| --- Log opened Sun May 06 00:00:57 2012 |
| 00:01 | <&jerith> | Yup, that's our Charlie. |
| 00:33 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:37 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:39 | < gnolam> | ... ye gods Gimp 2.8's splash screen is hideous |
| 00:47 | < gnolam> | And as usual, they have the same grasp of usability as a badger's grasp of calculus. |
| 00:48 | < gnolam> | Save to a different format than .xcf? No, you can't do that in this dialog even though we understand what you're trying to do and pop up a dialog about it - it's important that you have to use /another/ menu option for that. |
| 00:48 | < gnolam> | >_< |
| 00:49 | < celticminstrel> | Heh! |
| 00:51 | < gnolam> | Seriously what the fuck GIMP team. This removes any doubt that you're not just incompetent but actively malicious. |
| 00:51 | < celticminstrel> | The save dialog, or something else now? |
| 00:52 | < gnolam> | The save dialog. |
| 00:52 | < gnolam> | Haven't looked around at what else they've fucked up even further. |
| 01:01 | < gnolam> | But naturally: they actually take developer effort to implement that shit, but they keep their completely retarded file format chooser. |
| 01:03 | <@rms> | gnolam: passing that along to a friend who helps with the release cycle |
| 01:04 | <@rms> | Are you using the Windows release? |
| 01:09 | < gnolam> | (If you've never used the GIMP, the save dialog has the standard directory tree, directory listing, file name and file format chooser. But this being the GIMP, the file format dropdown only affects the directory tree filter, not the actual file format you're saving as.) |
| 01:09 | < gnolam> | Yes. |
| 01:10 | <@rms> | Alrighty, I let him know |
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| 01:20 | < gnolam> | Oh hey. Looks like it broke 2.6 as well. :P |
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| 01:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | gnolam: did this change in 2.8? In 2.6 the file format chooser works fine. |
| 01:58 | < gnolam> | No, it's been that way forever. |
| 02:11 | < celticminstrel> | Maybe it's a Windows thing? |
| 02:12 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 02:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | gnolam: it clearly hasn't; see my previous statement. |
| 02:15 | < gnolam> | It has for every single version I've used, across multiple computers. |
| 02:15 | < gnolam> | Open some kind of image. |
| 02:15 | < gnolam> | Choose "Save As". |
| 02:16 | < gnolam> | Select another file type. |
| 02:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, I see what you mean. |
| 02:16 | < gnolam> | The directory listing's filter changes, that's it. |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, if you filter by one file type, and then enter a different type for the actual file you're saving, it will take the name of the file as authoritative, since the default format is "by extension". |
| 02:17 | < gnolam> | And this is really, really stupid. |
| 02:18 | <@Tamber> | Wait, so you're filtering by file type, then overriding that by typing a different extension; and you're complaining it does a perfectly reasonable thing? |
| 02:18 | <@Tamber> | Or are you filtering by file type, then not providing an extension, and it's doing Strange Things? |
| 02:18 | < gnolam> | You're filtering by file type, and that only affects the directory listing. |
| 02:18 | < gnolam> | It doesn't actually select a file type or extension or anything. |
| 02:18 | <@Tamber> | So it still saves as XCF? |
| 02:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Assuming you type in a ".xcf" extension, yes. |
| 02:19 | < gnolam> | If you want to go by only what you type - which is what the GIMP does - then /do so/. Don't even pretend to have user friendliness. |
| 02:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, yeah, if you filter by .png, and then save as "something.xcf", it will save as XCF, not PNG. |
| 02:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Personally, I don't see a problem with that, and prefer it to the windows approach of "I will blindly append whatever the filter is to the name you actually entered" |
| 02:19 | <@Tamber> | Indeed. |
| 02:19 | < gnolam> | The "perfectly reasonable thing" is to have it work like _every other program, ever_: selecting a different file type... selects a different file type. |
| 02:20 | <@Tamber> | Then stop providing an extension? :p |
| 02:20 | < gnolam> | *sigh* |
| 02:20 | <~Vornicus> | gnolam: so what's actually happening here |
| 02:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | You seem to have this problem where you can't distinguish "filtering the view of the directory" from the giant "SELECT FILE TYPE" dropdown right next to it. |
