| --- Log opened Sat Oct 17 00:00:05 2009 |
| 00:57 | <@McMartin> | Oh Apple. |
| 00:57 | < KazWork> | Vista 64 is pretty flaky too. |
| 00:58 | <@McMartin> | I have to wonder why it took until 10.5 to actually implement PMPrintSettingsCopyAsDictionary or any function with similar effects. |
| 00:59 | <@McMartin> | (In other news, OS APIs actually become pretty awesome when you have dicts as a pervasive core OS type) |
| 01:35 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:36 | <@Derakon> | McM: the main reason to stick with XP64 would be because I'd probably have to make changes to get the program to work with the more restrictive permissions model under 7. |
| 01:37 | | * McMartin nods |
| 01:38 | <@Derakon> | Maybe we could go triple-boot or something... |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | There's seriously no reason to run Vista ever |
| 01:38 | <@Derakon> | XP64/7/Ubuntu |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | Oh |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | Heh |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | If someone has a 7 machine that you can test on, that's probably a better move before a sudden redeployment |
| 01:38 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | That said, does your microscope manager really mess around much in kernel space? |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | Userland stuff should be basically identical all around |
| 01:38 | <@Derakon> | It had better not. |
| 01:39 | <@Derakon> | Mostly it's a matter of "you can't install there" and "you can't write there", I think. |
| 01:39 | <@McMartin> | Aha |
| 01:39 | <@Derakon> | For certain values of "install" that mean "I put some directories here and then pointed batch files at them." |
| 01:39 | | * McMartin nods |
| 01:39 | <@Derakon> | (For certain values of "I" that mean "That guy who fled to Germany before I started working here") |
| 01:39 | <@McMartin> | That can be problematic if "here" is inside system locations like Program Files and you're running as non-admin |
| 01:40 | | * McMartin generally crusades for people to use %APPDATA% like good Win32 API users, but it is somethin of a lost cause |
| 01:40 | <@Derakon> | Currently the program itself is in D:\, and dependencies are at least partially in C:\ |
| 01:40 | <@McMartin> | This was one of the few crusades that Vista helped with |
| 01:40 | <@McMartin> | Since it removed all the many spaces from said pathname |
| 01:40 | <@Derakon> | Yay! |
| 01:41 | <@McMartin> | Instead of C:\Documents and Settings\$USER\Application Data and C:\Documents and Settings\$USER\Local Settings\Application Data, it is (IIRC) C:\Users\$USER\AppData\(Roaming/Local). |
| 01:41 | <@McMartin> | I might have the order of those last two mixed up. |
| 01:42 | <@McMartin> | In other news, I'm getting significantly handier with Objective-C. |
| 01:51 | | * orthia waves to folks. |
| 01:52 | < orthia> | So, question: What languages are folks proficient in? |
| 01:52 | | * orthia is curious what sort of range you lot each have. |
| 01:53 | | * Derakon pulls up his resumé, reads off the list. |
| 01:53 | <@Derakon> | Python, Perl, Java, PHP, Javascript, C/C++, Mason, SQL, Lua, SML, Prolog. |
| 01:53 | <@Derakon> | Though if you asked me to write anything in Lua, SML, or Prolog I'd have to hit the references. |
| 01:53 | <@Derakon> | (Mason is Perl+HTML, basically) |
| 01:54 | <@McMartin> | C, C++ (including its standard libraries and nearly-standard extensions), Java, Python for serious development work |
| 01:54 | <@McMartin> | Java and Obj-C both require me to have references handy continuously, but that's true for C as well if I'm doing actual OS interfacing (which is often what I'm doing). |
| 01:55 | <@McMartin> | On the Not Actually Usable For Anything Serious bin I have Haskell, SML, OCaml, a couple of LISP dialects, and the assemblers for some dead chips. |
| 01:55 | <@McMartin> | Lua and Perl are on my "I've used it before" list but I don't use them as go-to languages |
| 01:56 | <@McMartin> | Oh, right. Also Inform 6 and 7, for "domain specific languages that have come up repeatedly in #code"~ |
| 01:56 | | * McMartin can also write shell scripts for several OSes and knows some antiquated BASIC dialects that he never uses. |
| 01:58 | <@McMartin> | These days, I am paid to write C++, Obj-C, Python, and NSIS. |
| 01:59 | <@McMartin> | The side projects I am most famous for are in C and Inform. |
| 02:00 | <@Derakon> | Bonus Project: rewrite UQM in Pascal~ |
| 02:01 | <@McMartin> | I have a major gap in my knowledge with respect to web development languages; JavaScript I have only the vaguest grasp of, and it's the useless cool part, and the closest I've come to anything like mason is the format method on Python Strings, and low-level Java servlet hacking to test Tomcat installs. |
