| --- Log opened Tue Jun 22 00:00:43 2010 |
| 00:32 | | Attilla [Attilla@Nightstar-f01c3fca.threembb.co.uk] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] |
| 00:43 | | * AnnoDomini penetrates the secrets of the Freeciv interface. |
| 00:44 | | RichardBarrell [mycatverbs@Nightstar-58acb782.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #code ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] |
| 00:53 | <@AnnoDomini> | It's actually pretty good. |
| 00:54 | <@AnnoDomini> | This game made large strides in user-friendliness since I played it last. |
| 00:56 | <@AnnoDomini> | The classic tileset looks like CivI/CivNet. |
| 00:56 | <@AnnoDomini> | That's awesome. |
| 01:00 | <@Vornicus> | DId they do something about the horrible enemy AI? |
| 01:00 | <@McMartin> | It's become wacky in different ways, AFAICT. |
| 01:00 | <@McMartin> | AIs will at least fight *each other* now occasionally. |
| 01:01 | <@AnnoDomini> | Hahaha. |
| 01:01 | <@McMartin> | I don't know if they've fixed the "Give us X!" "No" "OMG WAR" "You have chariots. Have fun against my tanks." "Peace treaty plz" "Sigh, OK." "Give us X!" cycle though. |
| 01:01 | <@AnnoDomini> | When I first played this I was like: |
| 01:02 | <@AnnoDomini> | "Aww, ain't that cute, the AI thinks it can OW OW OW IT'S STABBING ME-" |
| 01:02 | <@AnnoDomini> | *gruesome downfall of civilization* |
| 01:03 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, back in the "all games are N-vs-1 where 1 is you" days getting established was hard but once you did it was a Tedious Murder Machine. |
| 01:03 | <@McMartin> | Meanwhile, one of the regular FreeCiv players in another channel somehow managed to win a game with Space Victory in which he was entirely at peace for the entire 6000-year timespan. |
| 01:03 | <@McMartin> | Even though everyone's supposed to declare permawar on you after you launch your first SS part. |
| 01:04 | <@AnnoDomini> | Hax. |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | (Other fun aspects of that game; getting the Apollo Project before the Automobile. "I think half the complexity of this project was getting a space suit that the horses could wear." |
| 01:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | How far can you get without The Wheel? |
| 01:06 | <@Vornicus> | The AI back when I bothered with freeciv was a smallpoxing monster. |
| 01:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | Yes. I remember that. |
| 01:06 | | * AnnoDomini hates upon smallpox forever. |
| 01:07 | <@Vornicus> | The only way I could out-growth it was by fixing the rules so that it had to build more than 3 steps apart. |
| 01:07 | <@McMartin> | Hating smallpox is one reason why I can only play CIV now. |
| 01:07 | <@McMartin> | Because it's the only game that ever penalizes it. =P |
| 01:07 | <@AnnoDomini> | I wish there was a CIV version without the waterworks. |
| 01:08 | <@McMartin> | waterworks? |
| 01:08 | <@AnnoDomini> | I don't need fully 3D graphics in a 4X game! |
| 01:11 | <@Vornicus> | wah? |
| 01:11 | <@AnnoDomini> | I expect you could take CivI's basic interface unaltered, down to the rectangular, non-isometric map and implement CIV's mechanics on it. |
| 01:13 | <@McMartin> | It would be very difficult to properly represent workers and their results, I suspect |
| 01:13 | <@McMartin> | Yield results are a lot more flexible in CIV than its predecessors and some kind of yield overlay would end up costing a lot of the same, I think. |
| 01:13 | <@McMartin> | You could optimize the city view some, I guess |
| 01:13 | <@McMartin> | And you can already simplify units |
| 01:14 | <@McMartin> | CIV at launch was a lot more crunchy than it should have been, but I *hear* this has improved |
| 01:14 | <@Vornicus> | "hear" |
| 01:15 | <@McMartin> | I never saw it in its bad days, and my machine when I first played was full of Sizable Beef |
| 01:15 | <@AnnoDomini> | Well. I must say that it RUNS on my box, a Sempron 1600+ or something with 1.5GB RAM, which is a plus. |
| 01:15 | <@AnnoDomini> | (I had to install newer drivers, because the ones I was using beforehand made graphics display all wrong.) |
| 01:20 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:24 | | * gnolam giggles at McMartin's space suit comment. |
| 01:26 | < gnolam> | Re: the AI - in Freeciv's defense, none of the commercial civs' AIs I've played has ever really gotten the "know when they're beaten" part right either. |
| 01:27 | < gnolam> | +grammar |
