| --- Log opened Fri Feb 05 00:00:32 2010 |
| 00:21 | < celticminstrel> | AppleScript has half-decent documentation. |
| 00:22 | < celticminstrel> | No idea what NSIS is. |
| 00:24 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:24 | <@Derakon> | Weirdest bug I've ever seen. |
| 00:24 | <@Derakon> | One of the biologists was having a problem yesterday. He was taking images of his cells, and getting very irregular exposure times -- like, +-5ms on a 10ms exposure. |
| 00:24 | <@Derakon> | So today I got on the scope and tried to reproduce the problem... |
| 00:25 | <@Derakon> | And I determined that the only time that the exposure time exhibited any variance was when the sum of the exposure time and the time between exposures was 33ms. |
| 00:29 | <@Derakon> | One of my coworkers theorized that the 30Hz exposure rate is now experiencing interference from the power lines. |
| 00:29 | <@Derakon> | Of course, this wasn't happening two weeks ago. |
| 00:36 | <@Vornicus> | that is pretty weird. |
| 00:39 | <@McMartin> | celticminstrel: Where? |
| 00:39 | <@McMartin> | I have literally never had Applescript problems that were not solved via random, flailing Google searches. |
| 00:40 | <@McMartin> | Apple's Applescript dev page seems to boil down to: "Applescript! SO AWESOME! FAQ: How awesome is AppleScript, anyway?" and maybe three bits of sample code that don't actually include, you know, syntax or even complete statement lists. |
| 00:40 | <@McMartin> | NSIS is the worst installer generator for Windows except for all the other ones. |
| 00:54 | < Tarinaky> | The documentation for Lua is just pages and pages of BNFs. |
| 00:54 | <@McMartin> | I would run down nuns with a tank for AppleScript BNFs. |
| 00:55 | <@McMartin> | (not literally) |
| 00:55 | < Tarinaky> | If I had AppleScript BNFs I'd be disappointed that you didn't mean it literally. |
| 00:55 | < Tarinaky> | I'd even look up the cost of a small tank on ebay! |
| 01:01 | < celticminstrel> | I am referring to the developer site, actually (the AppleScript Language Guide). It's not the best of references, but it seems to cover most of the basics. |
| 01:01 | < celticminstrel> | As for BNFs... |
| 01:03 | < celticminstrel> | I think they'd probably just create more confusion, really. At least, until you stare at them for hours to puzzle out what they mean. |
| 01:03 | < Tarinaky> | To be fair, the Lua documentation is pretty good. |
| 01:05 | < celticminstrel> | The AppleScript documentation may be missing some things, though. (Such as "path to me".) Unless that's just an organization flaw. |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | The language guide is significantly better than anything else I've found. |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | I'm not sure why it wasn't showing up in my ADC searches. =P |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | I was getting these black-background pages that looked more like http://www.apple.com/startpage/ than documentation |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | Which is to say, on par with Ruby. =P |
| 01:05 | < celticminstrel> | I got it from the Script Editor help menu. |
| 01:06 | < celticminstrel> | Which is better than the Classic days, when it was harder to find. |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | Ahaha, there's the ADC I know and love |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | I go to "Getting Started with AppleScript" |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | Click the "In-Depth Reference Guides" link |
| 01:07 | <@McMartin> | Get, among other things, "SMIL Scripting Guide for QuickTime" |
| 01:11 | < celticminstrel> | Oh, AppleScript can nest comments! |
| 01:40 | | AbuDhabi [annodomini@Nightstar-0540d934.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [[NS] Quit: Gnarg.] |
| 02:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: the documentation for lua is awesome, provided you are already a programmer. |
| 02:04 | < Tarinaky> | Considering it's an extension language designed to be integrated with C/C++ this assumption is not unreasonable. |
| 02:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. I would actually theorize that you need more background than C/++ to fully grok the reference manual, since it casually makes use of concepts (closures, continuations, etc) that C/++ don't have |
| 02:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | But I haven't done science to this hypothesis. |
| 02:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...and come to think of it it was my first exposure to both of those concepts, although I had worked in other HLLs previously. |
| 02:07 | < Tarinaky> | I have to admit, I've only read the beginning of the documentation and quickly scanned through the rest. |
| 02:07 | < Tarinaky> | So I don't really have a functional knowledge. Just enough to go - "Neat." |
