| --- Log opened Wed Jan 13 00:00:07 2010 |
| 00:00 | < PinkFreud> | heh |
| 00:11 | <@Vornicus> | McM: holy mother of god. |
| 00:13 | | * Vornicus looks it up in the Encyclopedia of Triangle Centers. Oh, that is not, in the slightest, a nice center. |
| 00:16 | | * Vornicus does some math, hunts up Euclid to guide him, he knows there's something about this. |
| 00:17 | <@Vornicus> | ...oh. |
| 00:17 | <@Vornicus> | What you're actually looking for... is 120-degree "pythagorean triples" |
| 00:19 | <@Vornicus> | Wow, I don't even know how I'd find those. |
| 00:21 | <@Vornicus> | well okay brute force would do it but preobably slowly. |
| 00:25 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:27 | <@Vornicus> | hrmng. okay maybe not, what's going on here. |
| 00:28 | <@Vornicus> | Oh, I see. The problem stipulates no more than 120 degrees, which makes everyone's life easier! |
| 00:30 | | * Vornicus throws McM at #projecteuler. |
| 00:31 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
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| 06:23 | < Tarinaky> | Heya. Anyone about? |
| 06:27 | <@Vornicus> | ? |
| 06:36 | < Tarinaky> | I was wondering if I could get someone to check my understanding of how a plasma fractal works/could be used. |
| 06:37 | | * Vornicus looks up plasma fractal. |
| 06:38 | <@Vornicus> | ah that. |
| 06:38 | < Tarinaky> | http://tarinaky.pastebin.com/m409bcee4 |
| 06:38 | < Tarinaky> | (No code, just diagrams and text >.>) |
| 06:49 | < Tarinaky> | My understanding is I can also use plasma fractals to determine city zoning/lot types. Which just leaves roads and buildings :x |
| 06:59 | < Tarinaky> | If I understand it, using the latter case I have a worst case (the bay is in the south-west or north-west most point) of ~60^2 iterations to determine the height of a given tile. |
| 06:59 | < Tarinaky> | Or is it ~120... |
| 06:59 | | * Tarinaky checks. |
| 07:01 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 07:06 | < Tarinaky> | Sorry. Only 4E20 iterations. Which may or may not be too bad. |
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| 07:20 | <@Vornicus> | 4E20? that's a lot of iterations... |
| 07:20 | <@Vornicus> | or do you mean 4**20? |
| 07:21 | | * Tarinaky double checks. |
| 07:21 | < Tarinaky> | I think I might have meant 4*20. |
| 07:21 | < Tarinaky> | Yes. I meant 4*20. |
| 07:21 | < Tarinaky> | So 60. |
| 07:22 | < Tarinaky> | -.- I fail colossally, lol. |
| 07:23 | < Tarinaky> | Possibly slightly less than that. I rounded up 1E6 (length of one side) to 2^20. |
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| 15:12 | < Uninaky> | Hey all. |
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| 18:05 | | Derakon[work] [Derakon@Nightstar-1ffd02e6.ucsf.edu] has joined #code |
| 18:06 | < Derakon[work]> | Well! Finally got nmake to generate the debugging symbols file. |
| 18:06 | < Derakon[work]> | All it took was adding /DEBUG to the linker's flags. |
| 18:06 | < Derakon[work]> | The best part about figuring all this out is how this is never stated explicitly anywhere. I had to infer it. |
| 18:07 | < Derakon[work]> | Now my crash-on-startup appears to be happening in WinMainCRTStartup, though, so I don't know that I've actually gained anything here. Why would the C runtime be crashing? |
| 18:16 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-a62bd960.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #code |
| 18:34 | < Tarinaky> | http://tarinaky.pastebin.com/m7ca7903c << I'd appreciate thoughts/comments on this :x |
| 18:37 | < Derakon[work]> | I wouldn't worry about memory footprint to start out. |
| 18:37 | < Derakon[work]> | And using 1 byte for elevation is likely to make a chunky-looking map. |
