| --- Log opened Wed Oct 12 00:00:51 2011 |
| 00:03 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 00:15 | | * Alek has $0 anyway. <_< |
| 00:17 | < Alek> | I like how, sometimes, in FEAR, if you hit an enemy hard enough, especially with a shotgun, sometimes his gun will be destroyed. or at least won't drop. >_> |
| 01:07 | < Stalker> | It's random? |
| 01:21 | < Alek> | seems to be? |
| 01:22 | < Alek> | it almost never happens, and so far only with shotgun. |
| 01:22 | < Alek> | very smart AI, though. >_> |
| 01:23 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 01:23 | < Alek> | but something I've found - if they're engaged in a programmed move, like leaping a barrier, they seem to be invulnerable until they finish that move. |
| 01:24 | < Reiver> | "Stop interfering with our scripted cutscene" |
| 01:25 | < Alek> | lol |
| 01:25 | < Alek> | but they look so vulnerable when doing that! it's supposed to be the perfect time to blast them away. XD |
| 01:26 | < Alek> | especially since the moment lasts near-forever with slo-mo on. |
| 01:28 | | Attilla [Some.Dude@Nightstar-f29f718d.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 01:30 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-202a5047.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [[NS] Quit: Z?] |
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| 03:18 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-14eb6405.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #code |
| 03:36 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
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| 03:48 | | Kazriko [kaz@4CA975.462904.08E9A2.992A2D] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 03:49 | | kazrikna is now known as Kazriko |
| 04:03 | | * Phox shuffles in |
| 04:03 | < Phox> | New face? |
| 04:04 | < Phox> | Oh, damn, I'm in the wrong room |
| 04:04 | < celticminstrel> | No, I still have my old one. |
| 04:08 | | * Kazriko shambles about. |
| 05:35 | | kwsn [kwsn@Nightstar-635d16fc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 05:37 | | * Derakon eyes Console, tries to figure out how to stop the Wacom tablet drivers from spamming the console with error messages every second because they can't find an attached tablet. |
| 05:39 | < Derakon> | I'd be perfectly fine with disabling the driver for now, but I can't find a way to do that short of uninstalling it entirely, which I'd rather not do. |
| 05:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | what OS? |
| 05:41 | < Derakon> | OSX. |
| 05:43 | < Derakon> | I think my problem is that it's trying to access some dynamically-downloaded content (e.g. a changelist, a stylesheet) that don't actually exist. |
| 05:43 | < Derakon> | Problem being that I can't just create them manually because I don't know what should be in them. |
| 05:43 | < Derakon> | ...it's looking for cygcrypto-0.9.7.dll, that doesn't look like an OSX thing. |
| 05:43 | < Derakon> | That looks like a Cygwin secure file transfer library. For Windows. |
| 05:44 | < Derakon> | Yeah, there's cygwin1.dll. |
| 05:44 | < Derakon> | What the crap. |
| 05:45 | | kwsn [kwsn@Nightstar-635d16fc.org] has joined #code |
| 05:52 | | Derakon [Derakon@Nightstar-f68d7eb4.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client exited] |
| 05:54 | | Derakon [Derakon@Nightstar-f68d7eb4.ca.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 05:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: ...on OSX? |
| 05:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would say "sounds like they ported it using wine", but in that case it's an OSX port using wine of a windows port using Cygwin of *nix software. |
| 05:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | My head hurts. |
| 05:56 | < Derakon> | Heh. |
| 05:57 | < McMartin> | Maybe they were using Cygwin so they could use POSIX stuff Windows either didn't have or that they didn't know Windows had. -_- |
| 05:57 | < Derakon> | Having now rebooted, it appears to not care that that directory with all that Windows stuff isn't there. |
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| 06:54 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
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| 09:33 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 13:17 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 13:18 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-202a5047.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #code |
