| --- Log opened Sun Dec 26 00:00:14 2010 |
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| 04:37 | < kwsn> | Going from a 2.0Ghz dual core w/ 4 gigs ram to a 2.4 non-HT single core w/ 512 megs of ram = T_____________T |
| 05:59 | < Alek> | :( |
| 06:01 | < SmithKurosaki> | :( |
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| 06:37 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 06:59 | <@McMartin> | kwsn: I'm on 52 Kbps dialup right now. |
| 06:59 | <@McMartin> | My world is T_T |
| 07:01 | < kwsn> | well |
| 07:01 | < kwsn> | i'm on a faster connection since i'm at the parents |
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| 18:33 | < kwsn> | ugh |
| 18:33 | < kwsn> | the ram is most likely is what's holding this thing back |
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| 20:13 | | * Derakon , bored, codes up Conway's Game of Life. |
| 20:14 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Heh. |
| 20:15 | <@Derakon> | You'd think that Python's random module would have a coin flip function. Oh well. |
| 20:15 | <@Derakon> | "random.random() < .5" will have to do. |
| 20:22 | < Anno[Laptop]> | No integer randoms? |
| 20:23 | <@Derakon> | Oh sure. |
| 20:23 | <@Derakon> | But it'd amount to the same thing. |
| 20:23 | <@Derakon> | http://docs.python.org/library/random.html |
| 20:25 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Well, yeah, but I'm more accustomed to rand()%2 == 0 or something like that. |
| 20:26 | < EvilDarkLord> | Derakon: Doesn't it have a "pick out of set" function? |
| 20:28 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, again, that'd basically be the same idea. |
| 20:28 | <@Derakon> | random.choice([0, 1]) is IMO the same idea as random.random() < .5 |
| 20:28 | <@Derakon> | At least for this use case. |
| 20:31 | <@Derakon> | Oh, no wonder my program is freezing. |
| 20:31 | <@Derakon> | time.sleep() takes seconds as its argument, not milliseconds. |
| 20:31 | | Tarinaky_Win [50e51fec@Nightstar-36f67fd0.mibbit.com] has joined #code |
| 20:31 | < Tarinaky_Win> | Hey all. |
| 20:47 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Derakon: I think I've screwed up time.sleep() in the same way before |
| 20:53 | <@Derakon> | Hmm, I've mucked up the simulation somehow, but I don't mind; it's less prone to stabilizing. |
| 20:56 | <@Derakon> | http://paste.ubuntu.com/547793/ |
| 20:59 | <@Derakon> | It seems to be prone to making long "corridors" of empty space with live cells on either side. |
| 21:02 | <@Derakon> | (Overall program is only 70 lines long, and that includes event processing and a little needless chrome) |
| 21:02 | <@Derakon> | (And two comments!) |
| 21:03 | < Rhamphoryncus> | My favourite thing about python's time functions is they only have 22 bits after the decimal place, and it's decreasing |
| 21:04 | <@Derakon> | Huh? |
| 21:04 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Python uses a 64-bit float for time |
| 21:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | 53 bits of mantissa (including the implicit leading 1), of which 31 are used to the left of the decimal place (ie a second or larger) |
| 21:08 | < Rhamphoryncus> | We exceeded 30 bits on the left side back in 2004. We'll exceed 31 bits in 2038, which'd be a big problem except most computers will be 64-bit by then and implicitly expand time_t to 64-bit |
| 21:09 | <@Derakon> | That seems an odd approach to use. |
| 21:09 | <@Derakon> | Though I suppose it is good that time at least won't break horribly when 2038 comes. |
| 21:09 | < Rhamphoryncus> | float? It's odd yet very effective today |
| 21:09 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Very few things want nanosecond precision anyway |
| 21:10 | <@Derakon> | I more meant the decreasing precision over time issue. |
| 21:10 | < Rhamphoryncus> | *nod* |
| 21:11 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I'd prefer a fixed point type, but there isn't one |
| 21:12 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, whatever this sim is actually doing, it's very stably unstable. |
| 21:12 | <@Derakon> | I'm used to most Life sims settling down into static formations after a few thousand iterations tops. |
| 21:14 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Isn't it deterministic? So yours should if the starting conditions are the same? |
| 21:14 | <@Derakon> | Yes. |
| 21:16 | <@Derakon> | The most easy-to-see variance is that a line of 3 dots in a vacuum doesn't turn into an alternator in my sim. |
| 21:41 | | * Derakon sets up some code to take a hash of the grid each step and check for repeat states. |
