| --- Log opened Fri Feb 26 00:00:04 2010 |
| 00:01 | < Zed_> | you don't need to see other information at the moment, and the scaled fonts are hard to read |
| 00:01 | < Zed_> | Plus, tons of the printed characters don't display right in many fonts, including the terminal font |
| 00:04 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher[T-2]: most roguelikes benefit from fullscreen, even if all they use it for is more screen real estate for menus, inventory, etc |
| 00:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Zed_: the thing is, unless you're also doing this to practice you mad vt220 skills or the like, this is an argument for installing a better terminal emulator, not an argument for drinking deep from that well of misery and torment that is terminal emulator development. |
| 00:08 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:10 | < Zed_> | terminal emulator? |
| 00:11 | < Zed_> | I don't mean like "Terminal" like something that can connect to telnet |
| 00:11 | < Zed_> | I mean console apps |
| 00:11 | < Zed_> | any sort of win32 program that uses the dos text out |
| 00:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 00:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | A "terminal emulator" is a program that emulates the behaviour of a physical serial text terminal. |
| 00:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | cmd.exe is one. PuTTY is a terminal emulator combined with an SSH client. xterm, gnome-terminal, rxvt and konsole are others. |
| 00:12 | < Zed_> | I dont' have any desire to have a serial terminal program anyways, tho |
| 00:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | You misunderstand. |
| 00:12 | < Zed_> | -shrugs- I can't run an old app that uses text mode through putty, tho |
| 00:13 | < Zed_> | I did misunderstand, but now I get why I did. :P |
| 00:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Back in the day, you would have a computer, and connected to it over serial line you would have a terminal - a screen/keyboard combination that typically only did text. |
| 00:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Now we have raster monitors, but we still need a way of interacting with text mode applications - hence, the terminal emulator, which is a graphical program that reacts to characters coming from a program the same way one of these serial terminals would. |
| 00:14 | < Zed_> | I mean, running at 2560x1536, or whatever I was running at |
| 00:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which doesn't just mean displaying the characters as is, but also colour control, cursor positioning, switching between buffers, scrolling, changing codepages... |
| 00:14 | < Zed_> | the font sizes don't really work anymore |
| 00:14 | < Zed_> | yeah, I get that. |
| 00:15 | < Zed_> | handling cursor control through emulation of standard protocols etc. |
| 00:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Heh. "standard". |
| 00:15 | < Zed_> | and the ability to handle added in ones, like enhanced ANSI etc. |
| 00:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. As far as that goes, most terminal emulators provide some way for you to set some combination of font size, window size (px), and terminal size (rows/cols) |
| 00:16 | < Zed_> | -nods- |
| 00:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which even if they don't let you go fullscreen, at least lets you go nearly so by resizing the window (and scaling up its contents) to occupy most of the monitor. |
| 00:16 | < Zed_> | -nods- |
| 00:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | WinXP cmd.exe can do this, poorly. I don't know about vista/win7. |
| 00:16 | < Zed_> | I guess the other thing I could do is find a way to rip the dos text codepage into a complete font set |
| 00:17 | < Zed_> | WINXP does it poorly, as well, and defaults to a font with one size that's readable and the rest which look goddamn weird |
| 00:17 | < Zed_> | the other sizes also don't reflect what the programmers expected the user to see |
| 00:18 | < Zed_> | Other thing I could do is simply make a version of terminal.ttf with the other font sizes ripped out |
| 00:19 | < Zed_> | and just force windows to use pixel scaling on the fonts to handle stuff |
| 00:19 | < Zed_> | that's really the thing |
| 00:19 | < Zed_> | high-res, everything but console apps are readable and configurable just fine |