| 13:37 | | * gnolam is doing SCIENCE! without lifting a finger. |
| 13:38 | | celticminstrel [celticminstre@Nightstar-5d22ab1d.cable.rogers.com] has joined #code |
| 13:46 | < gnolam> | (My beautiful little program is being used to run massive simulations \o/) |
| 13:50 | < TheWatcher> | (\o/ WISSENSCHAFT! ) |
| 14:01 | < gnolam> | Of course, now I sort of had to lift a finger. By telling the scientist responsible to disregard the massive "DO NOT HAND EDIT" warning in the input files for this particular situation. |
| 14:10 | | Bobsentme [Bobsentme@Nightstar-93b4feb0.try.wideopenwest.com] has left #code ["Leaving"] |
| 14:28 | | * kwsn swears |
| 14:28 | < kwsn> | fucking windows update |
| 14:38 | < gnolam> | Patch Tuesday. |
| 14:46 | < Vornicus-Latens> | but it's wednesday |
| 14:53 | < kwsn> | heh |
| 14:53 | < kwsn> | either way my computer rebooted on me at work |
| 16:11 | | Stalker [Z@Nightstar-3602cf5a.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [[NS] Quit: If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.] |
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| 18:21 | | Vornicus-Latens [vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:08 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 20:06 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
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| 21:22 | | AnnoDomini [annodomini@60F158.737D66.CA1918.CC7562] has joined #code |
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| 22:14 | < Namegduf> | Wow. |
| 22:15 | < Namegduf> | Dart is awful. |
| 22:19 | < gnolam> | And you can list 301 reasons why? |
| 22:20 | < Namegduf> | if (a) is legal for any variable a, but unless a is a boolean, it is always false |
| 22:20 | < Namegduf> | Numbers default to null, not zero. |
| 22:20 | < Namegduf> | Factories are part of the language specification. |
| 22:21 | < Namegduf> | The spec describes its target audience as "blissfully unaware of types". |
| 22:22 | < gnolam> | ... |
| 22:23 | < Namegduf> | To be strictly fair, only some of the audience, they were justifying a design decision to not complain in checked mode if you create an untyped generic typed thing |
| 22:23 | < Namegduf> | And the answer was because they didn't want parts which didn't use types to have to use type names at all, for that reason |
| 22:23 | < Namegduf> | Even when calling "typed APIs" |
| 22:28 | < Namegduf> | The type checking could be done with comment annotations and a link-like program in JS. Everything is just adding OO stuff, and the way they've gone about doing that is awful |
| 22:29 | < Namegduf> | (As types do not exist in production mode, and only result in warnings in checked) |
| 22:29 | < Namegduf> | *Everything else |
| 22:31 | < gnolam> | Tsk. |
| 22:32 | < Namegduf> | *lint-like |
| 22:32 | < gnolam> | And besides... IMO, the problem with javascript isn't the language itself. It's the DOM. |
| 22:34 | < McMartin> | Quite |
| 22:36 | | Vornicus [vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 23:04 | | * McMartin installs Subversion 1.7, glees |
| 23:05 | < McMartin> | Now featuring the sole feature I switched to git for: one metadirectory per checkout |
| 23:05 | < Namegduf> | Oh, good. |
| 23:05 | | * McMartin basically considers every other feature of DVCS systems to be evidence of incompetent project management >_> |
| 23:05 | < Tamber> | Heh. |
| 23:10 | < Tamber> | One of the questions I ask when considering VCS is "Can I still get my work done if the network's down between me and the 'upstream' server."; if not, then it's broken by design. |
| 23:12 | < celticminstrel> | What's the answer to that question for git/hg/svn? |
| 23:12 | | Stalker [Z@Nightstar-5aa18eaf.balk.dk] has quit [[NS] Quit: If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.] |
| 23:13 | < Tamber> | git: Yup, I can batch changes and send them when the net is back up. hg: Not used it, but I think it does the same. svn: No, it seems to hit the server for /everything/. |
| 23:16 | < Tamber> | cvs? CVS makes me want to punch myself in the face, because it hurts less than trying to even get a copy of the repo. ;) |
| 23:18 | < celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 23:18 | | Vornicus [vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 23:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: in general, the answer with a DCVS (git, hg, darcs, bzr) is "yes" and the answer with a centralized one (svn, cvs, p4) is "lolno". |
