| --- Log opened Tue Sep 08 00:00:54 2009 |
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| 00:14 | < Rhamphoryncus> | jerith: eggs autosell? |
| 00:16 | <@Derakon> | He's gone to sleep. |
| 00:16 | < Rhamphoryncus> | doh :) |
| 00:16 | <@Derakon> | But my understanding is that when eggs hatch, if there's no room for the chicken, then the egg sells instead. |
| 00:16 | | * Rhamphoryncus ndos |
| 00:16 | < Rhamphoryncus> | should sell the chicken.. costs more |
| 00:17 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, but it's very easy to have no room for the chicken to spawn. |
| 00:18 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I mean the game should for you. You've spent the time on it, so you should get the result |
| 00:18 | <@Derakon> | Ah. |
| 00:18 | <@Derakon> | Well, that's as may be. |
| 00:19 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Do you know what watch towers are for? |
| 00:20 | <@gnolam> | Can you count your eggs before they hatch? |
| 00:20 | <@Derakon> | I think the watchtowers might make riflehens more effective somehow. |
| 00:20 | <@Derakon> | Or maybe they're bunkers. |
| 00:24 | < Rhamphoryncus> | And I have no idea what my income is from |
| 00:24 | <@Derakon> | Killing foxes and selling stuff. |
| 00:25 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I have spare room around my henhouses, so autosell isn't happening. It must be from killing foxes |
| 00:26 | <@AnnoDomini> | gnolam: The game does it for you. |
| 00:27 | <@AnnoDomini> | Rhamphoryncus: I expect you get eggs sold. Hens lay eggs every turn, but incubate for two. So you get N*5 cash for each hen in a henhouse/hendominium per turn. |
| 00:27 | <@AnnoDomini> | IIRC. |
| 00:27 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ahh okay |
| 00:30 | <@Derakon> | So a hendominium takes a bit over 4 turns to pay itself back. |
| 00:31 | <@Derakon> | Assuming you can fill it immediately. |
| 00:31 | < Rhamphoryncus> | It seems like, long term, you want to pack hendominiums in with no space around them |
| 00:32 | < Rhamphoryncus> | As you fill a grid like that you'll still have exposed edges, producing tons of chickens |
| 00:32 | <@AnnoDomini> | Aren't overflow chickens autokilled, rather the eggs never hatching and being sold? |
| 00:32 | <@Derakon> | No idea. |
| 00:33 | <@AnnoDomini> | That's what I read in the instructions. |
| 00:33 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I thought they were autosold. I may have been confusing with the egg autosell though |
| 00:33 | <@AnnoDomini> | Eggs autosell if there's no room. Chickens die. |
| 00:33 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hrm yeah |
| 00:33 | < Rhamphoryncus> | well there goes that theory, heh |
| 00:45 | | * Alek shiftyeyes. |
| 00:45 | < Alek> | imho, the ideal game is one that takes longer to play through (once) than to write. :P |
| 00:46 | < Alek> | WITHOUT being impossibly hard. |
| 00:47 | < Vornicus-Latens> | So I'm playing SimCity and going "I want to write a simcity-oid!" |
| 00:49 | | * Derakon drops a slab of beef on Vorn. |
| 00:50 | <@AnnoDomini> | BEEF. |
| 00:50 | | * AnnoDomini kills the beey. |
| 00:50 | <@AnnoDomini> | *beef |
| 00:50 | <@AnnoDomini> | It is now DEADBEEF. |
| 00:51 | | * Derakon writes it repeatedly to uninitialized memory. |
| --- Log closed Tue Sep 08 00:54:42 2009 |
| --- Log opened Tue Sep 08 00:59:49 2009 |
| 00:59 | | TheWatcher[zZzZ] [~chris@Nightstar-29731.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
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| 01:10 | < Rhamphoryncus> | oh! I see what the "sell alternate eggs" thing was about. Normally, if you build and load a henhouse, it will do a full load of chickens every 2 days. If you go in there once and sell half the eggs then that'll get spread to be half a load every day |
| 01:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | or.. not |
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| 02:06 | < Rhamphoryncus> | umm.. shouldn't there be foxes attacking me? |
| 02:06 | < Rhamphoryncus> | it's night.. there's night sounds.. no foxes |