| 00:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | I guarantee you there are already fonts that have all the necessary characters. |
| 00:19 | < Zed_> | it's just console apps that don't handle well through CMD |
| 00:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | So use rxvt, or install a local ssh server and use PuTTY, or whatever |
| 00:20 | < Zed_> | yeah, but they don't look the same as the terminal/mode80 font |
| 00:20 | < Zed_> | OK, maybe you know something I don't |
| 00:21 | < Zed_> | does running a local SSH server and going in using putty allow me to run applications on the network and get my input back out through the serial terminal in a way that will function for legacy DOS fullscreen mode80 programs? |
| 00:21 | < Zed_> | see: colors etc. |
| 00:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...where does the serial terminal come into it? |
| 00:22 | < Zed_> | Kroz, old versions of wordperfect, side jobs involving archaic versions of people's account sofware, nethack, information queries I normally throw through CMD.EXE, etc. |
| 00:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | And, um. Maybe. I haven't tried. |
| 00:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although! |
| 00:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | If these are actual DOS programs you're using, why not just use dosbox? |
| 00:23 | < Zed_> | Because some of them aren't? |
| 00:23 | < Zed_> | like, some are using windows information |
| 00:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok |
| 00:23 | < Zed_> | win32 stuff with environment variables |
| 00:23 | < Namegduf> | Pretty sure NetHack works fine in cmd.exe |
| 00:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | So you have some DOS native apps (which I thought didn't run natively on win7 anyways?), and some text mode apps |
| 00:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which are nonetheless windows native |
| 00:23 | < Namegduf> | And maxes out dungeon display size at 80x25 |
| 00:24 | < Zed_> | works fine, yes, namegduf, but can't bring it to a usable size |
| 00:24 | < Namegduf> | But... the maximum supported size is about 80x25 |
| 00:24 | < Zed_> | I'm just wondering if there's a way to make something look like it would look on DOS |
| 00:24 | < Namegduf> | It will refuse to scale the dungeon larger. |
| 00:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | You can't just triple the font size or something? |
| 00:24 | < Zed_> | size on the screen, nameg. |
| 00:24 | < Namegduf> | At least in the original. |
| 00:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Namegduf: it will use extra space for inventory menu and whatnot, though |
| 00:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | -only- the dungeon is limited like that, not the rest of the UI |
| 00:25 | < Zed_> | toxic: tripling terminal will bring it to one of the other fonts |
| 00:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | How do you mean? |
| 00:25 | < Zed_> | I mean terminal.ttf has several sizes |
| 00:25 | < Namegduf> | ToxicFrog: That is pretty much "everything important", though. |
| 00:25 | < Zed_> | some of which look fine, like the old one, and some which look goddamn bizarre |
| 00:25 | < Namegduf> | I mean, given the surrounding parts of the display stick with it. |
| 00:25 | < Zed_> | if you open up a cmd.exe window and drag it? |
| 00:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Zed_: try Lucida Console? |
| 00:25 | < Namegduf> | I think. |
| 00:25 | < Zed_> | suddenly everything looks odd. |
| 00:25 | < Zed_> | the whole point is to NOT have it look different, toxic |
| 00:26 | < Zed_> | terminal.ttf at the standard size it opens is the closest cousin to the original dos font |
| 00:26 | < Namegduf> | Why not get a VM and install Windows 3.1 into it? |
| 00:26 | < Zed_> | I find it readable, etc. |
| 00:26 | | * ToxicFrog shrugs. Lucida works fine for me for doomrl and nethack, which is all I use cmd.exe for. |
| 00:26 | < Namegduf> | Or whatever OS was originally natively supported by these apps? |
| 00:26 | < Zed_> | again, because some things are win32 apps using windows environment variables |
| 00:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | If the problem is that terminal.ttf doesn't support scaling, try googling "classic DOS font" or similar |
| 00:26 | < Namegduf> | So set them up in the VM? |
| 00:26 | < Zed_> | ... |