| 02:12 | <@McMartin> | Yay! |
| 02:12 | | * McMartin is made of victory |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | tbqh the layout of the docs is weird |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | First two chapters are info and the language itself |
| 02:12 | | * McMartin got a feature request this morning, and just turned it over to QA where it just passed the basic feature acceptance tests |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Then you have two chapters of the C API to the interpreter |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | And then you have the in-Lua standard library reference |
| 02:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and then you have stuff like the formal grammar and whatnot) |
| 02:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: rawk. |
| 02:13 | < Tarinaky> | I think I only got as far as the first 3 chapters or so. |
| 02:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Chapter 3 is where the C starts. |
| 02:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you are planning only to use Lua itself, rather than write C modules for Lua or include Lua in a larger project, you can safely skip chapters 3 and 4, which pertain to talking to Lua from C and vice versa. |
| 02:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | (the whole thing, incidentally, is 8 chapters long, with 4 of those being around one page each) |
| 02:22 | < Tarinaky> | TBH including Lua in a larger project rather seemed the point. |
| 02:23 | < Tarinaky> | At least from my perspective. |
| 02:25 | <@McMartin> | More or less |
| 02:25 | <@McMartin> | The excellent indie action-adventure game Aquaria is mostly written in it |
| 02:26 | <@McMartin> | As are most of the later-era LucasArts games |
| 02:27 | <@Derakon> | AIUI Lua basically exists to be embedded into C. |
| 02:27 | <@Derakon> | Or at least that was one of the guiding principles behind its design. |
| 02:30 | <@McMartin> | "Lua" is Brazilian Portuguese for "Moon", so yeah |
| 02:30 | <@Derakon> | ...non sequitor? |
| 02:30 | <@McMartin> | It's designed to orbit around a core system. |
| 02:30 | <@Derakon> | Ah. |
| 02:30 | <@McMartin> | It's a Brazilian university that makes it |
| 02:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | It was in fact originally written to replace the configuration language Sol |
| 02:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | And yes, its core goal is to be used as an embedding language. |
| 02:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: while this is the case, it's also usable as a stand-alone language, and in that case, or when someone else has already done the embedding and you're just looking at it from the lua side (for example, when modding a game), you don't really need to know the Lua<->C interface. |
| 02:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you're writing something yourself that embeds Lua it is of course vital. |
| 02:35 | < Tarinaky> | I imagine that half the point of Lua is that you add new functions to it in C so you'll probably need to document the API that the Users have to use anyway. |
| 02:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Um? |
| 02:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, but it'll be a lua API that you're documenting |
| 02:35 | < Tarinaky> | For the new functions that control whatever it is you've added. |
| 02:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you write a game that has, say, a move_entity() function in C, and you export that function to Lua so modders can use it, they don't need to know the C signature for it, only the Lua one |
| 02:36 | < Tarinaky> | Yeah. But you need to document the Lua signature. |
| 02:37 | < Tarinaky> | There's not much point adding anything if you don't tell people about it >.> |
| 02:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. But my point is that knowledge of how the C half of the program is called, how it accesses the arguments passed to it from lua and supplies return values, etc is completely irrelevant to that. |
| 02:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | From the user's perspective, that is, not the implementor's. |
| 02:38 | < Tarinaky> | My point is that you'd end up having to write your own implementation specific documentation. |
| 02:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | You can, for example, quite happily write mods for Supreme Commander without referring to any part of the manual apart from chapters 2 and 5. |
| 02:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...yes, that's the case with any library |
| 02:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | But it has nothing to do with the C interface from the user's perspective |
| 02:38 | < Tarinaky> | Would it be wrong to include chapters 2 and 5 in said documentation? |
