| --- Log opened Wed Sep 26 00:00:23 2012 |
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| 11:40 | < froztbyte> | RichyB: I made a different assumption on where/what would be kept 'pristine' |
| 11:41 | < froztbyte> | but sure, I guess that does work |
| 11:41 | <@TheWatcher> | holyshit latency~ |
| 11:41 | | * RichyB blinks. |
| 11:42 | < RichyB> | Didn't that conversation happen two days ago? |
| 11:42 | < RichyB> | froztbyte: makes sense though, glad that's cleared up. |
| 11:43 | < froztbyte> | haha |
| 11:43 | < froztbyte> | sorry |
| 11:43 | <@TheWatcher> | About 31 houts, actually |
| 11:43 | <@TheWatcher> | *hours |
| 11:43 | < froztbyte> | I live very async |
| 11:43 | < froztbyte> | would've answered at home last night had my power not gone out |
| 11:44 | < froztbyte> | upside is I have a better guarantee delivery than TCP ;P |
| 11:45 | < simon_> | I'm writing a project description for a project in which I'm going to write a compiler for a reversible language |
| 11:46 | < simon_> | but my supervisor keeps striking my verbs! |
| 11:46 | < froztbyte> | 'ourobouros'? :) |
| 11:46 | < froztbyte> | mind you, glyph made that joke first |
| 11:47 | < simon_> | froztbyte, my former flatmate would sometimes respond to something I said the day before, as if there had only been a minor delay in conversation. |
| 11:47 | < froztbyte> | hehe, I see no problem in that :) |
| 11:48 | < froztbyte> | the other side of this is that because I have near-eidetic memory, in my mind I can pretty much just pick up where I left off |
| 11:48 | < simon_> | I didn't mind it either. :) we would have several interleaving discussions. it would sometimes be hard for others to understand a sudden switch of context, presumably because they missed a keyframe. |
| 11:48 | < froztbyte> | :D |
| 11:48 | < froztbyte> | mithrandi and I do that |
| 11:48 | < froztbyte> | passing over multiple weeks |
| 11:49 | < simon_> | I have a good memory in some cases. I remember how bent the hairs on my toothbrush are, so I can see how many times my girlfriend uses it, but I can't remember which side of the building I placed my bicycle. |
| 11:49 | < froztbyte> | haha |
| 11:52 | < RichyB> | I (feel like) I have close to no episodic memory. |
| 11:52 | < RichyB> | Continuing conversations from days ago isn't annoying, it's just really surprising. ? |
| 11:57 | < froztbyte> | haha |
| 11:57 | < froztbyte> | what client are you using that fills in ? for :) ? |
| 11:58 | < RichyB> | Just vanilla XChat. I actually hit "compose" ":" ")" and typed a ? |
| 11:58 | < froztbyte> | ah |
| 11:58 | < froztbyte> | not many people do that, so I typically assume auto-replace |
| 11:59 | < RichyB> | Saves one character at the end of every Tweet, if like me you can't resist appending emoji to everything. ? |
| 11:59 | < RichyB> | I ? my compose key. |
| 11:59 | < simon_> | I'm trying to understand the relation between quantum computing and reversible computing. it seems that for some reason, working with bijective functions within a theoretical quantum computer is a great thing, but I can't see why. I've tried to guess, but I don't like to put down guesses in a project description. |
| 11:59 | < froztbyte> | if it was anything like ? or such, that would immediately have me thinking compose :) |
| 11:59 | < simon_> | looking at Wikipedia's Reversible computing article, there are only vague references to quantum computers but no real description of why they are related. |
| 11:59 | < froztbyte> | simon_: call them assumptions and run with them |
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| 12:00 | < froztbyte> | "given the system we've constructed upon the following premises..." |
| 12:00 | < simon_> | heh |
| 12:00 | < simon_> | I'll try and read more about quantum computing. |
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| 18:17 | < AnnoDomini> | Is there a way to reconnect to a background terminal application? One that is still alive, but doesn't have any terminal for its output?\ |
| 18:17 | <&jerith> | AnnoDomini: How was it backgrounded? |
| 18:18 | <&jerith> | If you used "foo &", it'll be listed in "jobs" and you can "fg %1" or whatever. |
| 18:19 | < AnnoDomini> | I was playing nethack when suddenly I'm returned to terminal. The game still shows up with pgrep. |
| 18:19 | <&jerith> | Hrm. Did you hit ctrl+z or something? |
| 18:20 | < AnnoDomini> | Doubtful. I was in the middle of writing "#dip". |
| 18:21 | < AnnoDomini> | ps gives me "15463 pts/1 00:00:00 nethack-console". |
| 18:28 | < AnnoDomini> | Any ideas? |
| 18:37 | < RichyB> | Have you tried typing "fg" to see whether something backgrounded it the ordinary way by mistake? |
| 18:37 | < RichyB> | if you're really desperate, you could attach gdb to it and muck around with its file descriptors manually, then let it resume |
| 18:37 | < AnnoDomini> | No such job. |
| 18:38 | < RichyB> | Did you close the terminal that it was originally opened in? |
