| --- Log opened Sun Sep 13 00:00:30 2009 |
| --- Day changed Sun Sep 13 2009 |
| 00:00 | <@MyCatVerbs> | AnnoDomini: I'll volunteer. How bad can it be? |
| 00:01 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZZ] |
| 00:02 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:25 | < GeekSoldier> | Man, I wish I could convince the wife to let me just install linux on that machine she uses. I just spent a hour rooting out a phantom keylogger... |
| 00:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Fire up a liveCD on it, let her use it for a bit? |
| 00:38 | < GeekSoldier> | Tried. She was resistant. |
| 00:38 | < GeekSoldier> | It could do everything she needed, but still... |
| 00:39 | < GeekSoldier> | perhaps I will try again, though. |
| 00:40 | < GeekSoldier> | ubuntu comes as a livecd, right? |
| 00:41 | <@Derakon> | Next time you have this problem, try teaching her to fix it herself instead of just doing it for her. The amount of work involved might encourage her to try a different OS. |
| 00:41 | <@Derakon> | Though be prepared for it to be OSX~ |
| 00:42 | < GeekSoldier> | I would install DOS 5 and windows 3.1 first. |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, it does. So do most other modern distros. |
| 00:42 | | * Derakon quirks an eyebrow. |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | GeekSoldier: what |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: funny story, we got a mac mini for my mom a while ago, since she wanted to try it out (and we had some mac-specific hardware to interface with anyways) |
| 00:43 | <@Derakon> | Someone really doesn't like Apple... |
| 00:43 | < GeekSoldier> | I've had my head in FreeBSD-land for a while, so not too sure what's going on in the linux world. |
| 00:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | She used it for two months before getting entirely fed up and installing Linux on it. |
| 00:43 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 00:45 | <@Derakon> | I'm curious what her complaints were. |
| 00:45 | < GeekSoldier> | Screw it, I'll try the ubuntu route again. |
| 00:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: "nothing works the way I expect, which is fine, but none of it can be changed to work the way I do expect, which is not" |
| 00:46 | <@Derakon> | Ahh. |
| 00:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | GeekSoldier: I'd suggest Ubuntu or OpenSUSE, yeah. |
| 00:49 | < GeekSoldier> | Man, I used to be quite the SuSE fanboy, back in 1999-2000. |
| 00:49 | <@Derakon> | For my part, there's very little about OSX that I've been unable to customize to my wishes. The only major thing that comes to mind right now is being unable to make my trackball's third and fourth buttons behave as "hold and move trackball to scroll" and "move back one page in the browser history", respectively. |
| 00:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | In any case, it was easier to install linux on it than to figure out whether and how to configure it appropriately. |
| 00:50 | <@Derakon> | That is of course only true if you have experienced geeks handy, I note. |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Linux is getting pretty damn easy to install these days, but you're probably right. |
| 00:56 | <@Derakon> | Every time I interact with the non-tech-savvy, I discover just how relative "easy" is. |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | OTOH, my entire family has been using linux since...2001? 2000? |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | And UNIX before that. |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. Point. |
| 00:57 | < Tarinaky> | It's a horrible point in a conversation when a geek says "You're such a geek." |
| 00:58 | | * Kazriko finds it disappointing when he deals with people who can barely use windows even with descriptions of how to do every step. |
| 00:58 | <@Kazriko> | and most of the people at work start having trouble when you add the 4th step in any given process. |
