--- Log opened Tue Mar 08 00:00:50 2011 |
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01:18 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | HOORAY PEEK |
01:18 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | reminds me, I never quite figured out why poke was a command but peek was a function. |
01:19 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
01:21 | < ToxicFrog> | Because poke modifies state but has no return value, whereas peek returns a value but lacks side effects. |
01:22 | < ToxicFrog> | You don't see it much these days, but some languages distinguish between "procedure" (does not return anything) and "function" (does). |
01:23 | <@Vornicus> | oh right. |
01:24 | <@Vornicus> | only language I can think of that does that that's in relatively common use is PL/SQL |
01:24 | <@Vornicus> | Which is a shrieking horror. |
01:27 | <@McMartin> | Um |
01:27 | <@McMartin> | Python |
01:27 | <@McMartin> | At least up to 2.x |
01:27 | <@McMartin> | print, try, etc. are statements |
01:28 | <@Vornicus> | well, okay. print. try is a compound and only counts if you think if does. |
01:32 | < celticminstrel> | Pascal. |
01:33 | <@Vornicus> | It occurs to me that I am actually unaware of any program that is made in Pascal and notes this fact. |
01:34 | < celticminstrel> | The only one I can think of is a fairly old Mac game, to be fair. |
01:34 | | * Vornicus is a person who plays Fairly Old Mac Games. |
01:34 | < celticminstrel> | It was called Goldpusher. |
01:35 | <@Vornicus> | That one I never heard of. |
01:35 | < celticminstrel> | The author ended up releasing the source code, though not under an open source license. |
01:36 | <@McMartin> | Tyrian was written in Pascal. |
01:36 | < celticminstrel> | But it relies on Symantec GUI libraries or something, so I couldn't do much with it. :( |
01:36 | <@McMartin> | This was noted once he provided the source to the OpenTyrian folks. |
01:36 | <@Vornicus> | ...let me guess, the OpenTyrian folks were writing in C? |
01:36 | < celticminstrel> | I imagine a lot of old Mac programs were written in Pascal. |
01:36 | <@McMartin> | s/were/are/ |
01:37 | <@McMartin> | And yeah, they translated it to C. |
01:37 | <@Vornicus> | celmin: that is probably true... I remember that I had a pascal thingy on my old mac. |
01:37 | < ToxicFrog> | XVI32 is written in Delphi, which IIRC is a commercial Pascal variant |
01:37 | <@McMartin> | Yes |
01:37 | <@Vornicus> | I couldn't figure out how to get it to do either procedures /or/ functions. But I was 12. |
01:38 | <@McMartin> | C# is in many was a spiritual successor to Delphi, actually |
01:38 | <@McMartin> | *ways |
01:38 | < celticminstrel> | I might have been "programming" at 12. In Logo, most likely. |
01:38 | <@Vornicus> | I was pretty good in BASIC. |
01:38 | <@McMartin> | I was definitely hacking GW-BASIC by then. |
01:38 | <@Vornicus> | well, c64/apple basic. |
01:38 | < celticminstrel> | Possibly HyperTalk. |
01:38 | <@McMartin> | Starting to pick up assembler, which I had to hand-assemble and poke into my C64's memory by hand. |
01:39 | | * McMartin also had access to an AT. |
01:39 | <@Vornicus> | Man, hypercard. |
01:39 | <@Vornicus> | That was some good stuff. |
01:40 | < ToxicFrog> | Hmm. 12. I was dabbling in C and Java at that point, I think, but not really understanding it. |
01:40 | | * ToxicFrog checks the Crossfire changelog |
01:40 | < celticminstrel> | I wish it were still around. None of the clones I've noticed are quite the same. |
01:41 | <@McMartin> | When I was 12, Ultima VI was about to come out. -_- |
01:41 | <@McMartin> | I wouldn't actually encounter it for another three years. |
01:42 | < ToxicFrog> | Hmm. Crossfire 0.94.3 came out in 1998. I would have been 13 then, and that's when I started getting seriously into C - I wanted to modify it. |
01:42 | < ToxicFrog> | So at 12, I would have been working on net3d vehicle definitions, which are written in bastardized C, but not really understanding it as C. |
01:43 | <@McMartin> | I think I might have had access to K&R1 at 12. ANSI C was brand new and nothing truly supported it yet. |
01:43 | <@McMartin> | Man, I'm old. |
01:43 | <@McMartin> | Turbo Pascal 7 was the new hotness for instructional teaching then, and it was advanced enough to be a better language for OO development than C++ was at the time. |
01:43 | | * McMartin says this looking back with older eyes. |
01:43 | < ToxicFrog> | Not sure when I started dabbling in Java. |
01:43 | <@McMartin> | I started Java in late '96. |
