| --- Log opened Sun May 20 00:00:22 2012 |
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| 00:18 | < Noah> | Is there a easy way to determine if a returned value from something is either a string or a dictionary? |
| 00:20 | < Noah> | Or should I have it raise and return on a except instead? |
| 00:20 | <&Derakon> | "type(foo) is dict" |
| 00:20 | < Noah> | Oh right |
| 00:21 | < Noah> | verses str for string |
| 00:21 | < Noah> | thanks, I had a feeling it was simple |
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| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | It's really best in Python to not do polyvalent return values like that though. |
| 00:26 | <&Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 00:27 | < Noah> | Agreed, but the alternative would be returning a dictionary with an error key and an error message as a value |
| 00:34 | < Noah> | And generally this is the only case where I do it, when returning a descriptive error message about while the function or method didn't like it's input; wouldn't do anything odd like returning a list and a tuple, unless, for some reason, I had a function that accepted both several lists and several tuples and combined them but only returned the largest one |
| 00:34 | <~Vornicus> | um |
| 00:34 | <~Vornicus> | raise |
| 00:35 | <~Vornicus> | This is /exactly what it's there for/ |
| 00:35 | <&Derakon> | raise RuntimeError("This didn't work") -> catch Runtime Error, error: print "Failed:", error |
| 00:35 | <&Derakon> | Prints |
| 00:35 | <&Derakon> | "Failed: This didn't work" |
| 00:35 | < Noah> | Yea, that |
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| 00:47 | < Noah> | I love logic bugs |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | LOGIX |
| 00:48 | < Noah> | Oh, you're trying to roll d6s and d8s? Well, here's numbers from 1 to 5 and 1 to 7... |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | range (1, 6) doesn't mean that, no~ |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | The classic way of phrasing that is actually randint(6)+1, not randint(1, 7), but. |
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| 01:37 | < Noah> | Here's sort of a weird question. Is there any really bad reason why I wouldn't want to, say, mass reload the modules located in sys.modules? |
| 01:40 | <~Vornicus> | Among other things that may blow up objects that depend on those modules, including sockets. |
| 01:40 | < Noah> | "blow up", in a memory sense? |
| 01:41 | < Noah> | Or cause to crash |
| 01:41 | <~Vornicus> | cause to crash or otherwise |
| 01:41 | < Noah> | I see |
| 01:41 | <~Vornicus> | it may for instance close your sockets. |
| 01:41 | < Noah> | Basically...sec, lemme get you a link here |
| 01:43 | < Noah> | https://bitbucket.org/mao42ranma/mf0dicebot/src |
| 01:44 | < Noah> | In main, there's a function of the bot class that reloads plugins that are located in the plugins directory |
| 01:44 | < Noah> | I need to extend that to any directory that contains a py file at the same level as the plugins folder |
| 01:45 | <~Vornicus> | Idunno. This is crazy stuff, to me. |
| 01:47 | < celticminstrel> | Still haven't figured out this segfault... |
| 01:48 | < Noah> | I'm sure I can figure it out, I'm just not firing on all cylinders |
| 01:49 | < Noah> | I guess I just have to have the bot somehow figure out what directories are in the same folder as it is, then loop that thing for the "plugins" dir module reloading iterated over each folder it finds |
| 01:53 | < Noah> | because I don't want it reloading twisted, I'm sure that would break it |
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| 01:57 | < celticminstrel> | I guess I'll figure it out later. |
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| 03:55 | <&McMartin> | Translating BASIC into idiomatic LISP with as few true variable assignments as possible: Actually kind of tricky. |
| 03:55 | | * McMartin thinks he's gotten it down to one. |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | It's zero-able, but that one is more annoying to un-state. |
| 03:58 | <&McMartin> | Since it's "the first time this I/O sequence does this thing, do this other thing", and I/O based ratchets I don't feel bad about leaving imperative. |
| 04:22 | | * Rhamphoryncus realizes his Matrix class was the most fun to write of his opengl experiment so far |
| 04:23 | < Rhamphoryncus> | A simple, self-contained component |
| 04:24 | < Rhamphoryncus> | The only one really. I have other classes but they're wrappers for opengl APIs, so they're hardly self contained |
| 04:54 | <&McMartin> | Whoops, right. Lisp has infinite-precision rationals, so / on integers isn't div. |
