| --- Log opened Wed Oct 31 00:00:31 2012 |
| 00:05 | < Tarinaky> | It turns out trying to get your head around making some code concurrent/changing your model of the code's opperation is not the best thing to do the evening before you go out. |
| 00:05 | <~Vornicus> | Probably not. |
| 00:06 | < Tarinaky> | It's either that or everyone who went to that party was terminally dull. |
| 00:06 | < Tarinaky> | Possibly the latter. |
| 00:14 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
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| 00:32 | | * Vornicus turns off fullscreen for a while anyway, has experiments to run. |
| 00:39 | | * Derakon eyes https://plus.google.com/105201233571140699617/posts/1QhcnQizuPc |
| 00:41 | <~Vornicus> | Wow, seriously |
| 01:02 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:06 | | * Vornicus fiddles with random object placement |
| 01:33 | <&McMartin> | The quoted "unusual way" error is what I expect to see from "uncaught C++ exception" |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | Oh, but that's not the one you got |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | Exiting with an unusual process code should not pop dialog boxes. |
| 01:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | Everything except Results proofed and reffed. |
| 01:52 | <~Vornicus> | I didn't think it should either. |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | If you can run it in WinDbg and get a working error trace... |
| 02:22 | | syksleep is now known as Syk |
| 02:46 | <~Vornicus> | Okay, overthinking this. |
| 03:04 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 03:05 | <~Vornicus> | Just start iwth a random distribution. Then we'll see how it goes. |
| 03:26 | | * Derakon eyes his console. |
| 03:26 | <&Derakon> | I'm getting error spam in my logs: "sandboxd[86729]: sshd(86753) deny mach-per-user-lookup" |
| 03:26 | <&Derakon> | Is someone trying to log onto my computer? |
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| 03:51 | <~Vornicus> | Looks like. |
| 05:19 | | * McMartin hears more complaints about QQ, decides he is not wrong to stick with the LTS. |
| 05:22 | | * McMartin shoots a man in Reno just to a^2 cos(2 phi) |
| 05:22 | <&Derakon> | QQ/LTS? |
| 05:22 | <&McMartin> | QQ: Ubuntu 12.10, Quantal Quetzal |
| 05:23 | <&McMartin> | LTS: Ubuntu 12.04 Long Term Support |
| 05:23 | <&Derakon> | Ahh, the release for people who don't want their OS changing out from under them every month? |
| 05:23 | <&McMartin> | s/every month/twice a year/ |
| 05:24 | <&McMartin> | BUt yes |
| 05:38 | <@Syk> | QQ is pretty good with GNOME3.6 |
| 05:38 | <@Syk> | haven't had any notable problems that aren't from buying an uncommon laptop with non-standard media keys |
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| 09:49 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: iospace, Attilla, @Derakon[AFK], @Reiver, @AnnoDomini, Orthia, @froztbyte, @Vornicus, celticminstrel, @PinkFreud, (+12 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) |
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| 09:50 | <@Azash> | What's everyone working on today then? |
| 09:50 | <@Syk> | i am working on a reminder app |
| 09:50 | <@Azash> | Ooh? |
| 09:50 | <@Syk> | that takes 2 things - time and location, both optional |
| 09:51 | <@Syk> | so you can say, remind me to do x in 20 minutes |
| 09:51 | <@Syk> | or remind me to get milk at the shops |
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| 09:51 | <@Syk> | and it recognises 'the shops' and uses GPS to pop it up when you're at the location |
| 09:52 | <@Syk> | so then you get there, phone beeps, gives you a list of things you had to do/get at the location |
| 09:52 | <@Azash> | Oh, that's nice |
| 09:52 | <@Azash> | Especially recognizing things like the shops |
| 09:52 | <@Syk> | i'm not sure how to tackle that yet |
| 09:52 | <@Syk> | i am going to probably go with coords + radius |
| 09:53 | <@Azash> | See the gmaps API? |
| 09:53 | <@Syk> | because where i live, the 'shops' are easy - there's 2 |
| 09:53 | <@Syk> | but i don't want it to pop up everywhere that's a store |
| 09:53 | <@Syk> | but what if people go to a different shops? |
