| --- Log opened Tue Oct 20 00:00:40 2009 |
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| 00:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Any emacs users here? |
| 00:48 | <@McMartin> | Yes |
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| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | ... did you have a question about it, or was that just a usage survey? |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | I had a question, but #emacs answered it |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | Aha |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | I decided it's about time I learned to use it, and given that the campus wireless was too shaky for X today... |
| 01:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | I do have another question, though. |
| 01:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | How do I get it to indent when I start typing the line rather than when I finish it? |
| 01:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | (in cc-mode) |
| 01:08 | <@McMartin> | I usually just hit tab |
| 01:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | As it is, I hit enter, it returns me to col 0, I type a line and when I add the ; it moves it to the right place. |
| 01:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hitting tab also works. |
| 01:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, I would prefer that it return me to whatever column I'm indented to, rather than to 0 and then adjusting later. |
| 01:09 | <@McMartin> | My reflex is hitting tab so I don't actually know that one offhand |
| 01:38 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:38 | < gnolam> | ToxicFrog: It has that behavior for me. And the only setting I remember changing is the bloody annoying make-backup-files. |
| 01:45 | < SmithKurosaki> | What's this for? |
| 01:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | gnolam: solution is (global-set-key (kbd "RET") 'newline-and-indent) |
| 01:47 | < SmithKurosaki> | Hey, who knows how for loops are handled in assembler? |
| 01:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | SmithKurosaki: emacs, the editor. |
| 01:47 | < SmithKurosaki> | ahh |
| 01:47 | < SmithKurosaki> | Why are you using that? |
| 01:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Same way as any other loop: at the end of the loop, test to see if it's finished, and if not you jump back to the start |
| 01:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Basically, all loops in assembler are IF GOTO |
| 01:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | The difference between a for and, say, a while is that the for loop will also have a few instructions to increment the counter or what have you. |
| 01:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because it will work even on connections with latency in the thousands of milliseconds and packet loss pushing 90%. |
| 01:51 | < SmithKurosaki> | ty :) |
| 01:52 | < SmithKurosaki> | I really want some turkey and gravy now :( |
| 01:54 | < SmithKurosaki> | Next question: I have: |
| 01:54 | < SmithKurosaki> | i DS.B 1. Does this default to i=0? |
| 02:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think so but don't quote me on that; look it up in the assembler chapter of the Book. |
| 02:00 | < SmithKurosaki> | That book is scary though |
| 02:01 | < SmithKurosaki> | otoh, yay index |
| 02:09 | < SmithKurosaki> | Argh, for loops are confusing in assembler ;.; |
| 02:10 | < Reivthia> | TF: What's your usual linux editor? |
| 02:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reivthia: JEdit. |
| 02:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, that requires X. |
| 02:12 | <@Vornicus> | jEdit is also very portable. |
| 02:12 | < SmithKurosaki> | Are you having problems at home too? Or is this part of an assignment |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is fine as long as I can get, say, <20% packet loss and at least 10kb/s, but often I can't. |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | SmithKurosaki: neither. I believe emacs fluency is a useful skill to have, and I already have all of the files open in it. |
| 02:12 | < SmithKurosaki> | Oh, so you're using it because it's already open/ |
| 02:13 | < SmithKurosaki> | Argh, assembler ;.; |
| 02:13 | < SmithKurosaki> | I am not sure how to structure the for loop |
| 02:13 | < Reivthia> | SmithKurosaki: Learning emacs is an important skill for those who plan to be fluent in linuxese. |
| 02:14 | < Reivthia> | Learning the basic toolset of vi is arguably even more importaint, but I can understand not wanting to~ |
| 02:14 | < SmithKurosaki> | Hmm, I will have to learn this |
| 02:14 | < SmithKurosaki> | vi is painful |
| 02:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reivthia: I disagree; systems with vi tend to have emacs also, and vice versa |
| 02:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Holy shit, emacs has per directory session saving |
| 02:15 | < Reivthia> | TF: That is arguable - well, nowadays it's more unusual, but you can get machines that run vi, but are too resource constrained to want emacs on board |
| 02:16 | < Reivthia> | (Though frankly in that case I default to nano, but w/e) |
| 02:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | (I also) |