| 05:25 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I wonder if I should put http://mycroft.mozdev.org/search-engines.html?name=google+verbatim in my quit message. |
| 05:40 | | * jerith takes a look at roblox.com |
| 05:42 | <&Derakon> | Is Google Verbatim "search for what I actually typed in, not words you think are similar"? |
| 05:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yes |
| 05:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | or "I can spell better than a 3rd grader, please stop treating me like one" |
| 05:48 | | iospace is now known as io\t-2 |
| 05:57 | < Rhamphoryncus> | .. yup, that's about what I expected. Bodged together parts of a tessellation shader as best I could, turned it on, and got.. nothing. No errors, the other stuff still renders fine, it's just not rendering my square patch |
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| 07:51 | <&McMartin> | That's my second assignable variable |
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| 08:09 | <&McMartin> | ... this function is a 23-clause let binding followed by a marshalling of the results. |
| 08:15 | < Rhamphoryncus> | That sounds bad |
| 08:16 | < Noah> | Bad...or AWESOME? |
| 08:16 | <&McMartin> | Unnervingly practical |
| 08:16 | <&McMartin> | Static single assignment: not just for breakfast anymore |
| 08:17 | <&McMartin> | This is basically a spreadsheet game, so the 23 clauses are working out the results of a tick in every detail, and then shoving it all into a map once it's all been computed. |
| 08:17 | < Noah> | 10 GOTO 10 |
| 08:26 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Hrm. This ebook has sections titles "Getting ready". In my head I keep hearing "Get ready!" and a funny sounds |
| 08:27 | <&McMartin> | Zero's special attack from MMX4? |
| 08:28 | < Rhamphoryncus> | nope |
| 08:28 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Not even sure what that is |
| 08:28 | < Noah> | It's a game |
| 08:28 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I'm thinking of the really old jet fighter game. Atari or that era |
| 08:31 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hrm. Nope |
| 08:32 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Afterburner for sega. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PRHqj05AkM |
| 08:35 | <&McMartin> | Woo Afterburner! |
| 08:35 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So I'm reading about OpenGL 4 tessellation shaders and in my head is Afterburner... |
| 08:44 | <&McMartin> | Note that my one OpenGL program of any note is an After Burner homage. >:D |
| 08:44 | < Rhamphoryncus> | seriously? |
| 08:44 | <&McMartin> | Yup. |
| 08:44 | <&McMartin> | One moment |
| 08:44 | <&McMartin> | https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/sable/ |
| 08:44 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Woo piracy! I may just decipher tessellation shaders yet! |
| 08:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | (pirated ebook) |
| 08:45 | <&McMartin> | It's very OpenGL 1.x |
| 08:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | nifty |
| 08:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, there's a lot of that |
| 08:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | While searching through a library listing I could help but smirk at books called "advanced opengl" that are now obsolete |
| 08:46 | <&McMartin> | Well, Sable is almost 10 years old now, so. |
| 08:47 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 08:47 | <&McMartin> | It was designed to run on a 3dfx Voodoo 3, omg. |
| 08:47 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 08:48 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I dunno how I'm going to build a low-end version of yasttc. I forgot that "basic" (in my head) features like writing to an offscreen framebuffer is actually a new feature |
| 09:09 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Well, I feel like I understand how to use tessellation shaders now, but it still doesn't work ;) |
| 09:10 | < Rhamphoryncus> | vertices vs triangles vs control points vs more vertices vs more triangles. They fit together in my head |
| 09:10 | <&McMartin> | OK, so |
| 09:10 | <&McMartin> | https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/king.jar - should be self-contained and run in console with "java -jar king.jar" |
| 09:11 | < Rhamphoryncus> | What is it? |
| 09:11 | <&McMartin> | A Clojure port of a (semi-)famous old city-sim game from a book of BASIC programs. |
| 09:12 | <&McMartin> | It's got a bit of an 80-column mindset as a result |
| 09:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I'm the premier of Frobnia! |
| 09:14 | <&McMartin> | I'm figuring this kind of game would be much better served as a form-based JavaScript game. |