| 09:53 | <@Syk> | so yeah |
| 09:53 | <@Syk> | the radius will be like - so for me, i might make a reminder list for things to do in perth |
| 09:53 | <@Azash> | Just make it give a small beep once per store or so |
| 09:53 | <@Syk> | and then just mark Perth |
| 09:53 | <@Azash> | The annoyance will be minimal |
| 09:54 | <@Syk> | and give it a giant friggin radius |
| 09:56 | | * Azash wonders if there are good speech recognition libraries for android |
| 09:57 | <@Syk> | Azash: already done |
| 09:57 | <@Syk> | it's like five lines to hook into the official Google one |
| 09:57 | <@Azash> | Nice |
| 09:58 | <@Syk> | like, the one that Voice Search and Google Now use |
| 09:58 | | * Azash nods, is not a smartphone user |
| 09:58 | <@Syk> | i am 'recognising' language using primitive regexps |
| 09:58 | <@Syk> | but... y'know |
| 09:58 | <@Syk> | there's not a lot of phrases that i have to support |
| 09:59 | <@Syk> | and i can always improve it later |
| 09:59 | <@Azash> | How about this? |
| 10:00 | <@Azash> | Take a voice command, save it, give it to google maps as a search term, save locations that you get, then when you get near one give a beep and print the reminder on screen |
| 10:01 | | * Azash has to go, waves |
| 10:04 | <@Syk> | byez |
| 10:06 | <@Azash> | And back, turns out I was too early |
| 10:06 | <@Syk> | lol |
| 10:06 | <@Syk> | Azash: hmm, yeah, google maps looks like it could do it |
| 10:10 | <@Azash> | I volunteered to vet a friend's website, before finding out that he removed all formatting from the JS "for obfuscation" |
| 10:20 | <@Syk> | ...wut |
| 10:21 | <@Azash> | Beats me but I've spent a while now re-formatting it :P |
| 10:28 | <@Syk> | Azash: doesn't firebug have an autoformat command? |
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| 12:14 | <@Azash> | Syk: Huh, I didn't think of that |
| 12:14 | | * Azash hides his face |
| 12:16 | | * Azash hrms at not figuring out how to bypass a login |
| 12:39 | < Attilla> | when i hear hrm all i think of is rorschach |
| 13:03 | < Tarinaky> | Okay. Question about Java synchronization. If I leave (simple) getters as unsynchronized - this will work, yes? |
| 13:03 | < Tarinaky> | I mean - the values are guarenteed to be non-null. They just might not be the most instantaneously up to date. |
| 13:04 | <@Syk> | wtf i think i need more coffee |
| 13:04 | < Tarinaky> | And threads will automatically flush their caches when they die... |
| 13:04 | <@Syk> | when i read 'java synchronisation' my mind went to synchronised swimming in coffee |
| 13:04 | <@Syk> | seriously wtf |
| 13:04 | < Tarinaky> | So for some simple getters that just return the value it doesn't matter a whole lot right? |
| 13:04 | < celticminstrel> | I should think it'd be fine? |
| 13:04 | < gnolam> | Tarinaky: yes. |
| 13:04 | < celticminstrel> | There's probably some case where it wouldn't, but generally... |
| 13:04 | <@Syk> | uhh, dont know exactly here |
| 13:05 | <@Syk> | but it would get whatever it would have the most recent of |
| 13:05 | <@Syk> | because unless it holds the object per threaad |
| 13:05 | <@Syk> | there is no 'old' value, there's the current value that happens to not have been updated yet |
| 13:05 | <@Namegduf> | Tarinaky: Short answer is "no". |
| 13:05 | <@Namegduf> | Longer answer is "maybe if you examine all the provisos" |
| 13:06 | < Tarinaky> | Nah, it's shared state. At the moment I'm only synchronizing the methods that either 'write' to the state, or do funky things with temporary variables. |
| 13:06 | <@Namegduf> | Non-volatile stuff is not guaranteed to be observed updated *ever*. |
| 13:06 | < Tarinaky> | Observed updated? |
| 13:06 | <@Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 13:06 | < Tarinaky> | What does that mean? |
| 13:07 | <@Namegduf> | One thread can write to something, then another thread read it, and the second thread is not guaranteed to see what was written. |
| 13:07 | <@Namegduf> | Processor caching, reordering of operations, removal of redundant reads... |
| 13:07 | <@Syk> | ...how does that w- oh |
| 13:07 | < Tarinaky> | Even though the threads have limited life spans/terminate? |
| 13:07 | <@Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 13:08 | <@Namegduf> | Not an issue if synchronised. |
