| --- Log opened Thu Jun 30 00:00:21 2011 |
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| 05:04 | < kwsn> | DOOPEFISH LIVES |
| 05:11 | < Reiver> | ToxicFrog: That's awesome! Is getting the objects attached going to be too rough? |
| 05:12 | < ToxicFrog> | No; if anything that's the easy part |
| 05:12 | < ToxicFrog> | It basically consists of taking the object code I already have and splitting it into server and client parts |
| 05:14 | < Reiver> | Shiny. |
| 05:14 | < Reiver> | What do you intend to do for graphics? |
| 05:15 | < Reiver> | Is this Spellforce (Or whatever that crazy multi-hand wizards duel thing is called), or...? |
| 05:17 | < ToxicFrog> | Spellforce is the RTS/RPG hybrid by Phenomic. |
| 05:18 | < ToxicFrog> | You're thinking of Spellcast, the simultaneous turn-based game of dueling wizards by Andrew Plotkin (which is in turn based on a P&P game, Spellbinder, by Richard Bartle) |
| 05:18 | < ToxicFrog> | Which is a seperate project entirely, and is currently on the back burner as (1) I want finish Felt and (2) wxSpellcast mostly fulfills the role of a modern Spellcast client, for now. |
| 05:19 | < ToxicFrog> | To actually answer the question - I have public-domain graphics for playing cards and chess pieces. |
| 05:20 | < ToxicFrog> | For Descent, I have scans of Everything, but those are copyrighted and thus will not be publically released because I don't want to anger FFG. |
| 05:21 | < ToxicFrog> | For Ergo, the easiest approach - unless there are readily available graphics for it - would probably be for you to tell me what a deck consists of, and then I can postscript up some graphics. |
| 05:21 | < Kazriko> | descent? |
| 05:22 | < ToxicFrog> | Kazriko: Descent: Journeys in the Dark. A board game by Fantasy Flight Games (Arkham Horror, Ad Astra, Twilight Imperium) |
| 05:23 | < ToxicFrog> | Basically Dungeon Keeper: The Board Game. Four players are the Heroes, here to dungeon dive, kill monsters, and get loot; the fifth is the Keeper, assembling the dungeon around the heroes as they advance and placing monsters and traps for them to contend with. |
| 05:24 | < ToxicFrog> | Typically, the heroes win if they kill the boss and the keeper wins if he kills more than N heroes, where N depends on game difficulty settings. |
| 05:24 | < ToxicFrog> | There's also a campaign mode (Descent: the Road to Legend), which adds a world map and whatnot. |
| 05:25 | < ToxicFrog> | D:tRtL is the reason I started work on Felt in the first place. |
| 05:25 | < Reiver> | ToxicFrog: Postscripting is very easy. |
| 05:26 | < Reiver> | Graphics are not readily available, I could scan my deck but that'd be about it! |
| 05:26 | < ToxicFrog> | Reiver: I figure it would be, but I kind of need to know what the deck composition is first. |
| 05:26 | | * Reiver coughs |
| 05:26 | < Reiver> | http://wiki.starforge.co.uk/wiki/Ergo |
| 05:26 | < Reiver> | Look at the bottom~ |
| 05:27 | < Reiver> | (I can provide graphical representations there too if you'd like) |
| 05:27 | < Reiver> | Now where's a semi-decent non-brain-explodey vector graphics software. I need to make lots of arrows and shit. |
| 05:30 | < ToxicFrog> | xfig~ |
| 05:30 | < ToxicFrog> | And yeah, this is trivial with postscript. |
| 05:30 | < ToxicFrog> | Also, since we don't need to worry about the cards getting flipped around, I can use the proper symbols for everything \o/ |
| 05:31 | < ToxicFrog> | I can just tell poscript to draw A B C D ? ? -> ? ( large enough to fill the entire card. |
| 05:32 | < ToxicFrog> | Question about parens: it says there are six paren cards. Is each one ( and you flip as needed? Or does one paren card draw entitle you to place ( and )? |
| 05:32 | < ToxicFrog> | Or are there three ( and three )? |
| 05:33 | < Reiver> | Each Paren is an individual ( that can be flipped as desired. |
| 05:33 | < Reiver> | You need two in your hand to play them, but they're played (and screwed with) as a single card. |
| 05:33 | < Reiver> | Else you couldn't, eg, delete them |
| 05:33 | < ToxicFrog> | Right. |
| 05:34 | < Kazriko> | ok, different descent then. :) |
| 05:34 | < Reiver> | So it's actually technically possible to play four cards into the proof into one turn, then Ergo the sucker with your fifth card from your hand~ |