| 02:20 | <~Vornicus> | is you're /not/ providing an extension, the original filename is? |
| 02:21 | < celticminstrel> | Selecting a file type should just change the entered filename to have the appropriate extension. |
| 02:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: what he's complaining about is that the GIMP's save window has two "file type" dropdowns - one provided by GTK+ that filters the directory viewer by extension, and one provided by the GIMP itself that controls the actual format on disk of the image you are about to save. |
| 02:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | The former does not affect the latter; so if you filter by PNG and choose XCF in the latter, your image will save as XCF despite the fact that the directory viewer is showing you nothing but PNGs. |
| 02:22 | < celticminstrel> | Though, that the save dialog has file type filtering at all is kinda odd. |
| 02:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | (the default format, incidentally, is "by extension"; I have no idea what happens if you don't provide an extension) |
| 02:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: it's using the stock GTK+ "save file" dialogue. |
| 02:23 | <@Tamber> | TF: Just tried it, it seems to default to XCF. |
| 02:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | With the file type chooser stuck on the bottom. |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | Still can't believe they called it that -_- |
| 02:23 | < celticminstrel> | So, it'd a GTK issue. |
| 02:23 | < celticminstrel> | ^it's |
| 02:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: well, they -could- roll their own that omits the filter |
| 02:23 | | * McMartin had to restrain himself from throwing rocks through the XCF's windows as an undergrad |
| 02:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm not convinced it's an "issue" at all |
| 02:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: what? |
| 02:23 | < celticminstrel> | Why does save need a filter at all? |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: XCF = "Experimental Computing Facility", the Berkeley lab where the GIMP was born |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | passed it every day as a student |
| 02:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ahahahaha |
| 02:25 | <@Tamber> | celticminstrel, I'd guess that it's exactly the same widget as the one used in the open dialogue. (Which, I suppose, it makes sense.) |
| 02:26 | < celticminstrel> | Maybe sort of. |
| 02:26 | <@Tamber> | Where, even* |
| 02:26 | < celticminstrel> | Huh? |
| 02:26 | < celticminstrel> | Oh, I see. |
| 02:27 | < celticminstrel> | I just mentally edited out the "it". |
| 02:27 | <@Tamber> | Typing through 400+ms RTT is playing hell with my brain. |
| 02:27 | <@Tamber> | In particular, the bit that makes me English good. |
| 02:27 | < celticminstrel> | RTT? |
| 02:28 | <@Tamber> | Round Trip Time. |
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| 03:16 | < Janus> | Hello! Do you remember Bawt? He was a robot who spoke in broken english? Well. Literally it was broken bits of english he heard? How did that work? |
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| 03:17 | <@rms> | Janus: Markov chain? |
| 03:20 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah, probably a markov chain |
| 03:20 | <~Vornicus> | bawt's still around with a different codebase, but markov chains are the way you deal with that |
| 03:22 | < Janus> | Markov chain! That's it! I wonder how he manages to respond so ... semi-intellectually though, or if that's also part of the markov process |
| 03:23 | < gnolam> | Janus: he still hangs around in #Nightstar_Bar . And is as disturbing as ever. |
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| 03:33 | < Janus> | Oh maaan I love that robot. I looked up markov chains on wikipedia. It ... seems pretty intense! |
| 03:34 | < Janus> | Then again, anything with the weird zig-zag giant E that isn't an E frightens me |
| 03:34 | < celticminstrel> | Are you talking about sigma? |
| 03:39 | < Janus> | I know it means... sum? Or something. But yeah, never learned it in school. Or... maybe I just slept during that day |
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| 03:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Janus: ? |
| 03:49 | < celticminstrel> | Yes, sigma. |
| 03:49 | < celticminstrel> | It's basically the for-loop of math notation. |
| 03:50 | < celticminstrel> | ...that's a major over-simplification, but whatever. |
| 03:50 | | * Janus was about to say "Oh, that seems simple" But it can never be that easy |
| 03:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's more of a reduce(+), but yes |
