| --- Log opened Thu Oct 29 00:00:51 2009 |
| 00:02 | | Orthia [Orthianz@Nightstar-f43ceab0.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 00:07 | < gnolam> | Finally. |
| 00:08 | < gnolam> | Sunrise and sunset times now fall within 5 minutes of USNO's calculations. |
| 00:09 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:10 | < gnolam> | (It's probably more accurate than that, but it's hard to time it properly.) |
| 00:18 | < gnolam> | Now I can begin refactoring. |
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| 06:04 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
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| 09:04 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 09:47 | | gnolaptop [drwest@Nightstar-b2f3d77c.netlogon.liu.se] has joined #code |
| 09:47 | | * gnolaptop stabs Xchat. |
| 09:47 | < gnolaptop> | A self-signed certificate is NOT an "invalid certificate", goddamnit. |
| 09:54 | <@TheWatcher> | Hah |
| 09:55 | <@TheWatcher> | You wouldn't believe the amount of carrying-on I get from students (and even, depressingly, some staff) about the self-signed cert on the department's moodle system near the start of semester. |
| 09:56 | <@TheWatcher> | (it's required for logging in and nothing else, /of course/ I can persuade the department to budget for a proper CA-signed certificate, for utterly zero increase in security) |
| 09:58 | < gnolaptop> | I blame Firefox 3. :P |
| 09:58 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, firefox doesn't help. But then, nor does IE. |
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| 10:25 | < gnolam> | The real culprit is of course the swarming throng of people who believe that SSL is only for authentication. |
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| 14:20 | < SmithKurosaki> | Watcher, where are you? |
| 14:20 | < SmithKurosaki> | (My school's CS department uses moodle too~) |
| 14:22 | <@TheWatcher> | About 53.43,-1.95 ¬¬ |
| 14:23 | <@TheWatcher> | (more seriously, in the UK. I work for the University of MAnchester) |
| 14:23 | < SmithKurosaki> | Woah |
| 14:23 | < SmithKurosaki> | Nice, I didn't realize you were giving me coordinates |
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| 15:42 | | * gnolam hugs university mirrors. |
| 15:47 | < gnolam> | ... not that that 11 MiB/s download speed mattered. I seem to have lost my USB stick. |
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| 15:52 | < gnolam> | No Koala for you! |
| 16:00 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-a62bd960.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #code |
| 16:11 | < gnolam> | ... but that's why the Neighbor was invented. |
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| 16:29 | < gnolam> | Well, Karmic's region selector is a pile of fail at least. |
| 16:30 | < gnolam> | So I suspect I won't be able to set a proper locale in this version either. :P |
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| 20:21 | < gnolam> | RARGH |
| 20:21 | | * gnolam stabs GNOME. |
| 20:21 | < gnolam> | What the FUCK are they smoking!? |
| 20:21 | < Namegduf> | What did they do now? |
| 20:21 | < gnolam> | Why on Earth does every new version of GNOME get /worse/? |
| 20:22 | < Namegduf> | I don't know, my guess is that people who have a clue about UI design now actively avoid them. |
| 20:22 | < gnolam> | Now, they've removed the ability to disable the annoying goddamned "Are you sure? Are you really sure? Are you really really sure? Nah, let's have you wait for a minute before we let you shutdown/restart" timer now. |
| 20:22 | < gnolam> | What. The. Hell. |
| 20:23 | < jerith> | gnolam: Have you used Eclipse recently? |
| 20:23 | < jerith> | I'm convinced that they hired a usability expert to work on this release. |
| 20:23 | < gnolam> | No. I have not. |
| 20:23 | < jerith> | They had him find all the bits that were accidentally usable and replaced them with something more suitable. |
| 20:24 | < gnolam> | Ah. |
| 20:24 | < jerith> | My working theory is that they want to make programming in Java look delightfully pleasant by comparison. |
| 20:25 | < Namegduf> | Genius. |
| 20:25 | < Namegduf> | It's all a plot by Sun Microsystems. |
| 20:25 | < jerith> | They replaced their plugin manager system thing with "add new software" and "update software". |
| 20:25 | < jerith> | Where the hell does one go to remove a plugin? |
| 20:25 | < jerith> | Especially when one has managed to accidentally install two different and conflicting versions of the same plugin? |
| 20:26 | < Namegduf> | See, this is why I like software clearly designed by programmers. |
| 20:26 | < Namegduf> | Because, contrary to normal belief, bad UI "make it idiot proof" people can do far, far worse |
| 20:27 | < jerith> | After nearly an hour, I found the little "show installed software" link disguised as explanatory text that took me to a thing where I could use another hidden UI element to remove the offending plugin. |
| 20:27 | < Namegduf> | It requires a special *skill* to do things that horribly. |
| 20:28 | < jerith> | "Make things as simple as possible and no simpler." |
| 20:28 | < jerith> | That last bit is of critical importance. |
