| --- Log opened Mon Apr 09 00:00:07 2012 |
| 00:05 | <@TheWatcher> | AD: general rule of thumb is that your public git repo should include everything necessary for someone to replicate all features of your project (so code, build framework, resources, documentation, etc). And it should compile. Committing broken code to a public repo is a Bad Thing, in general, unless you have a good reason for it. |
| 00:06 | < celticminstrel> | Eclipse project files typically seem to be omitted... maybe because they contain personal settings or whatever. |
| 00:08 | <@AnnoDomini> | TheWatcher: Okay. |
| 00:09 | | * AnnoDomini goes to sleep. |
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| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | Hm |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | Qt is getting on the Metro bandwagon |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | I expect Qt4 will be sticking around a good long while as a separate project as a result~ |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2012/04/an-in-depth-look-at-qt-5-making-jav ascript-a-first-class-citizen-for-native-cross-platform-developme.ars |
| 03:03 | <@Tamber> | Like Gnome 2 is? |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | Not as much |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | It's more that Qt4 was a drastic improvement of Qt3 |
| 03:04 | <&McMartin> | But Qt4's stuff (The QWidget class hierarchy) is basically left static in Qt5 as Qt5 tries to solve entirely different problems. |
| 03:04 | <@Tamber> | Ahh |
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| 03:04 | <@Tamber> | So it's less "Stop treating our everything like a goddamn tablet, you idiots", and more a "It provides nothing useful."? |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | It's more "You know what Qt kinda sucks at? Tablety things except in specific cases. We should probably do something about that" |
| 03:05 | <@Tamber> | Hmm |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | If they want to wipe out QML and Qt Quick and all that and replace *those*, I'm pretty sure the Qt4 developer reaction will be "be our guest" |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | OTOH |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | If they break out the parts I *really* care about - the "Qt Platform Abstraction" thing sounds pretty promising - then it might be worth moving on to break Qt's history as being 3/4 of an OS as opposed to just a widget toolkit. |
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| 03:09 | <&McMartin> | Of the people doing terrible things to their UI layers, these guys are the ones with the best track record, though. |
| 03:09 | <&McMartin> | According to the article, their take on QWidget is "We've finished QWidget. It's done. Go us. Onto something else" |
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| 04:11 | < Noah> | What's the coder equivalent to writer's block? |
| 04:13 | <&Derakon> | Coder's block? *shrug* |
| 04:14 | <&Derakon> | If I've spent more than half an hour on a problem and still don't know how to solve it then it's a sign I need to relegate it to my subconscious. |
| 04:24 | | * Derakon tries to figure out how best to handle display logic here. |
| 04:24 | <&Derakon> | Every thing in the game needs to be represented by a colored ASCII symbol. |
| 04:25 | <&Derakon> | I could of course just stuff that information into the Thing class, but then I'd have display logic mixed into the game engine, which I'd really rather avoid. |
| 04:25 | <@Alek> | you're making a roguelike? XD |
| 04:25 | <&Derakon> | The alternative would seem to be to have the display layer have a mapping of object type/subtype to symbol and color... |
| 04:25 | <&Derakon> | Alek: well, at the moment. I doubt it'll hold my interest to completion. |
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| 04:26 | <&Derakon> | The issue with that mapping is that it'd have heavy redundancy, since most, but not all, items of a given type have the same symbol. |
| 04:26 | <&Derakon> | For example, all bladed melee weapons have the '|' symbol, but walls may be represented by #, %, etc. |
| 04:27 | <&Derakon> | Mm, I guess I have a layered series of mappings, from most to least specific? *shrug* |
| 04:28 | <&Derakon> | There's the added snarl that sometimes the item's color comes from its flavor (e.g. a green potion vs. a gold potion, which should get appropriate colors). |