| 03:51 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, sigma is specifically for addition. |
| 03:51 | <&Derakon> | There's also a big pi for multiplication. |
| 03:51 | < celticminstrel> | Right, but you can replace sigma with any function name and it still works. |
| 03:52 | < celticminstrel> | Or operator symbol. |
| 03:52 | < celticminstrel> | Or some special things like the pi for multiplication. |
| 03:57 | < celticminstrel> | reduce() takes a function and a set, right? |
| 03:58 | <~Vornicus> | reduce takes a function and a sequence and optionally a starting value. |
| 03:59 | < celticminstrel> | Sequence, set, whatever... let's say a collection, then. |
| 04:00 | <~Vornicus> | generally it must be a sequence |
| 04:00 | < celticminstrel> | Well, that's not the case for the sigma-type syntax, though. It can operate on sets as well. |
| 04:02 | <~Vornicus> | if your operation isn't commutative and associative (addition and multiplication, and their analogues in other fields, are; most other operations are not), then order matters |
| 04:02 | <~Vornicus> | (matrix multiplication is associative but not commutative) |
| 04:03 | < celticminstrel> | Ah, that's true. |
| 04:04 | < celticminstrel> | I think it's usually been union or intersection when I saw it operating on sets. Which are both commutative and associative. |
| 04:05 | <~Vornicus> | anything that generally matches AND or OR or XOR on bits will be commutative and associative |
| 04:06 | <~Vornicus> | Stuff that requires more work than that generally won't be. |
| 04:07 | <~Vornicus> | (also at the same time matrix multiplication is the kind of thing that you'd actually want to reduce: opengl and postscript both have a notion of a transformation stack, and you figure out the ultimate transformation by multiplying all the matrices in the stack together) |
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| 07:58 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|breakfast |
| 08:09 | | ErikMesoy|sleep is now known as ErikMesoy |
| 08:15 | <&jerith> | Pyweek theme is Mad Science. |
| 08:15 | | celmin is now known as celmin|zZz |
| 09:01 | <&McMartin> | SCIENCE!!!!! |
| 09:08 | | Kindamoody|breakfast is now known as Kindamoody |
| 09:11 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 11:53 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
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| 18:49 | < maoranma> | McMartin: Heard anything about when the PDF will be out for MFZ? |
| 18:57 | < maoranma> | Oh god damnit |
| 18:58 | < maoranma> | Why does Bear have to bite the head off the first amphibian he finds. |
| 18:58 | < maoranma> | I mean, sure, eat whatver you can find |
| 18:58 | < maoranma> | But now he's got a raw headless frog in one hand, and fucking lit torch in the other |
| 19:02 | <@Tamber> | o.0 |
| 19:04 | < Alek> | at least it wasn't a bat. |
| 19:04 | < Namegduf> | /79 |
| 19:04 | < Namegduf> | Whoops. |
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| 19:11 | < Noah> | "Cuba imports cigars from him." |
| 19:11 | < Noah> | Stupid Dos Equis commerical |
| 19:12 | < Noah> | Love the new state farm Mayhem commercial though |
| 19:13 | < Noah> | "I'm your dog. I'm supposed to guard your most valuable possessions, but luckily these guys brought me this great bone... HEY! *eyes burglars* You guys are great!~" |
| 19:13 | < Noah> | I fell out of my chair |
| 19:15 | < gnolam> | Noah: Wrong channel? |
| 19:18 | < Noah> | Actually, it is, I tiled my windows in mIRC wrong |
| 19:18 | < Noah> | gnolam: Are you on a windows machine? |
| 19:20 | < gnolam> | Yes. |
| 19:21 | < Noah> | I used Aquasnap, since it works on XP and Vista, though I'm on 7. It lets you tile MDI windows as well, like those in mIRC and such |
| 19:21 | < Noah> | And Dexpot, for virtual desktops, which is free for non-commercial use |
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| 20:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, here's an interesting problem that I'm not sure how to solve in the general case. |
| 20:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have a (2d) object with a bunch of thrusters attached to it. |
| 20:28 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 20:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Each thruster has a maximum amount of thrust (but can deliver less than that if desired). |
| 20:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | There is no guarantee that they all face the same way or are all thrusting through the COG. |
| 20:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | So essentially what we have is a set of thrusters, each one of which can be described by maximum thrust (vector) and maximum torque (real). |
