| --- Log opened Sun Mar 18 00:00:54 2012 |
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| 01:39 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 01:54 | | * McMartin debates the virtues of doing it right the first time compared to getting the minimal app working end to end |
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| 03:40 | < maoranma> | Okay, so I installed Veekun's pokedex and have figured out how to access it as a python library, bringing the potential of my bot up many notches |
| 03:40 | < maoranma> | Like giving a laser rifle to neanderthal |
| 03:45 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 04:00 | <@Alek> | mao, does it support the Pokemon Game? |
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| 05:23 | | * Vornicus fiddles with file formats. Tries to decide how exactly to make this so there's a clear starting point here. |
| 05:24 | | * Vornicus actually tries to figure out what kind of data he will need to have in the level files /anyway/ |
| 05:27 | <~Vornicus> | Well okay so you have the map itself, which is all tiles. Then you have entities, which have all sorts of goodies associated with them, probably one per line, with types and stuff. |
| 05:27 | < maoranma> | Alek: What do you mean ]00:00[ <@Alek> mao, does it support the Pokemon Game?? |
| 05:27 | | maoranma is now known as Noah |
| 05:28 | <~Vornicus> | Difficulty with tiles is that having this in ASCII means I'm limited in how many different tiles I can get into any given area. |
| 05:28 | < Noah> | Vornicus: Namely...one? |
| 05:28 | <~Vornicus> | More like 95 |
| 05:29 | < Noah> | You mean 95 characters? |
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| 05:30 | < Noah> | Or you mean like a 10x9 grid? |
| 05:30 | <~Vornicus> | 95 disctinct characters |
| 05:30 | <~Vornicus> | only, spelled right. |
| 05:31 | < Noah> | distinct |
| 05:31 | <~Vornicus> | I don't honestly know how many tiles I'd need, but 95 honestly seems short. I think maybe csv might be a better idea in general. |
| 05:31 | < Noah> | I think had it right |
| 05:34 | <~Vornicus> | But I look at MInecraft - I know, I shouldn't - and it's got 124 different block IDs and then a lot of them get distinguished by an attribute value |
| 05:35 | < Noah> | You really shouldn't |
| 05:36 | <&Derakon> | What kinds of tiles are we talking about here? |
| 05:36 | <&Derakon> | Just different kinds of terrain? |
| 05:36 | <&Derakon> | Or are you trying to figure out tile facings as well? |
| 05:37 | <~Vornicus> | different kinds of terrain |
| 05:38 | <&Derakon> | ...you have a lot planned, then. |
| 05:39 | <~Vornicus> | Well, idunno. |
| 05:39 | <~Vornicus> | I'm trying to figure out how to make it somewhat extensible |
| 05:40 | <@Alek> | Noah: the PokeName Game, I mean. |
| 05:40 | <@Alek> | http://www.halolz.com/2010/10/15/the-pokename-game/ |
| 05:40 | <&Derakon> | For Jetblade I gave up on trying to make the level files look anything like the level. |
| 05:41 | < Noah> | Oh, haha |
| 05:41 | | Eri [Eri@Nightstar-3e5deec3.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #code |
| 05:41 | < Noah> | Derakon: I think he's just future proofing |
| 05:42 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah. I think I'm looking at, uh, CSV, because it lets me name things essentially arbitrarily. |
| 05:42 | <&Derakon> | Alternately you could design your resource files as first a mapping of characters to terrain types, and then the grid itself. |
| 05:43 | <~Vornicus> | Could do, indeed. |
| 05:43 | <&Derakon> | E.g. "for this section, # means wall, . means standard floor, ~ means water", etc. |
| 05:43 | <&Derakon> | Then as long as you don't need every single terrain type in a single section of map you should be fine. |
| 05:43 | <~Vornicus> | Would limit any individual zone -- not sure how big the zones are in general yet -- to under 100 tiles, but I should be ok. |
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| 05:46 | <&Derakon> | If your zones are of similar size to LttP "rooms" then you should be fine. |
| 05:46 | < Thalass> | good afternoon |
| 05:46 | <&Derakon> | Er, assuming you meant tile types, not total number of tiles. |
| 05:48 | < Noah> | It seems to me to code it the way that gives you the best options, hate to have to go back and recode it because your game design changed later |