| 04:28 | <@Alek> | eeq |
| 04:28 | <@Alek> | eew even |
| 04:29 | <&Derakon> | You can see why this isn't a trivial problem. |
| 04:29 | < Noah> | Well, I've decided what route I'm taken for my desktop launcher creator for mednafen (the pass it a rom file version), and I know what I need to do to code it... but I've been staring at idle for like a day down going DURRR DUHDURM |
| 04:30 | < Noah> | s/down/now |
| 04:32 | < Noah> | Maybe I should find a decent editor to spur my creation. What's good for python on Linux? |
| 04:32 | <&Derakon> | vim? S'what I use. |
| 04:32 | <&Derakon> | Practically any of the favored editors will have appropriate syntax highlighting and useful features and so on. |
| 04:33 | < Noah> | Yea, I suppose I should start learning vim or.... e... em... emaaaaa... EMACS. |
| 04:33 | < Noah> | Phew, that was hard, but there, I said it |
| 04:39 | < celticminstrel> | Can't you use the line-drawing characters for walls? |
| 04:40 | <&Derakon> | a) that's in MS-specific extended ASCII (or UTF-8, which I don't want to bother with right now), and b) I like symbols better. |
| 04:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Derakon: a unicode roguelike would be awesome.. |
| 04:42 | <&Derakon> | Support's readily available. It's just a matter of tracking down the appropriate codes. |
| 04:42 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Are you using curses? Or direct? |
| 04:42 | <&Derakon> | Direct text rendering with wxWidget's PaintDC. |
| 04:43 | < Rhamphoryncus> | oh |
| 04:43 | < Noah> | c) It isn't hardly supposed by Windows command line anymore |
| 04:44 | < Rhamphoryncus> | "But it hasn't happened yet, and the migration towards Unicode has created new challenges, resulting in "compatibility encodings" such as UTF-8." |
| 04:44 | | * Rhamphoryncus twitches |
| 04:45 | < Noah> | s/supposed/supported fuck I fial enrish tonite |
| 04:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hrm. This doc references wchar_t.. which is a gong show. |
| 04:47 | < Rhamphoryncus> | wchar_t can be as narrow as 8 bits. Useless :) |
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| 04:48 | < Noah1> | Blah |
| 04:48 | | * Noah1 dances with Noah |
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| 04:51 | < Rhamphoryncus> | wxString.FromUTF8(...) |
| 04:51 | < Rhamphoryncus> | (the default constructor uses the locale's encoding, which isn't good enough here) |
| 04:51 | <&Derakon> | In my case I can just outright use UTF-8 symbols in Python, and they'll get handled properly by WX automatically. |
| 04:52 | < Noah1> | Without fire and angst? Wow |
| 04:52 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Derakon: you mean with a unicode string? |
| 04:52 | <&Derakon> | E.g. u"\u03b" |
| 04:52 | <&Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 04:52 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yeah |
| 04:53 | <&Derakon> | (That's the symbol for mu, a.k.a. the micro- prefix) |
| 04:54 | <&Derakon> | (I use it a lot in microscopy programs) |
| 04:56 | < Rhamphoryncus> | You missed a digit |
| 04:56 | <&Derakon> | ...just testing~ |
| 04:58 | < Noah1> | yea sure |
| 04:58 | | Noah1 is now known as Noah |
| 04:58 | < Rhamphoryncus> | If you declare a unicode encoding on the file you can embed the character directly |
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| 04:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | (just make sure it's a unicode literal. Old versions of python didn't prevent byte strings from containing encoding-dependant data.) |
| 04:59 | <&Derakon> | When I was at Amazon we had a few files like that, and they always caused problems. |
| 04:59 | <&Derakon> | Improperly-set-up text editors would revert them to ASCII, and the source control had no idea what to do with them. |
| 04:59 | < Noah> | Because some things don't respect the encoding do they? |
| 04:59 | <&Derakon> | May be things are better now, but...seems easier to just put the encoding in there. |
| 05:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | u? U+00B5 |
| 05:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | On windows, perhaps. |
| 05:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | On linux I use a lot of ctrl-shift-u+0+0+b+5+space |
| 05:01 | <&McMartin> | Unicode does not change across platforms. |
| 05:01 | <&McMartin> | Also, all those code numbers look way too low |
