| --- Log opened Fri Sep 07 00:00:23 2012 |
| --- Day changed Fri Sep 07 2012 |
| 00:00 | <&Derakon> | Mercurial is failing because its install script is buggy. |
| 00:00 | <&Derakon> | And y'know what, fuck this I'll deal with it tomorrow. |
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| 01:07 | < Noah> | Uhg, damnit |
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| 01:57 | < RichyB> | Derakon: the First Sadness of Python on OS X is that you'll rapidly wind up with multiple incompatible python installations and everything will break as soon as something picks a wrong one. |
| 01:58 | < RichyB> | No I do not have a general solution other than, uh, bootstrap.py for zc.buildout, or virtualenv and being really careful about which terp you invoke those with. |
| 01:58 | < Noah> | I usually use virtualenv |
| 01:59 | < Noah> | And Not OS X (tm) |
| 01:59 | < celticminstrel> | I have not had this problem... |
| 02:00 | < celticminstrel> | Maybe I've just been lucky? |
| 02:00 | < RichyB> | Depends what you try to do with python. |
| 02:00 | < RichyB> | People trying to use python from macports and fink seem to run into it a lot. |
| 02:01 | < celticminstrel> | I use the one downloaded from the Python site. |
| 02:01 | < RichyB> | Especially deliberately installing a Python version that is different from the one that ships with the OS. |
| 02:02 | < Noah> | RichyB never does it the easy way |
| 02:02 | < RichyB> | celticminstrel: interesting. I have not run into this myself because I do not run OS X |
| 02:02 | < Noah> | Spends hours breaking something, then complains it broke so easily. |
| 02:02 | < RichyB> | celticminstrel: but I have not heard from anyone before who has a not-screwed-up OS X python :) |
| 02:02 | | * Noah nods sagely |
| 02:04 | < RichyB> | My assertion that it's the First Sadness is based on having seen every single one of my mac-using colleagues here run into such minefields, and assuming therefore that there might be actual problems rather than just common mistakes. |
| 02:04 | < celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 02:05 | < Noah> | RichyB: You underestimate the wide-reaching stupidity of your fellow man |
| 02:05 | < celticminstrel> | Well anyway, I installed 2.7 downloaded from python.org (with an installer package) and it works fine. I may have installed Python 3.1 too... |
| 02:06 | < celticminstrel> | ...not on Lion, it seems. |
| 02:06 | < celticminstrel> | I did on (Snow) Leopard. |
| 02:06 | < celticminstrel> | 3.1 that is. |
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| 02:18 | <&Derakon> | RichyB: it's an easy and common trap to try to use the system Python for your own purposes. |
| 02:18 | <&Derakon> | So long as you avoid that you should, as a general rule, be fine. |
| 02:18 | <&Derakon> | I got into trouble because I was trying to build a module from source, and its dependencies were unreasonable. |
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| 03:38 | <@Alek> | "Programmers also come in all kinds. I once listened for a quarter-hour as our director tried to explain to one Hindu coder why you couldn't round up .45 to .5 and then to 1." |
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| 04:02 | <&McMartin> | Round up from 4/9s |
| 04:03 | <&McMartin> | Hm. Actually, I have a fun semi-noob question |
| 04:04 | <&McMartin> | Is there a standard defence against session-surfing attacks? |
| 04:04 | <&McMartin> | nonces in the URLs? |
| 04:04 | <&Derakon> | Encryption? |
| 04:04 | <&McMartin> | How does that help? |
| 04:05 | <&Derakon> | Session-surfing is where you nab someone's cookie after they've logged in and pretend to be them, right? |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | Not quite |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | It's where you make the browser issue requests with their own cookies. |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-site_request_forgery |
| 04:06 | <&Derakon> | Ah,. |
| 04:06 | <&Derakon> | I'm going to plead insufficiency of brain to intelligently deal with this right now, sorry. |
| 04:06 | <&McMartin> | Sure |
| 04:07 | <&McMartin> | I'm not going for "can we work out a solution" - REST nonces do that - I was wondering if there was an equivalent to "use prepared query statements, you moron" is for SQL injection |
| 04:08 | | * Derakon googles, finds http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCAQ FjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fseclab.stanford.edu%2Fwebsec%2Fcsrf%2Fcsrf.pdf&ei=BmVJUI2q JMnmiwKusIH4Bg&usg=AFQjCNF36QPsa_cX3OFSZSqIEk_9mGX0PA&sig2=DpVK-RyUfGc5tu8I0Tv8X A |