| 05:34 | < Reiver> | But, uh, things would have to be pretty batshit for that to ever happen ?? |
| 05:35 | < Reiver> | Does Felt intend to have much in the way of colours? |
| 05:35 | < ToxicFrog> | Kazriko: it's not a board game based on the FPS, if that's what you were wondering |
| 05:35 | < Reiver> | eg, a nice green background to represent a card table, etc? |
| 05:35 | < ToxicFrog> | Although I did once stat out the Material Defender for Descent: JitD~ |
| 05:36 | < Reiver> | Hey TF |
| 05:36 | < ToxicFrog> | Reiver: strictly speaking, that's a client-specific thing; in practice, yes, the reference implementation uses card table green as the background colour, all of the Descent scans are full colour, etc |
| 05:36 | < Reiver> | Can your postscript handle pretty fonts? |
| 05:37 | < ToxicFrog> | (and when a player picks up something, it gets a glowing border in their colour) |
| 05:37 | < Reiver> | Excellent |
| 05:37 | < ToxicFrog> | IIRC, postscript can used any installed font for rendering. |
| 05:37 | < Reiver> | Even more excellent, part of Ergos lovelyness is that it uses big dramatic letters that makes it all look so serious~ |
| 05:38 | < ToxicFrog> | Aah, here we go: http://www.funkyhorror.net/toxicfrog/shinies/descent.png |
| 05:38 | < Reiver> | (Pretty backgrounds are nice too, but feh) |
| 05:38 | < Reiver> | ... ahahahaha, what |
| 05:38 | | * Reiver eyes. Is that actually vaugely balanced? |
| 05:38 | < ToxicFrog> | Yes; Descent comes with rules for building your own hero, and this is consistent with them. |
| 05:39 | < Reiver> | That's glorious |
| 05:39 | < ToxicFrog> | (note the "3" in the lower left; that's basically the hero level. It goes from 1-3, with 3 being the most powerful heroes, but also giving the keeper more points if they die) |
| 05:39 | < Reiver> | Aah |
| 05:39 | < Reiver> | No blowy up the spaceship then! |
| 05:39 | < ToxicFrog> | I went with an average durability, very high speed, ranged attacker with intrinsic flight. |
| 05:40 | < ToxicFrog> | And yes, that is the Descent (the FPS) font ?? |
| 05:40 | < Reiver> | Sounds about right |
| 05:40 | < Reiver> | (That's all Flight does? Immunity to falling down?) |
| 05:43 | < ToxicFrog> | Um. The "immunity to pit traps" is in addition to the intrinsic flight. |
| 05:43 | < ToxicFrog> | IIRC, flight lets you ignore some terrain objects and pass through locations containing monsters, but it's been a while |
| 05:44 | < Reiver> | Oh, nice |
| 05:46 | < Reiver> | hm so |
| 05:46 | < Reiver> | LOGIC OPERATORS FONTS DO YOU SPEAK IT |
| 05:47 | < ToxicFrog> | Flight: flying creatures may pass freely through obstacles and enemies (although they cannot end their turn on the same square as either). Flying creatures may pass through or end their turn on a square containing a hazard without being damaged by it." |
| 05:47 | < Reiver> | ... Sweet |
| 05:47 | < Reiver> | And this is a ranged character. |
| 05:47 | < Reiver> | So it runs like crazy, hides somewhere safe and shoots things to death? |
| 05:48 | | * Derakon looks up. |
| 05:48 | < Derakon> | You stuck a ship from the videogame Descent into the boardgame Descent? |
| 05:49 | < kwsn> | yo dawg |
| 05:49 | < ToxicFrog> | Derakon: I may have >.> |
| 05:50 | < ToxicFrog> | Haven't actually played with it, but it's in spec |
| 05:50 | < Derakon> | Heh. |
| 05:50 | < Derakon> | (Incidentally: Celestial Star: so broken) |
| 05:51 | < Reiver> | OK, so X often stands in for variables |
| 05:51 | < Reiver> | Is there a standin for operators? |
| 05:51 | < Reiver> | ... Other than ? |
| 05:51 | < Derakon> | f and g? |
| 05:51 | < Derakon> | E.g. f(a, b) could mean "a + b". |
| 05:51 | < Reiver> | Hn, I see |
| 05:51 | < Derakon> | There's also a plus within a circle symbol that I seem to recall seeing used. |
| 05:51 | | * Reiver goes hunting a pretty looking f then |
| 05:54 | < Kazriko> | Hmm. This anime would make a very interesting board game... Eden of the East. 12 players given 10 billion yen, told to save the country however they can. |
| 05:55 | < ToxicFrog> | Reiver: what do you need it for? |
| 05:57 | < ToxicFrog> | I think it may be sleep time. |