| 23:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although some CVCSes have -a few- operations that can be done offline. |
| 23:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | And yeah, at this point, having used git, using SVN makes me want to punch its designers in the face. |
| 23:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | The "one metadata directory per checkout" thing barely even registers under all the other problems. |
| 23:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | No support for tags and branches, terrible conflict and merge resolution, incredibly slow, requires access to the server for every operation no matter how trivial, the server itself is a pain in the ass to set up... |
| 23:23 | | Vornicus [vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 23:23 | < celticminstrel> | svn does support branches, doesn't it? |
| 23:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | SVN "supports branches" in the sense that, by convention, you create a branch by copying the working tree into a subdirectory of the "branches" directory. |
| 23:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tags work the same way. |
| 23:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | As far as SVN itself is concerned, it's all one huge working copy with a single linear history and a lot of duplicate files. |
| 23:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | IOW, it has the same level of branch support that, say, copying and renaming your project does: "do it yourself". |
| 23:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | (some SVN frontends do understand this convention and pretty it up. A bit.) |
| 23:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and git-svn is smart enough to pull SVN history apart into seperate lines for each branch, although I don't know what happens if you do the unthinkable^Wregrettably common and make a commit that updates trunk and a branch at the same time) |
| 23:27 | < Tamber> | My guess is you break something in horrible ways. |
| 23:28 | < Tamber> | And then some poor bastard upstream has to go hold a bucket under the server until it's finished barfing. |
| 23:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | My hope would be that git-svn emits two commits with identical timestamps and commit messages but updating different branches |
| 23:31 | < celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 23:36 | | Reiver [orthianz@3CF3A5.E1CD01.C6689C.33956A] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
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| 23:41 | < McMartin> | ToxicFrog: That is not in fact true |
| 23:41 | < McMartin> | SVN has supported merging at least nominally since 1.4; it has actually supported branch merges, cherry-picks, and reintegration since 1.6.0 |
| 23:42 | < McMartin> | So you can say "take these changesets, apply them again to this other part of the repository, and record that you have done so that if someone tries it again as part of a larger merge it is a no-op". |
| 23:42 | < McMartin> | What you cannot do with SVN is local branches, which fall under my rubric of "if you need to do this your project is poorly managed" |
| 23:44 | < Tamber> | Heh. |
| 23:44 | < celticminstrel> | cherry-pick is a standard operation? |
| 23:44 | < Tamber> | And how does the ability to isolate things to work on them make it "poorly managed"? |
| 23:44 | < McMartin> | That said, what idiot updates trunk and a branch at the same time; I've used SVN and CVS for like 15 years now and I've never seen anyone do this. |
| 23:45 | < McMartin> | Tamber: The part where it doesn't actually enter the collaborative workspace area in any form until it's done, making the progress uncontrolled, non-backed-up, and impossible to monitor while in progress. |
| 23:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: students do >.< |
| 23:45 | < Tamber> | Heh. |
| 23:46 | < McMartin> | I've never even used a repository where this was reasonably possible -_- |
| 23:46 | < Tamber> | So my refusal to force half a job on someone whilst I'm working on something means that my projects and those that I work on are poorly managed? |
| 23:46 | < McMartin> | Unless you also check out Every Branch That Has Ever Been Made Ever and continuously keep that up to date, which is punishment enough. |