| 00:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Namegduf: some of the apps are win7 apps which are command line |
| 00:27 | < Zed_> | no, like environment variables which change, who I need to know. |
| 00:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | And need to run on the host system in any case. |
| 00:27 | < Namegduf> | ToxicFrog: Okay. |
| 00:27 | < Zed_> | like when I'm setting file permissions to propagate through stuff in the command line |
| 00:28 | < Zed_> | The problem is that Terminal.ttf switches to other versions than the ...what is it, 8 point? |
| 00:28 | < Namegduf> | Zed_: Have you considered lowering your resolution? |
| 00:28 | < Zed_> | ... |
| 00:28 | < Zed_> | Yes, I have. |
| 00:28 | < Namegduf> | I mean, if I can't read text at the default size, I'd assume things are getting too small. |
| 00:28 | < Zed_> | which is something I would rather not have done, if I could do things in a way that made sense |
| 00:28 | < Zed_> | ie, it wasn't a problem on XP |
| 00:29 | < Zed_> | higher-resolution image editing etc. |
| 00:29 | < Zed_> | high-res actually has uses, believe it or not |
| 00:29 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:29 | < Namegduf> | I'll take your word for it. |
| 00:29 | < Namegduf> | Maybe you should consider separate solutions for different apps. |
| 00:29 | < Zed_> | ...paging through a stack of photos I've just taken with a camera, etc. |
| 00:30 | < Zed_> | As it sits, I do have to make do with separate solutions for different apps |
| 00:30 | < Namegduf> | It sounds like some of these want DOS emulation, and the others just want a bigger terminal size. |
| 00:30 | < Zed_> | but there's -no technological reason- it should be this way |
| 00:30 | < Zed_> | also, my favorite text editor for school is still wordperfect 5.1 |
| 00:30 | < Namegduf> | Aside that Windows hasn't been based on DOS since Windows NT |
| 00:30 | < Namegduf> | And I'm amazed the old DOS stuff works at all |
| 00:30 | < Namegduf> | Apparantly there isn't such a reason. |
| 00:31 | < Zed_> | It DOESN'T work, because it tries to fullscreen |
| 00:31 | < Zed_> | again, windows 7/vista don't have a fullscreen console emulation, even in a window, that XP did. |
| 00:32 | < Zed_> | Maybe I should look into the DOSBox source code and see if there's a way to use that code to handle the text pipe from the dos page |
| 00:33 | < Zed_> | basically take the display chunk functions out and use those and have the emulator, well, not emulate |
| 00:33 | < Zed_> | I'm obviously not dying, and my computer hasn't exploded |
| 00:33 | < Zed_> | I can switch resolutions or whatever any time it's a huge issue |
| 00:34 | < Zed_> | I can drop to 8x6 and run things in the top 2/3 of the screen |
| 00:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | What do you mean here by "fullscreen console emulation in a window"? |
| 00:34 | < Zed_> | but these are all rather irritating hacks with some equally irritating side effects (windows shoving all my icons around, whee maybe I should go get an icon management suite!) |
| 00:35 | < Zed_> | Like, xp would display all various codepage stuff fine, as though it were fullscreen, only not on the full screen. |
| 00:35 | < Zed_> | -shrugs- |
| 00:35 | < Zed_> | I don't always know WHAT the programs are doing |
| 00:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't understand how "as thought it were fullscreen" is different from the normal 80x25 display. |
| 00:36 | < Zed_> | I didn't write them, my coding stopped at C and whatever |
| 00:36 | < Zed_> | CMD.exe running in a window isn't normal 80x25, it's as you said, some functional approximation thereof, with some cool added features |
| 00:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | When did I say that? |
| 00:36 | < Zed_> | the ability to drag the window open so you can see more backscroll, for example |
| 00:36 | < Zed_> | OK, I'm saying that. |
| 00:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. |
| 00:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | I still don't understand what capability you're after. |
| 00:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Originally I thought the problem was "text mode apps are unreadable at the default font size, and terminal.ttf breaks when you try to scale it up, and I really want terminal.ttf or a lookalike" |
| 00:39 | < Zed_> | I've been looking for a good dos text font for a long time |