| 05:02 | < Rhamphoryncus> | McMartin: windows editors are more likely to make stupid assumptions. Such as that BOM thing. |
| 05:02 | < Noah> | u |
| 05:02 | < Noah> | Wow, that works |
| 05:02 | < Noah> | Thanks Rhamphoryncus |
| 05:02 | <&McMartin> | ? should be at well over 256 as a codepoint. |
| 05:02 | <&Derakon> | As Rhamph noted, mine was wrong; it should be \u039c. |
| 05:02 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ?? |
| 05:02 | <&McMartin> | >>> hex(ord(u'?')) |
| 05:02 | <&McMartin> | '0x3bc' |
| 05:03 | < Noah> | ? |
| 05:03 | < Noah> | That works too |
| 05:03 | < Noah> | yay standards! |
| 05:04 | < Rhamphoryncus> | U+03bc is for greek text, U+00b5 is for the micro symbol |
| 05:04 | < Rhamphoryncus> | My font renders them the same but not all will |
| 05:04 | < Noah> | Ah, good point |
| 05:04 | <&Derakon> | ...dur, I was looking at the capital letter, yeah. |
| 05:04 | <&Derakon> | Lowercase is 03bc. |
| 05:05 | <&Derakon> | I am full of fail tonight. |
| 05:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Noah: my favourite is U+2212 |
| 05:05 | <&McMartin> | Huh, that implies the micro symbol is part of Latin-1, which I didn't think it was |
| 05:06 | <&McMartin> | Aha, there it is, right next to the pilcrow |
| 05:06 | < Noah> | - |
| 05:06 | < Noah> | -_- |
| 05:07 | <&Derakon> | https://plus. |
| 05:07 | <&Derakon> | google.com/109925364564856140495/posts |
| 05:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yup. Real negative sign. Looks a lot better when next to + than - does. |
| 05:07 | <&Derakon> | Er. Without the linebreak. |
| 05:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | https://plus.google.com/109925364564856140495/posts |
| 05:08 | <&Derakon> | It seemed apropos. |
| 05:08 | < Noah> | Derakon: God, wait to fail at ctrl-v enter |
| 05:08 | < Noah> | U+2A18 LOCH NESS MONSTER EMERGING FROM SINK DRAIN |
| 05:08 | | * Noah snorts |
| 05:10 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ? |
| 05:11 | <&McMartin> | That character doesn't appear to be in my font. |
| 05:11 | <&Derakon> | Worked for me! |
| 05:11 | < Noah> | Same |
| 05:11 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Unicode character "I USED TO BE A LATIN CAPITAL LETTER K LIKE YOU THEN I TOOK AN ARROW IN THE KNEE" (U+10182) |
| 05:11 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ? |
| 05:11 | < Rhamphoryncus> | doesn't work for me :( |
| 05:11 | < Rhamphoryncus> | http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/10182/index.htm |
| 05:12 | <&Derakon> | It's kinda hard to make out for me but again it did work. |
| 05:12 | < Noah> | I get a box that has numbers in it... 010182 |
| 05:12 | < Noah> | Oh |
| 05:12 | < Noah> | dur |
| 05:13 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Evil page. I keep scrolling down but it just loads more. Where am I supposed to stop?! |
| 05:13 | <&Derakon> | Eventually there won't be any more posts. |
| 05:14 | < Noah> | Rhamphoryncus: you too huh? I have that same issue at wallbase |
| 05:14 | < Noah> | "god damnit, I want to stop, but I'm compelled to scroll!" |
| 05:14 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Fuck that, I could be playing skyrim right now :P |
| 05:15 | < Noah> | ? |
| 05:15 | < Noah> | Back to the future |
| 05:15 | | * Rhamphoryncus goes off to kill some totally-evil-because-their-name-says-so bandits |
| 05:16 | < Noah> | ? |
| 05:16 | < Noah> | OH GOD WHAT I DO |
| 05:16 | <&Derakon> | Looks fine to me! |
| 05:16 | < Noah> | But my name is way over there >> |
| 05:16 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Fortunately xchat is too broken to do that properly |
| 05:16 | < Noah> | Pidgin isn't it |
| 05:16 | <&Derakon> | Not my fault your IRC client can't handle Lovecraftian horrors. |
| 05:16 | < Rhamphoryncus> | but if I try it myself the entry box uses the right side |
| 05:17 | < Noah> | I mean, it's still shows the box with the code in it, but it's on the right |
| 05:17 | < Noah> | ?What fun this will be. |
| 05:17 | < Noah> | Oh, puntucation fail |
| 05:20 | <&McMartin> | Rhamphoryncus: That actually used to be a Greek Capital Letter Kappa before it took the arrow to the knee |
| 05:21 | < Noah> | damnit, I have a Fixx song stuck in my head now |