| 20:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Given that, and a manouvering desire (which is a desire to accelerate forward or back, and/or rotate clockwise or counterclockwise), what set of thruster inputs maximizes that without inducing any other thrust or rotation? |
| 20:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | And minimizing the total amount of thrust used, if there are multiple solutions. |
| 20:36 | < gnolam> | My initial thought is LP problem => simplex method, but there should be an easier way. |
| 20:47 | <&Derakon> | That was also my thought. |
| 20:48 | <&Derakon> | It would be easier if the thrusters either solely rotated or solely provided velocity. |
| 20:48 | <&Derakon> | (In fact it would be trivial) |
| 20:49 | <&Derakon> | Actually depending on your thruster configuration, a maneuvering desire may not be achievable. |
| 20:49 | <&Derakon> | E.g. if you want to move just forwards, but you only have thrusters which impart rotation in the process of moving you. |
| 20:49 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: yeah, in that case I'd accept either "nothing happens" or "you move but you only turn" |
| 20:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | And yeah, "solely rotated or solely provided velocity" is not a reasonable constraint; this is for a KSP-style ship building thingy. |
| 20:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | So the user might stick on engines god knows where. |
| 20:58 | <&Derakon> | I kind of guessed~ |
| 20:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | (Captain Forever solves this by simply firing all engines with thrust that contributes to the desired vector. Your engines are off balance? Too bad.) |
| 20:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | (if I ever actually write this, I'd like to be a bit friendlier about it) |
| 20:59 | <&Derakon> | I do think that Simplex is probably your best bet. |
| 21:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thanks. I will do some research. |
| 21:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | (I know that this is solvable within gaming performance constraints because KSP does it, and in three dimensions) |
| 21:01 | <&Derakon> | It's entirely possible that KSP is not fully solving it, but rather getting close enough with a heuristic-based approach or something. |
| 21:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | oh god matrices |
| 21:02 | < gnolam> | Oh yeah. I should've warned you. |
| 21:02 | < ErikMesoy> | Well, if you have three engines whose angles of firing are at least 181 degrees on the shortest arc between all of them, you can get arbitrary direction by summing appropriate amounts of those. |
| 21:02 | < gnolam> | If you've never implemented Simplex before, There Will Be Pain. |
| 21:02 | < ErikMesoy> | Interesting question. |
| 21:02 | <&Derakon> | Oh gods, don't implement it yourself. |
| 21:02 | < gnolam> | Not because the method is particularly hard. |
| 21:02 | <&Derakon> | Find a library that does it for you! |
| 21:02 | < gnolam> | But because mathematicians can't explain things for shit.~ |
| 21:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: as noted earlier, I cannot place constraints on where the rockets are placed, what angles they are placed at*, or what their maximum thrust is. |
| 21:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | *ok in practice anything but compass directions can fuck right off because of the shipbuilding complications it leads to, but the principle remains intact |
| 21:04 | < ErikMesoy> | ToxicFrog: So, if someone only puts a single engine on, what do you want the program to do? |
| 21:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | If the manouver cannot be satisfied even without constraints, nothing. |
| 21:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | If it can but doing so would violate constraints, either, although I'd prefer "violate constraints". |
| 21:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ideally I'd like to check this in the shipbuilder and emit a warning, but that doesn't prevent this from -ever- happening because bits can get shot off. |
| 21:07 | < ErikMesoy> | Now I have the mental image of a ship caught up in a spin because all its remaining engines are on one "side" and any thrust causes it to spin faster. |
| 21:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is a pretty common occurence in Captain Forever, actually~ |
| 21:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | Death usually follows swiftly at that point. |
| 21:09 | < ErikMesoy> | What range do you have on "number of thrusters"? Is it within reason to check every possible pair of thrusters to see if they'll give the wanted maneuvering? |
| 21:10 | < ErikMesoy> | For direction, or for rotation, considered separately, there's nothing three thrusters can't do that can't be done with two of those. (What you lose is magnitude.) |