| 00:39 | < Zed_> | something that approximates the terminal/dostext look |
| 00:39 | | * Zed_ thinks that opening a font eiditor and trying to create a copy of terminal.ttf that strips out the other sizes of the font might do the trick |
| 00:39 | < Zed_> | I said that earlier |
| 00:40 | < Zed_> | but the idea is to be able to use console mode apps without a bunch of distracting stuff on the screen |
| 00:40 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-9b5c6d20.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 00:40 | < Zed_> | not least because white text on black background is murder on the eyes if it's next to a few brightly-colored blocks |
| 00:40 | < Orthia> | A challenge for the mathies: I'm trying to work out how to turn a games random number tokens into a dice system. |
| 00:41 | < Zed_> | white text on a black background taking up the whole screen is soothing. |
| 00:41 | < Orthia> | You have 3 sets of numbers 1-6, one 0, and one +. A + means you draw two and sum them. |
| 00:41 | < Zed_> | Pretend it's a problem you'd actually have any interest in solving or at least helping me outline the difficulties embarking on |
| 00:42 | < Zed_> | to wit: "I'd like to run console applications on windows vista or 7 fullscreen." |
| 00:43 | < Zed_> | I suppose I could fix the font, scale the window, and then use black tape along the edges of the window above the glass on the bezels |
| 00:45 | < Zed_> | and gain roughly the same functionality with a hack not too much more inconvenient than constantly fucking with resolutions. |
| 00:46 | < Zed_> | I suppose I could just boot XP some of the time, and still be able to ... wait, no, I can't share user permissions. |
| 00:46 | < Zed_> | and I'd have to shut down all applications every time |
| 00:46 | | * Zed_ is just trying to get a feeling for a software solution coding project as far as scope |
| 00:47 | < Zed_> | so, my question: any idea how much work is in front of me writing a replacement console thing that would use some sort of directx layer to pull to fullscreen for basic text editing? |
| 00:47 | < Zed_> | I asked that first, but |
| 00:47 | < Zed_> | -shrugs- |
| 00:47 | < McMartin> | Zed: You're basically saying "How hard would it be to reimplement a text editor using DirectDraw", which would, in fact, be a considerable task. |
| 00:48 | < McMartin> | You should find somebody else who tried it first and use theirs, most likely |
| 00:48 | < McMartin> | Or, instead, decide that fullscreen is rarely a good default what with this being the 21st century and all |
| 00:48 | < Zed_> | -laughs- |
| 00:48 | < Zed_> | well. :) |
| 00:48 | < Zed_> | yeah, I just saw your input at the very back of the scroll on this dialogue |
| 00:48 | < Zed_> | and was off in search of OpenConsole |
| 00:48 | < Zed_> | :) |
| 00:49 | < Zed_> | I also want to see if I can find anyone who's worked on the DOSBox project and get their input on this |
| 00:49 | < Zed_> | thank you, McM. :) |
| 00:49 | < McMartin> | Well, DOSBox is a full reimplementation of COMMAND.COM |
| 00:49 | < McMartin> | And an x86 emulator. |
| 00:49 | | * Zed_ nods |
| 00:49 | < Zed_> | I'm just curious about the display portion |
| 00:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although it may be possible, as you said, to extract only the terminal-emulation parts of it |
| 00:50 | < Zed_> | One advantage for that kind of thing is that honestly, fullscreen IS a bad thing |
| 00:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. There's a terminal emulator based on PuTTY's, but it's linux only |
| 00:50 | < Zed_> | but being able to resize a window without adjusting the contents is nice |
| 00:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | I know there's a windows version of rxvt, but it's nontrivial to configure |
| 00:50 | < Zed_> | as I do, sometimes, when running old DOS programs, in DOSBox |
| 00:50 | | * Zed_ grins |
| 00:50 | < celticminstrel> | Orthia: I think we'll need a bit more info than that... |
| 00:50 | < Zed_> | this whole thing looks fairly nontrivial |
| 00:51 | < Zed_> | Orthia: I'm not sure we understand the system you're describing, more accurately |
| 00:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | (which is to say, there's no configuration interface per se; all configuration is done with your choice of command line arguments or Xresources) |