| 05:49 | <~Vornicus> | LttP rooms are Actually Quite Large |
| 05:49 | <&Derakon> | Yes, but they're sufficiently thematically linked that you shouldn't need a huge selection of tiles for them. |
| 05:49 | < Noah> | Yea, depending on the area |
| 05:49 | <&Derakon> | Well, I'm assuming that your engine is automatically deciding tile facings and linking up tiles of different types. |
| 05:50 | < Noah> | Usually when passing into a new area, instead of scrolling, it does the screen shift, and the tileset changes |
| 05:50 | <&Derakon> | Anyway, I was going to bed. Good night. |
| 05:50 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
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| 05:51 | < Noah> | But, if you want to have say, a forest area, and a desert area, but a mixture of the two between them, you've have to have a way to identify and refer to the tilesets |
| 05:51 | < Noah> | I think minecraft calls it biomes |
| 05:54 | < Noah> | So each tile would be like "hey, Imma floor, but my biome is forest, so I look like forest_floor.png", then beside it, another type could be likem "hey, Imma floor too, but my biome is desert, so I look like desert_floor.png" |
| 05:54 | < Noah> | Except it might sound more emo since nothing ever grows on it |
| 05:56 | | Thalass [thalass@Nightstar-6a1db593.bigpond.net.au] has joined #code |
| 05:58 | < Thalass> | How crazy would it be to try to learn Java? After i've learned Python, of course. |
| 05:58 | < Noah> | It's like, I really want to dev for android |
| 05:58 | < Noah> | But I REAAALLY don't want to learn Java |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | What languages do you already know? |
| 05:59 | < Noah> | Python with anything you could call "ability" |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | Mmm |
| 05:59 | < Noah> | MSL (mIRC Scripting Language) |
| 05:59 | < Noah> | And I've dabbled in several other things at times |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | Mmm |
| 06:00 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, you actually probably *should* pick up Java, just so you have one language in that class in your quiver. |
| 06:00 | < Noah> | Except python, but everytime I look at java code, I shudder and hide |
| 06:00 | <&McMartin> | In learning Java, you'll also end up learning enough of C++ to be dangerous. >_> |
| 06:00 | <&McMartin> | You know Python, so Objective-C (the iOS language) will be a little closer to what you've done |
| 06:01 | < Noah> | Well, I'm probably picking up some perl next quarter, and I know there's some java later, so I don't have any choice but to learn it eventually |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | Perl is Python but uglier |
| 06:01 | < Noah> | Well, I don't have any iOS devices |
| 06:01 | < Noah> | Perl: There's more than one way to do it. (TM) |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | Java isn't a great language, but it's got very few things that are obviously bad |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | (And all of them are ugly) |
| 06:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Apart from type inconsistency and about 30% of the standard library, you mean~ |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | Most of the bad parts of Java are "it's missing these good things" |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | TF: The type inconsistency isn't unique enough to Java to make it bad. |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | 30% of the standard library beating par, though it is painful coming from Python |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | Seriously, the competition in this realm is C++ and C#. |
| 06:02 | < Noah> | How about coming from python as far as type consistency? |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | Python is on another planet |
| 06:03 | < Noah> | Oh great |
| 06:03 | <&McMartin> | This is actually why learning Java would be good for you - it's a new experience~ |
| 06:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: from my very limited use of C# I think I would prefer it to Java. |
| 06:03 | | * Noah kills McMartin in the face |
| 06:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would definitely prefer Scala, and if you're not into the whole functional programming thing you can still use it as Java Except Good. |