| 21:11 | < ErikMesoy> | *nothing three thrusters CAN do that can't be done with two of those |
| 21:14 | < ErikMesoy> | Oh, hm, I snuck in an assumption that thrusters have a power spectrum. Though if they're binary on/off, you could keep one on for a while, and toggle the other... |
| 21:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: upper bound on number of thrusters: none. Pairs: why would they be paired? I can easily think of a scenario where you need three thrusters to balance each other out. |
| 21:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | And I explicitly mentioned earlier that thrusters have a power range. |
| 21:52 | < ErikMesoy> | ToxicFrog: Pairs because if three thrusters can total their vectors to push you in a given direction, one or two of them can push you the same direction. |
| 21:53 | < ErikMesoy> | You never need more than two thrusters for a given direction if the direction is at all possible. |
| 21:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Untrue. |
| 21:55 | < ErikMesoy> | Them's fighting words. *breaks out scratch paper and mechanical pencil for attempted proof* |
| 21:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | One moment while I draw a refutation of your assertion. |
| 21:57 | < ErikMesoy> | If the angle between two neighboring thrusters is greater than 180 degrees, thrust in that area cannot be achieved regardless of how many thrusters are used. If the angle between two neighboring thrusters is less than 180 degrees, some combination of those two thrusters can produce any direction in that arc. |
| 21:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7531542/thrust.svg |
| 21:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pretend that all the boxes and beams are the same size~ |
| 21:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Circles are thrusters. You want to move forward. |
| 21:58 | < ErikMesoy> | Fire the lower engine. This moves you forwards. |
| 21:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | There is only one thruster that will impart forward thrust; however, countering the torque imposed by that without also drifting to the side requires firing both other engines. |
| 21:58 | < ErikMesoy> | I did say I was considering direction and rotation separately. |
| 21:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh. |
| 21:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | So you aren't actually answering the question I asked~ |
| 21:59 | < ErikMesoy> | I am meandering in its general direction while performing sanity checks on my assumptions so that I don't end up answering the wrong question, which would arguably be worse than not yet answering the right question. :p |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | But, yeah, if I'm not using the simplex method suggested earlier, the easiest(?) approach is probably "assume all engines that contribute to the desired (translation|torque) fire at maximum, then figure out what other engines you need to fire to cancel excess (torque|translation)" |
| 22:02 | < ErikMesoy> | What I was getting towards was more like "figure out which set/pair of engines contribute to the highest ratio of [desired translation to unwanted torque] and vice versa" |
| 22:04 | < ErikMesoy> | Actually, since translation is a vector and torque is a real, do it the other way around. |
| 22:05 | < ErikMesoy> | Figure out how to get desired torque first. See how much spillover translation you get. Account for that when figuring out how to get desired translation. Remaining torque can then be solved by adjusting the initial configuration giving desired torque (usually). |
| 22:06 | < ErikMesoy> | Fascinating problem, messy solutions. |
| 22:09 | < ErikMesoy> | The design you drew appears to have no single way of moving forwards. One might consider "fire lower right engine until rotated 90 degrees, then fire left engine until rotated back". :p |
| 22:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | That will create a back-and-forth sideways motion as well. |
| 22:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Rotating it 45 degrees counterclockwise and then firing two of the engines at full works fine, though~ |
| 22:11 | < ErikMesoy> | Heh. |
| 22:27 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | Whoever pinged me before re: MFZ: All I have so far is "I'll get you rules just as soon as I can. They'll be followed by setting material, illustrations, building instructions (still haven't done the Hi-Leg!), and other little pieces." |
| 23:40 | | Noah [maoranma@Nightstar-03161ea1.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #code |
| --- Log closed Mon May 07 00:00:13 2012 |