| 04:08 | <&Derakon> | ...dammit, Google. |
| 04:08 | <&Derakon> | http://seclab.stanford.edu/websec/csrf/csrf.pdf |
| 04:09 | <&Derakon> | Which appears to suggest modifying browsers to provide extra header info, seems like a non-starter. |
| 04:09 | <&Derakon> | But the "existing defenses" section might be helpful. |
| 04:10 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | I was thinking "Session-Dependent Nonce" |
| 04:14 | <&Derakon> | I'm not familiar with the term "nonce" in this context. |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | The answer appears to be "there isn't a standard defense yet, this is one of those HEY WATCH OUT FOR THIS things still" |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | one-time password, more or less |
| 04:15 | <&McMartin> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_nonce |
| 04:16 | <&Derakon> | Ah, so, request login screen, receive nonce, use nonce in conjunction with password to login and establish encrypted session, or server rejects request if nonce already used. |
| 04:16 | <&McMartin> | Yup. |
| 04:16 | <&McMartin> | And if you need multiple challenge/response things, part of each challenge and response can be a nonce used for the next step. |
| 04:18 | <&McMartin> | Man, gotta love when a CS paper includes an "ethics" section in its experimental design. -_- |
| 04:19 | <&McMartin> | Also, cool, I know Prof. Mitchell. |
| 04:20 | <&McMartin> | I forget if I've met Barth or Jackson. |
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| 07:12 | < thalass> | boo |
| 07:14 | <~Vornicus> | it worked! \o/ |
| 07:14 | < thalass> | heh |
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| 13:41 | | * TheWatcher wonders just how much pain he is about to inflict on himself |
| 13:42 | < Thalass> | ? |
| 13:43 | < Thalass> | Actually i'll ask tomorrow haha |
| 13:43 | <@TheWatcher> | Using javascript to allow list items to be drag sorted. When the lists themselves are sublists of a larger list, which also supports drag sorting |
| 13:43 | < Thalass> | ah. Sounds potentially painful |
| 13:44 | <@Tamber> | ..."dentistry with a Black and Decker." |
| 13:44 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, and list items at all levels can be dynamically added and removed |
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| 13:44 | <@TheWatcher> | and the ordering needs to persist. |
| 13:45 | <@Tamber> | "...Black and Decker hammer drill, with masonry bit. Sans anaesthetic." |
| 13:47 | <@TheWatcher> | Thankfully, I'm not using naked javascript for this, but.. yeah |
| 14:00 | <@TheWatcher> | .... ahah, mootool's Sortables() should do everything I need |
| 14:25 | <@TheWatcher> | Also, <3 jsfiddle |
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| 15:36 | <@TheWatcher> | Mwahahaha, it's alive! AHahahahahah, etc. |
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| 16:47 | < simon_> | "Landauer's principle is the loosely formulated notion that the erasure of n bits of information must always incur a cost of nk ln(2) in thermodynamic entropy." (from Wikipedia) |
| 16:48 | < simon_> | this relates to [[Reversible computing]]. I wonder what nk ln(2) means, since ln(2) = 1. |
| 16:53 | <@TheWatcher> | um |
| 16:54 | <@TheWatcher> | only if you're doing a ceil(ln(2)). |
| 16:54 | <@TheWatcher> | ln 2 is 0.69314718056.... |
| 16:56 | < simon_> | oh! silly me. I forget ln is the natural logarithm. to me, base-2 is more natural it seems. ;-) |
| 16:56 | <@TheWatcher> | Hee |
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| 21:08 | <&Derakon> | Quick question, folks -- I need to set up a prioritization system for my event-responders, so that a given widget can react to an event after everyone else has. |
| 21:08 | <&Derakon> | Should things that happen earlier have lower or higher priority numbers? |
| 21:09 | <&Derakon> | I.e. should I make this guy go last by giving him a priority of -1 or of 10000? |
| 21:09 | <&Derakon> | (I recognize that functionally this is arbitrary, I'm just curious if there's some traditional approach) |
| 21:10 | < Lerrgzou> | I figure to go with what's more useful. In this case, is it more useful to be able to expand and append who goes first, or who goes last? |
| 21:10 | <&Derakon> | The numbers are arbitrary; they're used to sort a list. |
| 21:11 | <&Derakon> | So as long as I space numbers reasonably far apart I should never have issues. |
| 21:11 | <&Derakon> | The default priority should probably be 1 or 10 or something. |
| 21:11 | < Lerrgzou> | I'd personally go with higher == better. |