| 18:38 | < Tarinaky> | It's for an ASCII game. I figure there's a minimum level of fidelity. |
| 18:38 | < Derakon[work]> | Ah. |
| 18:40 | < Derakon[work]> | Still, make a design that works first. Then worry about size. |
| 18:40 | < Derakon[work]> | You can always just run your mapfiles through gzip. |
| 18:42 | < Tarinaky> | True. Still. The memory footprint thing doesn't actually make a difference to the generation. |
| 18:42 | < Tarinaky> | Just how it's stored/recalled. |
| 18:45 | < Tarinaky> | Anyway. I'm just musing. Not coding. |
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| 18:50 | < Derakon[work]> | Argh, I really don't like this work. >.< |
| 18:50 | < Derakon[work]> | Why the fuck doesn't this program run? |
| 18:50 | < Derakon[work]> | At least to a point in code that I actually control! |
| 18:50 | <@TheWatcher> | Are you running inside a debugger, or attaching on crash? |
| 18:50 | < Derakon[work]> | Attaching on crash. |
| 18:51 | < Derakon[work]> | I can't run inside a debugger because the program is invoked via a batch script that sets up some environment variables first. |
| 18:51 | <@TheWatcher> | Set the variables globally, and then run the debugger, and run the program from inside? |
| 18:51 | < Derakon[work]> | How would I do that? |
| 18:51 | < Derakon[work]> | <--- Not a Windows expert by any stretch of the imagination. |
| 18:52 | <@TheWatcher> | On XP? Start -> Settings -> Control Panel -> System, advanced tab, environment variables button |
| 18:53 | <@TheWatcher> | add the variables you need to the system if you can (just in case, to avoid user issues) |
| 18:53 | < Tarinaky> | Open up cmd: "type foo.bat", use the command that the .bat file uses to set the env variable... |
| 18:53 | < Tarinaky> | 3) ??? 4)Profit! |
| 18:54 | < Derakon[work]> | Hm...some of them use others in their definitions. How do I enforce an order on the variables getting interpreted? |
| 18:54 | <@TheWatcher> | NFC, I'd manually expand them for now, if possible. |
| 18:55 | < Derakon[work]> | Two of them that are getting set are PATH and PYTHONPATH. |
| 18:55 | < Derakon[work]> | Which really need to get appended to. |
| 18:55 | < Derakon[work]> | (Though I guess they can refer to themselves just fine) |
| 18:55 | < Tarinaky> | Edit your existing path to include the extra data. |
| 18:55 | < Tarinaky> | If you're doing it the GUI way you edit the existing variable. |
| 18:56 | < Tarinaky> | Rather than adding a new one. |
| 18:56 | <@TheWatcher> | You should already have a Path in system variables, yeah. |
| 18:56 | <@TheWatcher> | Just bung ;C:\foo\bar on the end as needed |
| 18:57 | < Derakon[work]> | Holy cow there's a lot of crap in the system PATH variable. |
| 18:57 | < Derakon[work]> | Path, PATH, path, whatever. |
| 18:58 | <@McMartin> | Yay case insensitivity |
| 18:58 | <@McMartin> | And yeah, that's what happens when there's no "bin" |
| 18:59 | < Derakon[work]> | Raaaahhhh... |
| 19:00 | <@McMartin> | http://santiago.mapache.org/toys/jager/ |
| 19:00 | < Derakon[work]> | Trying to read the ridiculously long PYTHONPATH line in Notepad...I scroll horizontally over, then flip to the variable edit panel, and Notepad fucking scrolls back to the left! |
| 19:00 | <@McMartin> | Notepad++, for *serious*. |
| 19:02 | < Derakon[work]> | I just...really hate Windows. >.< |
| 19:04 | < Derakon[work]> | Okay, environment variables set. Run the program from within WinDbg. I get two "Unknown exception"s right off the bat; the call stack has the warning "Stack unwind information not available. Following frames may be wrong" with three frames that don't really look helpful. |
| 19:05 | < Derakon[work]> | If I try to continue the debugger I get the message "WARNING: Continuing a non-continuable exception". |