| 00:52 | < Zed_> | But, yeah. The nice thing about doing something with a hardware layer is being able to fullscreen, or partial screen, or whatever, to something that works well |
| 00:52 | < Zed_> | a resize corner that forces aspect ratio constraint |
| 00:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Orthia: generate a random integer between -1 and 18 inclusive. If it's in the 1-18 range, /3 and ceil. If it's -1, recurse and discard duplicates. |
| 00:52 | < McMartin> | SDL has a library that operates vaguely like Quake's dropdown console. |
| 00:52 | < Zed_> | eh. I'm hoping to avoid having to reinvent color codes. :P |
| 00:53 | < Zed_> | though I may not have that luxury |
| 00:53 | < Zed_> | I haven't done any serious coding since college, but this is kind of a project of necessity |
| 00:53 | < Zed_> | and right now, I have time |
| 00:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Most of the apps you listed rely utterly on color codes and positioning serquencing. |
| 00:53 | | * Zed_ nods |
| 00:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | *positioning sequences. |
| 00:53 | < Zed_> | I know. |
| 00:54 | < McMartin> | I would suggest using Python and Curses, actually, which has a port to Windows Consoles. |
| 00:54 | < McMartin> | It does not let you fullscreen it by force, but this is in all seriousness Not Something You Should Care About |
| 00:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: the problem he's having is that the terminal emulator isn't behaving as he wants, so curses won't help you |
| 00:54 | < Zed_> | I need to open a google wave of this. |
| 00:54 | < Zed_> | having a more configurable terminal is my desire |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Zed_: just to make sure we're all on the same page, is this an accurate statement of the problem: |
| 00:55 | < Zed_> | again, this is the 21st century, and it seems a silly thing to just remove for as far as I can tell no reason |
| 00:55 | < Zed_> | totally right. |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | - the default terminal setup in win7 is unreadably small at your native resolution |
| 00:55 | < Zed_> | I'm just finding myself resizing resolutions way more often than I like |
| 00:55 | < Zed_> | Eh, I'm at 1280 now |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | - resizing the window causes the font to break, because terminal.ttf doesn't support resizing |
| 00:55 | < Zed_> | cuz, yeah, the default terminal was unreadable |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | - it won't go fullscreen |
| 00:56 | < Zed_> | I'm thinking that stripping out all but one size out of terminal.ttf might fix a lot of my problem, honestly |
| 00:56 | < McMartin> | Baffled at this, tbh |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | To my mind, the two easiest ways to fix this would be either to install a CP437-compatible font that does support 28pt or whatever you need |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or install a terminal emulator that supports fullscreen. |
| 00:56 | < McMartin> | I'm using Win7, on a laptop screen, with 1600x900 |
| 00:56 | < McMartin> | Default out of the box takes up a good quarter of the screenspace for 80x25 and is totally fine |
| 00:57 | < Zed_> | McM: two things |
| 00:57 | < Zed_> | one, was running 2530x1536, it's too small |
| 00:57 | < Namegduf> | How big is your screen? |
| 00:58 | < Zed_> | 24" |
| 00:58 | < Namegduf> | Huh. |
| 00:58 | < Zed_> | Eyes aren't the best. |
| 00:58 | < Zed_> | It's a nice resolution to run at when I want to be able to run a windowed app and a few other things on the screen at the same time |
| 00:59 | < Zed_> | have an instance of firefox running meebo for IMs for family, a layout project in the corner, maybe a movie if I'm feeling ADD |
| 00:59 | < Zed_> | eh. |
| 00:59 | < Zed_> | the same thing causes me to sometimes want to have JUST what I'm working on on my screen |
| 00:59 | < McMartin> | Suggested Solution #2: I set my font to Lucida Console 28 and it "stuck" |
| 01:00 | < Zed_> | fullscreen console stuff was perfect for that |
| 01:00 | < McMartin> | As in, showed up again on restarts |
| 01:00 | < Orthia> | celticminstrel: You do? Essentially, you have a 1 in 20 of getting a 0, a 1 in 20 of rolling two dice (Or similar 'crit' conditions), and a 18 in 20 chance of getting a roll of 1-6. |
| 01:00 | < Zed_> | Orthia: so more like a deck of cards than dice. |