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| 06:04 | < kw\t-2> | night all |
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| 10:30 | < Reiver> | ToxicFrog: A wildcard for logical operators. |
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| 14:00 | < gnolam> | ... seriously, what's up with Linux GUI designers and minimum sizes? |
| 14:01 | < gnolam> | They seem to feel some pathological need for it. |
| 14:03 | < TheWatcher> | I guess they think it's just a small thing to add. |
| 14:04 | <@froztbyte> | are we talking anything GTK here? |
| 14:04 | <@froztbyte> | (because fuck the GTK and GNOME with rusty sporks) |
| 14:04 | < gnolam> | Yes. |
| 14:05 | <@froztbyte> | I've got a dislike of GTK/GNOME that's almost equivalent with a crusade |
| 14:05 | < gnolam> | "Oh, I don't see the need for /anyone/ to make this panel any smaller than HUMONGOUS. Or this window. So I'll add a minimum size. It's not like anyone uses netbooks today, is it?" |
| 14:08 | < gnolam> | froztbyte: with good reason |
| 14:09 | <@froztbyte> | yup |
| 14:16 | < gnolam> | Also, /what the fuck/, gmusicbrowser? |
| 14:16 | < gnolam> | If I start typing a search, that probably means I want to queue something. |
| 14:17 | < gnolam> | That does not give you permission to /start switching songs/. |
| 14:17 | <@froztbyte> | just switch to KDE |
| 14:18 | < gnolam> | "Oh, I can't see the currently playing song in the list anymore! I better switch to the first one I /can/ see, immediately!" |
| 14:18 | < gnolam> | A) Netbook |
| 14:18 | < gnolam> | B) KDE 4 is an absolute clusterfuck. |
| 14:18 | <@froztbyte> | KDE's netbook mode is *fantastic* |
| 14:18 | <@froztbyte> | seriously |
| 14:18 | < gnolam> | Which is a damn shame. |
| 14:18 | < gnolam> | Because I really really liked KDE 3. |
| 14:19 | <@froztbyte> | I actually tried out 10.04 or something with both GNOME and KDE on my now-missing eeepc 701-w |
| 14:19 | <@froztbyte> | KDE's netbook mode == usable, even had a bit of animation going on, could play music in background without things blowing up |
| 14:20 | <@froztbyte> | GNOME's netbook mode shell thing turd == unable, slow, made mplayer lag every 10s |
| 14:20 | < gnolam> | I can't stand so-called netbook UIs. Give me a full-fledged environment, dammit - just remove all the cruft that swamps the computer's puny CPU. |
| 14:21 | <@froztbyte> | that's what makes the KDE netbook mode nice |
| 14:21 | < gnolam> | So. XFCE is the best I've found so far. |
| 14:21 | < gnolam> | It's still not /good/, but at least I can stand it. |
| 14:22 | <@froztbyte> | it's the same menu implementation, but the layout is redone to bit better with the screen profiles |
| 14:22 | < gnolam> | Anyway. Does anyone know if there's a music player for Linux that doesn't suck? |
| 14:22 | <@froztbyte> | seriously, try it out. even if just booting from a live image |
| 14:22 | <@froztbyte> | gnolam: there is none. |
| 14:22 | <@froztbyte> | quodlibet comes close, but has some annoying things |
| 14:22 | <@froztbyte> | and the rest have all turned into gigantic hogs and itunes-alikes |
| 14:23 | < gnolam> | I tried a couple of versions of KDE on this thing. All were too slow to be usable. |
| 14:23 | < gnolam> | And I assume you mean "Plasma" with the KDE netbook thingy? Tried it. Just the kind of "netbook UI" I can't stand. |
| 14:23 | < gnolam> | And it too ran like molasses. |
| 14:25 | < gnolam> | Or, well, I managed to get my first try at KDE 4 into a usable configuration, performance-wise. |
| 14:25 | < gnolam> | Sadly, the actual user experience was like hammering nails into my scrotum. |
| 14:25 | <@froztbyte> | :( |
| 14:25 | <@froztbyte> | that sucks |
| 14:26 | <@froztbyte> | I seem to have an awesome experience with KDE in general |
| 14:26 | <@froztbyte> | but that fits right in with how my RDF always seems to work |
| 14:28 | < gnolam> | When the first thing a desktop environment throws at you is how it has "integrated microblogging", you know it's going to be full of fail. :P |
| 14:28 | <@froztbyte> | oh, I just ignore/remove all that shit |
| 14:29 | <@froztbyte> | they're going for the "integrated life" thing, but I like keeping some things separate :) |
| 14:29 | <@froztbyte> | as to feedback and interfaces, KDE > GNOME in my experience |