| 09:15 | < Rhamphoryncus> | *total fail* |
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| 09:19 | <&McMartin> | I've found the best strategy is to crash the population *just enough* and then go steady-state, otherwise you end up forced to eat the seed corn and fail horribly |
| 09:19 | < Rhamphoryncus> | imprisoned by a riot |
| 09:22 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Gah. 500 people, only fed 450, next year had 1100 |
| 09:25 | < Rhamphoryncus> | What's "just enough"? |
| 09:29 | <&McMartin> | If your pop ever goes below 384, or if you lose 200 in a year, or if anyone starves and you have 500 currency units left over, that's an immediate loss |
| 09:29 | <&McMartin> | Deaths also cause emigrations, which can drop you below 384 |
| 09:29 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ahhh |
| 09:30 | <&McMartin> | Pollution control brings in immigrants, and is a divisor for pollution damage at, IIRC, 25 zorkmids per divisor count, so, useless until 50 which halves pollution damage, then 75 thirds it, 100 quarters it, etc. |
| 09:30 | <&McMartin> | But pollution only happens if you sell land, so I try really hard to make sure that never happens. |
| 09:31 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 09:31 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Well I got to year 4 |
| 09:31 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Plant as much as possible? |
| 09:36 | < Rhamphoryncus> | eh, anyway :) |
| 09:37 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, max planting as much as you can, if you care~ |
| 09:37 | <&McMartin> | As long as land price is approx. ten times plant price you can steady-state just on farming and then tourism money will smooth over the rough edges |
| 09:37 | <&McMartin> | But it is not very well balanced ;-) |
| 09:38 | <&McMartin> | ... -_- |
| 09:38 | <&McMartin> | (str (clojure.string/join (repeat 16 Double/NaN)) ", Batman!") |
| 09:38 | <&McMartin> | -> "NaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaN, Batman!" |
| 09:38 | <@Tamber> | Hehe |
| 09:39 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ugh lol |
| 09:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Hmm. I do not appear to be loading the tessellation shaders XD |
| 09:42 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I'm not sure but that *might* be a factor in them not being rendered, hehe |
| 09:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | fails to load. Much better, I think |
| 10:01 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 10:12 | | * McMartin snickers |
| 10:13 | <&McMartin> | OK, working out the odds |
| 10:13 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yay, I have a triangle! |
| 10:13 | <&McMartin> | The sustainable-on-average population of your tiny communist nation? |
| 10:13 | <&McMartin> | is 83. |
| 10:13 | < Rhamphoryncus> | LOL |
| 10:14 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So the game is not about sustainability. It's about drawing out the implosion just long enough to leave the office with a suitcase full of cash |
| 10:14 | <&McMartin> | Also, AFAICT any interaction with the outside world beyond tourism makes it collapse faster. |
| 10:14 | <&McMartin> | Pretty much, yeah |
| 10:14 | <&McMartin> | Selling land is basically trading permanent, massive penalties for double farm output for one year. |
| 10:14 | <&McMartin> | Which is to say, it's pretty much all downside |
| 10:15 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So probably just for the last couple years |
| 10:15 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, if that |
| 10:20 | | * McMartin gets lucky in planting costs, manages to win with population stabilizing at 422. |
| 10:21 | <&McMartin> | The treasury was steadily going down, but it didn't run out before I fled~ |
| 10:22 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 10:23 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I wonder if your appointment is involuntary, heh |
| 10:23 | <&McMartin> | Whoops |
| 10:23 | | * McMartin tries a basic heuristic, has it fail on turn 1. |
| 10:23 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 10:24 | <&McMartin> | But the country was on a much firmer financial footing afterwards! |
| 10:24 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yeah, I noticed that |
| 10:25 | <&McMartin> | If you start the game with a high planting cost and a low treasury you're basically fucked at the starting gate. |
| 10:25 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Although.. each person does 2 plots of land.. why is there a sustainable point at 83? |
| 10:26 | <&McMartin> | The average cost to plant is 12.5; the average yield is 50, and they need 100 to feed themselves. |