| 01:00 | < Orthia> | The base gameplay is a deck of cards, yes. |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I suggested this earlier; I've been using Lucida Console for years quite happily. |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, it's not identical to the original IBM CP437 font, so it's out. |
| 01:01 | < Orthia> | I'm wondering if dice, or a couple dice of differing colors (One acting as a comparitor or something) can't be used to get a rough approximation. |
| 01:01 | < Zed_> | Thank you for the name of that font, toxic. |
| 01:01 | < McMartin> | Orthia: Unless the deck is reshuffled after every draw, dice and cards have fundamentally different probability distributions |
| 01:01 | < Zed_> | I might be able to find it and help a great deal of my issues |
| 01:01 | < Orthia> | McM: Deck is reshuffled after every draw (Or technically, tokens are replaced in the bag) |
| 01:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Orthia: I suggested a solution a page or so ago, on the assumption that it behaves like the Starforce random token bucket |
| 01:02 | | * Orthia hunts, he missed it, apologies |
| 01:02 | < Zed_> | I wonder if there's a way to make cmd.exe go "always-on-top" so as to allow me to move it wherever, like, over the taskbar |
| 01:02 | < Orthia> | Oh, I see |
| 01:02 | < Orthia> | The thing is, TF, I was wondering if I could do this via dice~ |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | -oh- |
| 01:02 | < Zed_> | Sure. |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Use a d20. |
| 01:03 | < Zed_> | If you don't mind having the 0 only on one die |
| 01:03 | < Zed_> | oh, you mean real dice. |
| 01:03 | < Zed_> | errr |
| 01:03 | < Zed_> | let me reexamine that |
| 01:03 | < celticminstrel> | Roll a d20. |
| 01:04 | < Zed_> | yeah |
| 01:04 | < Zed_> | that's 20 things. |
| 01:04 | < Zed_> | chart it out. |
| 01:04 | < celticminstrel> | (One with 20 different numbers on it; I seem to recall seeing one where each number appeared twice.) |
| 01:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Zed_: more specifically, my approach to nethack and doomrl is Lucida Console, 32-pt, which fills the entire screen (at 1650x1080) and works fine for both games. |
| 01:04 | < Zed_> | Or just do a substitution on a sheet |
| 01:04 | < celticminstrel> | Then roll 1 or 2 d6's if appropriate. |
| 01:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | (actually, my approach to nethack these days is to use PuTTY and play it on nethack.alt.org, but) |
| 01:04 | < Zed_> | is that 16:9 |
| 01:04 | < Zed_> | ? |
| 01:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | 16:10 |
| 01:04 | < celticminstrel> | Based on the result of the d20 roll. |
| 01:04 | < Zed_> | ah |
| 01:05 | < Zed_> | yeah, this is an old 4:3 CRT |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't know how well it'll work with, say, Kroz, or WordPerfect |
| 01:05 | < Zed_> | best and last of the old pro viewsonics. :) |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah, I had one of those |
| 01:05 | < Zed_> | ...question |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | P95f+ |
| 01:05 | < Orthia> | a d20? |
| 01:05 | < Zed_> | did I mention Kroz? |
| 01:05 | < Orthia> | hn |
| 01:05 | < Zed_> | yeah, that's the one |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Served me well for many years before I went LCD |
| 01:05 | < Zed_> | orthia: wait |
| 01:05 | < Zed_> | question |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Then acted as a monitor for my PS2 and Gamecube until I scaveged a TV |
| 01:05 | < Orthia> | Zed: Yes? |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | And now it's an end table |
| 01:05 | < Zed_> | how many numbers do you want with each roll? |
| 01:06 | < Orthia> | Just the one. |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Zed_: you did, in fact, mention Kroz |
| 01:06 | < Orthia> | But I'd be fine if it uses two dice or the like |
| 01:06 | < Zed_> | oh, that's easy |
| 01:06 | < Zed_> | OK. |
| 01:06 | < Zed_> | I was just wondering if anyone else actually REMEMBERED that |
| 01:06 | < Zed_> | I... uh. |
| 01:06 | < Zed_> | I've been rather nostalgic lately |
| 01:06 | < Zed_> | The feature about Mame that absolutely blew me away? |
| 01:06 | < Zed_> | and this is really sad |
| 01:06 | < Zed_> | pixel triads. |
| 01:07 | < Zed_> | to approximate the old super-low-quality TV tubes. |