| 21:41 | <@Derakon> | So far I've gone 3k steps without repeating. |
| 21:41 | <@Derakon> | Which I find interesting for a deterministic sim with only 80x60 cells. |
| 21:41 | <@Derakon> | 'scuse me, 40x30 cells. |
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| 21:59 | <@Derakon> | 9k iterations... |
| 21:59 | <@Derakon> | This isn't the fastest cellular automata in the world. |
| 21:59 | | * Vornicus examines the steam, looks at jerith and tf. |
| 22:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Why not just fix the behaviour? |
| 22:00 | <@Derakon> | a) because I'm not certain why it's broken, and b) because this is more interesting. |
| 22:02 | < Rhamphoryncus> | 3 dots should be fairly easy to debug |
| 22:02 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But I see the second point |
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| 22:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: yeeeees? |
| 22:07 | <@Derakon> | Here's the entire program, if you're curious. http://paste.ubuntu.com/547808/ |
| 22:07 | <@Derakon> | The drawing code is currently commented out in the interests of running the sim faster. |
| 22:08 | <@Derakon> | (13.3k iterations) |
| 22:08 | <@Vornicus> | Apparently you guys both got me the third one. :P |
| 22:08 | <@Derakon> | Third one what? |
| 22:09 | <@Vornicus> | Third game in the AI War series. |
| 22:09 | <@Derakon> | Ahh |
| 22:09 | <@Vornicus> | Or rather, second DLC, but, you know |
| 22:09 | <@Derakon> | Hint hint hint~ |
| 22:10 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah, GEE I WONDER WHAT YOU WANT ME TO PLAY WITH YOU GUYS |
| 22:10 | < Alek> | lol |
| 22:13 | < Tarinaky_Win> | Hey all. |
| 22:14 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Alek: Post updated map for TGMBL. |
| 22:14 | | * Alek is working on it. -_- |
| 22:15 | | * Derakon realizes that his history checking cares about the age of the cells, when it really shouldn't. |
| 22:15 | <@Derakon> | Sooooo, time to start over. |
| 22:16 | <@Vornicus> | Windows NT stuff use 64-bit integers and 10-nanosecond grain, which will run out in... 6000 years. |
| 22:17 | <@Vornicus> | While I cannot say with confidence that we won't still be using it in 30 years, "50% of the length of recorded history" is probably long enough that we don't have to worry about it running out before replacing it. |
| 22:18 | < Tarinaky_Win> | It's long enough that it won't be a problem within our lifetimes. |
| 22:18 | < Namegduf> | Meanwhile, long after mankind has died out, my FreeBSD server will still be running. FOREVER. |
| 22:18 | < Tarinaky_Win> | Which is, arguably, good enough. |
| 22:18 | < Namegduf> | (I'm joking, I don't even use BSD) |
| 22:20 | | Kindamoody|work is now known as Kindamoody |
| 22:25 | <@Derakon> | Hm, there's only about 10^360 possible states for this sim at 40x30. |
| 22:26 | | Tarinaky [Tarinaky@Nightstar-f349ca6d.plus.com] has joined #code |
| 22:26 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah, not too much. :P |
| 22:26 | <@Vornicus> | what are you simming? |
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| 22:26 | < Alek> | Life, apparently. |
| 22:26 | <@Derakon> | Well, it was supposed to be Conway's Game of Life, but it turned out to be rather less prone to becoming uninteresting. |
| 22:27 | <@Vornicus> | Also, randomly, how are you doing the loop comparison? |
| 22:27 | <@Derakon> | I posted the code here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/547808/ |
| 22:27 | <@Derakon> | Loop comparison? |
| 22:27 | <@Vornicus> | Er, the duplication check? |
| 22:27 | <@Derakon> | Casting the grid to a string and taking a hash. |
| 22:27 | < Alek> | that reminds me, I should reinstall Visual Studio and finish coding my version. -_- |
| 22:28 | <@Derakon> | Though, come to think, the second step isn't really necessary. Just cuts down on memory usage. |
| 22:28 | <@Derakon> | Starts on line 35. |
| 22:28 | <@Derakon> | If you pause the sim (hit 'p') then it'll immediately declare a duplicate and exit~ |
| 22:29 | <@Vornicus> | You can reduce memory usage further by doing normal and half speed and comparing those, but it won't catch duplications until the loop is longer than the preamble. |
| 22:29 | <@Derakon> | Given that I'm now 7k iterations in, I doubt that approach is worthwhile. :) |
| 22:30 | <@Vornicus> | Heh |
| 22:31 | | * Tarinaky pokes room - so I didn't get the job I wanted... any ideas how I can get a programming job :/ |
| 22:32 | <@Derakon> | Practice and dedication, or connections. |
| 22:32 | <@Derakon> | Same as any job. |