| 02:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and much of it doesn't even need to be written in C - it's not uncommon to expose low-level functions in C and then have your game/whatever wrap them in higher-level Lua code) |
| 02:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | What? |
| 02:39 | < Tarinaky> | >.< |
| 02:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | The question doesn't make sense, or I fail at comprehending it |
| 02:40 | < Tarinaky> | I... I don't really know how to communicate my point better. |
| 02:40 | < Tarinaky> | Sorry. |
| 02:41 | <@Derakon> | As a general rule, documentation for APIs should assume that the person reading the documentation already knows how to program in the language. |
| 02:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: as far as I can tell, you're arguing that knowledge of the Lua<->C API is relevant for people using Lua even if they never see the C side of it. |
| 02:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which makes no sense to me, so I'm probably misinterpreting your position. |
| 02:46 | < Tarinaky> | No. No it isn't. |
| 02:46 | < Tarinaky> | I'm arguing that the people who you've got to advertise and instill with enphusiasm are the people who implement it. |
| 02:46 | < Tarinaky> | The users that have to code in Lua won't get a say in it anyway. |
| 02:47 | < Tarinaky> | And internal documents will have to be circulated regardless of the official documentation. |
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| 02:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok... |
| 02:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Now I'm really confused |
| 02:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because I said, in effect, "end users don't need chapters 3/4, those only deal with the C API" |
| 02:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | You replied "<Tarinaky> I imagine that half the point of Lua is that you add new functions to it in C so you'll probably need to document the API that the Users have to use anyway." and I interpreted this as disagreement |
| 02:51 | < Tarinaky> | I thought you were arguing against their positioning. |
| 02:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh. I am. |
| 02:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Chapters 2 and 5 are useful no matter what you're doing with it. |
| 02:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Chapters 3 and 4 are useful only if you're embedding or extending it. |
| 02:51 | < Tarinaky> | I was, badly, arguing that the order makes sense to include them there if you're addressing the document to an implementor. |
| 02:52 | < Tarinaky> | "the people who you've got to advertise and instill with enphusiasm are the people who implement it." |
| 02:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | So if you're a Lua-only programmer, the organization of the document is "language stuff, two chapters of confusing and irrelevant stuff, library stuff" |
| 02:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you're a Lua/C programmer, the organization if "half of the lua stuff, all of the C stuff, the other half of the lua stuff" |
| 02:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and note that there are no dependencies between chapter 5 and chapters 3/4) |
| 02:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | My argument is that "lua language, lua library, C library" makes more sense to both demographics than "lua language, C library, lua library" |
| 02:53 | < Tarinaky> | TBH. At this point, I just want to walk away. |
| 02:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 02:54 | < Tarinaky> | From the discussion. I am bored of it. |
| 02:54 | < Tarinaky> | Sorry. |
| 03:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh. |
| 03:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have long since accepted the fact that not everyone finds a debate on document structure to be engaging~ |
| 03:02 | < Tarinaky> | Thanks for understanding, lol. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Feb 05 16:44:04 2010 |
| --- Log opened Fri Feb 05 16:44:17 2010 |
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| 21:16 | | * TheWatcher vaguely stabs curl |
| 21:17 | < TheWatcher> | why will you not compile with ssl, damnit |
| 21:33 | < gnolam> | Hmm. Is it normal to comment one's (CGI) front-end code with "THIS SIDE TOWARDS ENEMY"? |
| 21:37 | <@Vornicus> | No, but at least it's funny. |
| 22:03 | <@McMartin> | man, it took me longer than it should have to read 'CGI front-end' and not think 'HollywoodOS' |
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| 22:13 | < Tarinaky> | gnolam: I love it. |
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| 22:27 | < gnolam> | McMartin: Heh |
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| --- Log closed Sat Feb 06 00:00:33 2010 |