| 01:07 | < celticminstrel> | Orthia: You will need at least two dice - a 20-sided die, and a 6-sided die. |
| 01:07 | < Orthia> | hn, OK. |
| 01:08 | < Orthia> | Roll them both, if a 1, it's 0, if a 20, its a +, anything else, read the d6? |
| 01:08 | < Zed_> | Wait, what? |
| 01:08 | < celticminstrel> | Sure. |
| 01:08 | < Zed_> | that's not the same distribution, I don't think |
| 01:08 | < celticminstrel> | Why not? |
| 01:08 | < Zed_> | explain the card system to me again |
| 01:09 | | * Orthia was pondering something with two dice - eg, black one and white one - and crit/fumbles on dice doublings or something. |
| 01:09 | < Orthia> | Granted, it gives us a pool of 36 to work from, but the exact probabilities are not crucial. |
| 01:09 | < Zed_> | So you're drawing one card each time? |
| 01:09 | < Zed_> | from a deck with 1-6 three times and a + and a 0? |
| 01:09 | < Orthia> | Grab token from bag, use, replace, redraw. |
| 01:09 | < Orthia> | Correct. |
| 01:09 | < Zed_> | uh |
| 01:10 | < Zed_> | you just roll a d20 |
| 01:10 | < Zed_> | 19 and 20 are the + and 0 |
| 01:10 | < Zed_> | otherwise it's the number divided by three rounded down |
| 01:10 | < Zed_> | err, up |
| 01:10 | < Zed_> | rounded up |
| 01:10 | < Orthia> | That requires math, and I already have spare d6s to shove in the box~ |
| 01:10 | < McMartin> | Alternately, mod 6 + 1. |
| 01:10 | < Zed_> | so like 1-3 are 1 etc. |
| 01:10 | < Zed_> | 4-6 are 2, etc. |
| 01:10 | < Zed_> | failing that? |
| 01:11 | < Zed_> | WRITE IT DOWN ON A PIECE OF PAPER. |
| 01:11 | | * Orthia laughs |
| 01:11 | < Zed_> | it'll fit on a playing card. |
| 01:11 | < Orthia> | Yeah, okay, okay |
| 01:11 | < Zed_> | you'll only have to roll one d20, once, and look at the lookup table. If you really want? |
| 01:11 | < Zed_> | you can put the + and 0 on opposite ends (1 and 20) for a sense of ...uh |
| 01:11 | < Zed_> | you know |
| 01:11 | < Zed_> | helps superstitious nerds |
| 01:11 | < McMartin> | Pretending to be TSR |
| 01:11 | < Zed_> | 20s, 1s |
| 01:12 | < Orthia> | It was as much an academic curiosity to whether or not you could come up with a roughly comparable mechanic using dice, as anything. Bonus points if the dice in question are d6s, with one being used as a check modifier. |
| 01:12 | < Zed_> | Oh. |
| 01:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Roll d20. If it's a 20, roll 2d6. If it's a 19, you get 0. If it's anything else, divide by 3 and round up. |
| 01:12 | < Zed_> | Um, d6s? |
| 01:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | (alternately, 20 is 2d6, 1 is nothing, anything else is 1d6) |
| 01:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. If you're just using d6s... |
| 01:12 | < celticminstrel> | ...wait... |
| 01:12 | < McMartin> | Well, there was the completely retarded d666 mechanic from In Nomine. |
| 01:12 | < Zed_> | that doesn't make sense |
| 01:12 | < Zed_> | lol |
| 01:12 | < Orthia> | TF: That was my first thought; rolling d6 and d20 simultaneously. |
| 01:13 | < Orthia> | d20 trumps d6 result, with 18 'go with the d6' values. |
| 01:13 | < Orthia> | Then I wondered if you couldn't get roughly similar probabilities out of a pair of d6s, with one of them being a crit/fumble check. |
| 01:13 | < celticminstrel> | What does + mean again? |
| 01:14 | < Orthia> | "Roll 2d6" - am fine if that involves a reroll or something. |
| 01:15 | < celticminstrel> | So, if you roll a d20 and a d6 simultaneously, 18 values mean you take the value of the d6; 1 value means you get 0; and one value means you take the value of the d6, re-roll the d6, and take the new value (and I assume you add them?). |
| 01:15 | < celticminstrel> | So, only one value means "ignore the d6". |
| 01:16 | < Orthia> | That's the currently most elegant solution, correct. |
| 01:16 | < Orthia> | My first thought was 'if the numbers on the dice match, you then X', so eg double-1s are fumble, double-6 is crit, but that's a 1 in 36 each. Maybe double-1 and double-2 are fumble, double-6 and double-5 are crit, for 1-in-23, but it then feels slightly odd to have two doubles that do Nothing. |
| 01:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | Orthia: roll 2d6 which you can tell apart. If the first one is a 1, 2, or 3, read the result from the second one. If you get a double 5, you get nothing. If you get a double 6, reroll both and sum them. |