| 10:26 | <&McMartin> | They then bring in 22 tourist dollars. |
| 10:27 | <&McMartin> | So that's an average net per citizen of 100 + 22 - 100 - 25 = -3. |
| 10:27 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So one person spends 25, gets a yield of 100.. yeah |
| 10:27 | <&McMartin> | Then there's rand-int(500) bonus tourism money. |
| 10:27 | <&McMartin> | Averages 249.5. |
| 10:27 | <&McMartin> | floor(249.5 / 3.0) = 83. |
| 10:27 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But the tourism doesn't scale with population so you eventually hit a point where it makes up the difference |
| 10:28 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yeah |
| 10:28 | <&McMartin> | Tourism *does* scale with population, just not enough. |
| 10:28 | <&McMartin> | It's the bonus tourism dollars that make the area habitable *at all*. |
| 10:28 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ahh |
| 10:28 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So there's a scaling and non-scaling tourism factor |
| 10:29 | <&McMartin> | Right. I factored the scaling tourism factor into the "net money per citizen" |
| 10:29 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yeah |
| 10:30 | < Rhamphoryncus> | pollution kills both factors? |
| 10:30 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, to a random amount |
| 10:30 | <&McMartin> | And then the amount it damages is divided by (min 1 (floor (/ pollution-control 25))) |
| 10:30 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 10:30 | <&McMartin> | overfeeding and pollution control also spur immigration |
| 10:31 | <&McMartin> | OK, it looks like at 500 pop start, it's safe to starve 45 citizens but probably not 46, depending on rounding errors. |
| 10:31 | < Rhamphoryncus> | does it actually require 100 each? |
| 10:32 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 10:32 | <&McMartin> | ... whoops |
| 10:32 | <&McMartin> | Now my population is 538 |
| 10:32 | < Rhamphoryncus> | doomed |
| 10:33 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey. Pop in excess of 500 does contribute to scaled tourism income but not to farming. |
| 10:33 | | * McMartin starves out the excess but 6 people immigrate anyway. |
| 10:34 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I was aiming for 425/450 |
| 10:34 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Or 400 if you're gutsy :D |
| 10:35 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 10:35 | <&McMartin> | It looks like 1.5 people emigrate for each person who dies |
| 10:35 | <&McMartin> | So I'm tuning for that~ |
| 10:35 | < Rhamphoryncus> | *nods* |
| 10:35 | | * McMartin has a bad planting year, starves them down to 452, ends up with over 60k in the treasury |
| 10:35 | <&McMartin> | I can probably autopilot from here on out, really |
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| 10:37 | <&McMartin> | Oop, no, now it's 128 cost and 95 gain per citizen, they're doomed. |
| 10:37 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 10:38 | <&McMartin> | Now I can afford to starve 27 |
| 10:38 | <&McMartin> | It looks like starving people and spending the money to induce immigration can actually stave off population bleeds a lot~ |
| 10:39 | < Rhamphoryncus> | is pollution control immigration cheaper than feeding them? |
| 10:39 | <&McMartin> | ... yeah, net pop drop: 2. |
| 10:39 | <&McMartin> | Yes, every 25 you spend on pollution control induces an immigrant |
| 10:39 | <&McMartin> | However, each person that starves induces 1.5 emigrants |
| 10:39 | <&McMartin> | Haven't balance-pointed that yet |
| 10:39 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hrm |
| 10:40 | <&McMartin> | Also, regardless of immigration, 200 deaths (to starvation *or* pollution) in one year is an instant loss even if immigration makes it up. |
| 10:40 | < Rhamphoryncus> | 2.5 out means 2.5*25 = 62.5 to replace them |
| 10:40 | < Rhamphoryncus> | oops |
| 10:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | 212.5. Gotta feed the emigrants. |
| 10:41 | <&McMartin> | Not immediately, though! |
| 10:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So 85 each |
| 10:41 | <&McMartin> | So that means that moving 100 from food to pollution control increases population by .15... |
| 10:42 | <&McMartin> | Maybe we *can* be self-sustaining by luring people to their deaths! |
| 10:42 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hehehe |
| 10:42 | <&McMartin> | Some called it impossible |
| 10:42 | <&McMartin> | I called it Rapture! |
| 10:43 | | * McMartin breaks out a calculator to work out this turn. |
| 10:45 | <&McMartin> | Hrm, that didn't quite work. |