| 19:06 | <@TheWatcher> | ... has that binary been linked properly? |
| 19:06 | < Derakon[work]> | So far as I know! |
| 19:07 | < Derakon[work]> | I'm using almost the same makefile for this version (the build-against-Python2.5 version) as for the build-against-Python2.4 version; only differences are changing a dependency path, python24 => python25, and building in debug mode to get PDB files. |
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| 20:32 | <@McMartin> | Derakon: Not that this helps, but it sounds like wx is throwing somewhere in its initializer. |
| 20:32 | | * TheWatcher ponders |
| 20:34 | <@TheWatcher> | Out of curiosity, you can't stick a breakpoint right at the beginning of your main and see if it dies before then? >.> |
| 20:35 | <@McMartin> | I think we've already confirmed that it is; it's dying in wx's main which runs before yours. |
| 20:36 | <@TheWatcher> | huh. I've never used wx, so I assumed it did something like gtk_init or something instead. |
| 20:37 | <@McMartin> | wx, like SDL and possibly Qt, tends to #define main to some other token |
| 20:38 | <@McMartin> | Since the real program initialiation code will not only vary in details but even in implementation language across platforms. |
| 20:38 | <@McMartin> | (That said, I'm not positive I'm remembering right where the crash was) |
| 20:53 | | * Derakon[work] returns from lunch. |
| 20:53 | < Derakon[work]> | Yeah, if the crash was occurring in code I had control over, I'd be happier. |
| 20:53 | < Derakon[work]> | But it's not. |
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| 22:24 | <@McMartin> | >_< |
| 22:24 | | * McMartin has a problem best solved by Perl ;_; |
| 22:30 | < Derakon[work]> | VICTOIRE! |
| 22:30 | < Derakon[work]> | Guess what the problem was! |
| 22:33 | < Derakon[work]> | McM: oh, you poor dear. |
| 22:33 | < Derakon[work]> | (The problem turned out to be me assuming that just copying the Python25 and wxPython-2.8.7.1 directories from one computer to another would be enough to get working installs of both) |
| 22:37 | <@McMartin> | D'oh |
| 22:43 | < Derakon[work]> | I spent the last week working on this crap. >.< |
| 22:43 | <@McMartin> | Well, now you have some procedures to document~ |
| 22:43 | <@McMartin> | And some experience with WinDbg, which is honestly p. awesome for attacking random programs with |
| 22:46 | | * McMartin solves his problem with perl -ne |
| 22:46 | <@McMartin> | I probably *could* have done this with awk, but Perl's guaranteed to be installed and I'm not sure if awk is. |
| 22:47 | <@McMartin> | Also, I know Perl better than awk. |
| 22:48 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 23:10 | <@TheWatcher> | Derakon: ugh, yeah |
| 23:11 | <@TheWatcher> | Installers, and the joys of doing any fucking thing on windows |
| 23:11 | <@McMartin> | Pity that for software that isn't in some sense part of the OS, Windows has the only sane system >_< |
| 23:11 | <@McMartin> | "Make every program ever part of the OS" is a temporary solution at best. |
| 23:12 | < Namegduf> | Not really. |
| 23:12 | < Namegduf> | Package management doesn't require something to be part of the OS; observe Chrome and WINE for good examples. |
| 23:12 | < Namegduf> | They run their own repos. |
| 23:13 | <@McMartin> | Yes, I don't consider reinventing the wheel once per application to be an acceptable solution. |
| 23:13 | <@McMartin> | But that wasn't quite what I meant either. |
| 23:13 | <@McMartin> | You need a *notion* of a "package". |
| 23:13 | <@McMartin> | And some central way of tracking it. |
| 23:13 | < Namegduf> | And updating it, yeah. |
| 23:14 | <@McMartin> | The Linux distros have it as long as your programs of interest are part of the distro. |