| 01:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | Any other value, reroll. |
| 01:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Personally I prefer using a d20, but if you only have d6es around this may be useful. |
| 01:27 | < Orthia> | Hey, that works pretty good too. |
| 01:27 | < Orthia> | Well, I technically do /have/ a d20 |
| 01:27 | < Orthia> | But I have d6s spare~ |
| 01:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | (the approach is basically to treat 2d6 as a d20 by rerolling 16 of the 36 possible results) |
| 01:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | (this works all the way down to using a coin to generate random binary digits) |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | Overall distribution of results is like this: |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 1 way to get 0, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 3 ways to get 1 |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 4 ways to get 2 (either a 2 in the original row, or a crit rolling two 1's) |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 5 ways to get 3 (either a 2 in the original row, or a crit rolling a 1 and a 2) |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 3 ways to get 4 (crit) |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 4 ways to get 5 (crit) |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 5 ways to get 6 (crit) |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 6 ways to get 7 (crit) |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 5 ways to get 8 (crit) |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 4 ways to get 9 (crit) |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 3 ways to get 10 (crit) |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 2 ways to get 11 (crit) |
| 01:29 | < celticminstrel> | - 1 way to get 12 |
| 01:30 | < celticminstrel> | ^ first line should be "- 1 way to get 0" |
| 01:30 | < celticminstrel> | ^ s/row/roll/ |
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| 01:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: how do you figure you can only get 4+ on a crit? |
| 01:50 | < Orthia> | TF: Because I think they misunderstood that you have a 50% chance of reading a d6 naturally. |
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| 02:09 | < celticminstrel> | 2+, not 4+. |
| 02:09 | < celticminstrel> | A crit gives you from 2 to 12. |
| 02:09 | < celticminstrel> | Otherwise, you get from 0 to 3. |
| 02:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Er, no |
| 02:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you don't crit, you have 1 chance of 0 and 3 chances each of 1-6 |
| 02:10 | < celticminstrel> | Yes. |
| 02:10 | < celticminstrel> | Oh wait... |
| 02:11 | < celticminstrel> | Right, so add 3 to the number of ways to get 4, 5, or 6. |
| 02:12 | < celticminstrel> | 6 ways to get 4, 7 ways to get 5, 8 ways to get 6. |
| 02:13 | <@Vornicus> | it's a total of 55 possibilities. gneh |
| 02:53 | < Orthia> | Kinda messy, I think. |
| 02:54 | | * Orthia was wondering just how close "Roll white d6 and black d6, if doubles rolled, consult Rules" works out |
| 02:54 | < Orthia> | double 1s & double 2s = 2/36 = 1/23, correct? |
| 03:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | 2/36 != 1/23 |
| 03:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's 1/18 |
| 03:37 | < Orthia> | Ach! |
| 03:37 | < Orthia> | Good lord, that was an awful mental typo. |
| 03:37 | < Orthia> | OTOH, I'm also totally okay with that. |
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| 04:21 | < Zed_> | Orthia: I was working that out in my head over a game of cribbage. :) |
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| 04:22 | < Zed_> | I just wanted to thank frog and watcher and Mcm for their help earlier outlining my issue. |
| 04:23 | | * Rhamphoryncus reads the scrollback and tries to figure out what the heck you've been doing |
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| 17:31 | < gnolam> | Mmm, cross posting. |
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| 20:49 | | * Vornicus fiddles with it. Damn this algorithm is complicated. |
| 21:11 | <@Vornicus> | Reason #54 to use euclid over prime factorization: gcd is 3 lines; prime factorization is... well I haven't finished it yet. |
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| --- Log closed Sat Feb 27 00:00:05 2010 |