| 02:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | (either that or I shell out to a more powerful machine) |
| 02:16 | < Reivthia> | (nano is love.) |
| 02:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | (nano is unsuitable for any real editing, but is great as an always-there, always-works, I-need-to-fix-this-config-file tool) |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and unlike emacs or vi it has basically no learning curve) |
| 02:17 | < Reivthia> | (This is why I use it every time I SSH into a nightstar box, yes~) |
| 02:17 | <@McMartin> | (Self documenting software: an affront to open-source everywhere) |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | to be fair, emacs has fantastic builtin help, including an interactive tutorial |
| 02:17 | | * Reivthia realises McM is being a smartarse, but fails to understand what he meant by it? >_> |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, it also has a feature list longer than most operating systems~ |
| 02:18 | <@McMartin> | emacs is an operating system. |
| 02:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | What's the old saying? "emacs is a great operating system, all it needs now is a text editor"? |
| 02:18 | | * Reivthia is still waiting for someone to actually write a small extension for emacs that lets you boot it up without linux behind it~ |
| 02:18 | <@McMartin> | Reivthia: OSS is rather infamous for being poorly documented. |
| 02:18 | < Reivthia> | I got that part |
| 02:19 | <@McMartin> | Nano actually has its documentation on-screen at all times. |
| 02:19 | < Reivthia> | Oh! Right. |
| 02:19 | < Reivthia> | Because every single button it lets you do is, uh, right there? |
| 02:19 | <@McMartin> | You might have to hit the MORE CMDS button a few times to see them *all*, but yeah, basically. |
| 02:19 | < SmithKurosaki> | I do like that about nano, you can see all the important / basics commands. Yes, it takes away a little screen space, but I just have to look at the bottom when I forget how to save |
| 02:20 | < Reivthia> | It is a very rare day that I am working on a file where the last two lines of text are crucial to readability. |
| 02:20 | < Reivthia> | If they are, you need to reconfig your interface to use a smaller font, or stop using the seven inch black and green CRT you found in your dads basement~ |
| 02:20 | <@McMartin> | And yeah, emacs is decent about self-documentation - to the point where once you get into the naming headspace you can often use tab completion along with meta-x to guess commands. |
| 02:21 | <@McMartin> | (And before that, there's help -> apropos-command) |
| 02:30 | < SmithKurosaki> | Hmm |
| 02:30 | < SmithKurosaki> | char* = ? (assembler) |
| 02:30 | <@Vornicus> | Literal string, or are we throwing stuff around? |
| 02:31 | < SmithKurosaki> | Unknown |
| 02:31 | <@Vornicus> | It's just a pointer then, usually, and you throw it around as such. |
| 02:31 | | * SmithKurosaki forgets to read burble at top... |
| 02:31 | < SmithKurosaki> | It's a string |
| 02:32 | <@Vornicus> | Usually assembly languages give you the ability to write literal strings as data. |
| 02:33 | < SmithKurosaki> | I will type the like 5 lines of code I have to change into assembler! |
| 02:34 | < SmithKurosaki> | char* s; / int count=0; / while (*s !=0){ s++; counter++; } |
| 02:34 | < SmithKurosaki> | So I have to count the number of characters in the string (The code is there to help |
| 02:37 | <@Vornicus> | Aha. |
| 02:38 | < SmithKurosaki> | I am actually not sure if the C code given is enough to do what I need it to |
| 02:39 | < SmithKurosaki> | How do I DS a string though? |
| 02:39 | <@Vornicus> | s and count should both be registers; you should be able to load at the address in and add 1 to the register containing s; you need to load a byte at a time. |
| 02:39 | < SmithKurosaki> | I am having issues understanding the second half of that |
| 02:40 | < SmithKurosaki> | Or well, the stuff about the addy |
| 02:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | In this case, don't think of it as a string; think of it as a memory address, because that's how you're using it |
| 02:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, treat it like any other pointer |
| 02:41 | < SmithKurosaki> | Ok... |
| 02:41 | < SmithKurosaki> | (Pointers are new to me in assembler) |
| 02:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | (the lectures have covered them by now, surely?) |
| 02:42 | < SmithKurosaki> | Hmm |
| 02:42 | < SmithKurosaki> | Not in this context |
| 02:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...in what context, then? |
| 02:44 | < SmithKurosaki> | Pointing to mem(?) addys, but not in the context of C pointers |
| 02:44 | < SmithKurosaki> | (Well, not unlimited chars |
| 02:46 | < SmithKurosaki> | Awesome, I think I missed that lec / wasn't writing shit down |
| 02:47 | < SmithKurosaki> | Or it hasn't been talked about yet/ |
| 02:48 | < SmithKurosaki> | Ok, found something but groking is not going so well |
| 02:51 | < SmithKurosaki> | I've got nothing |
| 02:51 | < SmithKurosaki> | There are a bunch of different things that have something to point to, this has nothing |
| 02:53 | < SmithKurosaki> | Like, I have a feeling I need more than what I have to do thus |
| 02:53 | <@McMartin> | C pointers are just memory addresses. |