| 14:34 | < gnolam> | Again: it's a damn shame. Because KDE 3 was /good/. I could've imagined myself using it as my primary environment. |
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| 14:54 | < Namegduf> | gnolam: On music, I like Audacious. |
| 14:54 | < Namegduf> | On the "classic" UI if you want a Winamp-like. |
| 14:55 | < Namegduf> | I actually use Spotify nowadays, but it was my choice. |
| 15:06 | < jerith> | Gnome/Unity made it very hard to remove the "integrated microblogging" and related cruft. |
| 15:20 | | * Vornicus-Latens cannot stand winamp, particularly its gui. |
| 15:21 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Well, okay, it's gui is the only real thing wrong with it but there's not much else to /go/ wrong. |
| 15:21 | < Namegduf> | That IS a good thing. |
| 15:21 | < Namegduf> | I mean, iTunes demonstrates how you can manage to have other things go wrong. |
| 15:21 | < Namegduf> | I mean, iTunes demonstrates how you can manage to have other things go wrong. |
| 15:21 | < Namegduf> | Er |
| 15:21 | < Namegduf> | But the GUI is a matter of preference, yes. |
| 15:22 | < jerith> | Two years later, I'm /still/ looking for a suitable music player for Mac OS. |
| 15:22 | < Namegduf> | I used to like it, then I switched to a tiling WM and turned off classic and went for a simple GTK UI, which is still quite nice and had none of that library crap that infests modern players. |
| 15:23 | < Namegduf> | The fixed size, small window was nice for a regular WM for me, but in a tiling WM it meant floating, which is The Devil. |
| 15:23 | < Vornicus-Latens> | I want something with, well, a non-shit UI, file organization and filter/sort by metadata, and something like iTunes DJ/Party Shuffle/What Have You |
| 15:23 | < jerith> | I like my audio player hiding out of sight on a different workspace, and controlled by global keybindings. |
| 15:24 | < Namegduf> | And then I moved to Spotify anyway, which is like an iTunes clone that is massively faster despite pulling all its information off the web. |
| 15:24 | < Namegduf> | You can do that with Audacious; I didn't use keybindings, I just switched workspace and back, but it supports them. |
| 15:24 | < jerith> | The latter is what has ruled out every single music player I've tried that will actually play music. |
| 15:24 | < jerith> | (A surprising number of them fail even at that.) |
| 15:24 | < Namegduf> | Wow, really? |
| 15:25 | < Namegduf> | Hmm, no keyboard buttons for the job? |
| 15:25 | < jerith> | Songbird has had an open bug to fix its instance detection for two years. |
| 15:25 | < Namegduf> | Or do they not support them? |
| 15:26 | < Namegduf> | Songbird is that one where someone looked inside the massive many-layered structure of Mozilla's codebase, went mad, and decided to try to build a music player with things they found in there, right? |
| 15:26 | < jerith> | I don't care if I have to hit a URL, use AppleScript, write bash, talk dbus, whatever. I just want to be able to set up a way to pause my music without leaving my terminal or editor or whatever. |
| 15:26 | | * Namegduf hasn't tried it, but has, well, not exactly been sold on trying. |
| 15:26 | < jerith> | Yeah, that's Songbird. |
| 15:27 | < jerith> | I don't care what it looks like, because I spend very little time looking at it. |
| 15:27 | < Namegduf> | That's weird. |
| 15:28 | < Namegduf> | I mean, lack of support from anything. |
| 15:28 | < Namegduf> | Even with AppleScript or such. |
| 15:28 | < Namegduf> | Does OS X not have a standard for media hotkeys? |
| 15:28 | < jerith> | Everyone expects you to click on buttons in the UI. |
| 15:28 | < Namegduf> | Windows and Linux do. |
| 15:28 | < jerith> | OS X does. They work with iTunes. |
| 15:28 | < Namegduf> | And nothing else? |
| 15:29 | < Namegduf> | That's pretty awful. |
| 15:29 | < jerith> | There aren't very many apps trying to compete with iTunes, so pretty much everything else is multi-platform. |
| 15:29 | < jerith> | And those don't talk AppleScript, because there's very little demand. |
| 15:29 | < Namegduf> | Hmm, and they don't support the native keys. |
| 15:29 | < jerith> | I don't want to use the native keys. I want to bind my own. |