| 18:38 | | * AnnoDomini uses the recover utility that comes with nethack to restore! |
| 18:42 | < AnnoDomini> | And no, I haven't closed it at the time. |
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| 19:26 | < iospace> | and back to PCIe debugging |
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| 21:06 | < AnnoDomini> | I seem to have found what causes this strange exiting. |
| 21:07 | < AnnoDomini> | If I use my scroll wheel on the terminal, it departs me from Nethack. |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | o_O. |
| 21:09 | < AnnoDomini> | Augh. It seems like a feature that's been mistakenly classified that way instead of being a bug. |
| 21:09 | < AnnoDomini> | And I don't know how to undo this. |
| 21:10 | <&McMartin> | Is this a "feature" of nethack, or of the terminal? |
| 21:10 | < AnnoDomini> | Terminal, it seems. I've never heard of such a functionality in Nethack. |
| 21:11 | < AnnoDomini> | I don't suppose you know how to reattach a process to a terminal? |
| 21:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | If it's just been backgrounded, 'fg' should do it. If not, no idea. perhaps try running it in screen, and then you can reattach to screen when it goes poof? |
| 21:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | What terminal emulator are you using? |
| 21:12 | < AnnoDomini> | I don't think it's been backgrounded. More like forcibly detached with no lube. |
| 21:12 | < AnnoDomini> | This is gnome-terminal. |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | It sounds like it's trying to scroll a curses window |
| 21:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have played a lot of nethack in gnome-terminal and never had this issue. |
| 21:13 | < AnnoDomini> | Ever tried to scroll with mouse wheel? |
| 21:14 | < AnnoDomini> | (Not that it matters much. It failed during identifying my possessions on ascension.) |
| 21:14 | <&McMartin> | Go team @ |
| 21:17 | < AnnoDomini> | Hmm. Trying this on a newly launched NH yields automatic game start. I seems like the mouse wheel rapid fires input to NH. |
| 21:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...is it at all possible that when it "detaches" it is actually activating Nethack's shell-out command, and exiting that shell returns you to nethack? |
| 21:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, it looks like mouse support is somehow getting enabled, in which case mouse actions will send lengthy escape sequences to whatever's running in the terminal |
| 21:29 | < AnnoDomini> | I have no idea. |
| 21:30 | < AnnoDomini> | All the forms of leaving the game, however, have some output to signify it being so. |
| 21:31 | < AnnoDomini> | In this case, nothing. |
| 21:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | Next time this happens, try exiting the shell and see what happens. |
| 21:31 | < AnnoDomini> | Also, if it went through the normal channels, it would either save or destroy the game. |
| 21:31 | < AnnoDomini> | It doesn't. The process is still there, and restarting nethack detects that process. |
| 21:32 | < AnnoDomini> | Closing the shell closes nethack. |
| 21:32 | < AnnoDomini> | After it happens, closing the shell doesn't close the process. |
| 21:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | Wait, what? You've just made two contradictory statements. |
| 21:35 | < AnnoDomini> | If nethack is running, closing the shell closes the game. No process left. |
| 21:35 | < AnnoDomini> | If the problem I described happens, closing the shell does nothing more than closing the shell. Process remains. |
| 21:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Note that by "closing the shell" here I mean typing 'exit' or ^D, not exiting the entire terminal emulator using the WM |
| 21:40 | < AnnoDomini> | ^D in nethack does not exit. 'exit' doesn't do anything in nethack. Outside of nethack, it does the same thing, AFAIK, as clicking the X button. |
| 21:40 | <&McMartin> | Not what he means |
| 21:40 | < AnnoDomini> | What does he mean? |
| 21:40 | <&McMartin> | He means "after the mouse scroll event, typing 'exit' at that terminal prompt you now have" |
| 21:40 | <&McMartin> | "as opposed to closing the window outright with the mouse" |
| 21:41 | < AnnoDomini> | Are you saying that it's some kind of screen-like functionality, maybe? |
| 21:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah. Exit that shell as opposed to the entire controlling terminal, and see if it vanishes entirely, or if it kicks you back into Nethack. |
| 21:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Nethack has a command that suspends Nethack and launches a terminal. |
| 21:41 | <&McMartin> | AnnoDomini: Yeah, that's what "shelling out" is there. |
| 21:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Er, launches a shell. |
| 21:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | Exiting that shell returns you to Nethack. |
| 21:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's !, IIRC. |
| 21:42 | <&McMartin> | That said |