| 06:03 | <&McMartin> | TF: Yes, C# is unequivocally superior to Java in every respect but compatibility |
| 06:03 | < Noah> | The only thing between Java and C# is Java is better at cross-platform? |
| 06:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | (by the type inconstency I mean it uses Objects for everything, except where it uses primitives, and the standard library cannot decide which one to use, and auto(un)boxing doesn't work when you actually want it to) |
| 06:04 | <&McMartin> | C# is also a better language, having better scoping, better selection, better handling of function pointers, and support for procedural properties. |
| 06:04 | <&McMartin> | Oh right, also better boxing and unboxing |
| 06:04 | <&McMartin> | TF: So, it's about 40 times better than C++, the other industry leader, you say~ |
| 06:05 | <&McMartin> | (A whole lot of my bias comes from having TAed the same class, once in C++, and once in Java) |
| 06:05 | <&McMartin> | Noah: More specifically, python's is duck-typed everywhere so while it is "consistent", what "consistent" means is significantly weaker. |
| 06:06 | <&McMartin> | Java, C#, and to a lesser extent C++ and ObjC have stricter notions of type, and in particular are all "statically typed" |
| 06:06 | < Noah> | I'm guess that means if it looks like a duck...? |
| 06:06 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 06:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: well, yes |
| 06:07 | <&McMartin> | This is why I say Java's flaws are "lacks good things" instead of "has bad things". |
| 06:07 | < Noah> | I like my pythonic ducks, it's easy to keep them in a row |
| 06:07 | <&McMartin> | Noah: You have no statically typed languages in your repertoire right now; this is a fairly major gap in your experience. Java is, practically speaking, the best first language in that class to learn. |
| 06:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Really my main argument against Java is that it's just no fun to use, and I'm having a hard time thinking of anything you could teach in Java that you couldn't teach better in something else. |
| 06:08 | <&McMartin> | A proper class in OO design needs Something Like Java and Something Like Python. |
| 06:08 | < Noah> | McMartin: This is true, I've only dabbled in C/C++ |
| 06:08 | <&McMartin> | But TF is right; Java is pretty awful unless you have dedicated IDE support. I wouldn't dream of doing anything serious in it without something like Eclipse |
| 06:08 | <&McMartin> | Apparently IDEA is really great, but I haven't tried it. |
| 06:09 | < Noah> | Yea, I hear IDEA a lot. Though Eclipse more so, if mostly due to android |
| 06:09 | < Noah> | I wouldn't code java in say, ya know...notepad |
| 06:09 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 06:09 | <&McMartin> | My dabbling in Android dev was all with Eclipse |
| 06:10 | <&McMartin> | One nice thing about targeting Android is that you get to punt over half the standard library~ |
| 06:10 | < Noah> | haha |
| 06:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think my argument holds even if you're using an IDE, really~ |
| 06:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | That said, I am having a hard time coming up with object-oriented, inheritance-focused, OO languages that aren't Java, Scala, C#, and C++ |
| 06:10 | <&McMartin> | TF: I only take issue with the teachability stuff. |
| 06:10 | < Noah> | ToxicFrog: But what if you want your refigerator to tell the coffee maker that there's no milk before you go to make a pot?! |
| 06:11 | <&McMartin> | Java being, now, the halfwit stepchild of that family becomes an advantage |
| 06:11 | <&McMartin> | Because it's got very nearly the minimum required to do OO mechanics, and any design techniques you learn in Java will work in every other language in the class, even when they offer better ways of doing it. |
| 06:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Er, add "statically typed" in there as well |
| 06:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because if you remove that constraint you've got Python, SmallTalk, arguably JavaScript, probably at least two or three Lisp variants, etc in the list as well |
| 06:12 | <&McMartin> | CLOS is another "lives on another planet" thing |
| 06:12 | <&McMartin> | Worth learning, though since Inform 7 is close enough to its class, less urgent~ |