| 15:30 | < jerith> | (I switch between three different keyboards, and they all have their media keys in different places.) |
| 15:30 | < Namegduf> | Should be possible to script something to emit media keys when you press regular ones. |
| 15:31 | < jerith> | Perhaps, but I'd have to figure out how to do that while leaving the media keys disabled. |
| 15:31 | < Namegduf> | Seems there's bigger issues, anyway: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2122639?start=0&tstart=0 |
| 15:31 | < jerith> | (Because one of the keyboards has them on the edges where they get knocked accidentally.) |
| 15:31 | < Namegduf> | They really ARE iTunes only. |
| 15:32 | < Namegduf> | Well, rather, they have behaviour that makes using them with anything else horrid, even though it is possible. |
| 15:33 | < jerith> | SongBird actually looked the best. You can control it by calling the binary with parameters. |
| 15:33 | < Namegduf> | That sounds like something which could be used to build a solution. |
| 15:33 | < Namegduf> | I'm surprised so little else supports that kinda thing. |
| 15:34 | < jerith> | Except on OS X, that results in a horrible modal dialog explaining that SongBird is already running and I can't have another one. |
| 15:34 | < jerith> | Even if I pass the "yes, I know there's another one running, do your thing anyway" parameter. |
| 15:34 | < Namegduf> | Ah, I see. |
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| 15:50 | < gnolam> | Honestly, I'm just looking for a player that's |
| 15:50 | < gnolam> | * Light-weight |
| 15:51 | < gnolam> | No "we really want to be iTunes" behemoths. |
| 15:51 | < gnolam> | * Usable on a netbook |
| 15:52 | < gnolam> | * Has a UI that isn't full of fail (e.g. autoswitching songs when searching) |
| 15:52 | < gnolam> | * Free from obvious, crippling bugs (*cough*Exaile*cough*) |
| 15:52 | < gnolam> | I'll check out Audacious. But I'm not hopeful. :P |
| 16:19 | <@froztbyte> | audacious is a crappy attempt at being xmms |
| 16:20 | <@froztbyte> | <jerith> SongBird actually looked the best. You can control it by calling the binary with parameters. |
| 16:20 | <@froztbyte> | it was a very nice idea |
| 16:20 | <@froztbyte> | except for the where it was based on Slowtech(C) |
| 16:20 | <@froztbyte> | for the bit* |
| 16:21 | < Namegduf> | froztbyte: It was originally a fork of a fork of XMMS, so the classic UI is very similar. |
| 16:21 | < Namegduf> | The default GTK UI now is nothing like. |
| 16:21 | < Namegduf> | Apparently the thing they forked off ALSO went unmaintained |
| 16:21 | <@froztbyte> | <jerith> I don't care if I have to hit a URL, use AppleScript, write bash, talk dbus, whatever. I just want to be able to set up a way to pause my music without leaving my terminal or editor or whatever. |
| 16:21 | < Namegduf> | So yeah. |
| 16:22 | <@froztbyte> | amarok (1) could do that with dcop and amarok2 can do it with dbus |
| 16:22 | <@froztbyte> | but amarok (1) is far out of date (there's a fork which has some hope), and amarok2 is basically nearly as shitty as itunes |
| 16:23 | <@froztbyte> | Namegduf: ah, you mentioned GTK. thereby completely eliminating any chance of me giving a shit about it. |
| 16:23 | < celticminstrel> | I'd kinda like a "we really want to be iTunes behemoth" that actually worked better than iTunes. :/ |
| 16:23 | <@froztbyte> | firefox is the only reason I still have GTK stuff on my computers |
| 16:24 | <@froztbyte> | (and I'll be *very* happy when I can rid of it all. *spit*) |
| 16:25 | < Namegduf> | froztbyte: That's fine, although given I wasn't talking to you originally it'd be nice if you'd try to avoid injecting just to say you don't give a shit about it. |
| 16:26 | | * Namegduf uses a bit of both GTK and Qt, but prefers GTK because Qt has awful, awful startup times due to the large numbers of symbols causing very slow linking, or that's the reason suggested by that guy who actually knows more about Qt he was talking to, anyway. |
| 16:28 | <@froztbyte> | it would be nice if all these players made out of fail could DIAF, but I don't think that'll happen for as long as people to to emulate someone else's stuff, or keep an old player alive |