| 01:27 | < gnolam> | They have a tendency to come with unreasonable demands even if you're 500 years ahead of them. |
| 01:28 | <@AnnoDomini> | Which isn't terribly unrealistic. Just look at North Korea. :p |
| 01:28 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. CIV papered over it, but did so in a way I can abuse, so I can't complain~ |
| 01:28 | <@McMartin> | If they're friendly, instead of demanding stuff, they ask politely if you can spare it. And if you say no, there's no relations hit. |
| 01:29 | <@McMartin> | This also works in reverse. |
| 01:29 | <@McMartin> | So if someone's friendly, you can hit them up every dozen turns or so with a "hey, feel like giving me all your gold?" and they'll say yes more often than not |
| 01:29 | <@McMartin> | This turns them from suicidal prats into whiny prats, but that's OK, because I can't hear their whining over HOW AWESOME I AM. |
| 01:32 | <@McMartin> | (CIV, like SMAC, also has the "CRUSH INTO SUBMISSION" option without genocide, but CIV's is a two-edged sword, so.) |
| 01:32 | <@McMartin> | I consider FreeCiv to be Basically Civ2. |
| 01:33 | <@McMartin> | The problem is that I didn't actually like Civ2 much. -_- |
| 01:33 | <@McMartin> | I'm well aware this opinion isn't widely shared. |
| 01:34 | | * AnnoDomini liked CivI, CivNet, CivII, CCtP, SMAC, SMAX and CIV. |
| 01:35 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, my list is noticably shorter: CivI, SMAC, and CIV:BtS |
| 01:35 | <@McMartin> | (BtS sort of goes without saying since nobody plays Vanilla or Just Warlords AFAICT) |
| 01:35 | <@AnnoDomini> | Well, I include all the add-ons for CIV. |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | I didn't like SMAC or FreeCiv and haven't played any of the others. |
| 01:36 | <@McMartin> | Civ3 and CIV are Noticably Entirely Different Games. |
| 01:36 | <@AnnoDomini> | I loved SMAC for planet busters. |
| 01:36 | <@McMartin> | It's just that Civ3 was very poorly thought out and CIV loots liberally from it and SMAC and Civ2 while explicitly punishing obnoxious strategies from the previous games. |
| 01:37 | <@AnnoDomini> | I was disappointed that you couldn't mount them on buggy chassis. |
| 01:37 | <@McMartin> | Pah |
| 01:37 | <@McMartin> | Infantry! |
| 01:37 | <@McMartin> | Planet Buster vests. |
| 01:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | I liked a lot of the parts of SMAC, I just didn't enjoy the game as a whole. |
| 01:37 | <@AnnoDomini> | I liked the mindworms also. |
| 01:37 | <@McMartin> | Mmm, Gaians |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | That said |
| 01:38 | <@AnnoDomini> | Especially in one of the early games as the University when I someone got one boil that went to ultra-elite without dying. |
| 01:38 | <@AnnoDomini> | *somehow |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | CIV took me something like 18 hours of play to get to the point where I felt that I had the slightest clue what was going on and how to make things happen. |
| 01:39 | <@AnnoDomini> | Took me somewhat less. But I was already well-informed by reading the really, really awesome LP. |
| 01:39 | <@McMartin> | The alternate history one? |
| 01:39 | <@AnnoDomini> | Pity it was never finished. |
| 01:39 | <@AnnoDomini> | Yeah. |
| 01:39 | <@McMartin> | Yup. |
| 01:39 | <@AnnoDomini> | The one by Zoolooman. |
| 01:39 | <@McMartin> | That was with that; it didn't help me much because I didn't understand what he was doing under the hood. |
| 01:40 | <@McMartin> | Though I *did* manage a Civil Service Slingshot, in BtS, in the first game I won. |
| 01:40 | <@AnnoDomini> | Do you play dominions 3, by the way? |
| 01:40 | <@McMartin> | I do not |
| 01:40 | <@AnnoDomini> | Do you know of it? |
| 01:40 | <@McMartin> | The only TBS I've really played seriously is the Civ games above, plus Sword of the Stars. |
| 01:40 | <@McMartin> | It sounds like I've heard of it, but I know nothing of the gameplay. |
| 01:40 | <@AnnoDomini> | WTF! A non-retarded automated build queue? |
| 01:41 | <@AnnoDomini> | This is unimaginable. |
| 01:41 | <@AnnoDomini> | Dominions 3 is like a mutant love child of Medieval: Total War and Master of Magic. |
| 01:41 | <@McMartin> | Oh god, MoM. |
| 01:42 | <@McMartin> | -- Planar Disjunction -- |
| 01:42 | <@AnnoDomini> | OLD MAN YOU SEEK THE SPELL OF MASTERY |
| 01:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Dom3 is one of those games where I love the concept, I love reading about the games, but I absolutely do not have the patience for the game itsself. |