| 21:12 | <&Derakon> | Forgive me for asking, but since this is basically a "what is traditional" question to begin with, how much programming experience do you have? |
| 21:12 | <~Vornicus> | I've seen both ways |
| 21:13 | < Lerrgzou> | Derakon: Professionial? None. |
| 21:13 | < Lerrgzou> | Dabbling? About ten years I guess. |
| 21:13 | | * Derakon nods. "Thanks." |
| 21:13 | < gnolam> | Like Vorn, I've seen both. Depends on the API. |
| 21:14 | <~Vornicus> | Personally, I would go "lower number = happens first" |
| 21:14 | <~Vornicus> | And have your default be like 100. |
| 21:14 | <&Derakon> | I.e. the opposite of Lerrgzou's suggestion. :) |
| 21:15 | <~Vornicus> | Der: idunno, it makes more sense to me; that way you can sort your triggers by the number and then just iterate them. |
| 21:15 | <&Derakon> | That does have the advantage that the natural sequencing of priorities is also the order in which things happen. |
| 21:15 | < gnolam> | And I also personally prefer lower => higher priority. |
| 21:15 | < gnolam> | Besides the aforementioned stuff, it lets you easily have a well-defined highest priority number. |
| 21:16 | <&Derakon> | Not in Python! |
| 21:16 | <&Derakon> | Python ints have arbitrary precision. |
| 21:16 | <&Derakon> | ...oh, wait, "highest" as in "greatest priority". |
| 21:16 | <&Derakon> | That's the pitfall to that approach. |
| 21:17 | <&Derakon> | Bigness in priority does not correspond to bigness in numerical priority. |
| 21:17 | < gnolam> | Sorry, "lower number => greater priority". |
| 21:17 | <&Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 21:17 | <&Derakon> | Of course, the problem with all prioritization schemes is what happens when two entities want to have the highest priority. |
| 21:17 | <&Derakon> | But since there's literally no good solution to that, I needn't worry about it. |
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| 21:18 | <@Vash> | I blame Syloq |
| 21:18 | < gnolam> | Use a stable sort and let the machine god sort 'em out.~ |
| 21:18 | | * Vash flees |
| 21:18 | < Lerrgzou> | Time to dust off bubble sort! |
| 21:18 | <&Derakon> | Anyway, the cockpit UI mockup is... |
| 21:18 | | * Derakon kicks Lerrgzou out the airlock. |
| 21:18 | <&Derakon> | ANYWAY. |
| 21:19 | <&Derakon> | The cockpit mockup (though it's more a framework, really) is coming along nicely. |
| 21:19 | <&Derakon> | Unfucking my computer from yesterday went smoothly, thankfully. |
| 21:19 | <~Vornicus> | Der is working in a language that doesn't suck, and therefore has a sort built in that kicks the pants off, well, everything |
| 21:19 | < Lerrgzou> | Slim Shady sort! |
| 21:19 | <&Derakon> | subscribers.sort(lambda a, b: cmp(a[1], b[1])) |
| 21:20 | <&Derakon> | What sorting algorithm is it? Fuck if I know. |
| 21:20 | <&Derakon> | A good one. |
| 21:20 | <~Vornicus> | Python? Timsort. |
| 21:21 | <&Derakon> | Ooh, neat, it was created specifically for the language. |
| 21:21 | <~Vornicus> | Which is a natural (meaning it takes advantage of existing ordered runs) merge sort with some small goodies built in. |
| 21:21 | <~Vornicus> | but I gotta know |
| 21:21 | <~Vornicus> | why are you giving it a custom cmp instead of using keys? |
| 21:22 | <~Vornicus> | (there are of course good reasons to use cmp, but generally keys are a lot faster) |
| 21:22 | <&Derakon> | Mental laziness. |
| 21:22 | <&Derakon> | I'm used to writing comparators instead of keyfuncs. |
| 21:22 | <~Vornicus> | ah |
| 21:23 | <&Derakon> | Also, the actual sort function is lambda a, b: cmp(a[1], b[1]) or cmp(a[0], b[0]) |
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| 21:23 | <~Vornicus> | uh |
| 21:23 | <&Derakon> | Also also the number of subscribers to a given event is never going to exceed, like, 10 in practice. |
| 21:23 | <&Derakon> | (Yes, I could reorder them and then just do a sort without a comparator) |
| 21:23 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah, so, key=lambda a: a[1] |
| 21:23 | < rms> | AFACT network shaping that happens based on numeric fields will drop packets if the checked feild is higher |
| 21:24 | < rms> | Thus 0 == highest priority |
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| 21:31 | < RichyB> | Derakon: Python sort has a nicer interface than that. Instead of subscribers.sort(lambda a, b: cmp(a[1], b[1])), you can write subscribers.sort(key=lambda x:x[1]). |
| 21:31 | <&Derakon> | Yes, Vorn was ragging me on that. |
| 21:32 | | * RichyB facepalm |
| 21:32 | <&Derakon> | For some reason I never really think of that. |
| 21:32 | < RichyB> | Sorry. |