| 10:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 10:46 | <&McMartin> | That's because I can't add. Oops. |
| 10:46 | | * McMartin loses in year 7. |
| 10:47 | <&McMartin> | OK |
| 10:47 | <&McMartin> | It isn't safe to let more than 55 people die in a year because your non-riot buffer can't handle the funeral expenses without selling land. |
| 10:49 | <&McMartin> | OK, replacing starved population with foolish immigrants lets you save up to 2,000 currency a year. |
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| 10:49 | <&McMartin> | That ups your sustainable average population to 770! |
| 10:50 | <&McMartin> | *Totally* doable, and the game is now solved~ |
| 10:53 | < Rhamphoryncus> | lol |
| 10:54 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So the trick is.. starve some of the people who live there while spending money on making the place look pretty so you bring new people in. |
| 10:54 | <&McMartin> | Hmm. This also makes small amounts of foreign industry sustainable by starving out some and recruiting with your superfund sites. |
| 10:54 | <&McMartin> | Yup. |
| 10:54 | <&McMartin> | It's exactly like real life! |
| 10:54 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 10:55 | <&McMartin> | Of course, now my population is gradually increasing, but I've got an 8,000 zorkmid buffer. |
| 10:57 | < Rhamphoryncus> | freaky |
| 10:58 | <&McMartin> | wtc |
| 10:58 | <&McMartin> | I'm profiting, this is terribly wrong |
| 10:58 | <&McMartin> | Though I'm also getting things like profitable years (cost 10 to plant, 52.5 yield) |
| 10:58 | | * McMartin will show them! |
| 10:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hehe |
| 10:59 | | * McMartin sells ALL THE FARMLAND for year 8, spends ALL THE PROCEEDS after food on circuses |
| 10:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | LOL |
| 10:59 | <&McMartin> | I WIN! |
| 10:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | :D |
| 10:59 | <&McMartin> | Year 9 is going to suck. |
| 10:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | LOL |
| 11:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | What were your ending stats? |
| 11:00 | <&McMartin> | Final population: 4,441 Frobnians, 999 Magnesians |
| 11:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | :O |
| 11:00 | <&McMartin> | And you know what what, there's no final summary, I should put that in. |
| 11:01 | <&McMartin> | Also, final amount of farmland: ZERO |
| 11:01 | <&McMartin> | Final treasury somewhere in the vicinity of 10,000. |
| 11:02 | | * Rhamphoryncus ponders an opengl version of this ;) |
| 11:03 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Beautiful opengl4 graphics.. with the controls all through an in-game terminal |
| 11:04 | <&McMartin> | I've been thinking more "HTML form" |
| 11:04 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, thanks |
| 11:04 | <&McMartin> | If it weren't for your prodding this would have not as been as interesting a game as I had thought~ |
| 11:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | :) |
| 11:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I almost didn't even try it |
| 11:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Then I almost quit after 2 attempts |
| 11:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | It didn't get interesting until you started puzzling the game mechanics |
| 11:05 | <&McMartin> | (There may still be some edge cases - that 770 number assumes they're all farmers and that's not possible, and the requirement that you never have more than 500 moneys left after a year if you're doing starvation may introduce other edge cases) |
| 11:06 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yeah |
| 11:06 | <&McMartin> | Now I kind of want to write an AI for it. |
| 11:09 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 11:12 | <&McMartin> | I think with that, in order to be able to ride out price shifts and exploit other price shifts most effectively, you end up wanting to actually target a steady-state population of 500. |
| 11:12 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 11:17 | <&McMartin> | OK, from a pop of 500, the absolute minimum you can spend before planting without losing is 45561, which should drop you exactly to one above the loss threshold. |
| 11:18 | <&McMartin> | Starve 54, resulting in a total population loss of 135, and then you make up 19 of it (and pay for the funerals of the 54) |
| 11:18 | <&McMartin> | But that gives you a sliding scale before planting of 45600 to 50000, which is a comfortable margin, and if you stay in it, you won't leave. |