| 06:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | CLOS? |
| 06:12 | < Noah> | McMartin: Basically, Java is a knife, and once I figure out what all I can do with it, I can do the same things with a machete? |
| 06:12 | <&McMartin> | CLOS is multimethod-based and as such doesn't really have a notion of classes. |
| 06:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Common Lisp Object System? |
| 06:13 | <&McMartin> | Yup |
| 06:13 | <&McMartin> | Noah: Yeah. It's the smallest knife that's still worthy of the name. |
| 06:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Noah: Java is a block of wood, but once you figure out how to use it as a knife, actual knives will feel so much nicer~ |
| 06:13 | | * Thalass reads up |
| 06:13 | < Noah> | lol ToxicFrog |
| 06:13 | <&McMartin> | C# is the machete, there, C++ is a Swiss-army chainsaw, and Scala is an entire surgical theater. |
| 06:14 | < Thalass> | Wait, Noah asked the same question as me, or was taking the piss? :P |
| 06:14 | < Noah> | Thalass: Sort of. I just remarked my fear of Java |
| 06:14 | < Thalass> | ah heh |
| 06:16 | < Thalass> | I've been learning Python (and QT) specifically to write a few tools for my phone, which runs both fine. But i'm getting an android phone soon, and the android python scripting layer thing confuses me. :P |
| 06:16 | < Noah> | wait wait wait |
| 06:16 | < Noah> | wait |
| 06:16 | < Noah> | what? |
| 06:16 | < Noah> | Android python scripting layer? |
| 06:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | There's a Python implementation in/for Java, isn't there? Ergo there is Python for Android. |
| 06:17 | < Noah> | And what phone do you have that runs python and QT?! |
| 06:17 | <~Vornicus> | jython |
| 06:17 | < Thalass> | http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ |
| 06:18 | < Thalass> | Noah: Nokia N900. |
| 06:18 | < Noah> | Oh, that damn thing |
| 06:18 | < Noah> | http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ |
| 06:18 | < Noah> | Oh, you linked it |
| 06:19 | < Thalass> | haha |
| 06:19 | < Noah> | It's like some kind of supernerd phone that |
| 06:20 | < Thalass> | Yes. I'm probably not nerd enough for it, really, but i still like it. However the siren song of an android phone with a 5.3 inch screen, barometer, GPS, GLONASS, compass, etc is too great. |
| 06:21 | < Thalass> | The N900 lacks many sensors that are considered standard nowdays. Compass, for one. And it has an IR LED rather than proper Irda. |
| 06:24 | < Noah> | Yea, wasn't it super advanced when it was new? |
| 06:24 | < Thalass> | It was, aside from the hardware omissions. But that was a few years ago. |
| 06:25 | < Thalass> | brb. reboot |
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| 06:28 | < Noah> | This is kind of a weird question, can I listcomp on something inside of {}s for a string.format()? |
| 06:28 | <~Vornicus> | Not that I'm aware of |
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| 06:29 | < Noah> | print('{pokemon.name}, {[type.name for type in pokemon.types]}').format(pokemon=eevee) |
| 06:29 | < Noah> | Like if I do that, I get a tuple index out of range |
| 06:29 | < Noah> | And yes, I'll stop using the word "type" |
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| 08:01 | | * thalass installs the Android SDK, waits for the looong download |
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| 08:13 | < macdjord> | I'm on a Windows machine. When I go to a certain URL, I get redirected. I need to find out exactly how this redirect is happening - HTTP 301? HTTP 307? HTML <meta> tag? |
| 08:14 | < macdjord> | What tool do I use to perform an HTTP GET and see the result, without transparent redirection? |
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| 08:35 | < thalass> | Hrm. I suspect my netbook is not powerful enough to emulate a samsung galaxy note. :P |
| 08:56 | < thalass> | I have definitely hit a snag re: coding for android. |
| 09:02 | | macdjord is now known as macdjord|slep |
| 09:02 | | * TheWatcher readsup |
| 09:03 | <@TheWatcher> | mac: telnet <hostname> 80 and then issue the request: |
| 09:03 | <@TheWatcher> | GET /path/to/source HTTP/1.1 |
| 09:04 | <@TheWatcher> | Host: www.site.com |
| 09:04 | <@TheWatcher> | press return twice after that line, it'll show you the response |
| 09:05 | < macdjord|slep> | TheWatcher: "'telnet' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file." |