| 00:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | I guess what I'm trying to say is that, with a modern distro and assuming nothing goes wrong, installing linux is no harder than configuring an existing but unfamiliar OSX system. |
| 00:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Based on my experience installing Linux, and my experience using OSX in the labs. >.< |
| 00:59 | < Tarinaky> | I, generally, find installing Linux no harder than Windows. |
| 00:59 | < Tarinaky> | But this is because I RTFM beforehand. |
| 00:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | I find installing linux much, much easier than windows. |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | You don't need to reboot eight times to get all the drivers installed (oh yeah, hope you have the network drivers on a USB key or something); you don't need to burn a custom install CD if you have SATA drives; and the installer itself is a fully usable desktop system so you can do other things while installing and look stuff up if you need to. |
| 01:01 | < Tarinaky> | Most of my problems installing Linux come from a refusal to burn a new install CD. |
| 01:01 | < Tarinaky> | So I have to manually update the package manager >.< |
| 01:01 | <@Derakon> | I do occasionally run into situations like that outlined here: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1366183&cid=29397681 |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: I keep a DVD+RW and CD-RW around for that. |
| 01:02 | < Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: I have plenty of them. I just refuse to burn a new CD when there's no need. |
| 01:02 | <@Derakon> | They cost, what, ten cents apiece? |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 01:03 | < Tarinaky> | I only need the CD if bad things happen. |
| 01:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...why? |
| 01:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | They're reusable! |
| 01:03 | < Tarinaky> | And even if they do I know enough to not have to worry. |
| 01:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | And it takes all of five minutes to burn one. |
| 01:03 | < Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: Oh. I don't have RW discs, just single-shots. |
| 01:03 | < Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: It's 5 minutes of my life I'd rather use explaining why I haven't. |
| 01:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Heh. |
| 01:04 | < Tarinaky> | I actually made a newer CD when they made a nonback compatible change to the package manager. |
| 01:04 | < Tarinaky> | But I lost the newer CD. |
| 01:04 | < Tarinaky> | It's no biggie to just wget it though. |
| 01:05 | < Tarinaky> | And feed it into the package manager that way. |
| 01:05 | | McMartin [mcmartin@Nightstar-2b2c1a9b.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 01:06 | | McMartin [mcmartin@Nightstar-2b2c1a9b.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #code |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | What distro is this? |
| 01:07 | < Tarinaky> | Arch. |
| 01:07 | < Tarinaky> | So it's no Ubuntu anyway. |
| 01:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | Nod. |
| 01:08 | | Orthia [Orthianz@Nightstar-5a3e69f6.xnet.co.nz] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] |
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| 01:24 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [[NS] Quit: Z?] |
| 01:24 | < GeekSoldier> | Ok, I got her to at least TRY it. |
| 01:25 | < GeekSoldier> | she seemed content with the fact that firefox was right there, and everything Just Worked. |
| 01:25 | < GeekSoldier> | so, it is currently being installed. |
| 01:40 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by Reiver |
| 01:40 | | mode/#code [+o Attilla] by Reiver |
| 01:40 | | mode/#code [+o jerith] by Reiver |
| 01:40 | | mode/#code [+o McMartin] by Reiver |
| 01:40 | | mode/#code [+o TheWatcher[zZzZ]] by Reiver |
| 02:03 | | Reiver changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! | Pastebin: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/ |