| 22:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: yes, we did. There was a bit of confusion. |
| 22:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Now you have all of them and jerith also has TR. |
| 22:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | *TZR. |
| 22:33 | <@Derakon> | I have all of AI War, but I've only played it once so far. |
| 22:34 | <@Derakon> | 9k frames... |
| 22:34 | < Tarinaky> | Derakon: What does that mean, practically though? |
| 22:34 | <@Derakon> | It means there aren't any easy answers. |
| 22:35 | < Tarinaky> | Ah. |
| 22:35 | <@Vornicus> | Der: you'll also note that your comparison times are going quadratic? This method prevents that. |
| 22:35 | <@Derakon> | Well, true. |
| 22:35 | <@Derakon> | I should run it through cProfile and see where my runtime's going. |
| 22:38 | <@Derakon> | ...durr, I should kill the sleep call. |
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| 22:38 | <@Derakon> | No wonder my laptop's fan isn't kicking up. |
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| 22:39 | <@Vornicus> | It really shouldn't take --oh, ha ha. |
| 22:44 | <@Derakon> | 14k steps. |
| 22:52 | <@Derakon> | 38k steps. |
| 22:52 | <@Vornicus> | Are you seeing clear patterns? it shouldn't take nearly this long to cycle down. |
| 22:53 | <@Derakon> | I'm not looking at it at all. |
| 22:53 | <@Derakon> | You should be able to run this yourself. The only special library required is pygame. |
| 22:54 | <@Derakon> | (I turned display off to speed it up) |
| 22:54 | <@Derakon> | I can reduce the number of cells and it does stabilize quickly then. |
| 22:54 | <@Derakon> | But with the 40x30 grid it seems to be able to go indefinitely. |
| 22:55 | <@Derakon> | With a 16x12 grid it lasts 681 steps. |
| 22:56 | | * Vornicus sees if he can get the starting pattern. |
| 22:56 | <@Vornicus> | I suspect your pattern will have a repeat length of something like 480. |
| 22:56 | <@Derakon> | The starting pattern currently is coinflips for each cell. I just seed the RNG with 0. |
| 22:57 | <@Derakon> | Oddly, with a 20x15 grid it only lasted 313 steps. |
| 22:57 | <@Vornicus> | Right, I was just wondering what specific pattern it is. |
| 22:59 | | * Alek wonders what it'd look like with different starting pattern generators, like a lesser/greater chance per cell depending on neighbor count... |
| 23:00 | <@Derakon> | I find two things interesting about this sim. |
| 23:00 | <@Derakon> | The first is its lack of repetition, assuming my repetition-finder isn't buggy. |
| 23:00 | < Alek> | also, settable total count, and it running through and randomly placing until it reaches that count. |
| 23:00 | <@Derakon> | The second is that it tends to form "corridors" -- two long straight lines of cells with a gap between them. |
| 23:01 | <@Vornicus> | does this thing wrap around? |
| 23:02 | <@Derakon> | No, outside the screen is always unoccupied. |
| 23:04 | <@Derakon> | (Hence why min() and max() take up a significant part of my runtime~) |
| 23:04 | <@Vornicus> | You shouldn't be getting anywhere /near/ that cycle length, I don't think... oh, and of course my CA thingy only thinks in increments of 20 cells. |
| 23:05 | <@Derakon> | Well, then is my history-checking buggy? |
| 23:06 | <@Vornicus> | I don't know, I can't really tell. |
| 23:06 | <@Derakon> | It should be equivalent, if more memory-requiring, to simply store the string representation of the grid in hashes instead of an MD5 hash. |
| 23:07 | <@Vornicus> | RIght. |
| 23:23 | < froztbyte> | <3 AI War |
| 23:24 | < froztbyte> | err, wrong channel, but still |
| 23:25 | <@Vornicus> | hell, correctly packed your setup should be, um, 45 bytes long. |
| 23:26 | <@Derakon> | One bit/cell? |
| 23:27 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah. |
| 23:27 | | * Vornicus can't seem to convince anything in mcell to last more than a couple hundred steps. |
| 23:28 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, it's presumably something in my infrastructure that's making it misbehave. |
| 23:28 | <@Derakon> | Anyway, must go bake cookies. |
| 23:28 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 23:29 | <@Vornicus> | ....yes, I see it. |
| 23:29 | <@Vornicus> | ...er, unless you've fixed that. |
| 23:29 | <@Derakon[AFK]> | New post here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/547818/ |
| 23:30 | <@Derakon[AFK]> | And now off to cookies~ |
| 23:30 | <@Vornicus> | Ah, yes. you fixed that. |
| 23:42 | | * Vornicus waits for ai war to finish downloading its stuff. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Dec 27 00:00:15 2010 |