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| 06:18 | < Noah> | So, I'm thinking about getting some fancy rats, and looking into housing for them, I came across a DIY site that explains that if repurpose an old cabinet, ie, like the tall ones that hold TVs and have a glass front, you can get something pretty massive for a fraction of the cost of something made specifically for the small pet sector |
| 06:24 | <@Alek> | mehbeh |
| 06:29 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 06:31 | < Noah> | One of those corner units for a TV would be awesome. There are two on Craigslist for less than 50 |
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| 06:59 | < Eri> | The problem with repurposing an old cabinet is that rats chew |
| 07:00 | < Eri> | And pretty soon you have a structurally unsound corner cabinet |
| 07:06 | < Noah> | True |
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| 07:08 | < Noah> | I have two 10 gallon aquariums, and I was thinking about making a tank topper that actually connects the two |
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| 09:38 | <@AnnoDomini> | Is there a git command to upload all tracked files that were changed? |
| 09:39 | <&jerith> | Upload? |
| 09:39 | <@AnnoDomini> | Er, commit? |
| 09:39 | <&jerith> | "git commit -a" will commit them all. |
| 09:39 | <&jerith> | Then "git push" will push to the remote repo. |
| 09:48 | <@AnnoDomini> | I see. |
| 09:48 | | * AnnoDomini tests the stuff cloned from the repository to compile and run. |
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| 10:37 | | * TheWatcher readsup, once again takes the opportunity to spit bile and hatred over the state of supporting non-ASCII in pretty much everything |
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| 12:07 | < Tarinaky> | TheWatcher: Maybe we shouldn't talk about ASCII in first year cs so much. |
| 12:07 | < Tarinaky> | Instead talk about UTF-8 and just treat ASCII as a degenerate case? |
| 12:07 | | * Tarinaky shifty eyes then hides |
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| 12:47 | < froztbyte> | http://mithrandi.net/blog/2008/04/i-learned-unicode-and-all-i-got-was-this-lousy -%EF%BF%BD/ is probably a good post to give to new people |
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| 19:40 | < gnolam> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3TAOYXT840 |
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| 21:43 | | * McMartin reads the CPU spec for Notch's new thing |
| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | This looks a whole lot like Glulx-16. |
| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | http://0x10c.com/doc/dcpu-16.txt |
| 21:46 | < celticminstrel> | Oh? |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | ^-- |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | Though it's probably more "both were inspired by the 68k" |
| 21:47 | < celticminstrel> | It doesn't look at all like the 68k to me. <_< |
| 21:47 | < Eri> | I don't really get what he's made. |
| 21:47 | < Eri> | Is this another assembly language? |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | Sort of |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | It's the assembly language for a virtual machine spec for the fully programmable ship's computer in this space game he's making. |
| 21:48 | < Eri> | Ah |
| 21:48 | < Eri> | That makes sense |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | He's also writing a BASIC for it, but honestly, this assembler is simple enough that no C programmer will need to. |
| 21:49 | < celticminstrel> | Need to what? |
| 21:50 | < Eri> | How long, do you think, until we start seeing some cross-compilers for this? Maybe a linux distro. |
| 21:50 | < celticminstrel> | There are like a hundred or something assemblers, emulators, and other tools already. |
| 21:50 | < Eri> | wot |
| 21:50 | < celticminstrel> | Listed on the forums. |
| 21:51 | < Eri> | Too much time on people's hands, I say |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: Use the BASIC stuff. |
| 21:52 | < celticminstrel> | Yup, pretty much. <_< |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | The assembler is good enough and - presumably - the tasks you'll be doing on it straightforward enough - that there's no reason to not just use the metal. |
| 21:52 | < celticminstrel> | One person even added it to MESS. |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | EAP |
| 21:52 | < celticminstrel> | ? |
| 21:52 | < Eri> | I shouldn't really say that, though. People do what they want. |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | Expand Acronym Please |