01:44 | < ToxicFrog> | It was around the time of one of the releases of MKS Web Integrity, but I don't remember which one. |
01:44 | <@McMartin> | Wrote an Applet to implement a PARANOIA-themed version of Daleks. |
01:44 | < ToxicFrog> | (it's the one where if you triple-click on the logo you get a fancy credit roll, and I know this because I helped implement it. I've got one of the original master discs on my bookshelf.) |
01:44 | < ToxicFrog> | (looking back on that, goddamn, it would have been so much faster with ImageMagick) |
01:45 | < celticminstrel> | MKS? |
01:45 | < ToxicFrog> | Mortice Kern Systems. A Waterloo-based developer of development tools. |
01:45 | < celticminstrel> | I thought it sounded familiar. I think I sort-of know one of the guys who founded that. |
01:45 | < ToxicFrog> | My dad worked there for a while before management was taken over by brainslugs and he fled - along with most of the other competent people - to CacheFlow. |
01:46 | | * Vornicus didn't start Actually Learning To Program until november 2001. |
01:46 | | * Vornicus learned from Chalain. |
01:46 | < ToxicFrog> | I know I was using LOGO in the early 90s, but I don't think I really realized I was programming until I started on QBASIC. |
01:47 | < ToxicFrog> | I do remember that I understood basic OO concepts and was fluent in Turing 4 by 2002, because that's what I did one of my final projects in. |
01:48 | <@McMartin> | Hm |
01:48 | <@McMartin> | I can't tell what if anything happened to the startup that was my first job out of high school |
01:48 | < ToxicFrog> | I started on C earlier - 1998 - but it took me longer to really become comfortable in it; early 2003 is when it started to click for me. |
01:48 | <@McMartin> | I did prototype work for them in Common Lisp, then turned that into an ActiveX control, which involved hand-hacking fixes into MSVC++'s runtime libraries. |
01:48 | < ToxicFrog> | (whereas I was introduced to Turing in 2001. And some of my code from that era was awful) |
01:49 | <@McMartin> | Since this was 1996 and there were no functioning implementations of C++ yet. |
01:49 | < ToxicFrog> | (I wrote a Dome Wars clone in a single 750-line file of procedural code) |
01:49 | | * Vornicus started in Python. |
01:49 | <@Vornicus> | though technically I'd done some (not very interesting) stuff in c64 basic, and one (completely ridiculous) thing in pascal. |
01:50 | < celticminstrel> | Turing is a flavour of Pascal, isn't it? |
01:51 | < ToxicFrog> | Mine was something like Logo - QBASIC - Pascal - C - Java - C++ - more C - Turing 3 - Turing 4 - Postscript - Perl - Lua - Python - Scheme - Haskell - Scala |
01:51 | < ToxicFrog> | And bash somewhere in there. Or everywhere. |
01:52 | < ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: kind of, yeah. It's more newbie-friendly and has a simple but useful IDE. |
01:52 | < celticminstrel> | I'd probably go Logo-HyperTalk-C++-Python, though I think there should be a few more in there. |
01:52 | < ToxicFrog> | Also builtin stuff for graphics, sound, control - the SDL feature set, basically. |
01:52 | <@McMartin> | I can't even trace it anymore, especially if you count "interacted with a REPL in some form" |
01:52 | < celticminstrel> | Actually I was dabbling a little in C around the same time as I was learning C++, either just before or just after. |
01:52 | <@Derakon> | Lessee...I did some pointless C64 BASIC stuff, then poked at the Angband source code (C) and made a few changes that never made it into mainline, then Java, C++, and school. |
01:52 | <@McMartin> | Like, if we count playing with turtle graphics as "working in LOGO", then the first system I ever used was Prolog. |
01:52 | < ToxicFrog> | Sadly, its networking looks like TCP but doesn't actually guarantee delivery, although that may have been the awful high school network |
01:52 | < ToxicFrog> | So our plans of a networked N-player game fell through, and we had to do a two-player shared-keyboard deal. |
01:53 | < ToxicFrog> | On the plus side, it was a kickass game, and since one of the team members was in visual arts with a focus on 3d renders, it had fantastic graphics. |
01:53 | <@Vornicus> | basic - (logo) - (pascal) - python - c/c++ - java - whole bunch of shit I don't remember - bash - ruby - postscript - javascript |
01:53 | < celticminstrel> | I recall someone (or perhaps two people) making a primitive instant messaging program as their high school final project. |
01:53 | < ToxicFrog> | Oh yeah, I picked up javascript at some point. |
01:53 | < celticminstrel> | That was the year below me. |