| 02:08 | | AnnoDomini [farkoff@Nightstar-fb0359a2.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [[NS] Quit: beer_pump.c:335: robust error in 'traffic_cone()' - 'traffic_light' is not a budgerigar] |
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| 03:45 | | mode/#code [+o Vornicus] by Reiver |
| 04:32 | | Syloqs-AFH is now known as Kit |
| 04:47 | | Kit is now known as Syloqs-AFH |
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| 06:28 | | mode/#code [+o Vornicus] by Reiver |
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| 06:44 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
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| 09:35 | | AnnoDomini [farkoff@Nightstar-fb0359a2.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #code |
| 09:35 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by Reiver |
| 09:53 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 11:08 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-a62bd960.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Client exited] |
| 11:40 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #code |
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| 11:57 | | mode/#code [+o Attilla] by Reiver |
| 12:52 | | Orthia [Orthianz@Nightstar-5a3e69f6.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 14:12 | | * gnolam snerks. |
| 14:12 | < gnolam> | http://cheeseorfont.mogrify.org/ |
| 14:20 | | AnnoDomini [farkoff@Nightstar-fb0359a2.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 14:28 | | AnnoDomini [farkoff@Nightstar-26090653.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #code |
| 14:28 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by Reiver |
| 15:12 | | * TheWatcher eyes Reiv |
| 15:13 | <@TheWatcher> | OMG He oppened someone without having ops! Haxxor!~ |
| 15:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...no, he has ops |
| 15:13 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 21 nicks [11 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 10 normal] |
| 15:14 | <@TheWatcher> | Huh, interesting |
| 15:14 | <@jerith> | The ~ is ultrasuperops. |
| 15:14 | <@TheWatcher> | Seems that the nicklist module for irssi knows not what to do with ~ |
| 15:14 | | * TheWatcher sets about fixing that |
| 15:14 | <@jerith> | Mine knows it... |
| 15:15 | <@TheWatcher> | mebie I'm using an old version, quite likely... |
| 15:15 | <@jerith> | It sorts the nicklist by ~ & @ % +, as it should. |
| 15:16 | <@TheWatcher> | I have the latest (0.4.6 as far as I can see...). Oddness |
| 15:17 | | crem [moo@Nightstar-8ca3eea7.adsl.mgts.by] has quit [[NS] Quit: Ep0xa 1.2v] |
| 15:17 | <@jerith> | 16:17 -!- Irssi: Client: irssi 0.8.12 (20071006 0939) |
| 15:18 | <@TheWatcher> | jerith: http://fleet.starforge.co.uk/irssi.png - I don't mean irssi itself, I mean the plugin that shows the nick list on the right |
| 15:19 | <@jerith> | Ah, right. I don't think I ever got that working right for me. |
| 15:25 | < gnolam> | So has Reiver beheaded Chanserv and taken his place in this channel, or has someone just not bothered to set up aops yet? |
| 15:26 | <@jerith> | I think nobody's bothered to set up the access list yet. |
| 15:26 | | * TheWatcher eyes this code, notes that indeed nicklist.pl appears to only know about op, halfop, voice, and normal users |
| 15:26 | <@jerith> | At least, I don't have permissions to view it. |
| 15:26 | <@jerith> | TheWatcher: +q is ~, +a is &. |
| 15:27 | <@jerith> | Both of those are usually in addition to +o. |
| 15:31 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, but internally you need to do `my $channel = Irssi::active_win->{active}; my @nicks = $channel->nicks();` and each element in @nicks is a hashref containing user information, where the status set in fields such that $nicks[n] -> {<mode>}, is true if they have it (so, $nicks[n] -> {"op"} is true for someone who has ops) |
| 15:32 | <@TheWatcher> | (and, it seems, the perl plugin docs haven't been updated to reflect anything beyond op, so I'm having to dump the hash to see what is what ¬¬) |