| 21:53 | < celticminstrel> | Oh. I dunno. |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | "What is MESS"? |
| 21:53 | < Eri> | Plus, this isn't some crazy fucked up implementation. I could see some kid being introduced to assembly with this, and probably programming in general |
| 21:54 | < Eri> | No different from me and my calculator-bot 1000 |
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| 21:54 | < celticminstrel> | It does share that with the 68k, yeah. |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | You'd be better off learning MIPS, probably, but you can certainly do worse than a cousin of 68k |
| 21:55 | < celticminstrel> | http://www.mess.org/ |
| 21:56 | < Eri> | MIPS, booo. |
| 21:56 | < Eri> | Arm is where it's at. |
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| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | Well, if you're teaching assembler, ARM has a handfull of crazytown bits like the mixed 32/16 modes |
| 21:57 | < Eri> | Yeah, I suppose, but you don't really go into the 16 bit mode unless you need serious code density |
| 21:57 | < Eri> | I think there's a performance hit, if I remember right. |
| 21:57 | < celticminstrel> | 68k is the one my university teaches. |
| 21:58 | < gnolam> | And mine. And I approve of that choice of architecture. |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | Does anything still mount it? |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | Or are we just old? |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | (I mostly did MIPS because Patterson was a professor at my school, but at least the PS1 was using the chip at the time.) |
| 22:01 | < celticminstrel> | Mount what? |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | 68k chips. |
| 22:01 | < celticminstrel> | Ah. Not sure. |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | I associate the 68k with the classic Mac and the Amiga 500. |
| 22:02 | < celticminstrel> | I don't know of anything. |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | The SNES and the Apple IIgs were 65816 >_> |
| 22:02 | | * McMartin is a retro nerd but usually from a bit before this era. |
| 22:02 | < celticminstrel> | The course I took did some stuff with PalmOS until they upgraded the computers to Windows 7 which apparently broke CodeWarrior. |
| 22:03 | < gnolam> | You could still buy 68k family CPUs as recently as a couple of years ago. |
| 22:03 | < gnolam> | Not bad for a processor that came out in... 1977, IIRC. |
| 22:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | I |
| 22:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm still baffled that Notch's approach to "I want programmable ships in my game" is "I will implement an entire microprocessor simulator" |
| 22:07 | < celticminstrel> | XD |
| 22:23 | <&McMartin> | gnolam: Likewise for z80s |
| 22:23 | <&McMartin> | They were, IIRC, 17 cents if you didn't buy in bulk |
| 22:23 | <&McMartin> | TF: Well, given the existence of Minecraft, is it that surprising that this is Notch's solution to it~ |
| 22:25 | < celticminstrel> | Doesn't seem that unreasonable a solution to me. <_< |
| 22:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: it is compared to "embed forth/lua/scheme/python/a tiny homebrew HLL", which is what every other game does |
| 22:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | (for the reason that doing so is a massive win in both user-friendliness, development effort, and performance) |
| 22:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Hell, even embedding perl would be better. |
| 22:44 | <@TheWatcher> | But, y'know, maybe he should finish minecraft first anyway~ |
| 22:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Last I checked he wasn't working on Minecraft in anything but a design capacity anymore; the team he hired has taken over the day to day coding of it. |
| 22:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thank god~ |
| 22:45 | <@TheWatcher> | heh. |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | Next: to get the DF guy to. |
| 22:46 | < celticminstrel> | What happened to Scrolls? |
| 22:54 | | Vash is now known as Vornicus |
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| 23:00 | < Eri> | I think scrolls was another guy in the team, as well |
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| --- Log closed Tue Apr 10 00:00:24 2012 |