| 11:19 | <@Tamber> | "I have a code, I need to parallel the processes to speed up the time consume. using latest technique of parallel by using c++ netbeans Ubuntu operating system." ...what. Why the hell do I still think I'm going to find something semi-decent on rent-a-coder? |
| 11:20 | <&McMartin> | Is that someone bragging about how awesome they are or someone asking for work that they need done? |
| 11:21 | <@Tamber> | Someone asking for work to be done. |
| 11:21 | <&McMartin> | Man, you should go parallel the fuck out of their processes with C++ beans. |
| 11:21 | <&McMartin> | Just make sure you're paid in advance. |
| 11:21 | <@TheWatcher> | I... watman |
| 11:21 | <@Tamber> | haha |
| 11:22 | <&McMartin> | Latest Technique of Parallel is the name of our band's newest album |
| 11:22 | <&McMartin> | It's very meta |
| 11:22 | <&McMartin> | For the full effect you have to play three copies of it in three different stereo systems, on different tracks. |
| 11:23 | <@TheWatcher> | I don't even want to know where that's from, I fear I would be unable to resist the urge to smash heads together. |
| 11:24 | <@Tamber> | http://www.vworker.com/RentACoder/misc/BidRequests/ShowBidRequest.asp?lngBidRequ estId=1886617 :P |
| 11:24 | <@TheWatcher> | Wait, it's someone doing a devops borad, right? |
| 11:24 | <@TheWatcher> | *borat |
| 11:26 | <&McMartin> | To make wealthy glorious project of netbeans ubuntu |
| 11:26 | | * McMartin is now on autopilot, relocates to bed. |
| 11:27 | <@TheWatcher> | Night, slepwell |
| 11:27 | < Rhamphoryncus> | cya |
| 11:27 | <&McMartin> | Not sure if that's happening, despite it being 0300 I woke up 11 hours ago -_- |
| 11:29 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 11:29 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | bbl, smashing heads. |
| 11:30 | <@Tamber> | Enjoy. |
| 11:30 | | * Tamber has a new favourite. "on windows i can connect my laptop to a monitor and it works fine using the HDMI cable but it wont work on opensuse. I think its something to do with analogue and digital." |
| 11:30 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Hmm. Getting a GLSL linker error. It's 4 lines. Anybody mind if I paste it here? |
| 11:31 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Tamber: that almost makes sense.. |
| 11:31 | | * McMartin eyes that page |
| 11:31 | <&McMartin> | "Maximum accepted bid: $100" |
| 11:31 | <&McMartin> | "Estimated size: $100-$499" |
| 11:32 | < Rhamphoryncus> | DVI has both analog and digital and HDMI inherits the digital part of it |
| 11:34 | <&McMartin> | Quality Parallelization is high-end work. If we assume that Silicon Valley people are all elitist assholes who will charge ten times what they're actually worth the whole project for writing a cutting-edge parallelization algorithm they expect to be worth, they're *still* estimating this job to be only half a week. |
| 11:34 | <@Tamber> | This is why, I think, most of those projects just die out with no bids. "I want the world, but I'm only going to pay you $12 for it." |
| 11:34 | < Rhamphoryncus> | If the person actually has DVI, or even a DVI port with a DVI->HDMI adapter and HDMI cable, then suse could be getting confused |
| 11:35 | <&McMartin> | A seriously cutting-edge parallelization job requires someone with Master's level experience, though god only knows what they think they want or how cutting-edge it needs to be. |
| 11:35 | <@Tamber> | My guess: "Do my homework for me" |
| 11:35 | <&McMartin> | It's not remotely uncommon to see contractors at that level command hourly wages of $40-$50 USD. |
| 11:35 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Tamber: yeah. Needs a few professionals going around and rating what they thing a job is worth and the quality of the post |
| 11:36 | <&McMartin> | And assuming that's one week's work, they're *still* offering about a half of the US minimum wage. |
| 11:37 | < Rhamphoryncus> | My dad installs cabinets. He charges around $80/hour for service work |
| 11:37 | < Rhamphoryncus> | people with skill charge lots. Period. |
| 11:37 | <@Tamber> | Indeed. |
| 11:37 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Minimum wage = incompetent |
| 11:37 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, though general contracting like that vs. software contracting is a little slipperier. |
| 11:38 | <&McMartin> | Since the expectation is that a software contractor will be more like a paralegal back when paralegaling was skilled labor. |
| 11:38 | <&McMartin> | That is, there will always be more work available for them then it is reasonable to expect them to do |
| 11:38 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hmm interesting |
| 11:38 | <&McMartin> | That $80/hr also presumably includes the "scheduling it" and "getting there" snuck in. |