| 13:08 | < Tarinaky> | That's a bit funky. |
| 13:08 | <@Namegduf> | Also potentially not an issue if the value is volatile. |
| 13:08 | <@Namegduf> | You need to worry about two things, atomicity and visibility of changes |
| 13:08 | <@Namegduf> | For a single reference, being read and returned, atomicity is fine |
| 13:08 | < Tarinaky> | My understanding though is that volatile makes the changes visible immediately. |
| 13:08 | < Tarinaky> | Which is unneccesary. |
| 13:09 | <@Namegduf> | And non-volatile doesn't guarantee it is visible *ever*. |
| 13:09 | < Tarinaky> | Is there some middle ground? |
| 13:09 | <@Namegduf> | No. Just use volatile. |
| 13:09 | < Tarinaky> | Like you can call Java's garbage collector explicitly. |
| 13:10 | <@Syk> | maybe related book? http://kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/paulmck/perfbook/perfbook.html |
| 13:11 | < Tarinaky> | Syk: Trying to get my head around behavior in Java specifically, not generally. |
| 13:14 | < Tarinaky> | Wait. Hang on. |
| 13:15 | <@Namegduf> | Tarinaky: Intuitively, it is either allowed to optimise out reads or it isn't. |
| 13:15 | <@Namegduf> | Tarinaky: Volatile is "it isn't" |
| 13:15 | < Tarinaky> | The synchronized blocks will flush changes at the end of ther synchronized block right? |
| 13:15 | <@Namegduf> | I am not aware of any portable guarantees of such. |
| 13:15 | <@Namegduf> | On x86, probably yes. |
| 13:16 | <@Namegduf> | But even that might not guarantee anything in particular because that won't help if the other thread has optimised out the read. |
| 13:17 | < Tarinaky> | But doesn't that require the thread to have read a variable at least once already? |
| 13:17 | <@Namegduf> | No. |
| 13:17 | <@Namegduf> | Just set it as volatile. |
| 13:17 | < Tarinaky> | Okay :( |
| 13:18 | <@Namegduf> | When it comes to threading, you can't assume things are okay until proven otherwise. |
| 13:18 | <@Namegduf> | You need to access nothing until you've proven it is safe to do so. And that is complex. |
| 13:19 | <@Namegduf> | Otherwise you just introduce subtle bugs, code which works on some platforms but not others... |
| 13:19 | <@Namegduf> | It's a rough environment and you need to worry about a lot of the transparent tricks and optimisations stopping being quite so transparent. |
| 13:21 | < Tarinaky> | Immutables are generally thread-safe right? |
| 13:21 | < Tarinaky> | Since you can't do a whole lot -to- it. |
| 13:21 | <@Namegduf> | Consts have to be. |
| 13:22 | <@Namegduf> | Stuff set only at construction time? |
| 13:22 | < Tarinaky> | java.lang.String. |
| 13:23 | <@Namegduf> | Well, you can't get concurrent writes conflicting, and don't have to worry about visibility of changes. |
| 13:24 | <@Namegduf> | I don't know about things like accessing the string and failing to observe things set in memory when it was constructed. |
| 13:25 | < Tarinaky> | If the handle to it is volatile, from what I understand, the JVM updates the thing the handle points to as well... |
| 13:25 | < Tarinaky> | I think. |
| 13:27 | <@Namegduf> | It might well work out safe in practice but you'd need to go look up what the actual specific guarantees of the Java memory model are. |
| 13:27 | <@Namegduf> | And show that they proved it safe. |
| 13:28 | < Tarinaky> | The trouble is... There're a lot of people on the internet who don't know either >.< |
| 13:28 | <@Namegduf> | Then you need to not do it or go read the formal documentation Java has for this. |
| 13:32 | < Tarinaky> | Pfft, where's that? |
| 13:32 | < Tarinaky> | The online thing only implies that Immutables are dandy. |
| 13:33 | < Tarinaky> | Crap. I'm late for my meeting. |
| 13:35 | < celticminstrel> | [Oct 31@09:09:46am] Tarinaky: Like you can call Java's garbage collector explicitly. |
| 13:35 | < celticminstrel> | But it's like declaring something "register" in C. It may be ignored by the JVM. |
| 13:36 | < celticminstrel> | Volatile just disables some optimizations that assume the variable has not changed. |
| 13:36 | < gnolam> | ... in other words, like /volatile/ in C. |
| 13:36 | < gnolam> | ;) |