01:53 | <@McMartin> | Probably the capstone of my juvenile projects was a game written in C with memory-mapped MCGA graphics and a toolset we built from scratch back in '94. |
01:54 | < ToxicFrog> | I also learned ActionScript, but have successfully forgotten all of it. |
01:54 | | * Vornicus appears to be the "newest" programmer here. |
01:54 | < ToxicFrog> | I really should rewrite tSpaceWar in something that runs on modern systems one of these days. |
01:54 | < ToxicFrog> | It wasn't new, but it was cool. |
01:55 | < ToxicFrog> | (specifically, it was a Spacewar clone with better graphics, eight weapons, and customizeable game parameters) |
01:55 | < ToxicFrog> | (including things like "gravity polarity") |
01:56 | < ToxicFrog> | "What are you doing?" "Testing our final project, Mr. Wagner." "Aah. Carry on." |
01:56 | < ToxicFrog> | "Start everyone with xaser missiles this time?" |
01:57 | <@McMartin> | Hm. I don't seem to have that shooter online anymore. |
01:57 | < ToxicFrog> | Mr. Wagner was, it must be said, completely awesome. |
01:57 | <@McMartin> | Anyway, I used that old project, translated it to SDL in a mad weekend, and then used it as my CV when Star Control 2 was getting opened up |
01:57 | <@McMartin> | It appears to have worked. |
01:57 | <@McMartin> | Speaking of which, I need to get aroudn to making the official mac build again. |
01:58 | < ToxicFrog> | A physics teacher by trade, he was tapped to teach TEI OA1 (the "IT course") and, later, Programming II, when the previous programming teacher retired (or, possibly, was locked in a beehive by disgruntled students - he was an asshole and, apart from that, an awful teacher) |
01:58 | < celticminstrel> | My high school project was a "maze" game with ASCII graphics. |
01:58 | < ToxicFrog> | He grabbed the text and stayed a week ahead all semester. |
01:58 | < celticminstrel> | Which I have been occasionally attempting to port to curses. |
01:59 | < celticminstrel> | Or ncurses, whatever. |
01:59 | < ToxicFrog> | And his approach to classroom discipline was that the better the class was doing, the laxer he was. |
01:59 | < ToxicFrog> | Everyone's getting 90s? Sure, you can use that spare computer as a Quake server. Just keep the volume turned down. |
02:01 | < ToxicFrog> | Hm. |
02:01 | < ToxicFrog> | Maybe after I finish Felt, I should port tSpaceWar to love2d. |
02:01 | < ToxicFrog> | I may even be able to use box2d, if it supports gravitational point-sources. |
02:02 | <@McMartin> | My APCS final project was an IF engine and language. |
02:03 | <@McMartin> | It was pretty terrible, but it was good enough that translating it to Inform 6 was a worthy project. |
02:03 | <@McMartin> | Which will never, ever be released. |
02:03 | < ToxicFrog> | Heh. |
02:03 | < ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I've got more than a few projects in my past that will never see release. |
02:03 | < ToxicFrog> | Including at least three iterations of ss1edit. |
02:06 | | * McMartin ponders |
02:06 | <@McMartin> | I wonder if the heroic age of computing really is 8 |
02:06 | | * Vornicus is still vaguely proud of his I7 thing. |
02:06 | <@McMartin> | Or if it stopped at some point, but a point after where I grew old and jaded |
02:08 | < ToxicFrog> | ? |
02:09 | <@McMartin> | There was an age when games were made by towering giants |
02:09 | <@McMartin> | At some point this basically stopped |
02:10 | <@McMartin> | I look at my heroes and they're all of the early-to-mid 80s. |
02:10 | <@McMartin> | But then I look at *yours* and go "yeah, OK" |
02:10 | <@McMartin> | Though even then the shift to studios is starting |
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02:16 | < SchoolPhox> | Hmm. So, does anyone have experience with ARM micros? I'm trying to optimize interrupt handling, but I don't quite understand the vector table concept. |
02:17 | <@McMartin> | Ugh. Not at that level, sorry. |
02:17 | <@Vornicus> | I at one point started writing "disARM", but I don't know anything about interrupt handling at all. |
02:17 | < ToxicFrog> | I have no experience with ARM, but do have experience with IVTs on the Motorola architecture |
02:17 | <@McMartin> | I'd have to refresh my knowledge on the basics of interrupt handling beyond the basics "some defined point has a list of jump points for handling interrupts"... |
02:17 | < ToxicFrog> | However, I'm also going AFK for perhaps half an hour shortly. |
02:20 | < SchoolPhox> | Ah, nevermind. I think I worked out what I was trying to figure out. Kind of a lousy example and table they used in this book. |
02:21 | < SchoolPhox> | Mostly, I was confused by the concept of a jump to a jump point. |