| 16:29 | <@froztbyte> | so we get to stick with crappy music players \o/ |
| 16:30 | < Namegduf> | You got ideas for a new different design you'd like to see, then? |
| 16:30 | <@froztbyte> | yes |
| 16:30 | <@froztbyte> | (both visual design and architecture) |
| 16:31 | < Namegduf> | Give it a try, then, new ideas are good. |
| 16:32 | <@froztbyte> | I've poked at it a little bit, but I'm already "overcommitted" to some things |
| 16:32 | < Namegduf> | Ah. |
| 16:32 | <@froztbyte> | at the moment I'm just trying to keep up with the other stuff |
| 16:32 | <@froztbyte> | instead of getting to a point where I make a half-broken thing that I can't update, which would effectively turn it into the very sort of software I hate |
| 16:35 | <@froztbyte> | but, that said |
| 16:35 | <@froztbyte> | componentize! |
| 16:36 | <@froztbyte> | make the actual player part separate from the UI part, then you won't be stuck with some silly aftereffect choice |
| 16:37 | <@froztbyte> | an example (in my opinion) of the latter is how Amarok exposes the following methods to dbus: Play, Pause, PlayPause |
| 16:37 | <@froztbyte> | Pause and PlayPause have roughly the same effect |
| 16:38 | <@froztbyte> | (the former can't be used when your music is stopped) |
| 16:38 | <@froztbyte> | (the UI itself then only exposes the Stop feature in a menu) |
| 16:39 | <@froztbyte> | oh, and those methods are exposed in two, perhaps three, different areas of the dbus whatchamacallits |
| 16:40 | <@froztbyte> | rather just have one sane API with all the necessary controls, and everything speaks that language then |
| 16:40 | < Namegduf> | Makes sense. |
| 16:40 | <@froztbyte> | this obviously being stock-standard advice, but lots of apps seem to not do it |
| 16:41 | < Namegduf> | Would you say this kind of IPC setup is better than implementing the player as a library, linked against by UIs? |
| 16:42 | < Namegduf> | It obviously handles multiple simultaneous UIs, and permits the backend to persist even if the UI is closed temporarily. |
| 16:42 | <@froztbyte> | and then there's other annoying crap like notifications. do you *really* need to pop up a gigantic balloon to tell me the next track on the album I queued just started playing? |
| 16:42 | <@froztbyte> | if it was on random, sure, a more prominent notification perhaps |
| 16:43 | <@froztbyte> | sequential plays? nothx. |
| 16:43 | < Namegduf> | No, although I've never seen that be non-optional. |
| 16:43 | <@froztbyte> | Namegduf: mmmm....I would say so, yes |
| 16:43 | <@froztbyte> | if only by a little bit |
| 16:44 | < Namegduf> | Notifications on all desktop OSes annoy me nowadays, since I've used Android. |
| 16:44 | <@froztbyte> | my two main reasons would be 1) you aren't sure about how well people implement the functionality provided by the lib (although you could "guide" it by design, I guess) |
| 16:44 | < Namegduf> | For all its faults, the notification bar is *really* good at the job. |
| 16:44 | < Namegduf> | Popping up over what I'm currently doing is not, ever |
| 16:44 | < Namegduf> | And is disruptive |
| 16:44 | <@froztbyte> | and 2) API changes in different versions become more hairy if you've got multiple clients linked to the same lib |
| 16:44 | <@froztbyte> | lib changes version, some apps might update, some not |
| 16:45 | <@froztbyte> | I guess that's a solvable problem too, though |
| 16:45 | <@froztbyte> | but I'm presuming most people to be entirely stupid and careless when writing against it |
| 16:45 | < Namegduf> | Identical and similarly solvable for IPC |
| 16:46 | < Namegduf> | In either case you need to define a carefully designed API and retain backwards compatibility as far as possible. |
| 16:46 | <@froztbyte> | Namegduf: yeah, the android notification UI is pretty good |
| 16:46 | < Namegduf> | Or just statically link. |
| 16:46 | <@froztbyte> | I think a lot of the usability improvement in android came about because people didn't just try to wedge a desktop OS Into a smaller display |
| 16:46 | < Namegduf> | I hate waste, but the number of alternative UIs you're going to have is low, and we have this invention called "package management" that handles ensuring all necessary binaries are updated when the library changes. |