| 02:53 | <@McMartin> | If you cast them to an integral type they are exactly that |
| 02:54 | <@McMartin> | The only fun bit with strings is that it's the beginning of the string |
| 02:54 | <@McMartin> | The end of the string is "the first point past that that turns out to contain a 0" |
| 02:54 | <@McMartin> | So, the string ABC is a pointer to a chunk of memory whose next four bytes are 65, 66, 67, 0 |
| 02:54 | < SmithKurosaki> | So, going s DS.B A0 |
| 02:54 | < SmithKurosaki> | ? |
| 02:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | DS enough space for the pointer. |
| 02:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Don't worry about having it point to something; the assumption is that this is part of some larger program that will make sure c points to a valid string before this loop actually goes off. |
| 02:56 | < SmithKurosaki> | .L? I have no idea how big the contents will be, and I was thinking along the char = 8bit things |
| 02:56 | < SmithKurosaki> | *thing |
| 02:57 | <@McMartin> | You're running on an N-bit processor; that N is how many bytes wide your pointer is, generally |
| 02:57 | < SmithKurosaki> | ok |
| 02:57 | < SmithKurosaki> | It's the M68k |
| 02:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | The Book will tell you for sure, but IIRC you have 16-bit pointers |
| 02:58 | < SmithKurosaki> | that sounds rigt |
| 02:58 | < SmithKurosaki> | ds.w ao? |
| 02:59 | < gnolam> | The 68k uses 32 bit addresses (even if it only has a 24 (?) bit external address bus). |
| 03:04 | < gnolam> | As for your DS... it's not part of the actual instruction set. Check your assembler's manual. |
| 03:05 | < SmithKurosaki> | gnar |
| 03:06 | < SmithKurosaki> | But I should be able to go: |
| 03:07 | < SmithKurosaki> | var ds.b 10 |
| 03:07 | < SmithKurosaki> | Movea.l var, a0 |
| 03:07 | | * gnolam did his 68k programming using a line-by-line assembler. |
| 03:08 | < SmithKurosaki> | Heh |
| 03:08 | < gnolam> | None of that fancy text-based source you youngsters are allowed to use. |
| 03:08 | < SmithKurosaki> | Ahh, fuuuun |
| 03:08 | < gnolam> | And it was uphill, the way to the computer lab. Both ways! |
| 03:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | gnolam: ds/dc are "define storage" and "define constant" respectively, in this assembler. |
| 03:09 | | * SmithKurosaki hands gnolam his cane |
| 03:09 | < SmithKurosaki> | My dad was programming on tape drives |
| 03:09 | < SmithKurosaki> | (In something before C, but... I still think it's neat) |
| 03:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, if we're getting into that |
| 03:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mine was programming in switches on the side of the mainframe :P |
| 03:10 | < SmithKurosaki> | Nice |
| 03:10 | < SmithKurosaki> | Anyways, will ds.l a0 work? |
| 03:10 | < gnolam> | Or, well, we did get to use a source file-based assembler once in that course... to write a FORTH compiler which we /then/ could use to solve the actual task. ^-^ |
| 03:10 | < SmithKurosaki> | Or do I need to it the other way |
| 03:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | (in his wild university days, he managed to switch in a bootloader that would display "FUCK" on every attached terminal) |
| 03:10 | < gnolam> | (It's the only lab I've had with a backstory, BTW) |
| 03:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | (it only had enough space for four characters, see...) |
| 03:11 | < SmithKurosaki> | Keep in mind that TF's dad is like 50, mine is 35 |
| 03:11 | < SmithKurosaki> | *37 |
| 03:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Where does the 'a0' come from? |
| 03:11 | < SmithKurosaki> | address... |
| 03:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Clarify. |
| 03:12 | < SmithKurosaki> | umm... |
| 03:12 | < SmithKurosaki> | I don't know what I am doing, and have forgotten how I got to that conclusion |
| 03:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | ;.; |
| 03:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | DS doesn't take a value, remember; instead you tell it how much space to allocate. |
| 03:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | So allocate enough space for a pointer (16 or 32 bits, check the book) and use that. |
| 03:17 | < SmithKurosaki> | Ahh |
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| 03:36 | < SmithKurosaki> | Hmm |
| 03:37 | < SmithKurosaki> | How I do put chars into assembler? #59? '59'? |
| 03:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't remember at all |
| 03:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | The manual probably says, or the course/lab notes may have an example |
| 03:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | That said, chars are just stubby ints, so #xx will work fine as long as you don't mind the code being unreadable |
| 03:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | (you should aim higher than that, though!) |
| 03:39 | < SmithKurosaki> | Maybe if it wasn't due tomorrow morning |
| 03:41 | < SmithKurosaki> | My programs keep complaining about lack of end |
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| 04:55 | | * Vornicus randomly ponders probabilities for various 5-card poker hands, given n > 5 cards available to build the hand from. |