02:21 | <@McMartin> | Ah. I've done that when doing NES hacking. :D |
02:28 | < SchoolPhox> | See, what I don't understand here is the correct order of events. The processor jumps to the interrupt vector. From there, it loads the address of the interrupt handler. Now, do I have the code to determine the cause of the interrupt in the handler, and then branch to a service routine? |
02:30 | <@McMartin> | This is where hardware spiders start to come in. |
02:30 | <@Vornicus> | hardware is full of spiders ;_; |
02:30 | <@McMartin> | (MIPS is hilarious here, as it abuses instruction pipelining to force an atomicity that otherwise 'shouldn't be there') |
02:31 | < SchoolPhox> | MIPS? |
02:33 | <@McMartin> | Another architecture, and the one I studied back in uni. |
02:33 | <@McMartin> | Among many other things, the PS1 and PS2 used it. |
02:37 | < ToxicFrog> | SchoolPhox: in general, the processor does not jump to the IVT - it just loads the address of the interrupt handler from it, then jumps to that |
02:37 | < ToxicFrog> | Also - does ARM actually have a seperate "interrupt handler" and "interrupt service routine"? I usually see those used interchangeably. |
02:38 | < SchoolPhox> | Dunno. I've got a kind of crazy teacher. One of the best in Canada, I'm told, but he has some strange methods of doing things. This could be one of those things. |
02:39 | < SchoolPhox> | Or it could just be a matter of syntax |
02:40 | < SchoolPhox> | Basically, the interrupt handler, designed his way, is like a switch-case. One of X cases occur, each of which branches to it's own service routine. |
02:40 | < SchoolPhox> | *its |
02:40 | < SchoolPhox> | Is that similar to your experiences? |
02:41 | < ToxicFrog> | No, but I can see cases where you'd write an ISR like that - what sort of cases is it distinguishing? |
02:43 | < celticminstrel> | Eh, NES. I once entertained the strange idea of writing something for that platform. <_< |
02:43 | < SchoolPhox> | The example he used is a parallel I/O. There's 32 pins in each PIO module, each of which can be configured to cause an interrupt. They're all OR'd together, though, going to the interrupt controller. So, I guess the interrupt handler routine would be used to determine which pin caused the interrupt. |
02:46 | <@McMartin> | celticminstrel: tbqh the best retro platform from that era is probably the C64, even though it's a touch weaker than the NES. |
02:47 | < celticminstrel> | Doesn't NES have better graphics? I can't remember the C64 games I tried on an emulator... |
02:47 | < SchoolPhox> | I thought the C64 was vector graphics |
02:47 | < ToxicFrog> | SchoolPhox: yeah, it sounds like in this case they all generate one interrupt, so the ISR then needs to check and see which one actually went hot |
02:48 | <@McMartin> | celticminstrel: Basically, yeah. C64 has much worse color support, but slightly better resolution and true bitmap. |
02:49 | <@McMartin> | The NES has actual panning hardware and multiplane tiled graphics, and much more flexible sprites. |
02:49 | <@McMartin> | But the C64 is much less of a PITA to program, and if you're serious about making a project, you should be using something more modern in a retro aesthetic *anyway*. |
02:51 | < celticminstrel> | Hehe, probably. |
02:54 | <@McMartin> | I've done some of each: https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/retro/ |
02:57 | <@McMartin> | I should probably migrate Ophis onto SF or github or something. |
02:58 | <@Vornicus> | Clearly you should instead target the TurboGrafx16 instead. |
02:58 | <@Vornicus> | (I have no idea what the turbografx16 had) |
02:59 | <@McMartin> | (I think it was the 16-bit extension 65816, like the SNES and Apple ][gs) |
02:59 | <@Vornicus> | (but I know the Genesis had shitty graphics and an awesome proc, and the SNES had aweseom graphics and a shitty proc.) |
02:59 | <@McMartin> | (TG16 had a Hudson Soft HuC6280 o_O) |
03:00 | <@McMartin> | (SNES = Apple ][gs, Genesis = Amiga) |
03:00 | <@McMartin> | (Genesis also = early Mac) |
03:00 | <@Vornicus> | (I was not aware that hudson made chips) |
03:00 | <@Vornicus> | (...there is probably a reason for this.) |
03:01 | <@McMartin> | (Modified 65SC02, which makes it a cousin of the Apple ][e/C64/NES/Atari 2600) |
03:01 | <@McMartin> | (Closest to the ][e) |
03:02 | <@McMartin> | (C64 used 6510 and was basically the only thing that did; NES used the 2A03, which was a 6502 with BCD removed and replaced with a sound generator; 2600 used a 6507, which is a stock 6502 with fewer pins) |