| 23:14 | < Namegduf> | Not essentially. |
| 23:14 | | * Namegduf points to Chrome, again. |
| 23:14 | <@McMartin> | Chrome is a Windows program. |
| 23:14 | <@McMartin> | Do you mean Chromium or is this something else? |
| 23:14 | < Namegduf> | Um... no, it's crossplatform. |
| 23:15 | < Namegduf> | Google Chrome has been released as Beta on Linux for months, dude. |
| 23:15 | <@McMartin> | I thought they renamed it as part of that. |
| 23:15 | < Namegduf> | No, Chromium is the open source project, Chrome is Google's official build of it. |
| 23:15 | < Namegduf> | It's been that way since initial announcement. |
| 23:15 | <@McMartin> | OK |
| 23:15 | <@McMartin> | My point stands, though, that this would not have avoided Derakon's issue. |
| 23:16 | < Namegduf> | Anyways; you download the package from their website, install it, it adds Google's official repo to your repo list automatically |
| 23:16 | <@McMartin> | That's integrating with an OS-wide package manager. |
| 23:16 | < Namegduf> | Exactly. |
| 23:16 | < Namegduf> | And it's a perfectly good solution. |
| 23:16 | | celticminstrel [celticminstre@Nightstar-f8b608eb.cable.rogers.com] has left #code [] |
| 23:16 | < Namegduf> | And Linux has it; people just need to use it. |
| 23:16 | < Namegduf> | And it doesn't have to be "part of the OS" to use it. |
| 23:16 | <@McMartin> | See, on Windows, everyone actually *does* use the Uninstall Registry~ |
| 23:16 | <@McMartin> | I consider the package manager to be part of the OS. |
| 23:17 | < Namegduf> | Um, so "being a package" is part of the OS. Okay. |
| 23:17 | <@McMartin> | Well, more "applications come in packages is part of the OS's core idiom", but sure. |
| 23:17 | <@McMartin> | *as part of |
| 23:17 | < Namegduf> | Then yes, your alternatives are between having standardised installation packages, and homebrew ones. |
| 23:17 | < Namegduf> | As your definitions go, they're defined as opposites of each other. |
| 23:18 | < Namegduf> | The obvious answer is "use the former"> |
| 23:18 | <@McMartin> | Actually, the opposition is to "applications and directories are the same thing, like Mac pretends to be" |
| 23:18 | <@McMartin> | (Except it's not, which is why you need .pkg, which has no uninstall mechanism.) |
| 23:18 | < Namegduf> | That's... a subset of the former. |
| 23:18 | < Namegduf> | Or rather, an example of. |
| 23:19 | < Namegduf> | Anyways, by your definition, there's no reason not to be "part of the OS" |
| 23:19 | <@McMartin> | Precludes a fair amount of Important Installatoin Stuff. |
| 23:19 | <@McMartin> | Quite. |
| 23:19 | < Namegduf> | So that's my recommendation. |
| 23:19 | <@McMartin> | Yes, mine too. |
| 23:19 | <@McMartin> | However, this implies that copying directories is not the same thing as installing it. |
| 23:19 | <@McMartin> | And one should never assume this on Windows or Linux. |
| 23:19 | <@McMartin> | And if someone does this, and it doesn't work, it is not in fact fair to blame the OS for it. |
| 23:19 | < Namegduf> | The program can allow it, but it's messy and ugly |
| 23:20 | < Namegduf> | And for the OS to integrate it is a tricky problem; though solvable. |
| 23:20 | < Namegduf> | (See GoboLinux for a shoddy implmentation of it) |
| 23:20 | <@McMartin> | Sorcery, too, IIRC. |
| 23:20 | < Namegduf> | Sorcery? |
| 23:20 | <@McMartin> | Sorcery Linux? |
| 23:20 | <@McMartin> | I think that's the one. |
| 23:20 | < Namegduf> | Ah, not familiar. |
| 23:20 | <@McMartin> | That, Arch, and Gobo are the ones UQM has fielded questions from in setting up UQM to work this way |
| 23:21 | <@McMartin> | Mac *almost* reaches this by default, but the exceptions become fantastically ugly. |