| 01:43 | <@McMartin> | That's me and TBS generally. |
| 01:43 | <@McMartin> | Unless I'm in just the right headspace. |
| 01:43 | <@AnnoDomini> | ToxicFrog: Well, yes. The game needs more automation. |
| 01:43 | <@McMartin> | Which I was for about 60 hours of play over the past two months, where I finally became Basically Competent at CIV |
| 01:44 | <@McMartin> | Where by Basically Competent I mean "could at least win on Chieftain". |
| 01:44 | <@AnnoDomini> | Especially commander production automation, default order automation, auto-temple builder scripting, auto-site searching, monthly forgings and a few minor ones. |
| 01:45 | <@AnnoDomini> | I see. |
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| 02:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | EAT MUSKETBALLS, LIBYANS. |
| 02:07 | < celticminstrel> | And somehow no-one noticed that CIV has no obvious implication of 4 in it anywhere - it's simply an abbreviation of "Civilisation". It took me a bit to realize people were actually talking about Civ4 in particular. |
| 02:08 | <@AnnoDomini> | I took special care to abbreviate CivI and Civ2 the other way. <_< |
| 02:08 | < celticminstrel> | Did you? I don't think I noticed that, though I did kind of skim the conversation. I noticed a Civ3, but no 2 or 1. |
| 02:08 | <@Vornicus> | "C IV" |
| 02:09 | < celticminstrel> | ...wait, I did see a Civ2 somewhere. And yes Vornicus, I get it. |
| 02:10 | <@AnnoDomini> | I've gotten to Atomic Theory, but haven't yet figured out Trade. |
| 02:15 | <@McMartin> | The upcoming one has already been dubbed CiV. |
| 02:15 | <@McMartin> | Also, case sensitivity: not just for UNIX file systems. |
| 02:15 | < celticminstrel> | ...huh? |
| 02:16 | <@McMartin> | CIV is the canonical abbreviation for the fourth game on all the fan sites. |
| 02:16 | <@McMartin> | They're entirely aware of the ambiguity - it's why it was chosen in the first place. |
| 02:16 | < celticminstrel> | I was saying "huh" to the line directly above mine... |
| 02:17 | < celticminstrel> | As in, why are you bringing up UNIX filesystems. |
| 02:17 | <@McMartin> | "It is not unreasonable for people to be able to distinguish CIV, CiV, and Civ" |
| 02:20 | <@AnnoDomini> | I've somehow managed to take all the invading cities. |
| 02:20 | <@AnnoDomini> | Being way ahead in tech helped. |
| 02:20 | <@Vornicus> | Dammit faith |
| 02:21 | | * gnolam wants a Superpower Civ-like. |
| 02:21 | < gnolam> | Where you don't engage in direct combat with your enemy, but instead try to do it via satellite states. |
| 02:21 | <@AnnoDomini> | I went from worst to third in military power, just in this little war. |
| 02:22 | < gnolam> | (And of course, any time you go by "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and give weapons or training to some thirld world nation, it should backfire horribly later) |
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| 04:10 | < celticminstrel> | Unbelievable. There is no documentation (as far as I can tell) on the PHP site for the try...catch structure. |
| 04:12 | <@McMartin> | PHP? |
| 04:12 | <@McMartin> | I can, in fact, totally believe that. -_- |
| 04:12 | < celticminstrel> | :| |
| 04:12 | | * McMartin <-- full of irrational hatred for PHP |
| 04:12 | | * McMartin <-- adopted this due to many other people's apparent fully rational hatred for PHP |
| 04:13 | < celticminstrel> | I wanted to check if it supported an else clause as in Python. I'm going to guess it doesn't. |
| 04:21 | < simon> | PHP has exceptions? |
| 04:23 | < simon> | apparently so. |
| 04:24 | <@Vornicus> | PHP is... well I've never realy seen a compelling use case for it. |
| 04:24 | < Reiv> | They just never get used~ |
| 04:25 | < celticminstrel> | I don't particularly like it either. |
| 04:26 | < simon> | one thing I learned about PHP two weeks ago: SPL (Standard PHP Library) |
| 04:27 | < simon> | http://www.php.net/manual/en/book.spl.php -- apparently PHP has had built-in support for stacks, queues, heaps, iterators since 5.1 or so. |
| 04:27 | < simon> | no built-in efficient tree structures. |
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| 07:44 | <@jerith> | PHP has exceptions, but they're useless because nothing throws them. |
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| 08:33 | | * Kazriko strangles ES: Oblivion... |
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| 17:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yay, java. |
| 17:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | String path = ((BufferChanging)message).getBuffer().getPath(); |
