available! You have Java 7 update 10! Do you want to update?" |
| 17:28 | <@froztbyte> | microversions are awesome |
| 17:39 | <@gnolam> | ToxicFrog: ? |
| 17:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | gnolam: froztbyte's link. |
| 17:52 | | Syk is now known as syksleep |
| 17:53 | | iospace is now known as io\PACKERS |
| 18:07 | | shawn-p1 [Shawn@Nightstar-4db8c1df.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 20:05 | | 459AACREO [lindy@F67919.B1A083.CE85B9.36B89F] has joined #code |
| 20:15 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:43 | | 459AACREO [lindy@F67919.B1A083.CE85B9.36B89F] has quit [[NS] Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] |
| 20:47 | | mac [mac@Nightstar-fe8a1f12.il.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 21:32 | | io\PACKERS is now known as iospace |
| 21:36 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 21:48 | | Reiv [NSwebIRC@A3BDC3.5BE3EC.B8847E.5ADB9D] has joined #code |
| 21:48 | | mode/#code [+o Reiv] by ChanServ |
| 23:17 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:21 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 23:47 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-5c0fce37.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:49 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-5c0fce37.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #code |
| --- Log closed Mon Dec 17 00:00:00 2012 |