| 23:22 | < Namegduf> | The only problem with package management on Linux as is, is that for its purposes, every distro is a "different operating system". |
| 23:22 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, I was kind of sneaking that assumption in. |
| 23:22 | < Namegduf> | We really really need a single dictionary for specifying requirements, and a single package format. |
| 23:23 | < Namegduf> | And preferrably a way of saying "Look for updates here". |
| 23:23 | <@McMartin> | This is why I give the nod to Windows for "best tracking of installed packages" - it's just a simple uniform table of "name, version, uninstall command". It doesn't do updates, though, so it's not a complete solution. |
| 23:23 | < Namegduf> | It's a woefully incomplete solution, as far as I'm concerned. |
| 23:23 | <@McMartin> | But it's dead simple to do third-party modular support. |
| 23:23 | < Namegduf> | And useless to the point it may as well not be there. |
| 23:24 | < Namegduf> | No dependency management, no updates, it's missing the primary features it gives users. |
| 23:24 | <@McMartin> | Having had to do cross-platform installer work, I have to disagree mightily |
| 23:24 | < Namegduf> | It's simple and easy because it's basically "nothing". |
| 23:24 | < Namegduf> | Lack of flaws by *not being there* doesn't make it better |
| 23:24 | <@McMartin> | The end-result workflows for basic install/uninstall tasks on Windows vs. Mac are night and day for us. |
| 23:25 | < Namegduf> | That's because Mac is half there and a mess. |
| 23:25 | <@McMartin> | The closest Mac has to proper uninstallation is "download this script and run it, because there isn't anywhere we can actually put it during install where it will be sensibly reachable." |
| 23:25 | < Namegduf> | Windows not being there is "easier" |
| 23:25 | <@McMartin> | For both developer and end user |
| 23:25 | <@McMartin> | Sounds like a win to me. |
| 23:25 | < Namegduf> | In the case of Mac, yeah. |
| 23:26 | < Namegduf> | I have to say that's the one reason I wouldn't use OS X. |
| 23:26 | < Namegduf> | After getting nice and used to package management, I just hate anything "lacking it". |
| 23:26 | <@McMartin> | MacPorts is actually worse than nothing |
| 23:26 | < Namegduf> | Yes, it is. |
| 23:26 | < Namegduf> | And "We have it, it just lacks all features due to fundamentally failing to tackle many of the fundamental issues around providing them." doesn't count, for Windows. |
| 23:27 | < Namegduf> | It isn't that it doesn't provide an update button, it's that it fails to track places to get updates and have any format for making update requests. |
| 23:27 | < Namegduf> | If you get what I mean. |
| 23:28 | < Namegduf> | Mac doesn't count either, for similar reasons. |
| 23:29 | | * Derakon[work] sighs. |
| 23:29 | < Derakon[work]> | Asked the boss to take a look at one of our cameras, which is working in video mode (i.e. continual-imaging) but doesn't work in shutter mode (i.e. single-image). |
| 23:30 | < Derakon[work]> | He goes back behind the rack closet to take a look at the connections, and discovers that one of the screws on the serial cable head that handles analog signals is missing. |
| 23:30 | < Derakon[work]> | (The cameras, of course, run on digital signals). |
| 23:30 | < Derakon[work]> | So now the computer's sitting disassembled on a desk while he searches for a new screw to insert into the backplate for the card, because this is Clearly the Problem. |
| 23:31 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
| 23:33 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:35 | < Derakon[work]> | Seeya, TW. |
| 23:36 | <@TheWatcher[T-2]> | Good luck with the boss >.< |
| 23:36 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Thu Jan 14 00:00:08 2010 |