| 02:01 | <@Derakon> | What's the useless cool part of Javascript? |
| 02:01 | <@McMartin> | The object model, mainly. |
| 02:01 | <@McMartin> | It uses prototype-based inheritance, and is the only place in the "wild" that does. |
| 02:02 | <@McMartin> | Much as Java is the only language in the wild that does anything with proof-carrying-code. |
| 02:02 | <@McMartin> | (Which is to say, I'm pretty much entirely innocent of DOM manipulation in JS, which is really what it's actually good for) |
| 02:03 | <@Derakon> | Don't forget partial page refreshes. |
| 02:03 | <@Derakon> | And other dynamic stuff. |
| 02:20 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ajax saved javascript? |
| 02:20 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Although I experimented with such long before real ajax came around |
| 02:21 | | * Rhamphoryncus nostalgias over his attempt at a web version of battletech |
| 02:33 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 02:38 | | * Vornicus is proficient in Python, PostScript, Bash (though some stuff eludes him), C, SQL, and probably others that he hasn't used lately. |
| 02:39 | | * orthia nods. |
| 02:48 | | * Rhamphoryncus is only proficient in C and Python, alas |
| 02:48 | < Rhamphoryncus> | javascript was years ago |
| 02:48 | < Rhamphoryncus> | PHP and SQL too, at the time |
| 03:21 | | Alek is now known as Nathia |
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| 05:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | orthia: a bit delayed, but: Lua, C, bash are my main three; past that I have Erlang, Haskell, C++, awk, Turing, Java, Scheme, and Python. |
| 05:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | There's a number of others (perl, pascal, logo, and qbasic come to mind; there are likely others) that I'm rusty enough on that I might need to re-learn parts of them rather than just hitting the references. |
| 05:44 | <@Vornicus> | YOu forgot one, TF |
| 05:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Right, Inform 7 |
| 05:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...and Javascript |
| 05:44 | <@Vornicus> | Mm, not the one I was thinking of. PostScript? |
| 05:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...and postscript! |
| 05:45 | < Nathia> | lol |
| 05:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although postscript I mostly use as a desk calculator |
| 05:45 | | Nathia is now known as Alek |
| 05:45 | <@Vornicus> | My desk calculator is Python. |
| 05:46 | <@Vornicus> | And then when I need a graphing calculator I pipe the results through gs. |
| 05:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | I like postscript for its disambiguity, its lack of whitespace sensitivity, and the lack of need to use explicit temporaries. |
| 05:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | (as a calculator, I mean, not in general; my days of writing complete programs in postscript are pretty much past) |
| 05:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | (also, I bind + - * / ^ to add sub mul div pow) |
| 05:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | s/\//\\/ |
| 05:49 | < Alek> | O_o |
| 05:49 | <@Vornicus> | That's one of the greatest s patterns ever. |
| 05:49 | < Alek> | wut |
| 05:49 | < Alek> | oh I think I get it |
| 05:49 | < Alek> | changes / to \ right? |
| 05:50 | <@Vornicus> | Precisely. |
| 05:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Has to be \, because / is reserved. |
| 05:51 | < Alek> | of course |
| 05:51 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I use qalculate. Not very programmable, but otherwise beats the pants off python |
| 05:52 | <@Vornicus> | (in PostScript, a symbol looks like /Symbol |
| 05:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh yeah, for handling really big numbers I use bc |
| 05:57 | < Rhamphoryncus> | big as in..? |
| 05:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | More than 2^53 or so |
| 05:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or, more generally, more than 15-16 decimal digits |
| 05:59 | <@Vornicus> | I use Python for that. |
| 06:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | floats though.. |
| 06:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...python numbers are arbitrary-sigfigs? |
| 06:00 | <@McMartin> | ... yes? |
| 06:00 | <@McMartin> | It uses bignums |
| 06:00 | <@Vornicus> | Python integers are arbitrarily large. |
| 06:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | I thought that was a module |
| 06:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Huh. Cool. |
