| --- Log opened Thu Jun 23 00:00:33 2011 |
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| 01:14 | < gnolam> | # Ceci n'est pas une subprocess.PIPE |
| 01:14 | < McMartin[travels]> | -_- |
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| 13:04 | | * TheWatcher idly writes 'sub d00msayer { ... }' |
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| 14:22 | < gnolam> | "This is not a bug - in fact it is well known to us experienced code developers. |
| 14:22 | < gnolam> | [...] |
| 14:22 | < gnolam> | Guess this tidbit of info never made it into the manual..." |
| 14:24 | < gnolam> | >_< |
| 14:25 | < gnolam> | Do you know what I call undocumented behavior? A BUG. |
| 14:25 | < celticminstrel> | What if it's intentional behaviour? |
| 14:30 | < TheWatcher> | Aaah, undocumented features. |
| 14:32 | < gnolam> | Intended or not: until they document that behavior for the end user, it's a bug. |
| 14:33 | < gnolam> | But now, so many things about that program become clear. :P |
| 14:58 | < McMartin[travels]> | And, soon I shall be off to Pittsburgh |
| 14:58 | < McMartin[travels]> | Where I hear there will even be Internets |
| 14:59 | < celticminstrel> | More than one, even? |
| 14:59 | < McMartin[travels]> | Crud. I was hoping to find a jerith, but I guess timezones are even worse now |
| 15:00 | < McMartin[travels]> | cm: aye. I have just my phone here |
| 15:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | gnolam: it's a doc bug though, not a program bug |
| 15:01 | < McMartin[travels]> | (I'm working on some I7 library stuff, wanted to run dome usability things past him) |
| 15:01 | < McMartin[travels]> | CRITICAL GRAPHICS ERROR: I can't land on Jupiter |
| 15:03 | < McMartin[travels]> | Anyway, my new conversation libraries look very promising |
| 15:07 | < TheWatcher> | McM: he's in the same timezone as me, so |
| 15:08 | < McMartin[travels]> | I guess we'll see |
| 15:09 | | * gnolam blarghs. |
| 15:09 | < McMartin[travels]> | In theory I'm closer noe, but my schrdule isn't as bad either |
| 15:09 | < gnolam> | So... is there a way to start and stop subprocesses in Python that actually works? :P |
| 15:10 | < McMartin[travels]> | popen and friends have long served me eell, as has os.system |
| 15:12 | < gnolam> | os.system is exactly the same as C's system(), right? In that case, it won't work - it can only start a process, not stop it. |
| 15:14 | < gnolam> | And the documentation is bitching that popen is deprecated, and that I should use subprocess instead. |
| 15:14 | < gnolam> | Which does not in fact work. :P |
| 15:15 | < celticminstrel> | Subprocess has worked for me... |
| 15:16 | < gnolam> | It can start processes. |
| 15:16 | < gnolam> | It just fails spectacularly at terminating them. |
| 15:16 | < gnolam> | WindowsError: [Error 5] Access is denied |
| 15:16 | < celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 15:16 | < celticminstrel> | Well, I'm not on Windows... |
| 15:22 | | * gnolam stabs Python. |
| 15:23 | < McMartin[travels]> | Well |
| 15:23 | < McMartin[travels]> | Do you have any reason to believe you wouldn't get that error in C? |
| 15:24 | < McMartin[travels]> | Access Denied is up there with File Not Found |
| 15:24 | < McMartin[travels]> | Are you running python as Admin? |
| 15:25 | < McMartin[travels]> | In the Windows sense of "with the exyra elevation", not the unix sense of "logged in as member of admin group" |
| 15:26 | < gnolam> | No. |
| 15:26 | < gnolam> | And I shouldn't have. |
| 15:26 | < McMartin[travels]> | If you're trying to kill Other People's Processes, Windows has Opinions about nonsetuid programs doing it |
| 15:26 | < gnolam> | This is Python doing Something Wrong. |
| 15:27 | < gnolam> | A subprocess started by one process should damn well be killable by that process. |
| 15:27 | < McMartin[travels]> | TerminateProcess is allowed to give error 5. |
| 15:28 | < McMartin[travels]> | I'm on a phone here and cannot experiment, but if your process handle wasn't opened for termination you could get that in C, too. |
| 15:29 | < gnolam> | ... i.e. Python is Doing Something Wrong. |
| 15:31 | < McMartin[travels]> | Or you're asking it to write througj a file handle you opened for read. |
| 15:33 | < gnolam> | What. |
| 15:33 | < McMartin[travels]> | Metaphor |
| 15:33 | < McMartin[travels]> | Same error class |
| 15:34 | < McMartin[travels]> | I made this file, I can write to it |
| 15:34 | < McMartin[travels]> | But I get error 5 |
| 15:34 | < McMartin[travels]> | C is broken |
| 15:34 | < McMartin[travels]> | Or rather, I gave fopen the wrong args. |
| 15:35 | < McMartin[travels]> | This would still be my first place to lool. |
| 15:35 | < McMartin[travels]> | look. |
| 15:39 | < gnolam> | Sadly, there is no actuallyAllowMeToTerminate argument for subprocess.Popen(). |
| 15:45 | < McMartin[travels]> | how, exactly, are you asking for the kill, amd what vrsion of python is it |
| 15:47 | < gnolam> | self._process.terminate() |
| 15:47 | < gnolam> | 2.6. |
| 15:47 | < McMartin[travels]> | fixed in 2.7, also, use os.kill |
| 15:51 | < McMartin[travels]> | which takes a pid and should therefore be more self contained |
| 15:52 | < McMartin[travels]> | but which only claims to work in Windows as of 2.7 |
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| 17:53 | < jerith> | McMartin[travels]: It's here that you were looking for me, though. |
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| 19:45 | < McMartin[travels]> | jerith: Yes. |
| 19:46 | < McMartin[travels]> | I've been working on a new system for doing the QBC-style stuff |