| 15:32 | | * jerith grins. |
| 15:32 | <@jerith> | An undocumented API. How... novel. :-P |
| 15:33 | | * TheWatcher eyes the dump |
| 15:34 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, this is wonderful |
| 15:35 | <@TheWatcher> | $nicks[n] -> {"prefixes"} contains the ~, but there is no -> {"superop"} entry in the hash. |
| 15:36 | | * TheWatcher hacks in something to add one on the fly |
| 15:40 | <@jerith> | ~ is technically "founder". |
| 15:40 | <@jerith> | I think & is "protected". |
| 15:44 | | * TheWatcher nods |
| 15:54 | | Tarinaky [Tarinaky@Nightstar-f349ca6d.plus.com] has joined #code |
| 16:03 | | Thaqui [Thaqui@27B34E.D54D49.F53FA1.6A113C] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 16:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Aaah, there we go |
| 16:10 | | * TheWatcher debates what to do about & though, hms |
| 16:12 | <@jerith> | The same thing you did with ~? |
| 16:12 | | TarinakyKai [Tarinaky@Nightstar-f349ca6d.plus.com] has joined #code |
| 16:14 | | Tarinaky [Tarinaky@Nightstar-f349ca6d.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 16:14 | <@TheWatcher> | 'cept that reading the chanprotect wiki entry, +q and +a do not infer +o, and while I'd assume +q will (or can easily get) op, so it warrants placing above @ in the list, +a can apparently apply to +o,+v or +h, so... egh |
| 16:16 | <@jerith> | Most things treat it as a level above +o, which is almost invariably the case. |
| 16:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Fair enough |
| 16:17 | | TarinakyKai is now known as Tarinaky |
| 16:20 | <@TheWatcher> | There, sorted. |
| 16:25 | | crem [moo@Nightstar-8ca3eea7.adsl.mgts.by] has joined #code |
| 16:28 | <@TheWatcher> | http://fleet.starforge.co.uk/nicklist.gz if anyone uses irssi and wants a copy of it |
| 17:00 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
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| 18:21 | | mode/#code [+o Kazriko] by Reiver |
| 18:47 | | GeekSoldier [Rob@Nightstar-89125a7e.ip.cablemo.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Praise "BOB"!] |
| 19:23 | | * gnolam stabs geolocation-based language switching with a fucking ballista. |
| 19:24 | < Tarinaky> | Backstab or regular? |
| 19:24 | < Namegduf> | I always have thieves manning my ballista for this reason. |
| 19:24 | < gnolam> | Whatever causes the most pain to the goddamned morons implementing it fucking everywhere. |
| 19:27 | < gnolam> | HTTP/1.1 Accept-Language motherfucker, DO YOU SPEAK IT? |
| 19:27 | < gnolam> | Besides the fact that it's a PITA when traveling, at no point do I want your shitty machine translations. |
| 19:30 | < gnolam> | Accept-Language is there for a reason. USE IT. |
| 19:31 | < gnolam> | Just now, goddamned Paypal almost fubared a purchase for me by - mid-transaction - switching to geolocated gibberish. |
| 20:04 | | Corra[Venus] [Corra@0E1868.9CE43B.B174D5.ACF16C] has joined #code |
| 20:04 | < Corra[Venus]> | Greetings all. |
| 20:05 | <@Kazriko> | Gnolam: I've never been to gibberland, and certainly don't know the language... |
| 20:06 | < Corra[Venus]> | I was kinda curious if anyone here dealt with C enough to know how C programmers typically encode hosts (which I usually find as Strings or char*) as ints. |
| 20:06 | <@Kazriko> | encode? Isn't there a gethostbyname... lemme see... |
| 20:07 | <@Kazriko> | should return a structure that includes addresses the socket library can understand. |
| 20:08 | <@Kazriko> | of course, those may be 32 bit ints or 128bit ints or a variety of other formats. |
| 20:08 | < Corra[Venus]> | I'm not dealing with a socket right now. I'm dealing with Object serialization that uses header structs to detail decoding information. One of the members of this struct is "uint32 host". |
| 20:09 | <@Kazriko> | rather boneheaded and a non-future proof way of doing things, that. |
| 20:10 | < Corra[Venus]> | Well, with Data serialization you do need headers. But putting the host into the header seems a bit useless. |