| 13:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | <Tarinaky> The synchronized blocks will flush changes at the end of ther synchronized block right? |
| 13:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | <Namegduf> I am not aware of any portable guarantees of such. |
| 13:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | <Namegduf> On x86, probably yes. |
| 13:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is untrue. The whole point of the JVM is that it is portable, and it is required to sync changes with main memory and other threads/caches upon entering and leaving the synchronized block. |
| 13:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you have a JVM that does not do this, report it as a bug. |
| 13:38 | <@Namegduf> | ToxicFrog: Even if the other thing accessing the memory is not using a synchronised block? |
| 13:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...mu |
| 13:38 | <@Namegduf> | ToxicFrog: That was the scenario we were talking about. |
| 13:39 | <@Namegduf> | I could believe it guaranteeing it, but I'm not aware of any such guarantee and you need to check first. "It'd be real convenient so I'm going to assume it works" engineering doesn't work with threading. |
| 13:39 | <@Namegduf> | So that's what I said. |
| 13:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Namegduf: Java specification, 17.9 |
| 13:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Even with context, I can't read what you said as anything other than a reply to "synchronized blocks will flush changes at the end of the block?" |
| 13:44 | <@Namegduf> | ToxicFrog: The context was, "Can I leave synchronised off if it is only a getter?" |
| 13:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes. I know. |
| 13:46 | <@Namegduf> | What I said was a reply to that. It was also a perfectly valid reply to that. |
| 13:46 | <@Namegduf> | You seem to be conflating "not aware of" with "there definitely isn't any" |
| 13:47 | <@Namegduf> | And missing the part where flushing changes to memory is not essentially enough to make it safe because things can elide reads |
| 13:48 | <@Namegduf> | Which was the other half of that response |
| 13:48 | <@Namegduf> | Memory model guarantees are complex and I definitely don't know them all. |
| 13:49 | | * ToxicFrog nods |
| 13:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm not saying it's sufficient, just that it's guaranteed. |
| 13:57 | < Pandemic> | is it too much to ask that a tech working for a domain registrar be able to tell me what the authoritiative server for a domain registered with them is? |
| 13:57 | < Pandemic> | is it too much to ask that they understand what the hell a stub doomain is? |
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| 14:15 | | * Pandemic head desks |
| 14:15 | | * Pandemic starts the domain transfer proceedure |
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| 20:41 | | * Derakon ponders the digital delay generator. |
| 20:41 | <&Derakon> | Damned thing's throwing a monkey wrench into my experiment setup. |
| 20:42 | <&Derakon> | The DDG is a signal source that can be triggered by another signal source. It has to be preprogrammed; when it is triggered, it then executes its program. |
| 20:42 | <&Derakon> | Our "programs" are trivially simple right now -- consisting of just triggering a line for a very brief period, so we can send microsecond-resolution light pulses. |
| 20:42 | | * AnnoDomini ponders captcha-defeating OCR. |
| 20:43 | <&Derakon> | But this basically means that we have a light source whose exposue time cannot be varied in the middle of an experiment. |
| 20:43 | <&Derakon> | Because the entire experiment is handled by the DSP, while changing the exposure time must be handled in software. |
| 20:45 | <&Derakon> | I could inject a "set digital delay generator exposure time" action into the event stream for the experiment; that would chop the experiment into multiple parts... |
| 20:45 | <&Derakon> | It would be ruinous for experiments where we only ever need one exposure time though. |
| 20:47 | <&Derakon> | I could modify the experiment workflow so that devices would be allowed to investigate the experiment event stream and preset themselves -- not a bad idea in general, that. |