03:03 | <@Vornicus> | (I also thought the 2600 had an even less powerful proc than that) |
03:03 | <@McMartin> | (The 6502 had - has - insane staying power. In terms of design it's probably the finest 8-bit chip ever made) |
03:06 | <@McMartin> | (It and the Z80 still see use in embedded stuff today - basically anythign that isn't demanding enough to want an ARM.) |
04:01 | < ToxicFrog> | I regret every day that I settled for pidgin rather than installing bitlbee. |
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04:43 | < SchoolPhox> | Sad face. Finally got my LCD controller working. Turns out, though, that the monkey who tried to solder to it when we first bought it killed off a block of pixels. Either cooked the RAM controlling it, or killed the screen itself. |
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05:18 | <@Derakon> | Hey, that looks reasonably promising. http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/games/jbrl/mapgen38c.png |
05:19 | <@Derakon> | My main concern is the random vertical stripes, which I suspect are a side-effect of the "pit" tunnel type thinking it can go where it really, really can't. |
05:34 | <@McMartin> | Is there anything intrinsically wrong with that? |
05:34 | <@McMartin> | It's v. Kraid's Lair |
05:39 | <@Derakon> | I'd rather be doing that intentionally~ |
05:42 | | * Derakon inserts a quadtree into his graph edge pruning system, somehow manages to prune everything. |
05:42 | <@Derakon> | This is strange because I don't think I actually changed the pruning logic itself; just made the "find nodes near this edge" logic faster. |
05:42 | <@Derakon> | Oh wait, yes I did change it. Nevermind! |
05:43 | <@Derakon> | I had to make a wrapper class for Vector2D that implements getBounds() so that I could insert point objects into my quadtree; this means that the "is" operator no longer works. Thus, edges thought that nodes that were in fact parts of those edges were too close to said edges. |
05:49 | <@Derakon> | Okay. It may have taken two minutes, but I generated a 450x450-block map with, as far as I can see, no blocked-off areas...fuck. There's a hole (unintended loop). |
05:50 | <@Derakon> | Dammit, the tunnel carving algorithm is supposed to be robust! |
05:51 | <@Derakon> | And now I have a bug whose repro case involves two minutes of map generation and an unusably large set of vertices and edges. >.< |
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15:19 | | Reivles [orthia@3CF3A5.E1CD01.36D449.95F5A5] has joined #code |
15:35 | | Kindamoody [Kindamoody@Nightstar-4764665d.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
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16:10 | | mode/#code [+o ToxicFrog] by Reiver |
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16:24 | | Kindamoody [Kindamoody@Nightstar-4764665d.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #code |
16:24 | | trish [abc@Nightstar-250c948a.cable.rogers.com] has left #code [] |
16:36 | | Serah [Z@3A600C.A966FF.5BF32D.8E7ABA] has joined #code |
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16:44 | | Kindamoody [Kindamoody@Nightstar-4764665d.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #code |
17:00 | | Serah is now known as Stalker |
17:04 | | AnnoDomini is now known as Ta`akozoka |
17:41 | | Reiv [orthianz@3CF3A5.E1CD01.36D449.95F5A5] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
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18:31 | | Tarinaky [Tarinaky@Nightstar-f349ca6d.plus.com] has joined #code |
21:16 | | Ta`akozoka [annodomini@Nightstar-e08db067.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [[NS] Quit: Reconnecting] |
21:16 | | AbuDhabi [annodomini@Nightstar-e08db067.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #code |
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22:42 | | AbuDhabi is now known as AnnoDomini |
23:14 | | celticminstrel [celticminstre@Nightstar-f8b608eb.cable.rogers.com] has joined #code |
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23:51 | | * Reiv pokes ToxicFrog |
23:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yar? |
23:56 | | * ToxicFrog bonks Reiv with a bitlbee server |
23:58 | < Reiv> | www.rockpapershotgun.com |
23:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes? |
23:59 | < Reiv> | No problems? |
23:59 | < Reiv> | http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/08/counter-strike-2-release/#more-53419 - any problems here instead? |
23:59 | < Reiv> | Opera is crashing out on a bad flash element. |
23:59 | < Reiv> | The kicker: Chrome isn't. |
--- Log closed Wed Mar 09 00:00:00 2011 |