| 20:10 | <@Kazriko> | likely it's just the x.x.x.x number encoded exactly as an ip address would be, first one is the ms 8 bits, second is the next ms 8 bits, etc. |
| 20:11 | <@Kazriko> | and that code will likely croak as soon as someone runs it on a system with ipv6... like mine. |
| 20:11 | < Corra[Venus]> | yes, probably, slightly unwieldy though. |
| 20:13 | <@Kazriko> | I believe that gethostbyaddr or gethostbyname would work for doing the conversion, just have to extract the right bit from the hostent struct. |
| 20:14 | <@Kazriko> | and a very slightly more future proof method would be to store them as IPV6 compatible addresses, basically 128bit with the first 64 bits as 0's, the next 32 as FF's, and the last 32 as the 32 bit ipv4 address. |
| 20:16 | < Corra[Venus]> | Right, I just have to do all my converting in Java, since I'm using Java to operate on the serialization. |
| 20:16 | <@Kazriko> | ahh, shrug, it's not hard at all to break the 32 bit thing into 4 bytes and add .'s... heh |
| 20:17 | < Corra[Venus]> | yeah, I have converted it into a byte[], now I just have to cast that to an int somehow.. hmm... |
| 20:23 | <@Kazriko> | heh, All my java programming was done back in 2001, I'm a bit rusty. |
| 20:23 | | * Kazriko goes back to his python libraries... |
| 20:23 | < Corra[Venus]> | well, thanks for your help Kazriko! You helped get me on the right track! |
| 20:25 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Corra[Venus]: you have an existing format using uint32? |
| 20:26 | < Corra[Venus]> | No, I don't, it is uint32 on the server side, I'm developing a client. |
| 20:26 | < Corra[Venus]> | I'm told it is uint32 in the documentation, no further specification than that |
| 20:27 | < Rhamphoryncus> | sorry, existing API |
| 20:28 | < Rhamphoryncus> | wait, server side? Is this going over RPC then? |
| 20:29 | < Corra[Venus]> | Well, it is using XDR for data serialization. |
| 20:29 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 20:29 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Anyway, you have to make a guess, then test it |
| 20:30 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I would guess they shift the first octet into the highest bits |
| 20:30 | < Corra[Venus]> | Yeah, just a lot of shooting in the dark, because I have to guess the protocol too. |
| 20:30 | < Corra[Venus]> | Since the server side recognizes it as TCP, it probably won't impact it too too much, but we'll see. |
| 20:31 | | GeekSoldier [Rob@Nightstar-89125a7e.ip.cablemo.net] has joined #code |
| 20:31 | < Rhamphoryncus> | fwiw, I prefer to think of an integer as not having a byte order. Even though bytes are stored one way in memory, the contents of the integer should be seen as perpendicular to that |
| 20:32 | <@Kazriko> | Actually, I'm thinking that you probably want to make sure that the integer is in Big Endian byte order, since most network protocols use that. Try it that way first at least... |
| 20:32 | | * Kazriko wonders if java has an equivalent to hton |
| 20:33 | < Rhamphoryncus> | you can convert *from* big endian, but the integer itself is abstract |
| 20:33 | < Corra[Venus]> | Java does use big endian |
| 20:33 | < Rhamphoryncus> | half the point of something like XDR is to treat the integer as abstract (even though it uses a specific protocol on the wire) |
| 20:33 | | * Kazriko is dealing with a network protocol now where the majority is big endian, except for one set of data fields that are little endian... x_x |
| 20:34 | < Corra[Venus]> | right. |
| 20:34 | < Corra[Venus]> | The XDR representation of this host is uint32, and my Java library encodes/decodes that as an int. |
| 20:35 | < Corra[Venus]> | ouch, I'm soryr Kaz. |
| 20:36 | < Rhamphoryncus> | encodes/decodes as an int? |
| 20:36 | <@Kazriko> | Easy to deal with in Python, just run separate struct.unpacks on them, one with "<bbb" and the other as ">bbb" |
| 20:38 | < Corra[Venus]> | I interact with the uint32 as an int. |