| 20:29 | < Namegduf> | They're taking "as possible" too literally. |
| 20:29 | < Namegduf> | Or as a personal challenge. |
| 20:29 | < jerith> | I'd rather be barraged with a bewildering array of options, all set to sensible defaults, than "protected" from doing the thing I actually want to do. |
| 20:29 | < Namegduf> | Interfaces should be flexible, simple, and powerful. |
| 20:29 | < gnolam> | See my rant above about XChat requiring you to tick the box "Accept invalid SSL certificates" to connect to servers using self-signed certs. |
| 20:30 | < Namegduf> | Powerful doesn't essentially mean "able to do the most arcane crap" as "able to do everything quickly and easily" |
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| 20:30 | < Namegduf> | To be fair, by the standards for SSL, that IS invalid. |
| 20:30 | < Namegduf> | It's just a stupidity of SSL, IMO. |
| 20:31 | < gnolam> | No. No it's not /invalid/. |
| 20:31 | < Namegduf> | I think where a PKI is absent or unused, SSL should behave like SSH host keys. |
| 20:31 | < gnolam> | It's "unsigned by a CA". |
| 20:31 | < jerith> | Self-signed certs are valid, but untrustworthy if you don't have the fingerprint. |
| 20:31 | < Namegduf> | Isn't it "signed by an invaid CA (that is, itself)"? |
| 20:31 | < Namegduf> | Or is there a difference? |
| 20:31 | < jerith> | A CA is just a cert that is used to sign other certs. |
| 20:32 | < jerith> | Well, it's a key that is used to sign certs. |
| 20:32 | < jerith> | The matching cert is usually distributed to the clients to verify the authenticity of the things signed with it. |
| 20:33 | < Namegduf> | Right. |
| 20:33 | < Namegduf> | Doesn't self-signed mean it's signed by itself, which is not a valid recognised CA, rather than by "no one"? |
| 20:33 | < jerith> | Yes. |
| 20:34 | < jerith> | Except "valid recognised CA" is defined as "CA whose cert you have a local copy of for checking other certs". |
| 20:35 | < Namegduf> | Right. |
| 20:36 | < Namegduf> | My point is: Isn't an SSL cert which doesn't authenticate properly invalid? |
| 20:36 | < jerith> | Which is like saying "valid credit cards are ones whose last four digits I have written down". |
| 20:36 | < jerith> | No. |
| 20:36 | < jerith> | Because the purpose could be different. |
| 20:37 | < jerith> | A friend of mine, who just happens to be one of the country's leading IT security consultants, uses self-signed certs for all his stuff. |
| 20:38 | < jerith> | Since he's the only on who cares about it and he knows the fingerprint of the certs, it's actually more secure than using a CA whose credentials might be weaker or who might be compromised. |
| 20:38 | < Namegduf> | I know, and it's perfectly secure. |
| 20:38 | < Namegduf> | I just thought it was also invalid. |
| 20:38 | < Namegduf> | Because the SSL standards are not designed to be sensible |
| 20:38 | < Namegduf> | I could be wrong. |
| 20:39 | < jerith> | Certs that have expired might be invalid. |
| 20:39 | < jerith> | But I'd argue that they are not. |
| 20:39 | < Namegduf> | I'd argue they're "no longer valid" |
| 20:39 | < Namegduf> | And thus "invalid". |
| 20:39 | < Namegduf> | They were once valid, now they aren't. |
| 20:39 | < jerith> | Certs expire for two reasons: |
| 20:39 | < Namegduf> | That said, I think this is mostly semantics about the meaning of 'valid' |
| 20:40 | < jerith> | 1. It puts a finite window on vulnerability. |
| 20:40 | < Namegduf> | Right. |
| 20:40 | < jerith> | 2. It lets purveyors of SSL pixiedust make more money. |
| 20:40 | < Namegduf> | (Which is a Good Thing, IMO, because revocation in an automated and fast manner is still an unsolved problem) |
| 20:40 | < Namegduf> | Oh, yes, that too. |
| 20:41 | < Namegduf> | I was looking at that free cert provider, StartCom, but their website doesn't even *work*. |
| 20:41 | < Namegduf> | Their own SSL crap didn't work. |
| 20:41 | | * jerith likes cacert. |
| 20:41 | < Namegduf> | Hmm, nice looking. |
| 20:42 | < jerith> | They use a web of trust system. |
| 20:42 | < Namegduf> | Is it accepted into any major browsers? |
| 20:42 | < Namegduf> | And/or OSes? |
| 20:42 | < jerith> | I don't recall. |
| 20:43 | < jerith> | I think they might be in some. |
| 20:43 | < Namegduf> | Aha. |
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| 20:44 | < jerith> | If it's for personal use, installing their root certs yourself is fine. |
| 20:44 | < Namegduf> | Yeah; it isn't. |
| 20:44 | < Namegduf> | That said, what happens if it doesn't work? |
| 20:44 | < Namegduf> | Does the browser throw up and die, or ask for it to be added like a self-signed? |
| 20:45 | < jerith> | If it's for public use and it actually matters, you can probably afford the cost of a cert from somewhere else. |
| 20:45 | < jerith> | Self-signed is subset of "signed by a CA I don't recognise". |
| 20:45 | < Namegduf> | I thought so. |
| 20:46 | < Namegduf> | I was mildly confused by precisely HOW Chrome and FF both threw up and died trying to connect to StartCom's stuff |
| 20:46 | < Namegduf> | I assume it was for some reason other than the cert, in that case. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Oct 30 00:00:05 2009 |