| 11:39 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yup |
| 11:39 | <&McMartin> | While the $40-$50 tends to be "This is what you'd be getting as a salaried worker here if they had to sort out their own payroll/Social Security taxes" |
| 11:39 | < Rhamphoryncus> | And it's service work. Normal installations are typically per unit |
| 11:39 | <&McMartin> | nog |
| 11:40 | <&McMartin> | Per-deliverable coding projects are a BAD, BAD IDEA. |
| 11:40 | <&McMartin> | It's perverse incentives on all sides and all but guarantees the result won't be maintained. |
| 11:40 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But he's also an older guy who's very good at it. If it doesn't fit he can chop up and rebuild a cabinet |
| 11:40 | <&McMartin> | Nice |
| 11:41 | <&McMartin> | Carpentry is great for me in that I know exactly enough about it to be able to recognize what is going on and be generally terrified by the forces at work >_> |
| 11:41 | <&McMartin> | Also, curse them for yoinking the phrase "router table" before we did <_< |
| 11:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But since he's older his productivity is starting to drop :/ |
| 11:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 11:42 | <&McMartin> | My dad got "kicked upstairs" about a decade ago |
| 11:42 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Management? |
| 11:43 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, he got moved from tech lead to lower management in a project that the company hates but which is also one of the few that actually makes money |
| 11:43 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 11:43 | <&McMartin> | I think they're going to wait for everyone to retire or be made lay-off-able and then shut it down, and then die. =P |
| 11:43 | < Rhamphoryncus> | lol |
| 11:43 | < Rhamphoryncus> | business 101 |
| 11:44 | <&McMartin> | They were primarily bought for their patent portfolio. The parent company doesn't give a rat's ass about the product. |
| 11:44 | | RichyB [MyCatVerbs@Nightstar-86656b6c.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #code |
| 11:44 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I'm sad nobody took my "4 lines" bait. Just because actually wraps onto 7 lines.. |
| 11:44 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 11:44 | <&McMartin> | "Rants and monologues are encouraged", it says *right there* |
| 11:45 | < RichyB> | Did I miss a rant? |
| 11:45 | <&McMartin> | No |
| 11:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ERROR: error(#277) Symbol 'vtc_colour[0], vtc_colour[1], vtc_colour[2], vtc_colour[3], vtc_colour[4], vtc_colour[5], vtc_colour[6], vtc_colour[7], vtc_colour[8], vtc_colour[9], vtc_colour[10], vtc_colour[11], vtc_colour[12], vtc_colour[13], vtc_colour[14], vtc_colour[15], vtc_colour[16], vtc_colour[17], vtc_colour[18], vtc_colour[19], vtc_colour[20], vtc_colour[21], vtc_colour[22], vtc_colour[23], vtc_colour[24], vtc_colour[25], vt |
| 11:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | c_colour[26], vtc_colour[27], vtc_colour[28], vtc_colour[29], vtc_colour[30], vtc_colour[31]' usage doesn't match between two stages |
| 11:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | There's one of the four |
| 11:45 | <&McMartin> | Rhamphoryncus was asking permission to post a code snippet, so we didn't. |
| 11:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I was setting them up to be blasted with a wall of text |
| 11:46 | < RichyB> | Yow. |
| 11:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | upon closer inspection they're identical |
| 11:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | That same thing is repeated 4 times |
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| 15:55 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 16:20 | | * Vornicus finds himself needing to fiddle with NURBS curves |
| 16:31 | <~Vornicus> | but the way they're represented in here are a bit much |
| 16:32 | < Rhamphoryncus> | NUUUUUURBS! |
| 16:34 | < Rhamphoryncus> | It's just a curved line, how much do you need to play with it?! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spline01.gif |
| 16:37 | < celticminstrel> | Argh I can't examine an std::map in the debugger... |
| 16:37 | < Rhamphoryncus> | lame |
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| 16:48 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Are nurbs curves particularly expensive to compute? I get that impression |
| 16:50 | < Noah> | I want to run python on my phone, make it happen |
| 16:51 | <~Vornicus> | Rham: uh. I'm pretty sure they're not all that bad |
| 16:51 | <~Vornicus> | They're a little worse than b-splines |
| 16:51 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Noah: go find it and install it |