| 20:38 | < Corra[Venus]> | The problem is that I have the host as a String and not an int :P |
| 20:40 | < Corra[Venus]> | ok, theoretically I have it. |
| 21:24 | | Namegduf is now known as 963AAAAAQ |
| 21:50 | < gnolam> | Kazriko: I'm reminded of an epic /. post: "Legalese: Official language of the Republic of Legalia, a small and not-very-well-known island just off the coast of Marketania, where, incidentally, the majority of the population speaks Bullshit." |
| 21:54 | | ASCII [none@Nightstar-a7d2ccfd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 22:08 | <@Derakon> | Legalese is yet another manifestation of the problems we run into when we can't trust people to do the Right Thing on their own. |
| 22:31 | | * TheWatcher arghs at html and css |
| 22:32 | <@Derakon> | And HTML and CSS demonstrate to us what happens when we can't trust browsers to do the Right Thing~ |
| 22:33 | < gnolam> | TheWatcher: Is it an IE-related argh or a general argh? |
| 22:33 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-a62bd960.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Client exited] |
| 22:33 | <@TheWatcher> | Just a general argh |
| 22:35 | <@TheWatcher> | Trying to pull off an effect that would be easy with tables, except that it work work with tables... if you see what I mean. |
| 22:38 | <@Vornicus> | it "work work"? |
| 22:42 | <@TheWatcher> | 'won't work' |
| 22:42 | <@TheWatcher> | I can type, really |
| 22:42 | < gnolam> | Ah. One of those "replace an ungodly mess of nested tables with an ungodly mess of nested divs" situations? |
| 22:43 | <@TheWatcher> | Pretty much, yeah |
| 22:43 | <@TheWatcher> | Although, it may end up as an ungodly mess of nested <ul>s |
| 22:45 | < gnolam> | There is no Dana. There is only <ul>. |
| 22:46 | <@TheWatcher> | pft |
| 22:47 | < gnolam> | And yes, I had that in the comments of a site I adminned, where the picture gallery was <ul> based. :) |
| 22:56 | | * Vornicus examines the MMIX spec, figures out that it's sort of ambidextrous as far as endianness goes. |
| 23:00 | <@AnnoDomini> | I hate OO. |
| 23:00 | <@AnnoDomini> | Its handling of images is an atrocity. |
| 23:00 | <@Vornicus> | OpenOffice, or Object Orientatio... aha |
| 23:00 | <@TheWatcher> | AD: s/handling of images is// |
| 23:01 | <@Vornicus> | Yes, I can't begin to figure out what the hell the people who think OpenOffice is any good are smoking. |
| 23:01 | < Corra[Venus]> | I use OpenOffice. |
| 23:02 | <@AnnoDomini> | You're not helping its case. :p |
| 23:02 | <@TheWatcher> | vorn: very small, simple documents ¬¬ |
| 23:02 | < Corra[Venus]> | Microsoft's thing is retarded and you can't find any commands, and it supports proprietary formats. |
| 23:02 | | * Vornicus is a Serious Office Software User, and often hits limits on MS Office. |
| 23:02 | < Corra[Venus]> | That and it isn't being sold anymore. |
| 23:02 | | * Vornicus literally cannot do /anything/ in OpenOffice. |
| 23:03 | <@AnnoDomini> | I'll give you an example of the atrocity. |
| 23:03 | <@AnnoDomini> | I've just finished the first draft of my paper. It's a 71 page monstrosity with dozens of images. |
| 23:03 | < Corra[Venus]> | I can't find /anything/ in Office 2007, so there. |
| 23:03 | <@AnnoDomini> | Now, I want a table of contents. |
| 23:04 | | * Vornicus finds Office 2007 to be the best office suite. This used to be held by MS Office for OS X, but that's gone downhill in recent updates. |
| 23:04 | <@TheWatcher> | Of course, you know, you should be using LaTeX~ |
| 23:04 | <@AnnoDomini> | Unfortunately, making it update the table of contents INVALIDATES THE ENTIRE DOCUMENT AS EVERYTHING IS SHUNTED ONE PAGE FURTHER, SOMEHOW ADDING TWENTY IN THE PROCESS. |
| 23:04 | < Corra[Venus]> | lol@TheeWa |
| 23:05 | < Corra[Venus]> | lol @ TheWatcher |
| 23:06 | < Corra[Venus]> | Anno, should have made the table of contents as you went along, and it depends on how long your table of contents is. Which you should probably decide on before writing the paper. |
| 23:06 | <@Vornicus> | Um. |
| 23:06 | <@Vornicus> | YOu can't decide on the table of contents before you write the paper. |