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| 05:48 | | * Vornicus also randomly shoots this math programming paper for using 2-letter variable names such as "h1", "h2", "h12", "h3"... |
| 06:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | luapilot now supports the transmission of nil, booleans, numbers, strings, functions, and tables between nodes. |
| 06:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | All that's left is support for __send and __recv and I can declare pilot.read and pilot.write complete. |
| 06:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | And at that point the library is nearly complete, lacking only bundle support and better documentation. |
| 06:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | My estimates to the prof as to how long this would take were clearly very pessimistic~ |
| 06:36 | | * Reivthia ponders how hard it is to get Python or equivalent to have a geometry-based UI. |
| 06:36 | < Reivthia> | In essense, a very simplistic vector drawing setup. |
| 06:39 | <@Vornicus> | Pyglet is OpenGL; I'd look into that first. |
| 06:41 | < Reivthia> | Okay. |
| 06:42 | < Reivthia> | Basically I want to be able to create boxes and stick them onto other boxes. |
| 06:42 | <@Derakon> | With the stuck-on boxes inheriting translation, rotation, etc? |
| 06:42 | < Reivthia> | And then stick them inside another box, or alongside a box, or whatever, and have them all try to maintain a certain area sans-otherboxes. |
| 06:43 | < Reivthia> | Only if they're all declared to be grouped. I admit this aspect will be hard to figure out how to do cleanly. |
| 06:44 | <@Derakon> | I'm not certain what you mean by that latter bit. |
| 06:44 | <@Derakon> | If you're trying to solve some kind of packing problem, that's liable to be Hard. |
| 06:44 | < Reivthia> | Not a packing problem, but, uh |
| 06:44 | < Reivthia> | I have Guns, Dudes, and Engine squares. I want them in a row. I then want to group the lot of them, so when I drag 'em round, all three boxes move. |
| 06:45 | < Reivthia> | Before this point, if I click on Guns and drag it, it moves independantly of the others, ableit still snapping to place. (That probably makes no sense.) |
| 06:45 | <@Vornicus> | You want a simple drawing program. |
| 06:45 | < Reivthia> | Yes. |
| 06:46 | <@Derakon> | It's entirely possible that this has already been done for you in Python. |
| 06:46 | < Reivthia> | Nice and simple and yet with its own clever little rules so it does what I need it to, like figuring out how much Dude box is needed based on the values shoved into the /other/ boxes, and scaling accordingly. Etc. |
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| 06:48 | | * Kazriko imports antigravity. |
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| 06:59 | < Reivthia> | Mostly this depends on how painful it is to get an actual UI and actual objects dragging around gridstuff. |
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| 13:15 | < Thant> | afternoooon all |
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| 13:57 | < SmithKurosaki> | MOrning |
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| 15:23 | | * TheWatcher eyes the Thief 2 scripting api, eyebrows |
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| 15:37 | < Thant> | yo |
| 15:42 | | * gnolam attaches an embossing tape label to Thant. |
| 15:43 | < Thant> | wat |
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| 15:44 | < Thant> | hot damn! |
| 15:45 | < SmithKurosaki> | you on fre |
| 15:45 | < Thant> | huh? |
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| 17:42 | < AbuDhabi> | Does anyone know how to change the location of opera6.ini? |
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| 18:56 | | ServerMode/#Code [+oqo Reiver Reiver AnnoDomini] by *.Nightstar.Net |
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| 20:15 | < SmithKurosaki> | sWEET, HUFFMAN CODES! |
| 20:15 | < SmithKurosaki> | Sorry for caps |
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| 20:47 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 20:49 | < SmithKurosaki> | That was amusing |
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| 21:39 | < gnolam> | There. |
| 21:39 | | * gnolam finally plays through Eversion. |
| 21:40 | <@McMartin> | <3 |
| 21:40 | < AbuDhabi> | Indeed. |
| 21:42 | < gnolam> | There's some wicked subversion of clichés there. :) |
| 21:43 | < AbuDhabi> | It has a long TV Tropes page. |
| 21:49 | | Attilla [The.Attilla@FBC920.687A28.7638A6.BF0005] has joined #Code |
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| 21:51 | < gnolam> | Pfft. |
| 22:06 | | OrthodocErik [Erik_Mesoy@Nightstar-be028908.bb.online.no] has joined #Code |
| 22:13 | < OrthodocErik> | Does the last bit of the topic translate as "I will do science to it"? My German has been standing out in the rain. |
| 22:13 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 22:14 | <@McMartin> | "For all x, I will do science to x" |
| 22:15 | <@McMartin> | "Ich werde ihm Wissenschaft tun" is "I will do science to it, as I understand it |
| 23:09 | | Vornotron is now known as Vornicus |
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| 23:39 | | Alek is now known as Nathia |
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| --- Log closed Wed Oct 21 00:00:54 2009 |