| --- Log opened Wed Sep 23 00:00:14 2009 |
| 00:17 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
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| 03:01 | < gnolam> | And today's Term That Could Have Been Star Trek Technobabble is: phase space. |
| 03:05 | <@Derakon> | Don't they have an episode that basically amounts to Geordi and another crewmember getting slightly out of phase with reality? |
| 03:06 | < gnolam> | I'm pretty sure there are several. |
| 03:06 | < gnolam> | It's a scifi trope. :P |
| 03:07 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | There's the one where Picard and others manage to stay at normal speed while the enterprise and others stand still. |
| 03:07 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | And then there is, you know. The Langoliers. |
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| 04:43 | <@Kazriko> | I actually think Phase Space was technobabbled in star trek once. |
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| 10:49 | < gnolam> | I have a dirty mind. |
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| 10:59 | < gnolam> | I'm preparing for a rigid body physics lab. A chapter in the course material is titled "Nonpenetration Constraints". My first thought: "Ah, chastity belts?" |
| 11:17 | <@TheWatcher> | ... pft |
| 11:28 | < Alek> | now that's a rigid body. >_> |
| 12:01 | < MyCatVerbs> | That's ridiculous. |
| 12:02 | < MyCatVerbs> | A rigid body physics simulation needs to have at least semi-reasonable behavoir when penetration occurs. Well, assuming it's for a videogame rather than a proper simulation. |
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| 19:04 | < Finale> | http://mibbit.com/pb/rH24sy |
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| 20:37 | < gnolam> | https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Sprints/Windows_Theme_Revamp/Direction_and_Feed back <- and Mozilla is still hard at work making Firefox worse. |
| 20:37 | < JBeshir> | I love not having to care about Mozilla anymore, now I've switched to Chrome as my main browser, even on Linux. |
| 20:38 | | * Finale twitches. |
| 20:38 | < Finale> | are those loading bars.... ON THE TABS??? |
| 20:38 | < JBeshir> | That'll just look flickery unless they're planning on slowing down loading a lot. |
| 20:39 | < JBeshir> | Come on, Mozilla. You're a big organisation. |
| 20:39 | < JBeshir> | You have to have one guy who can design a UI. |
| 20:39 | | Orthia [Orthianz@Nightstar-715cbcbb.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 20:39 | < JBeshir> | "Going forward we are going to look into the best ways to carry these ideas over to Mac and Linux as well." |
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| 20:40 | < JBeshir> | Relatedly, I see Chrome's uptake increasing rapidly about the same time. |
| 20:40 | <@jerith> | I like having progress bars on my tabs, but I prefer the way Tab Mix Plus does it. |
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| 20:43 | | mode/#code [+o MyCatVerbs] by Reiver |
| 20:43 | | * TheWatcher misses the days where he could bring up a list of every connection the browser was making trivially from within the browser, and be able to selectively kill them |
| 20:44 | | * jerith misses the days where he could get the browser to ask for confirmation when he accidentally hits cmd-Q without having to disable session-saving. |
| 20:45 | <@TheWatcher> | cmd-Q being quit, I take it? |
| 20:45 | | AbuDhabi [farkoff@Nightstar-6e922851.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 20:46 | <@jerith> | The universal MacOS quit command. |
| 20:46 | <@jerith> | Conveniently situated right next to cmd-W, which is "close tab". |
| 20:46 | <@TheWatcher> | 'kay, makes sense (although, I wonder if it is the same with different languages...) |
| 20:47 | <@jerith> | http://www.mydigitallife.info/2008/06/19/firefox-3-doesnt-prompt-or-warn-to-conf irm-when-closing-multiple-tabs-as-warning-not-working/ |
| 20:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, well, you know about me any my issues with browser shortcuts >.> |
| 20:48 | <@jerith> | I don't, actually. |
| 20:48 | <@jerith> | Well, I know /you/ about as well as I know most of the regulars here. |
| 20:49 | <@jerith> | But not your browser shortcut issues. |
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| 20:52 | <@TheWatcher> | The whole issue with accidentally using emacisms in textareas in seamonkey, and closing the tab containing things I'd been editing for 10/15 minutes at a time |
| 20:52 | <@jerith> | Oh, right. |
| 20:52 | <@jerith> | I forgot about those. |
| 20:52 | < Finale> | O_o |
| 20:53 | <@TheWatcher> | (hence my recent 'hacking mediawiki to require confirmation on navigating off edit windows' thing) |
| 20:53 | <@jerith> | At least on the mac there's a difference between C-w and cmd-w. |
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| 21:08 | <@McMartin> | This also means that when I start trying to close windows in Windows after Maccing it up for awhile I keep hitting Alt-W and opening the "Window" menu. |
| 21:09 | | * AnnoDomini needs to find out who has the patent for Copy/Paste, so he can erect a shrine in that person's honour. |