| 23:06 | <@Vornicus> | THe table of contents depends on the locations of headers in the document. |
| 23:06 | < Corra[Venus]> | You sometimes can if you use an Outline. |
| 23:07 | < Corra[Venus]> | 1. Create headers |
| 23:07 | < Corra[Venus]> | 2. Create ToC |
| 23:07 | <@AnnoDomini> | Outline, yes. NOT every bloody header. |
| 23:07 | < Corra[Venus]> | 3. Write Paper |
| 23:07 | <@AnnoDomini> | That's the theory. |
| 23:07 | <@AnnoDomini> | In practice, it's always 3-2-1. |
| 23:07 | <@Vornicus> | Corra[Venus]: Updating the ToC needs to happen after you've written the paper. |
| 23:07 | < Corra[Venus]> | Then I would suggest filling in the headers in the outline as you go along. |
| 23:08 | <@Vornicus> | No matter whether the headers are known in advance or not! |
| 23:08 | < Corra[Venus]> | yeah, it definately needs to be checked after writing the paper, updating it will certainly bump page numbers along, but checking it is all just part of writing papers. |
| 23:08 | <@Vornicus> | But it is this very checking which blows up the formatting of the rest of the document! |
| 23:09 | | * AnnoDomini edits global styles to make this bitch conform. |
| 23:09 | <@Vornicus> | (this isn't the page numbering itself; it's the fact that the document moving in the slightest has blown up image placement in the entire system) |
| 23:09 | <@McMartin> | 15:05 <@TheWatcher> Of course, you know, you should be using LaTeX~ |
| 23:09 | <@McMartin> | LaTeX is no more a word processor than CSS is. |
| 23:10 | < Corra[Venus]> | LaTeX is good when you are displaying a lot of irregular characters and equations. |
| 23:11 | <@McMartin> | LaTeX is a typesetting language, and it's excellent at it; the only real competition it has is QuarkXPress. |
| 23:11 | <@McMartin> | Typesetting and word processing, however, are two different problems, solved by two different applications with different priorities. |
| 23:12 | <@TheWatcher> | McM: I was being vaguely facetious ;) |
| 23:12 | <@McMartin> | Too many aren't~ |
| 23:12 | < Corra[Venus]> | Well, with a large amount of formating, headers and images as I'm hearing, it would probably work well! |
| 23:13 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, the problem here is that there's a typesetting problem and Office is doing it Wrong. |
| 23:13 | <@Vornicus> | I've never managed to convince OpenOffice to place an image and keep it there. |
| 23:13 | <@McMartin> | I actually managed to do my thesis defence - complete with animations and such - with OO's !PowerPoint. |
| 23:14 | <@Vornicus> | (in addition, I've never figured out how to get a "separate sheet" chart in OOCalc; I shouldn't have to manually size a chart to get it to take up exactly one page) |
| 23:14 | <@McMartin> | (And yes, there is a place for animated diagrams, damn it.) |
| 23:14 | <@McMartin> | Oh Christ, OOCalc. |
| 23:14 | <@McMartin> | The less said about that, the better |
| 23:14 | <@McMartin> | Especially since it is also the only way to get tabular data of any kind anywhere in any OO document |
| 23:17 | <@AnnoDomini> | The only good thing about OO is the PDF converter. |
| 23:19 | < Corra[Venus]> | yes, I love that feature. |
| 23:21 | < gnolam> | McMartin: And its charts are the worst part of the Thing That Must Not Be Named. |
| 23:38 | <@TheWatcher> | argh, sod this, maybe I'll work out how the hell to get it to work tomorrow |
| 23:46 | | AnnoDomini [farkoff@Nightstar-26090653.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [[NS] Quit: Violence is not the answer. Violence is the question. The answer is "YES!"] |
| 23:48 | <@Vornicus> | Okay I must be getting to be a better programmer. |
| 23:49 | <@Vornicus> | I just wrote x86 assembler without thinking about it. I've never written x86 assembler before. |
| 23:52 | < Corra[Venus]> | you wrote x86 aseembly or an assembler for it? |
| 23:53 | <@Vornicus> | The former. |
| 23:55 | < Corra[Venus]> | I'm learning the Freescale QE series right now. |
| --- Log closed Mon Sep 14 00:00:09 2009 |