| 19:46 | < McMartin[travels]> | Are you interested in seeing prototypes, and if so, do you have an email address I could shoot it to? |
| 19:46 | < McMartin[travels]> | (It's not ready quite yet, but probably will be some time over th enext three days) |
| 19:47 | < jerith> | If you have something I can play with on the plane, I'll probably poke at it a bit. |
| 19:47 | < jerith> | (Say 36 hours from now.) |
| 19:47 | < jerith> | Otherwise I might not get to it for a week or two. |
| 19:48 | < jerith> | I'm definitely interested, though. |
| 19:51 | < McMartin[travels]> | OK |
| 19:51 | < McMartin[travels]> | I have no idea how it's going to work out |
| 19:51 | < McMartin[travels]> | On the one hand, wedding rehearsal dinner tonight and probably Huge Mess |
| 19:51 | < jerith> | Battle Stations needs a lot of dialog, and QBC is a bit clunky in its present form. |
| 19:51 | < McMartin[travels]> | On the other hand, as a random guest I have a hotel room with Internet and might be able to just retire from the world. |
| 19:51 | < McMartin[travels]> | Yeah |
| 19:51 | < McMartin[travels]> | I7 has lists now and I'm taking full advantage of it |
| 19:52 | < McMartin[travels]> | Also, ISTR you aren't using the modality parts of QBC/RQ as-is, and that's the bit I haven't gotten working right yet |
| 19:52 | < McMartin[travels]> | (ALso syncing to characters, which I have no good answer for yet) |
| 19:52 | < jerith> | Oh, so those are new. I looked at them recently and thought "why didn't I know this before?" |
| 19:52 | < jerith> | Modality parts? |
| 19:53 | < jerith> | And syncing to characters? |
| 19:53 | < McMartin[travels]> | My prototype has this thing where every time you TALK TO a character their whole tree resets. |
| 19:53 | < jerith> | If you mean adding stuff to people you aren't in a conversation with, it works fine the the released version. |
| 19:53 | < jerith> | Oh, you're talking about the experimental version. |
| 19:53 | < McMartin[travels]> | Yeah |
| 19:54 | < McMartin[travels]> | Fixing the rest either requires a manual sync step or some serious heinousness that might be easy to get wrong. |
| 19:54 | < McMartin[travels]> | (Since one thing you can now do is say "run a conversation on {a, b, c}) |
| 19:54 | < McMartin[travels]> | (And so there's no character o table to update with results) |
| 19:55 | < jerith> | What are a, b and c in that context? |
| 19:55 | < McMartin[travels]> | Lines in the quip table, of which there is now only one. |
| 19:55 | < McMartin[travels]> | It's id, prompt, response text, followup list. |
| 19:55 | < jerith> | Ah. |
| 19:56 | < McMartin[travels]> | Followup list is optional and is what gets added in at that place when you're done |
| 19:56 | < McMartin[travels]> | So nothing means "it goes away", a list with just its own ID means "it regenerates", and followup questions slot in LucasArts style. |
| 19:56 | < McMartin[travels]> | Instead of hanging things off the quipping activity you do your actions by putting in say statements with side effects, which is also how you disable stuff. |
| 19:58 | < McMartin[travels]> | I think as an enhancement to QBC it's already strictly better except for the reset issue, |
| 19:58 | < jerith> | Sounds cool. |
| 19:58 | < McMartin[travels]> | but it needs better generalization for display for general use, and it also needs to be able to handle what TADS 3 calls "conversation nodes" more cleanly. |
| 19:59 | < jerith> | Okay, it's 20h00 and my digestive system is informing me in no uncertain terms that it's supper time. |
| 19:59 | < McMartin[travels]> | Righto |
| 19:59 | < McMartin[travels]> | I'll shoot you an email with what I have some time tonight (EST). |
| 20:00 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 20:04 | < jerith> | Cool. |
| 20:05 | < McMartin[travels]> | But yeah, it sounds already like what I have is A Big Improement |
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| 20:30 | | * McMartin[travels] has an hour, fires up Inform. |
| 20:32 | < gnoblargh> | McMartin[travels]: 2.7 does indeed appear to fix it. |
| 20:32 | < gnoblargh> | Thanks. |
| 20:33 | < McMartin[travels]> | Are you using local docs by any cahnce? |
| 20:33 | < McMartin[travels]> | If so, I have just formulated a new rule: "it's a bad idea to rely on version-local docs because the online ones will have the cahngelogs" |
| 20:33 | | * McMartin[travels] basically worked this one out by looking up exactly what was going on and noticing the footnotes, so. |
| 20:34 | < McMartin[travels]> | But yeah, woo working |
| 20:34 | < McMartin[travels]> | (And yeah, they fucked it up in 2.6, they were sending a Ctrl-C to the process instead of a proper sigterm, and these are Not The Same Thing in Windows( |
| 20:35 | < McMartin[travels]> | That ERROR_ACCESS_DENIED was probably "no, you don't get access to this process's console if any" |
| 20:40 | < McMartin[travels]> | Woo, compiler crashes and internal errors |
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| 21:11 | < McMartin[travels]> | Woo, sync works now. |
| 21:11 | < McMartin[travels]> | I may have something to shoot off to you guys much sooner than I expected. |
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| 21:29 | < jerith> | \o/ |
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| 22:02 | < gnoblargh> | Yay, generating input files, running the simulation, and viewing the output all work now. |
| 22:03 | < gnoblargh> | ... huh. Pair production. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jun 24 00:00:47 2011 |