| 23:46 | < McMartin> | Tamber: You should be producing a non-local branch. |
| 23:46 | < gnolam> | McMartin: ... and after tabbing back from a support page to this, I read that line as "suppository" |
| 23:46 | < Tamber> | McMartin, what, even for things such as experimental work? |
| 23:47 | < McMartin> | Yes, this is what branches are for. |
| 23:47 | < McMartin> | This way you can also, frex, ping a co-worker and say "hey, can you fire up the mcmartin branch and see if it works on your system too" before the actual reintegration. |
| 23:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: except this is a problem with SVN as well. |
| 23:47 | < McMartin> | Which, in the local branch case, is a commit. |
| 23:47 | < McMartin> | TF: Yes, the SVN equivalent would be "never commit ever" |
| 23:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | The people who make local branches in git and never push them until they're finished are the same people who start working on something in SVN and then don't commit it at all until they're done. |
| 23:47 | < McMartin> | This is also a bad idea. |
| 23:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which IMO is even worse. |
| 23:48 | < McMartin> | Yes, but people don't claim that never committing in SVN is a good idea. |
| 23:48 | < McMartin> | Making bad ideas easier is not a feature -_- |
| 23:48 | < Tamber> | Heh. |
| 23:48 | < Tamber> | So my projects are mismanaged, then; at least I don't have to fight my software to work /the way I feel is right for me/. |
| 23:49 | < Tamber> | Because that's even worse. |
| 23:49 | < McMartin> | Depends on how wrong you are~ |
| 23:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | See, IME it makes them harder, because you can do this with either VCS but at least in git, when they finally push it, there's a revision history. |
| 23:49 | < Tamber> | McMartin, well, I'm using local branches; that would seem to make me very wrong. |
| 23:49 | < McMartin> | Tamber: What does that buy you over tracking trunk and never pushing? |
| 23:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | (also, my main use of local branches is "stuff I want versioned but which should not be in the public repository", such as configuration files with site-specific testing information or wildly experimental features that I don't want other people to start using) |
| 23:50 | < Tamber> | Revision history. |
| 23:50 | < McMartin> | I didn't say "never committing" there, I said "never pushing" |
| 23:51 | < Tamber> | Oh, never pushing? Then it gives me no advantages other than not forcing the shite on everyone if I'm not sure it'll even /work/. |
| 23:51 | < McMartin> | If this results in a secret local branch, objection withdrawn on technical grounds but reinstated on "what do the designers think is supposed to happen" grounds. |
| 23:51 | < McMartin> | Tamber: So, uh, if it buys you nothing why is it a sine qua non? |
| 23:51 | < Tamber> | ? |
| 23:51 | < McMartin> | "Local branches are the awesome because I can do X" |
| 23:52 | < McMartin> | "What improvement does that give you over Y, which doesn't require local branches" |
| 23:52 | < Tamber> | Perhaps you should read what I said? "No advantages other than..." |
| 23:52 | < McMartin> | Yeah, but you don't force it on them if it's in a non-local branch either. |
| 23:52 | < McMartin> | That's why you branched in the first place, etc. |
| 23:52 | < Tamber> | Then lets chalk this up to a matter of opinion. You have yours. I have mine. And they both stink. ;) |
| 23:53 | < McMartin> | This isn't an opinion yet. |
| 23:53 | < McMartin> | I am genuinely confused. |
| 23:53 | < Tamber> | And I will continue to use local branches, and you can still hate me. :) |
| 23:53 | < McMartin> | I'm not even sure anymore what you are doing when you make local branches. |
| 23:53 | < McMartin> | Like, the process and workflow. |
| 23:53 | < McMartin> | You're only telling me the result, and it's the same result one gets if one follows a practice in Subversion that is universally agreed to be bad. |
| 23:53 | < McMartin> | But it's distributed and thus automatically better, but also impossible to document. |
| 23:53 | < Tamber> | I'm not saying the practice in SVN is bad; just that SVN is shite. |
| 23:54 | < Tamber> | And not because of this reason. |
| 23:54 | < jerith> | So, local branches. |