| 17:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | VFSBrowser browser = (VFSBrowser)((BufferChanging)message).getEditPane().getView().getDockableWindowM anager().getDockable("vfs.browser"); |
| 17:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | browser.locateFile(path); |
| 17:44 | < celticminstrel> | ...I would probably split the first into multiple lines, just for readability. |
| 17:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | If I cared more, I would probably do that. |
| 17:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and add the extra import statements that entails._) |
| 17:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | (since each intermediate value is a new type, and as soon as you need to declare a variable to hold it, you need to import it.) |
| 17:48 | < Tarinaky> | So my program of study has been terminated. (ie: I'm out on my ear). |
| 17:49 | < Tarinaky> | I've sent an enquiry to the CS dept to see if I can transfer to a diff major but I dunno if that's even possible :/ |
| 17:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Erk :/ What happened? |
| 17:58 | < Tarinaky> | Failed the year. |
| 17:58 | < Tarinaky> | Badly. |
| 18:02 | < gnolam> | ... ow? |
| 18:11 | < Tarinaky> | Well, I'm glad I don't have resits. |
| 18:12 | < Tarinaky> | I'm just hoping I can change major and stay at the same Uni. |
| 18:12 | < Tarinaky> | So I don't have to have a year out. |
| 18:12 | < Tarinaky> | And my accom will be sorted too. |
| 18:15 | | Attilla_ is now known as Attilla |
| 18:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Accom? |
| 18:31 | < Tarinaky> | Accommodation. |
| 18:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | As in housing? |
| 18:31 | < Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 18:44 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 18:48 | < SmithKurosaki> | o.0 |
| 19:24 | < Tarinaky> | I'm so on edge about it all. |
| 19:24 | < Tarinaky> | It's been two days already :/ |
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| 21:18 | < EvilDarkLord> | Anyone here used a Kindle? I'm pondering getting an e-book reader to read a bunch of Project Gutenberg stuff. |
| 21:20 | | * AnnoDomini has used a GBA for reading ebooks. |
| 21:21 | | * Stalker has a 14" (wide) laptop, a 15.1"(4:3) laptop and a 13" (wide) minimac. |
| 21:40 | < gnolam> | EvilDarkLord: do they even have a non-crippled European version yet? :P |
| 21:40 | | * gnolam uses his EEE PC to read ebooks. |
| 21:41 | < EvilDarkLord> | gnolam: It seems they do. They do not have a non-crippled Finnish version, it seems :/ |
| 21:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | EvilDarkLord: the Kobo is pretty nice, and inexpensive, if your hand fits it. |
| 21:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not as many features as the Kindle (it reads books, that's all it does) but it's considerably cheaper. |
| 21:46 | < EvilDarkLord> | ToxicFrog: You've used it personally? |
| 21:46 | | * ToxicFrog would really like to get one and stop using his PSP as an ebook reader, but I really need to wait for a more ergonomic version, or one where you can enable landscape mode regardless of the format |
| 21:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. Dad has one. |
| 21:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh god, what is this |
| 21:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | unsigned64 div_u64_by_u64(unsigned64 dividend, unsigned64 divisor) { |
| 21:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | #ifdef __GNUC__ |
| 21:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | return dividend/divisor; |
| 21:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | #else |
| 21:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | 70 lines of x86 assembler |
| 21:59 | <@AnnoDomini> | Someone tries to handle exception 0? |
| 21:59 | <@AnnoDomini> | I don't quite understand. |
| 22:00 | <@AnnoDomini> | __GNUC__ seems to switch between being able to handle this in C, versus using assembly? |
| 22:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | __GNUC__ is defined if this code is building in gcc. |
| 22:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | And not if it's building in icc or msdev. |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would guess that this is some tragic workaround for an inability in the version of msdev this code used to be built on to handle 64-bit divisions correctly/efficiently. |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | But it's hard to tell since it's not commented. |
