| --- Log opened Fri Aug 10 00:00:13 2012 |
| 00:00 | <~Vornicus> | heh, and now I'm remembering how I often solved the mission in diablo 1 with the little demon and the sign: wall of fire in the walled-in zones, because you didn't need line of effect. |
| 00:00 | < gnolam> | Vornicus: see: Covert Action |
| 00:01 | <~Vornicus> | that a game? |
| 00:02 | < gnolam> | Yup |
| 00:02 | < gnolam> | A Sid Meier one, even. |
| 00:02 | <~Vornicus> | Oh I see. |
| 00:03 | < gnolam> | Spy-themed game. If you don't get the mastermind in the current mission, he'll be behind the next one. |
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| 02:45 | <&Derakon> | So, getting back to that whole Prompt business from the other day. |
| 02:46 | <&Derakon> | I have a "gui" package in Pyrel. Currently this just contains the wxWidgets-based, ASCII-style display mode. |
| 02:46 | <&Derakon> | What I'm thinking I could do would be to add a "UI mode" selector to the gui package. |
| 02:46 | <&Derakon> | So you'd do "import gui; gui.use(gui.WX)" or something. |
| 02:46 | <&Derakon> | And that would do two things. |
| 02:47 | <&Derakon> | First, it would do the necessary initialization to use the desired UI -- creating windows and so on. |
| 02:47 | <&Derakon> | Second, it would import that UI's version of whatever objects the main game needs to know about. |
| 02:47 | <&Derakon> | Thus giving the engine access to Prompts without needing to know anything about the display layer. |
| 02:48 | <&Derakon> | This implies that e.g. every UI implementation needs to implement a YesNoPrompt. |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | That seems entirely reasonably, tbqh. |
| 02:49 | <&Derakon> | I've experienced so much pain at work from previous coders using "import foo as bar" and "from foo import *" that I've sort of erected a mental block against doing anything besides "import foo" in my coding. ?.? |
| 02:49 | <&Derakon> | But I guess I can bring myself to do "import wx.prompt as prompt". |
| 02:54 | <&Derakon> | ...mental note: don't name the wxWidgets-UI package "wx". |
| 02:55 | <&McMartin> | /me ; ; at this code |
| 02:56 | | * McMartin is programming hitler |
| 03:00 | <&Derakon> | Well, could you program him to be a better artist? |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | working on it |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | Step 1: make it work at all without subjugating europe^W^Wbreaking the client-server state machine |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | That step 1 is necessary at all given that AIUI we're using a REST-like API is kind of "impressive" |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | Step 2: Make the code changes for that minimal. |
| 03:48 | <&Derakon> | Okay, so I need each UI to implement the various Prompt subclasses. |
| 03:48 | <&McMartin> | Step 1 looks like it has been done |
| 03:48 | <&McMartin> | \o/ |
| 03:48 | | * McMartin commits it to a branch with an apology |
| 03:48 | <&Derakon> | Usually the way I'd do this would be to have a "core" definition for each subclass, that the UI then subclasses. |
| 03:49 | <&Derakon> | This isn't necessary but at least means that I can throw a custom exception saying "Implement this function stub, you idiot!" instead of just having the function not be there, for example. |
| 03:49 | <&Derakon> | But I want to extend the core Prompt class for this UI layer, to add handleKeyboardInput(). |
| 03:50 | <&Derakon> | And then get that function for all of the subclasses. |
| 03:50 | <&Derakon> | Which sounds like an obvious situation for multiple inheritance... |
| 03:50 | <&Derakon> | Or I could just give up on making the UI Prompts be subclasses of some UI-independent Prompt. |
| 04:16 | | * Derakon goes with that last option for now. |
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| 04:50 | < Tarinaky> | Man. Python's documentation is so much nicer than Lua's :/ |
| 04:53 | <~Vornicus> | Python's documentation /literally taught me to program/ |
| 04:55 | < Tarinaky> | I don't understand what a static function is though. |
| 04:55 | < Tarinaky> | (in C) |
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| 04:59 | <&McMartin> | file-scoped. |
| 04:59 | < Tarinaky> | Part of me wants to use Python on C++ just to provide a wrapper for file io. |
| 04:59 | < Tarinaky> | *in C++ |
| 04:59 | < Tarinaky> | the rest of me is convinced this is a bad idea or redundant. |
| 05:00 | <~Vornicus> | I'm so unfamiliar with C's scoping rules that I don't know what file-scoped means. |
| 05:01 | <~Vornicus> | You could just write in Python and replace stuff with pyrex and eventually C as you need it. |
| 05:02 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, Python makes it easy to replace the bits that actually need to be fast with reimplementations in C/C++. |