| 16:52 | < Noah> | I'm fraking working on it |
| 16:53 | < Noah> | But it's not like there's a package in the App Market |
| 16:53 | < Noah> | Or google play |
| 16:53 | < Noah> | Or whatthefuckever they're calling it now |
| 16:53 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yeah :( |
| 16:53 | <~Vornicus> | So, let me see here. |
| 16:54 | <~Vornicus> | Okay, found it. |
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| 16:55 | < Noah> | Oh shi |
| 16:56 | < Noah> | Apparenlty, there's ways to write full android programs in python |
| 16:56 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Well yeah |
| 16:56 | < Noah> | http://code.google.com/p/python-for-android/downloads/detail?name=full_screen_ui _wrapper_demo.py |
| 16:56 | < Noah> | As an example |
| 16:58 | <~Vornicus> | Okay so you have, p the degree, d the dimensionality, and n the number of control points |
| 16:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ only mentions needing to turn on unknown sources |
| 16:59 | <~Vornicus> | b-splines are log(n) + d * p^2 |
| 17:00 | < Noah> | Yea, I'm used to installing apks that way, I'm just making sure this is the proper way to python on android |
| 17:01 | < Noah> | And I want to update my phone here first anyway, since it's being goofy |
| 17:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Vornicus: There's no way my brain will handle the math right now :) |
| 17:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Noah: you're phone gets updates? Lucky :P |
| 17:01 | < Noah> | Cyanogen mod |
| 17:01 | <~Vornicus> | and then nurbs splines are log(n) + (d + 1)*p^2 + d |
| 17:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | unsupported |
| 17:02 | | * TheWatcher needs to jailbreak and clean up Myst's phone soon, can't install an android update because there's so much shit root installed that there's not enough space for it |
| 17:02 | <~Vornicus> | you have an additional dimension that you do the interpolation in, and then you divide your coordinates by that dimension. |
| 17:02 | < Noah> | Better supported than my HTC crapware |
| 17:03 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Vornicus: ... I can do a bezier curve! ;) |
| 17:03 | <~Vornicus> | heh |
| 17:04 | <~Vornicus> | I have to go. |
| 17:04 | <~Vornicus> | I can explain b-splines and nurbses when I get back |
| 17:04 | | * Rhamphoryncus pushes you out the door already |
| 17:04 | < Rhamphoryncus> | it was just a simple question! lol |
| 17:05 | <~Vornicus> | but basically: a degree 2, 3-dimensional b spline does 9 divisions, the equivalent degree NURBS does 15. |
| 17:06 | < Rhamphoryncus> | opengl stuff seems to use bezier curves. Professional modelling prefers nurbs. Nurbs are clearly more complicated (bezier are dirt simple), so I guessed that nurbs were more expensive |
| 17:06 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Perhaps they're just overkill when you only have so many triangles |
| 17:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But much more fun to say. Nurby nurby nurby! |
| 17:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | nnnnnuurby! |
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| 17:55 | | * TheWatcher pokes at Test::More, hrms, builds a harness |
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| 21:29 | < Noah> | http://kivy.org/#home |
| 21:29 | < Noah> | This seems promising |
| 21:50 | <&jerith> | It's a bit of a pain, from what I've heard. |
| 21:51 | < Noah> | harder than learning psuedo-java? |
| 22:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | augh |
| 22:06 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So I'm watching a GLSL demo video and one of the related videos is about photorealistic textures |
| 22:06 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Can you guess what it was? |
| 22:06 | < Rhamphoryncus> | fucking minecraft video :P |
| 22:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | just with a high res texture |
| 22:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yes, it's a nice texture, but that can't overcome the fact that a single triangle covers 25% of the screen |
| 22:09 | < Noah> | That triangle works it's ass off Rhamphoryncus, you should show more respect |
| 22:10 | < Rhamphoryncus> | That triangle is a bitch and should tessellate itself some friends |
| 22:10 | < Noah> | hehe |
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| 23:29 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey |
| 23:30 | <&McMartin> | Since I did the Lisp rewrite it's actually going to be *really easy* to hook an AI into playing it. |
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| --- Log closed Mon May 21 00:00:10 2012 |