| 21:10 | <@McMartin> | It's been around for over 17 years, so nobody |
| 21:11 | < Finale> | I also like undo. |
| 21:11 | <@AnnoDomini> | Who came up with it in the first place will do. |
| 21:18 | | Derakon[work] [Derakon@Nightstar-d44d635e.ucsf.edu] has joined #code |
| 21:19 | < Derakon[work]> | After much testing, I've determined that the reason why setting MALLOC_CHECK_ does nothing is because it appears to be a Linux-specific setting, and I'm on Windows. ?.? |
| 21:21 | < Finale> | ahaha |
| 21:21 | < Derakon[work]> | Anyone here used Valgrind before? |
| 21:21 | < Derakon[work]> | ...oh, wait, Valgrind is Linux-only too. |
| 21:21 | < Derakon[work]> | Fuck. |
| 21:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | It is? |
| 21:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Damn. |
| 21:22 | <@TheWatcher> | THere's a version of valgrind for OSX |
| 21:22 | < Derakon[work]> | But again, the microscope software is running on a Windows box. |
| 21:22 | <@TheWatcher> | But yeah, on win... |
| 21:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, and my advice on windows is likely to be useless, as it'd boil down to 'recompile with cygwin/mingw/msys and use gdb/ddd' :/ |
| 21:31 | <@McMartin> | WinDbg is freely available and is insanely powerful |
| 21:32 | <@McMartin> | (It's MS's internal kernel debugger, with some appspace stuff too) |
| 21:32 | <@McMartin> | It's also pretty hard to use, but once you get it running it's about 100x better than Visual Studio's. |
| 21:32 | < Derakon[work]> | MALLOC_CHECK_ sounds like it'd be very helpful; mostly I want to be told "Hey dumbass, you're setting yourself up for memory corruption at this point". |
| 21:32 | < Derakon[work]> | Visual Studio currently just dumps me into the middle of some assembly code. |
| 21:32 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 21:33 | <@McMartin> | WinDbg can do that, but it will also download the symbol tables for your kernel. |
| 21:33 | <@McMartin> | So you can get a reasonably precise stack trace |
| 21:33 | <@McMartin> | Of course, if your problem is that you've smashed your stack that isn't a lot of help |
| 21:33 | <@McMartin> | You'll just get a "[frame pointer corrupt; all bets are off]" in the middle of your stack trace and then maybe it won't have been? |
| 21:33 | < Derakon[work]> | And I'm pretty certain that that's what is happening, given the characterstics of this bug. |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | If you can build the C parts in VS, you should be able to set StackGuard and HeapGuard, which puts canaries everywhere. |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | Then running a debug/checked build should freak out near the point of corruption |
| 21:34 | < Derakon[work]> | The actual crash is due to an access violation; the crash occurs irregularly and if I comment out the code where it does occur, then it occurs later in the same function. |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | ... yeah, that sounds like you need canaries. |
| 21:34 | < Derakon[work]> | The problem there is the "build the C parts in VS" bit. I do not know how to build this project. |
| 21:35 | <@McMartin> | Oh. |
| 21:35 | | * McMartin also doesn't know how to turn those technologies on~ |
| 21:35 | < Derakon[work]> | I have a Python-only version that, it is claimed, exhibits the same buggy behavior. I need to try that one out to see. |
| 21:35 | <@TheWatcher> | (although, by the sounds of it, the guy who compiled the project didn't know either...) |
| 21:36 | < Derakon[work]> | (Almost certainly not; this was a learning project for him. To my knowledge he had never done any serious programming before starting it) |
| 21:36 | <@McMartin> | (It appears to be Project -> Properties -> Configuration Properties -> C/C++ -> Code Generation -> Buffer Security Check, though, and that doesn't have heap canaries |
| 21:37 | <@TheWatcher> | (that sort of situation vaguely scares me. I mean, it's one thing to have a neophyte write a web app, but who goes "We need someone to write the control software for out multimillion dollar microscope. I know, we'll get the guy who knows nothing about coding to do it!") |
| 21:38 | <@TheWatcher> | (I understand buget constraints and stuff in unis too damned well, but seriously...) |
| 21:38 | <@TheWatcher> | +d |
| 21:38 | < Derakon[work]> | No, the multimillion-dollar version was made by professionals who're licensing the design but writing their own control software. |
| 21:38 | < Finale> | ... |
| 21:39 | < Finale> | .....Father, explaining electrical cables to teenage son: Yeah, she's got a transvestite in her wall. But you can convert the tranny back to a female, using the thing in the wall. |
| 21:40 | | * McMartin tsks. "Transsexual". |
| 21:40 | <@McMartin> | The adapter is a "gender bender" |
| 21:41 | <@McMartin> | "homosexual adapter" is sadly too vague to use because it's not clear whether the gender marker is to attach two cables of that gender or if the adapter is itself that gender. |
| 21:43 | | * Finale laughs so hard he cries. |
| 21:44 | <@McMartin> | (For full effect one must practice this speech until one can deadpan it in a fully professional tone of voice.) |