| 09:06 | < macdjord|slep> | (Note: Windows Machine.) |
| 09:06 | <@jerith> | http://curl.haxx.se/download.html |
| 09:06 | <@jerith> | Get curl from there. |
| 09:06 | <@jerith> | Then "curl -v <url>" |
| 09:06 | <@jerith> | Windows used to have telnet by default. I guess they stopped that. |
| 09:08 | < macdjord|slep> | jerith: Danke. |
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| 09:38 | <&McMartin> | jerith: Yeah, they stopped, and since telnet is awful, yay~ |
| 09:38 | <&McMartin> | PuTTY has a telnet mode. |
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| 10:17 | <@jerith> | McMartin: Sure, but PuTTY doesn't ship with Windows either... |
| 10:19 | <&McMartin> | True |
| 10:19 | <&McMartin> | Windows really is in dire need of something like ports. -_- |
| 10:19 | <&McMartin> | "The Entire Internet, and Google" is not really a good substitute. |
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| 10:43 | <@jerith> | How much of an issue is the dev environment for that kind of thing? |
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| 15:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: telnet is awful, but you can use it as netcat in a pinch, and since windows doesn't come with netcat either, dropping telnet from the image is boooo |
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| 17:55 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 17:57 | | * TheWatcher vaguely stabs the opengl ARB |
| 17:57 | < celticminstrel> | Is it in Tree-D? |
| 17:58 | < celticminstrel> | <_< |
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| 19:27 | | * TheWatcher decides to sod all this and just use opengl 2 |
| 19:27 | <@TheWatcher> | I'll worry about 3 and 4 when my graphics card actually supports it >.> |
| 19:50 | | macdjord|slep is now known as macdjord |
| 20:22 | < celticminstrel> | Aw, I guess that must've been a pretty bad pun if no-one actually responded... |
| 20:22 | | * Tamber drops a tree on celticminstrel. |
| 20:23 | < celticminstrel> | Meep! |
| 20:23 | | * celticminstrel hides in the arbour! |
| 20:26 | | KiMo is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
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| 22:09 | | * Vornicus fiddles. Okay, so next thing is to create a critter. |
| 22:09 | <~Vornicus> | And then control the critter, and have the camera follow it around. |
| 22:11 | <~Vornicus> | Well, actually, no, next thing is to rejigger the file format slightly. |
| 22:17 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 22:45 | < celticminstrel> | Yay, critters... |
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| 23:21 | | * Derakon sighs at TASVideos, where people are once again trying to make the argument that it should be possible to brute-force TAS generation. |
| 23:21 | <&Derakon> | (A four-input game that takes 30 frames to beat has over a quintillion possible combinations of inputs; if you could process 1 billion per second it would take you 36 years to generate the TAS) |
| 23:23 | <~Vornicus> | brute force won't help. On the other hand a computer that knows the rules can get very far with A*. We've seen that in the mario AI competitions. |
| 23:24 | <~Vornicus> | 2^120 is more like, um |
| 23:24 | <&Derakon> | Sure, but I doubt you'd find e.g. a walk-through-walls glitch using A* pathfinding. |
| 23:24 | <&Derakon> | Since it tends to assume that obstacles are, y'know, solid~ |
| 23:24 | <~Vornicus> | 10^36, or an undecillion. |
| 23:26 | <~Vornicus> | If you can process 1 billion attempts per second it would still take you 4.2E19 years, or approximately 3 billion times the age of the universe. |
| 23:27 | <~Vornicus> | 36 years is a long time but seriously don't sell this process short~ |
| 23:33 | | * Vornicus tries to figure out how to organize his code a little bit. |
| 23:40 | <~Vornicus> | Okay. RIght now, the camera should simply center on the hero; the hero gets built off the level data for now (this will probably need to change later though) and I guess is referenced in the camera. |
| 23:48 | <~Vornicus> | Then the hero has to get rendered, of course, that means he has to be in the list of entities that need rendering, and that he needs images. |
| 23:50 | <~Vornicus> | Which means I need a list of entities that need rendering. |
| --- Log closed Mon Mar 19 00:00:11 2012 |