| 05:02 | <&Derakon> | And the way I interpret "static" is as "independent of any specific context". |
| 05:03 | <&Derakon> | So your normal class functions are executed in the context of a specific instance of that class. |
| 05:03 | <&Derakon> | A static class function has no such context. |
| 05:03 | < Tarinaky> | The dynamic typing does my head in some times and distributing python is.,.. tricky. |
| 05:03 | <&Derakon> | py2app, py2exe |
| 05:03 | <&Derakon> | They aren't trivial to use but they're still pretty easy. |
| 05:03 | < Tarinaky> | That's Mac and Windows covered, |
| 05:04 | <&Derakon> | If you want to cover Linux, let some Linux fanatic help you write your installer there. |
| 05:04 | <~Vornicus> | Linux is Fucking Easy |
| 05:05 | | * Derakon ponders his Prompts. |
| 05:05 | <~Vornicus> | You just put a shebang in there and make sure your program can be found. |
| 05:05 | < Tarinaky> | What if you don't want to give away your source code? |
| 05:05 | <&Derakon> | The receiveKeyInput function needs to be able to say one of these three things: 1) "I'm done", 2) "I need more information (i.e. another prompt)", 3) "I'm not done". |
| 05:06 | <~Vornicus> | Then you're stuck. If someone cares enough they can decompile your code anyway. |
| 05:06 | <&Derakon> | I guess that means a three-state return value. |
| 05:06 | <~Vornicus> | And if you don't feel like throwing around uncompiled code, I am pretty sure .pycs are also executable. |
| 05:07 | <&Derakon> | Yep. |
| 05:07 | <&Derakon> | I've wasted time debugging because I left a .pyc in place after moving a .py and the code still referred to the old file. |
| 05:08 | < Tarinaky> | Anyway. I think we've established that Python isn't what I really want to be using. |
| 05:08 | <~Vornicus> | You too, ah? |
| 05:08 | <&Derakon> | I've been working with Python long enough to have made most of the stupid mistakes~ |
| 05:11 | | * Derakon mutters, tries to think of an elegant way to have a three-state return value. |
| 05:11 | < Tarinaky> | Derakon: What language? |
| 05:11 | <~Vornicus> | True, False, FileNotFound |
| 05:11 | <&Derakon> | Vorn: >.< |
| 05:11 | <&Derakon> | I think I have it. |
| 05:11 | < Tarinaky> | int (with constants defined) |
| 05:11 | <&Derakon> | If the Prompt is completed, return None. |
| 05:11 | <~Vornicus> | I started typing "None" for the last one but then the WTF hit me. |
| 05:12 | <&Derakon> | Otherwise if the Prompt still needs more input, return itself. |
| 05:12 | <&Derakon> | Otherwise if a new Prompt is needed, return the new Prompt. |
| 05:12 | <&Derakon> | In any case, the caller (which is the input handler) sets the return value as the current Prompt to direct input to. |
| 05:25 | <&Derakon> | Hm, this didn't work. http://pastebin.com/EKLknNYU |
| 05:25 | <&Derakon> | This is in gui/__init__.py |
| 05:25 | <&Derakon> | The idea was you'd do "import gui; gui.setUIMode(gui.WX)" and then later you could do "import gui.prompt". |
| 05:25 | <&Derakon> | But it doesn't seem to actually work. |
| 05:26 | <&Derakon> | And the problem would appear to be that imports are function-scoped. |
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| 05:29 | <&Derakon> | ...well, that and "import gui.prompt" doesn't actually check to see if you've assigned anything to the gui package, I guess. |
| 05:34 | <&Derakon> | Ugh, I hate playing with namespaces this way. >.< |
| 05:36 | < rms> | I hate how Python makes you chose between: hackish namespace tricks, having really huge files and having files of decent sizes putting things in namespaces without having billions of really small/nested namespaces. |
| 05:36 | <&Derakon> | Billions of really small / nested namespaces is the way to go, honestly. |
| 05:36 | <&Derakon> | The problem I have here is I'm trying to alias one namespace on top of another. |
| 05:44 | <&McMartin> | A nasty trick I picked up from Java is to use classes *as* namespaces. |
| 05:44 | <&McMartin> | In Python, they're more or less semantically identical anyway~ |
| 05:44 | <&McMartin> | that said: clojure \o/ |
| 05:46 | < rms> | Heh, in JS namespaces don't exist |
| 05:46 | < rms> | So people will use functions/objects as psuedo namespaces |
| 05:47 | <&McMartin> | (Clojure lets you set the current namespace with a command) |
| 05:47 | < rms> | Then again, JS is the only language I know of that lets you add members to a function |
| 05:47 | <&McMartin> | Python lets you make objects callable, which results in equivalent semantics. |
| 05:48 | <&McMartin> | ... and lets you add members to objects at runtime. |
| 05:48 | < Tarinaky> | C++ lets you overload operator() which results in equivalent semantics. :p |
| 05:48 | <&McMartin> | No; in C++ you cannot add members to an instance. |
| 05:48 | < Tarinaky> | Oh, point. |
| 05:49 | < Tarinaky> | But the instance cna -have- members. |