| 06:00 | <@Vornicus> | Python non-integers are doubles, but there's a "decimal" module for large arithmetic. |
| 06:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh, historically bc was a compiler for the dc language. I guess cc was taken ;) |
| 06:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | the cool think about qalculate is it can use symbolic math. I can type this in, taken from xkcd: |
| 06:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | e??(pi?sqrt(-1)) = -1 = (e^(pi ? sqrt(-1))) = (-1) |
| 06:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | = 1 |
| 06:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | If it was an inexact result it'd use ? |
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| 08:00 | < Alek> | yay approximate symbol |
| 08:00 | < Alek> | I also like what's the one with ~ over = |
| 08:00 | < Alek> | approximately equal |
| 08:10 | <@Derakon> | Approximate equality is two squiggly lines. |
| 08:10 | <@Derakon> | Squilly line over = is congruence. |
| 08:10 | <@Derakon> | Er, squiggly. |
| 08:11 | < Alek> | hm. |
| 08:12 | < Alek> | it was used for approximately equal in my classes. |
| 08:12 | | * Alek shrugs. |
| 08:12 | < Alek> | what's congruence again? |
| 08:14 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 08:15 | < Rhamphoryncus> | wikipedia shows congruence relations with ? |
| 08:17 | < Rhamphoryncus> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols |
| 08:17 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ? is a congruence relation and ? is congruence |
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| 13:37 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Alek: "congruence" refers to an equivalence relation, really. |
| 13:38 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Alek: e.g. in Euclidean geometry, mathematicians call two triangles A and B congruent to one another if you can go from A to B and back using only translation, rotation and reflection. |
| 13:40 | <@MyCatVerbs> | In arithmetic modulo n, two numbers x and y are called congruent if the remainder from dividing x by n is equal to the remainder from dividing y by n. |
| 13:44 | <@MyCatVerbs> | "Congruence" generally means an equivalence (i.e. a relationship that works similarly to how equality works) that works nicely with some particular area of mathematics. |
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| 20:00 | <@AnnoDomini> | Does anyone know how to downgrade to Opera 9 from 10? |
| 20:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Uninstall Opera 10 |
| 20:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Install Opera 9 |
| 20:05 | | * AnnoDomini scratches his noggin. |
| 20:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | While that IS a solution, doing exactly what I said I wanted, I'm not sure it will preserve the massive amount of settings, bookmarks and whatever I have somewhere that miraculously managed to get ported from 9 to 10 after some .ini editing on my part. I'm not sure anymore which files do what. |
| 20:07 | <@AnnoDomini> | Wait, a moment. When I check for updates, there's "you are using the newest version" but there's a newer version available on the site. |
| 20:08 | <@AnnoDomini> | I think it's a beta, but it could actually tell me "oh, hay, there's a beta release". |
| 20:17 | | * AnnoDomini thinks he'll install the older version somewhere else. |
| 20:17 | <@AnnoDomini> | The browser's great and all, but for some bloody reason I can't stay logged in at the site I visit the most. |
| 20:20 | <@AnnoDomini> | Wait, WTF? Now I can. |
| 20:20 | <@AnnoDomini> | Ah. This is the old version... but it looks like the new. |
| 20:21 | <@AnnoDomini> | How the hell am I achieving a 12-item speed dial on a 9.x? |
| 20:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | it's always been configurable; it just defaulted to 3x3 on 9.x. |
| 20:25 | <@AnnoDomini> | I remember it wasn't easily configurable - at least not from the clicky interface. |
| 20:26 | | * AnnoDomini hopes he's not doing something wrong by having three versions of Opera use the very same .ini files. |
| 20:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | It wasn't configurable from the gui in 9.x, IIRC |
| 20:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | But the options were in the ini |
| 20:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Opera's config file handling is pretty robust, as long as you aren't running multiple versions at the same time you should be fine |
| 20:28 | <@AnnoDomini> | Okay, then. |
| 20:44 | < SmithKurosaki> | Hehe |
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| --- Log closed Sun Oct 18 00:00:20 2009 |