| 21:42 | < AnnoDomini> | I don't think so, because when I got dumped to the prompt, it had the very same output present from before I launched nethack. It wasn't a new terminal, or new screen, as far as I could see. |
| 21:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh. |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | That said, for the record |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | 13:38 < AnnoDomini> ^D in nethack does not exit. 'exit' doesn't do anything in nethack. Outside of nethack, it does the same thing, AFAIK, as clicking the X button. |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | Not strictly true |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | Clicking the X button exits the current shell and all parents |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | If you run bash from your prompt, then type ^D or exit, you leave the subshell and go back into the one you called before |
| 21:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | For a trivial demonstration of this, open gnome-terminal, run 'bash', then run 'exit'. |
| 21:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Compare to the results of clicking X. |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | If you've sshed into another machine, 'exit' or ^D breaks the remote connection, while clicking X does that and kills your terminal. |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | The ssh case is more interesting~ |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | Some versions of bash will also block "exit" if there are backgrounded processes. |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | Hm |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | Not all of LGS stuff is on GOG, it seems |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | Still no System SHockery |
| 21:49 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, that's got Licensing Issues |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | Hm. |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | With whom? |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | Because GOG also has deals with Origin and EA. |
| 21:50 | <@TheWatcher> | The shock IP is being sat on my an insurance company in MI, who are willing to sell it to other developers or publishers |
| 21:50 | <&jerith> | Willing or unwilling? |
| 21:50 | <@TheWatcher> | willing, except that they apparently want entirely too much for it |
| 21:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | They say "willing" but considering that no-one has successfully negotiated it away from them, including EA themselves, that's either an outright lie or they want something completely unreasonable. |
| 21:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | But, yeah, I'm pretty sure Eidos (or, well, Square Enix) has the Dark Engine rights and the Thief IP, and EA probably has the Shock Engine, but the System Shock IP is owned by Star Insurance Company (a subsidiary of Meadowbrook Insurance Group). |
| 21:58 | <@TheWatcher> | "The idea would be to enter into some kind of arrangement where the game would be developed and that Meadowbrook would be compensated," - apparently a quote from an employee at the Meadowbrook Insurance Group, in Michigan |
| 21:58 | <@TheWatcher> | You can bet that's not going to be pretty |
| 21:59 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, especially since they also aren't contemplating, you know, republishing the stuff that already exists |
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| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | Aha |
| 23:00 | | * McMartin finds the part of this uninstaller that's been going rampant |
| 23:00 | | * McMartin -_-s |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | So many possible things to blame here |
| 23:01 | | * McMartin goes with the thing that is a feature 98% of the time. |
| 23:21 | <~Vornicus> | what's rampant now? |
| 23:21 | < iospace> | :D |
| 23:22 | < iospace> | Vornicus: Cortana :P |
| 23:22 | < iospace> | anyway, yay bug hunting ^_^ |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | Our uninstaller would wipe out your per-user settings &c even when you explicitly asked it not to |
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| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | I tracked this down to a different component's uninstaller wiping it out unconditionally, due to the combined facts that (a) %LOCALAPPDATA% does not exist on Windows XP, (b) NSIS fakes its existence anyway, and (c) NSIS also reinterprets %APPDATA% when you're in a "for all users" context. |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | So that component thought %LOCALAPPDATA% would have a systemwide meaning, and it turns out it doesn't. |
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| 23:49 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:52 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Thu Sep 27 00:00:39 2012 |