| 05:49 | <&McMartin> | I'm reading "add" here has "monkeypatch" |
| 05:49 | <&McMartin> | *as |
| 05:49 | < Tarinaky> | Well,, if you're desperate you could overload operator[] and use a datastructure. |
| 05:50 | < Tarinaky> | But then you're just being silly. |
| 05:50 | <&McMartin> | The "problem" is that you can't overload operator. |
| 05:50 | <&McMartin> | That is, "operator.", not "operator". |
| 05:51 | < Tarinaky> | You can, however, ovberload operator -> |
| 05:51 | | * Derakon goes to #python on Freenode, is told to return a tuple representing the type of Prompt he wants to make and let the UI layer do the appropriate dispatch. |
| 05:51 | <&Derakon> | Which would be inelegant from the engine's perspective, and add a layer of indirection...but it'd work. Bleh. |
| 05:51 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, it's my favored form of data-direction~ |
| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | (Have you done any work with the ML family, or Haskell?) |
| 05:52 | <&Derakon> | I did a little SML back in college. |
| 05:53 | <&McMartin> | This sounds like Prompt should be a data type, ML-style |
| 05:53 | <&McMartin> | type prompt = Confirm of bool | Text of string | ... |
| 05:54 | <&Derakon> | Prompts also need to be able to draw themselves. |
| 05:54 | <&Derakon> | And process input. |
| 05:54 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | I'd think that for all practical purposes Prompts would be their own event loop, that never calls into/notifies the model. |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | Until Confirm is hit. |
| 05:55 | <&Derakon> | They intercept input until they're cancelled, yeah. |
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| 06:00 | | * Derakon finally gets possibly-useful answers from #python |
| 06:00 | <&Derakon> | #1: use a class, as McM suggested. |
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| 06:01 | <&Derakon> | #2: modify sys.modules. |
| 06:01 | <&Derakon> | (Up until now, I was getting the classic geek answer to "How do I do X?", namely, "Why would you want to do X? Do Y instead.") |
| 06:07 | <&Derakon> | #3: pass the UI around as an object whenever invoking engine functions that might need it; let the engine invoke appropriate Prompt-creating functions on the UI as it needs to. |
| 06:09 | <&McMartin> | No do not thread the IO monad through your entire program dear god |
| 06:09 | < Tarinaky> | Hmm :/ Can't get SDL-2 to compile. |
| 06:09 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 06:09 | <&Derakon> | That just maps back to "UI, please do the appropriate dispatching yourself" anyway. |
| 06:09 | <&Derakon> | I'm inclined to go with #1 at the moment, but I'm going to leave the decision for a time when I'm less tired. |
| 06:11 | <&McMartin> | Before you crash |
| 06:11 | <&McMartin> | How enterprisey are you planning on making this? |
| 06:11 | <&McMartin> | If you want it to be able to import UIs based on a config string, #2 is I believe the only one that will work without also needing evail() |
| 06:11 | <&McMartin> | eval(), rather |
| 06:12 | <&Derakon> | Well, Angband currently can be run in windowed mode, in a console, and on Android. |
| 06:12 | <&Derakon> | There's a separate UI layer for each, plus different ones for every operating system. |
| 06:12 | <&Derakon> | But the different OS ones could be unified by using Qt or wx or the like. |
| 06:12 | <&McMartin> | right |
| 06:12 | <&Derakon> | That still leaves "exotic" platforms, which is why I'm bothering with all this in the first place. |
| 06:12 | <&McMartin> | The thing is, different OSes also have different binaries so you can just hardcode the class. |
| 06:13 | <&Derakon> | Otherwise I'd just say "Maintain a good separation between engine and UI and have done with it." |
| 06:13 | <&McMartin> | If you're envisioning hardcoded classes per distribution unit then #1 is simplest |
| 06:13 | <&McMartin> | If you're envisioning people sticking alternate UI code in the python path and then sending in an argument for the new UI to use, that's a very very strong pointer towards method #2. |
| 06:13 | <&Derakon> | The idea is that you run e.g. "pyrel --use-console", and then Pyrel's init routine does "import gui; gui.setUIMode(gui.CONSOLE)". |
| 06:14 | <&Derakon> | Then whenever you interact with the gui package/module after that, it's automatically in a "console" context. |
| 06:14 | <&McMartin> | OK, so, hardcoded. #1 is probably the easiest. |
| 06:14 | <&Derakon> | Seemed like it to me, yeah. |
| 06:14 | <&Derakon> | And has minimal magic for people who don't understand the innards of Python. |
| 06:15 | <&Derakon> | Funny...all of my major game projects have had as a secondary goal "be non-threatening to people who want to get into programming by modifying this game." |