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| 21:06 | < AnnoDomini> | Is there a bash script or something that lets one easily move the mouse cursor in a predefined pattern (like AHK or something for Windows)? |
| 21:08 | <&Derakon> | Bash and most commandline tools won't even be aware that you have a GUI. |
| 21:08 | <&Derakon> | There might be some portion of the windowing system that could be scripted though. *shrug* |
| 21:26 | <@froztbyte> | AnnoDomini: xdotool |
| 21:26 | <@froztbyte> | can be used to query X, and move stuff around |
| 21:26 | <@froztbyte> | it's a bit of a schlep for manual use |
| 21:27 | <@froztbyte> | but I know it exists and works |
| 21:27 | <@froztbyte> | you may be able to find something more refined from that starting point |
| 21:28 | <@froztbyte> | https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/149824_423630051025340_62 6062360_n.jpg is relevant |
| 21:28 | <@froztbyte> | (just in general) |
| 21:34 | < gnolam> | See, the "share if you get it" line makes sure I'll never share it. :P |
| 21:37 | <@Azash> | This is probably a silly question, but |
| 21:37 | <@Azash> | The algorithm in ex. 4 here http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/karvi/adv-harj1_12.pdf |
| 21:37 | <@Azash> | Couldn't you just easily do.. var foo = 1; for(i = 1 to b) foo = (foo * b) mod n |
| 21:37 | <@Azash> | Sorry. var foo = 1; for(i = 1 to b) foo = (foo * a) mod n |
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| 21:40 | <&Derakon> | Azash: the point would appear to be to avoid difficult operations as much as possible. |
| 21:41 | <&Derakon> | Though I can't claim that the stated algorithm is necessarily faster without having a profiler handy. |
| 21:41 | <&Derakon> | (And even then in practice you generally leave this kind of thing to the compiler, though it's still handy to understand) |
| 21:43 | <@Azash> | Mm, was just generally curious as this seems like a bit more contrived solution that is unlikely to offer a lot of benefit |
| 21:47 | <@Azash> | Also, what on earth does the c variable do in it? |
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| 22:06 | < iospace> | oh what the hell |
| 22:06 | < iospace> | the parameter is a fucking void * |
| 22:07 | < iospace> | how are you saying what i'm passing is invalid! |
| 22:07 | < celticminstrel> | What for? |
| 22:07 | < celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 22:07 | < celticminstrel> | What's saying it's invalid? |
| 22:07 | < celticminstrel> | Compiler? |
| 22:07 | < iospace> | yes |
| 22:07 | < iospace> | parameter mismatch |
| 22:07 | < celticminstrel> | Maybe you're passing a const void*? |
| 22:08 | < iospace> | i'm not |
| 22:08 | < celticminstrel> | What are you passing exactly? |
| 22:09 | < iospace> | NDA |
| 22:09 | < iospace> | :< |
| 22:09 | < iospace> | well, pointer to an int |
| 22:10 | < iospace> | fuck it, clean build |
| 22:11 | < celticminstrel> | Oh. I dunno then. |
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| 22:17 | < iospace> | i think i know what happened |
| 22:17 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 22:21 | < iospace> | hmm... another clean build is needed |
| 22:22 | <@Azash> | "Clean builds for everyone!" and other Oprah episodes that never worked out |
| 22:24 | < iospace> | heh |
| 22:25 | < iospace> | i changed some of the function names around so it didn't like it that much :< |
| 22:25 | < iospace> | got linker errors |
| 22:28 | < iospace> | derp |
| 22:28 | < iospace> | there we go ^^;; |
| 22:30 | < iospace> | yup, built |
| 22:30 | < iospace> | will it work? Probably not :D |
| 22:31 | | syksleep is now known as Syk |
| 23:21 | < gnolam> | ... oh, they're DOIs. Science Direct's (Elsevier's*spit spit spit* online repository) cryptic filenames suddenly make sense now. |
| 23:22 | < gnolam> | It'd still be better if they at least included the author's name somewhere though. |
| 23:40 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 23:43 | | * Vornicus pokes more at this. This function is becoming evil. |
| 23:43 | < celticminstrel> | Fun! |
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| 23:52 | | mode/#code [+ao McMartin McMartin] by ChanServ |
| --- Log closed Thu Nov 01 00:00:05 2012 |