| 21:44 | < Finale> | (you pull it off well) |
| 21:45 | <@McMartin> | (it's easier when you can't see my face) |
| 21:46 | < Finale> | (true dat) |
| 21:46 | <@jerith> | My dad's a master of that. |
| 21:48 | < Finale> | ahahahaa http://www.overheardeverywhere.com/archives/006970.html |
| 22:03 | < Finale> | hey, this is for y'all http://www.overheardintheoffice.com/archives/002470.html |
| 22:18 | <@McMartin> | Progress! |
| 22:19 | | * Derakon[work] sics the Rightwingnuts on McM. |
| 22:19 | <@McMartin> | This morning, the workflow I was debugging would fail with a baffling error message. |
| 22:19 | <@McMartin> | Now, it crashes three applications. |
| 22:19 | <@McMartin> | I have a place to attach a debugger! |
| 22:19 | <@McMartin> | Hooray! |
| 22:19 | < Derakon[work]> | Woot! |
| 22:19 | <@McMartin> | In fact, it's crashing applications we didn't even write |
| 22:20 | <@McMartin> | (Which communicate with us and are apparently unstable when their peer crashes~) |
| 22:20 | < Finale> | ahaha |
| 22:25 | < Rhamphoryncus> | "What do you mean, "error check the result of read()?"" |
| 22:25 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Derakon[work]: sorry about not being more clear about MALLOC_CHECK_ x_x |
| 22:26 | < Derakon[work]> | No worries, Rhamphoryncus. |
| 22:33 | <@McMartin> | Rhamphoryncus: That or "It's on localhost, we can just wait forever and not worry about timeouts" |
| 22:33 | <@McMartin> | I mean, it's not like the crashed process is gone or anything; it might reply! |
| 22:33 | <@McMartin> | (Except not because it's frozen in my debugger) |
| 22:34 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh. Well that might actually be the right solution |
| 22:35 | < Rhamphoryncus> | From a reliability point of view, you treat them as a single program |
| 22:35 | <@McMartin> | As far as the outside world is concerned, yeah. |
| 22:35 | <@McMartin> | The other applications are essentially invisible or at least behind-the-scenes to our end users |
| 22:36 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Of course that kind of merging is more relevant on a smaller scale. Once you get bigger it becomes more useful to isolate them, and handle partial failures |
| 22:37 | | * Rhamphoryncus is really just rambling about theoretical aspects of programming :) |
| 22:37 | <@McMartin> | I go back and forth on it |
| 22:38 | <@McMartin> | Client/server models are really handy but for a local system they're also more points of failure or perf degradation |
| 22:38 | <@McMartin> | But they make scaling easier later. |
| 22:38 | <@McMartin> | It's enterprisey in all senses of the word. =/ |
| 22:39 | <@McMartin> | Unfortunately, it *did* freeze after I killed the process, so I can't just silently replace it with a new version and see if it picks up where it left off |
| 22:39 | | * McMartin does a clean restart of everything. |
| 22:39 | <@McMartin> | ... not that it would have worked anyway because the client isn't stateless |
| 22:40 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 22:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | The issue IMO is languages like erlang or.. some other I forget the name of. They try to make *everything* into an asynchronous client/server model. Except of primitive ops they arbitrarily decide not to |
| 22:44 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I ask how you decide what's asynchronous and what's a synchronous primitive.. and if you made everything asynchronous, isn't the request/response essentially the same thing as a synchronous call/return? |
| 22:45 | <@Vornicus> | Rhamphoryncus: that reminds me of Java - where everything is an object except for primitives. |
| 22:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh, java's int/Integer distinction is horrible |
| 22:47 | <@McMartin> | Looking good |
| 22:47 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, doing boxing and unboxing behind the scenes is one of the places C# is Just Better than Java. |
| 22:48 | < Rhamphoryncus> | and oh god, the lack of operator overloading! Except for builtin overloads! |
| 22:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | == on an object is identity, but on a primitive it's a value comparison! |
| 22:49 | | * Vornicus likes Python's operator overload system. |
| 22:51 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I wouldn't call python's operator overloading to be spectacular, yet it has a noticable lack of stupid |
| 22:52 | < Rhamphoryncus> | for instance, multiple dispatch introduces a ton of complexity, not to mention performance cost. Python's solution is a little ugly, but simple and effective |
| 22:52 | <@McMartin> | Python has multiple dispatch? |
| 22:53 | < Rhamphoryncus> | no |
| 22:53 | <@Vornicus> | (C++ does operator overloading pretty much as well as it can be, for a statically typed language.) |
| 22:53 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Sorry, python's solution *instead* of multiple dispatch |
| 22:55 | <@McMartin> | Aha, got it |
| 22:56 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Ahh, E, there's the language I was thinking of |
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| --- Log closed Thu Sep 24 00:00:29 2009 |