| 23:54 | < McMartin> | Yes, based on a version that shares not a single line of code with the past 15 releases of SVN, hence my skepticism of your claim. |
| 23:54 | < jerith> | They make me happy. |
| 23:54 | < Tamber> | McMartin, do you still have to hit the server for everything? |
| 23:54 | < McMartin> | jerith: But what do they do. How are they used. |
| 23:55 | < Tamber> | i.e. getting history, performing merges, etc? |
| 23:55 | < jerith> | They mean I don't have to hit the server for everything. |
| 23:55 | < McMartin> | jerith: No, that's "local repository" |
| 23:55 | < jerith> | I very seldom commit without pushing. |
| 23:55 | < McMartin> | That is not the same thing, AIUI, as a local branch. |
| 23:55 | < McMartin> | (It's also what makes git completely impractical for UQM, but that's a separate issue) |
| 23:55 | < Tamber> | If so, then it doesn't matter that it shares no code with the previous version, it is still a horrible, bletcherous process. |
| 23:55 | < McMartin> | WHAT IS THE PROCESS |
| 23:55 | < McMartin> | THIS IS MY QUESTION |
| 23:55 | < McMartin> | STOP TELLING ME THE RESULTS AND HOW GREAT THEY ARE, TELL ME WHAT YOU *DO* |
| 23:55 | < Tamber> | *sigh* |
| 23:55 | < Tamber> | Perhaps you should read what I'm saying, rather than shouting over me? |
| 23:56 | < McMartin> | I am, and you're telling me the results. |
| 23:56 | < McMartin> | I have only ever been able to use git productively in a manner that apes SVN. |
| 23:56 | < McMartin> | This is, you tell me, shite. |
| 23:56 | < jerith> | I use git-flow. |
| 23:56 | < Tamber> | *sigh* |
| 23:56 | < McMartin> | You are using some other process, that I have never heard, and never seen explained, but which is conceptually close to Never Committing, which is generally considered bad. |
| 23:56 | < Tamber> | DO YOU, or do you NOT, have to make a round trip to the server EVERY DAMN TIME YOU WANT TO CHECK HISTORY, or make a merge? |
| 23:56 | < McMartin> | Yet this, you say, is better. |
| 23:56 | < McMartin> | Yes, but what on earth does that have to do with making branches that never see the light of day outside of your machine? |
| 23:57 | < Tamber> | It doesn't. |
| 23:57 | < Tamber> | That was not my issue with SVN. |
| 23:57 | < McMartin> | The latter is the thing I'm saying is bad, and what is baffling me that you are saying is good. |
| 23:57 | < Tamber> | *sigh* |
| 23:57 | < jerith> | I use a workflow somewhat similar to the standard SVN workflow, but with vastly superior tools at my disposal |
| 23:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: a "local branch" is a branch comitted to the local repository, but not (or not yet) pushed to a remote one. |
| 23:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | My typical use case for this is "create branch for experimental idea, play with it to see if it works, and either push or delete the branch depending on the results" |
| 23:57 | < Tamber> | ^ |
| 23:58 | < Tamber> | Except I got ignored for this, and shouted at. |
| 23:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | So I get versioning if it does work, and if it doesn't work there aren't a dozen extra public commits ending with "oops, this was a terrible idea, deleting branch". |
| 23:58 | < Tamber> | Local branches: SRS BSNS. |
| 23:58 | < Tamber> | This is almost as bad as emacs vs. vi. |
| 23:58 | < Namegduf> | McMartin: You assume a single layer model, too. |
| 23:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | (the most trivial "why is this useful" is "because it lets me create new branches even if I don't have a network connection", but that's an advantage git has over SVN for every operation, so that's kind of cheating) |
| 23:59 | < Namegduf> | It's possible for subgroups to have branches for what they're working on separate to a major thing upstream of them |
| 23:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | If this doesn't answer your question, I'm genuinely confused as to what you're asking. |
| 23:59 | < Namegduf> | And thus maintain the upstream in a permanently buildable state |
| 23:59 | < McMartin> | Basically "OK, so you have this capability, why do you care, what are you doing" |
| 23:59 | < McMartin> | Which you, unlike Tamber, actually answered |
| 23:59 | < jerith> | Local branches are also good for when you need to juggle stuff. |
| 23:59 | < McMartin> | Tamber just said "I'm not putting stuff on the network", which is not an answer to my question. |
| --- Log closed Thu Oct 13 00:00:03 2011 |