| 16:47 | < Namegduf> | Yeah, I agree. |
| 16:47 | <@froztbyte> | but rather sat down, said "okay, this needs to be a new thing, how do we do it?" and then went forth from there |
| 16:47 | < Namegduf> | Android apps are not massively internally consistent, and it has its flaws. |
| 16:47 | < Namegduf> | No luser has ever remembered that the menu button exists for more than a minute |
| 16:47 | <@froztbyte> | it's still a reasonably "new" platform |
| 16:47 | < Namegduf> | And even I use it by not finding the functionality anywhere else, then giving menu a try. |
| 16:47 | < Namegduf> | On first use. |
| 16:48 | <@froztbyte> | since it's only been getting lots of attention in the last year or so, I guess |
| 16:48 | < Namegduf> | But a bunch of the ideas were good ones. |
| 16:48 | <@froztbyte> | maybe 2 years |
| 16:48 | <@froztbyte> | I'm seeing some sorts of best practice emerging over some of the apps I'm trying out lately, so the design ideas seem to be permeating slowly but surely |
| 16:49 | <@froztbyte> | Namegduf: re package management, it's only big on the *nixes |
| 16:49 | <@froztbyte> | ideally a piece of software like this you could port to windows without much fuss |
| 16:49 | < Namegduf> | froztbyte: Shared library upgrading is broken on Windows anyway. |
| 16:50 | <@froztbyte> | oh, the other nice thing about if you were to use some form of IPC: you could have the player and the client on two entirely different physical things |
| 16:50 | < Namegduf> | froztbyte: Everything just dumps the libraries it needs in its own directly and has its own copy. |
| 16:50 | <@froztbyte> | which is quite useful |
| 16:50 | <@froztbyte> | I've fiddled a bit with AnyRemote + randomapp, but it's usually quite a hackjob |
| 16:59 | < celticminstrel> | "Downloading Mac OS X Update... 354.2 MB of 354.2 MB -- About -2147483648 hours" |
| 16:59 | <@froztbyte> | teehee |
| 17:09 | < celticminstrel> | I should look into trying to get Time Machine to run, say, every Sunday at noon. |
| 17:11 | < celticminstrel> | Every hour is too much (it causes lag), but manually is not often enough (I always forget). |
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| 17:21 | < gnolam> | /quit Arrived! |
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| 17:34 | <@froztbyte> | he used that /quit pretty quickly after it arrived |
| 17:42 | < Tamber> | Well, you don't want it to go off. They're best used fresh. |
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| 22:20 | < Derakon> | Stats question, mes amis. |
| 22:20 | < Derakon> | We have cameras that take 512x512 images. |
| 22:21 | < Derakon> | Each pixel in that 512x512 field has a distinct offset, e.g. it always registers two counts high, or four counts low, or whatever. |
| 22:21 | < Derakon> | (A "count" being one quanta of measurement) |
| 22:22 | < Vornicus> | So you have a static noise field that your images are coming through. |
| 22:22 | < Derakon> | You can correct for this by taking a whole bunch of images of blackness, averaging them together, and subtracting it from your actual data. |
| 22:22 | < Derakon> | My question is: how do I figure out how many images I need to take to get a good average? |
| 22:22 | < Derakon> | Vorn: yeah, that sounds about right. |
| 22:23 | < Derakon> | More generally, for a given pixel, how do I tell when I have a good average? |
| 22:23 | < Vornicus> | You have a good average when the standard deviation is less than 1/2 a quantum. |
| 22:24 | < Derakon> | Standard deviation of the large number of images, for that pixel? |
| 22:25 | < Vornicus> | Yeah. You keep adding images until that standard deviation is tiny -- as you said, there is a "right answer" here, with an sd of 0, so your sd on each pixel should drop through the floor. |
| 22:25 | < Vornicus> | THough I must ask |
| 22:25 | < Vornicus> | Blackness, as opposed to a middle grey? |
| 22:26 | < Derakon> | Yeah, you want zero signal. |
| 22:26 | < Vornicus> | But then you won't see "registers four counts low" because you're floored. |
| 22:27 | < Vornicus> | I mean most sensors I know won't send back negative values because that's nonsensical. |
| 22:27 | < Derakon> | There's a fixed offset. |