| 21:32 | <&Derakon> | In any event I just reordered (function, priority) to (priority, function) and call a bare sort() with no special functions at all. |
| 21:32 | | * McMartin also concurs with lower number = greater priority. |
| 21:32 | <&McMartin> | Yes, I was about to get to that |
| 21:32 | <&McMartin> | "When representing stuff as tuples, have the stuff you want to sort on be in the order in the tuple that you want to sort on" |
| 21:32 | < RichyB> | Writing comparators seems sensible enough, given that most languages only have the comparator parameter for their search functions. |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | Not that I've abused the everliving shit out of this in ML and Haskell and Clojure, no |
| 21:33 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 21:33 | <&Derakon> | Hooray currying? |
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| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | Well, tuples aren't curried |
| 21:34 | < RichyB> | Just that, when your comparator is just the builtin cmp() over a projection, it's fewer keystrokes to use the key= parameter and write just the projection. :) |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | But I'd have my priority worklist be a sorted set of tuples with "priority" as the first element and then the thing to sort on within a priority second |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | And then the data third |
| 21:36 | <&Derakon> | New question: should I have a generic "new image from any camera" event which has, as its first parameter, the camera the image came from, or should I have a special "new image for this camera" event? |
| 21:36 | <&Derakon> | Note that event "types" are determined by a string. |
| 21:36 | <&Derakon> | So this is the difference between "new image" and "new NW image", for example. |
| 21:44 | <~Vornicus> | "slim shady sort"? |
| 21:47 | < Lerrgzou> | It consists of repeatedly asking for the 'real $something' to stand up. |
| 21:47 | <~Vornicus> | I... see. |
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| 22:00 | <&Derakon> | Ooookay, my laptop just kernel-panicked. |
| 22:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Ouch |
| 22:01 | <&Derakon> | It happened while I was investigating some OpenGL errors my camera display code was spewing. |
| 22:01 | <&Derakon> | I wonder if I managed to hose the graphics card somehow? |
| 22:05 | < RichyB> | Your graphics drivers are buggy as shit. Doesn't really matter who wrote them, the statement is almost always true. |
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| 22:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Heh |
| 22:08 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 22:08 | <&McMartin> | Our Linux guy is reporting that the Intel drivers are getting Linux patches marked with things like "make L4D2 run faster" |
| 22:08 | <&Derakon> | In unrelated news, things are going fantastically today especially compared to yesterday. I've gotten so much done. |
| 22:09 | <@TheWatcher> | \o/ |
| 22:09 | < RichyB> | McMartin: ?! |
| 22:09 | <&Derakon> | The MUI framework is getting close to the point that I can start porting the experiment-collection systems to it, which is frankly happening way sooner than I'd thought it would. |
| 22:10 | <@TheWatcher> | Congrats :) |
| 22:10 | <&Derakon> | (And all this on only six hours of sleep!) |
| 22:11 | <&Derakon> | Also also, it continues to amuse me that I have a mui.gui package. |
| 22:12 | <&Derakon> | Mooey-gooey! |
| 22:12 | <&McMartin> | Modern UI? |
| 22:12 | <&Derakon> | Microscope User Interface. |
| 22:12 | <@TheWatcher> | I still think it should have been eXperimental Computer Operated Microsope ;P |
| 22:13 | <&Derakon> | Not to say I can't rename the project still, but I do think that I should try to avoid naming conflicts~ |
| 22:13 | <@TheWatcher> | Heh |
| 22:13 | <&McMartin> | The good XCOM remake is now available for pre-order \o/ |
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| 22:17 | <&Derakon> | I suppose I could call it MUDI -- Microscope User/Device Interface |
| 22:17 | <&Derakon> | And then we could say "The microscope's being moody again". |
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| 22:19 | < gnolam> | Heh. |
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| 23:31 | <&Derakon> | ...ah yes, the mosaic code. |
| 23:32 | <&Derakon> | 1124 lines of crap. |
| 23:32 | <&Derakon> | Hm. |
| 23:33 | | * Derakon feels his coder's high start to dissipate a bit. |
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| --- Log closed Sat Sep 08 00:00:52 2012 |