| 06:15 | <&Derakon> | Very likely that saves me a bunch of time in the process. |
| 06:15 | <&Derakon> | Or would, if I ever finished anything. |
| 06:15 | <&McMartin> | heh |
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| 12:17 | < Thalass> | hello all. |
| 12:17 | < Thalass> | I have a question (run while you can) regarding motherboard drivers and linux. |
| 12:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Yis? |
| 12:19 | < Thalass> | I assumed thay the kernel would be able to handle all that, but the guy assembling my computer was worried, being a windows guy. I couldn't answer very well as i've never built a new computer for linux |
| 12:19 | < ShellNinja> | I've never had problems with Linux not recognizing motherboards. |
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| 12:20 | < ShellNinja> | Hell, I've never had problems with Windows not recognizing motherboards. |
| 12:20 | < Thalass> | it's a newish mobo, and ubuntu 12.04 so i was just going to see what happens :p |
| 12:20 | < ShellNinja> | It'll probably work just fine. Ubuntu is one of the frequently updated distributions. |
| 12:20 | < Thalass> | good. I thought that would be the case. I guess this is a chance to show him the powah of linux haha |
| 12:20 | | * Thalass nods |
| 12:21 | < Thalass> | Always good to get confirmation from those who know more |
| 12:21 | < ShellNinja> | No bets on ancillary things like wifi adapters. |
| 12:21 | <@TheWatcher> | Thal: do you know what the motherboard is? |
| 12:21 | | * ShellNinja goes biking. |
| 12:27 | < Thalass> | Asus striker 2 extreme. |
| 12:27 | < Thalass> | I failed at google-fu when i had a look. |
| 12:28 | <@TheWatcher> | http://uk.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_775/Striker_II_Extreme/ - that? |
| 12:29 | < Thalass> | i belive that's it |
| 12:37 | <@TheWatcher> | Near as I can tell, it should work - the kernel certainly has drivers for it all, although I'd be surprised if some of it worked (like the frequency led, vold led, possibly a few other minor things) |
| 12:37 | <@TheWatcher> | The major stuff should all be there, though |
| 12:46 | < rms> | What drivers does a motherboard /need/? |
| 12:46 | | * rms assumed that mobos didn't need drivers |
| 12:47 | < rms> | In general though, only issue I have with drivers and modern Linux are the video drivers. |
| 12:47 | < rms> | Oh, and sound through HDMI |
| 12:48 | <@TheWatcher> | rms: you need to be able to talk to the northbridge to set up a bunch of things |
| 12:51 | <@TheWatcher> | But really, that stuff's pretty standard now - I was more checking that his PATA/SATA, audio, and network chipsets are supported. |
| 12:53 | < Thalass> | Ah champion. Thanks guys. :) |
| 12:54 | < RichyB> | Maybe I?C stuff for things like fan controllers? I don't think that there's a really well standardised "plug and pray" way of interacting with I?C devices on motherboards. |
| 13:00 | <@TheWatcher> | It's nforce based, and there's stuff for the MCP79s. |
| 13:05 | | * TheWatcher vaguely stabs the person who decided bind_params() is 1-indexed |
| 13:06 | <@TheWatcher> | -s |
| 13:13 | | Thalass|phone [Thalass@C2A270.1179B7.313116.E4C444] has joined #code |
| 13:16 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hmm I experimented with 1-based indexing at some point. It was just too jarring |
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| 13:16 | < Rhamphoryncus> | And modulo does work better with 0-based |
| 13:16 | < Rhamphoryncus> | otoh, I will often adjust to 1-based when printing |
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| 13:40 | < Tarinaky> | F-me it's hot in here :/ |
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| 13:48 | < Thalass|phone> | In this irc channel? |
| 13:48 | < Tarinaky> | This physical space. |
| 13:48 | < Tarinaky> | Also children outside are loud and I want to shoot them with a rifle. |
| 13:48 | < Thalass|phone> | i was going to say. |
| 13:48 | < Tarinaky> | I cannot close my window because otherwise I will catch fire. |
| 13:55 | < Thalass|phone> | Ah. It's even worse when they live with you haha |
| 13:56 | < Tarinaky> | I have two younger brothers to annoy me full time/ |
| 14:00 | < Tarinaky> | There's someone outside trying to play some bloody brass instrument. |
| 14:00 | < Tarinaky> | Except all they can do is make a horrible sound. |
| 14:00 | < Tarinaky> | I wish they'd go somewhere else :/ There's a river nearby - maybe they could practice beneath its surface. |
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| 15:14 | | * TheWatcher hairpulls at this query generator |
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| 21:27 | < ShellNinja> | http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/12/q3/e24/Pic-5.jpg |
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| --- Log closed Sat Aug 11 00:00:28 2012 |