| 22:27 | < Vornicus> | aha |
| 22:27 | < Derakon> | IIRC the baseline is 1000. |
| 22:29 | | * Derakon finds himself writing "average standard deviation". |
| 22:30 | < Derakon> | (Taking the stddev of each pixel and averaging them together) |
| 22:30 | < Derakon> | Thanks for the help, Vorn. |
| 22:32 | < Derakon> | I suppose actually the metric I should concern myself with is maximum standard deviation. |
| 22:32 | < Derakon> | Since that represents the pixel that is hardest to pin down. |
| 22:38 | < Vornicus> | Yeah. Though none should be particularly hard to pin down. |
| 22:38 | < Vornicus> | What's your full range? |
| 22:40 | < Vornicus> | (of possible outputs for a single pixel, that is) |
| 22:42 | < Vornicus> | It occurs to me that there's a relatively sensible method of answering this with Actual Mathematics. |
| 22:43 | < Derakon> | Theoretically values can go up to 2^16. |
| 22:43 | < Derakon> | In practice the range is about 10 for dark images. |
| 22:43 | | * Derakon eyes his output. |
| 22:44 | < Derakon> | I'm getting maximum standard deviations of around 2.2 after 375 images. |
| 22:44 | < Derakon> | Which seems like it ought to be more than enough. |
| 22:44 | < Vornicus> | Oh, gah, you have true noise in there too. |
| 22:45 | < Vornicus> | RIght right right, this is a confidence interval. DIvide that by the square root of the number of images you've taken. |
| 22:45 | < Derakon> | Divide the stddev? |
| 22:45 | < Vornicus> | Yes |
| 22:46 | < Derakon> | Roger wilco. |
| 22:47 | < Derakon> | Something like this then: http://paste.ubuntu.com/636035/ |
| 22:48 | < Derakon> | It occurs to me I don't know how much experience you have with numpy. |
| 22:49 | < Vornicus> | I never figured out wtf to /install/ in order to use numpy. or numeric. or whatever the fuck it is. |
| 22:49 | < Derakon> | numeric is the old deprecated numpy. |
| 22:49 | < Derakon> | Installing numpy should just be a matter of downloading the installer and running it. |
| 22:50 | < Vornicus> | It wasn't, when I needed it. |
| 22:50 | < Derakon> | Weird. I've never had an issue before. |
| 22:50 | < Vornicus> | At that, it was still half being called numeric |
| 22:50 | < Vornicus> | This Was A While Ago. |
| 22:50 | < Derakon> | How long ago was this...ah. |
| 22:50 | < Derakon> | Last time I encountered numeric was when I was working on Fusillade, and even then the docs I was reading were out of date. |
| 22:51 | < Derakon> | So once the confidence interval gets below half a quanta I should be good to go? |
| 22:51 | < Derakon> | 'Cause that's taking, like, 50 images. Compare my boss suggesting I do 500. |
| 22:52 | < Vornicus> | Yeah. Technically what you're doing is (once you've got thie number there) multiplying that thing by 2 to get your actual confidence interval, because you want 95% and 2 SDs gets you 95.4% |
| 22:52 | < Derakon> | Ah. |
| 22:54 | | * Derakon quickly looks up how to log conversations in irssi after the fact. |
| 22:54 | < Derakon> | Turns out to just be a matter of "/window log on" and "/lastlog" |
| 23:02 | | * Derakon sighs at his boss. |
| 23:02 | < Derakon> | Told him what I'd found so far, he doesn't care, wants to take 512 images because he likes overkill. |
| 23:07 | <@froztbyte> | you and your math |
| 23:07 | <@froztbyte> | do as I say, slave! |
| 23:08 | <@froztbyte> | there was some nice blog post about that the other day though. (that == using stats to figure out how many samples you require for a specific task, as opposed to some arb value you pick yourself) |
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| 23:15 | | * TheWatcher stabs jQuery |
| 23:17 | | * Tamber watches it bleed ick all over the floor. |
| 23:20 | < Vornicus> | ack. Sorry, der, that should actually be quanta/4, which should get you to about 200. |
| 23:21 | < Derakon> | Round about 125-150, looks like. At least for this data. |
| 23:22 | < Vornicus> | (Error was that this gives you a MoE but the confidence interval is +/- MoE and that's a width of 2MoE.) |
| 23:24 | < Vornicus> | Also your boss has the wrong instincts on this one. What you want, instead of A Power Of 2, is A Square Number. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jul 01 00:00:36 2011 |