| 22:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | I mean, the actual division algorithm is, but there's comment for why we need it in the first place if we aren't using gcc. |
| 22:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | *there's no comment |
| 22:02 | <@AnnoDomini> | I see. |
| 22:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | We stopped using msdev as a build platform a few years ago (I got to handle that, actually) but there's still fragments related to it scattered around here and there. |
| 22:06 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: Rip it out and see if everything still works? |
| 22:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | Kill the interloper! Rip out its life! |
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| 22:28 | | mode/#code [+o Derakon] by Reiver |
| 22:28 | <@Derakon> | Afternoon, folks. |
| 22:30 | <@Derakon> | One of my new projects is to write up a wizard for the biologists to use to apply various bits of processing to their data (e.g. denoising). |
| 22:31 | <@Derakon> | These processing steps are sufficiently intensive that we currently have a cluster of high-powered Linux machines for doing them. |
| 22:31 | <@Derakon> | Currently you copy your data onto the cluster, and from there run a script to submit to the queue. It processes your data, and saves it where you tell it, then you download it back to your local machine to deal with as you like. |
| 22:32 | <@Derakon> | So what I'm thinking is I write a program that runs on your local computer (where all of your data is normally stored). It asks you what task you want to do, and then runs you through deciding on all of the parameters for that task. |
| 22:33 | <@Derakon> | Then it prompts you for your credentials on the cluster, zips up the data, copies it over (the zip/unzip step should be worthwhile compared to the network transfer time even over ethernet). |
| 22:33 | <@Derakon> | The copied data would go in a dot directory on the cluster, in your home directory. |
| 22:34 | <@Derakon> | Then the program on your computer invokes a script on the cluster, and disconnects. The script submits your data to the queue, and then deletes files from the dot directory as they're processed. |
| 22:34 | <@Derakon> | Then when you're done you SSH onto the cluster, grab your data, and go home. Or I could write that into the client program as well. |
| 22:34 | <@Derakon> | Does this sound like a reasonable approach? |
| 22:34 | <@Derakon> | Granted it's pretty high-level. |
| 22:56 | | Thaqui [Thaqui@27B34E.D54D49.F53FA1.6A113C] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 22:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: yes, with one exception |
| 22:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Is zipping in place really worthwhile compared to transferring it with stream compression? |
| 22:59 | <@Derakon> | Oh, right, good call. |
| 22:59 | <@Derakon> | Dunno why I forgot about the -C option on scp... |
| 23:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | rsync 4tw, IMO |
| 23:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | More powerful, better at interrupted transfers, available in library form. |
| 23:01 | <@Derakon> | I'm going to need something capable of remote code execution, though. |
| 23:01 | <@Derakon> | AIUI rsync is solely for transferring files. |
| 23:02 | <@Derakon> | (Which isn't to say I couldn't use rsync for transferring and SSH for remote program execution) |
| 23:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | pretty sure scp isn't capable of remote code execution either |
| 23:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | And both it and rsync use ssh as the transport, so... |
| 23:13 | <@Derakon> | Well, no. For some reason my mind conflates SCP and SSH. |
| 23:14 | <@Derakon> | But my brain's in a weird place today, so I shouldn't trust it. |
| 23:15 | <@Derakon> | In fact, I think I may go home early and take a nap. I'm clearly not reaching adequate levels of productivity... |
| 23:17 | <@Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 23:17 | | Derakon [Derakon@Nightstar-1ffd02e6.ucsf.edu] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 23:23 | | AnnoDomini [annodomini@Nightstar-34add7fa.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [[NS] Quit: DEATH.] |
| --- Log closed Wed Jun 23 00:00:44 2010 |