| 02:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | whoa they all suddenly appeared. Took a long time |
| 02:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | day 25 now |
| 02:11 | <@AnnoDomini> | Your computer may be outdated. Click to run a free diagnostic. |
| 02:11 | | * Rhamphoryncus clicks on AnnoDomini |
| 02:12 | <@gnolam> | Your computer might be broadcasting an IP address. |
| 02:14 | <@AnnoDomini> | Click this button to ensure it is! |
| 02:14 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@Nightstar-29243.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: What can change the nature of a man?] |
| 02:23 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-1382.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Z?] |
| 02:40 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hrm hung. Sound's still playing, CPU's idle, graphics not updating |
| 02:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yay it woke up |
| 02:48 | < Rhamphoryncus> | what's that snakey thing that destroys fences, doesn't harm my chickens, and is invulnerable to bullets? |
| 02:48 | <@Derakon> | A decoy. |
| 02:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | huh |
| 02:49 | < Namegduf> | That's terrifying. |
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| 02:50 | < Namegduf> | "destroys fences, invulnerable to bullets" |
| 02:50 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Namegduf: just a nuisance at this point though |
| 02:59 | < Vornicus-Latens> | I think that's a sapper. |
| 03:11 | < Alek> | 0xDEADBEEF |
| 03:19 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh, unlimited DOES end |
| 03:23 | < Vornicus-Latens> | When? |
| 03:25 | <@Derakon> | ...oh, wait, no wonder those hens weren't doing well. I forgot to give them knives. |
| 03:33 | <@Derakon> | Awww, man! |
| 03:34 | <@Derakon> | The game crashes if you kill every fox on the first frame. :( |
| 03:34 | <@Derakon> | And I was gonna post a screenshot with the caption "Perimeter is secure, sir!" |
| 03:38 | <@Derakon> | Incidentally, it should be trivial to pave the forest in the 90-day game. Considering that my plan to completely surround the perimeter with fully-armed knifehens was almost complete on day 45, after which point my...oh, it was probably over a dozen, hendominiums would've been devoted solely to the task of clearcutting, there was plenty of time to spare. |
| 04:41 | <@Derakon> | AnnoDomini: you tried way too hard: http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/temp2/opfoxaslt2.png |
| 04:41 | <@Derakon> | 2x2 pods of knifehens are almost invincible. |
| 04:45 | | * Vornicus-Latens thinks this game needs less shouty graphics. |
| 04:48 | | * McMartin goes to either re-single-boot Zinglon, or to turn it into an unbootable mess. Time alone will tell! |
| 04:48 | < Vornicus-Latens> | godspeed |
| 04:48 | < Reivthia> | what the heck is that game? |
| 04:52 | <@Derakon> | Operation Fox Assault, a one-week game that Jerith and some of his mates made. |
| 04:55 | < Reivthia> | Huh. Any particular installation required? (Python is on the machine) |
| 04:57 | <@Derakon> | http://www.pyweek.org/e/Rinkhals/ |
| 04:57 | <@Derakon> | Oh, hey, the 2x2 pod of knifehens is not invulnerable. The foxes finally killed one after losing some 1500 of their own. |
| 05:02 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Unpack, play. |
| 05:02 | | * Derakon massacres 2795 foxes with only 12 chickens, 4 of whom were mostly idle. |
| 05:02 | <@Derakon> | And I think that's about enough of that. |
| 05:03 | <@Derakon> | Score of 45235 without breaking my hand from tons of clicking, though~ |
| 05:05 | <@McMartin> | Success! |
| 05:05 | < Reivthia> | Derakon found an unbeatable phalanx formation? |
| 05:05 | <@McMartin> | NT Bootloader reinstalled. |
| 05:05 | <@Derakon> | More or less. |
| 05:05 | <@Derakon> | A 2x2 pod of knifehens will survive damn near anything. |
| 05:06 | < Reivthia> | Said phalanx was in fact a quartet of chickens? |
| 05:06 | <@McMartin> | zomg hot ch1xx0rz lol? |
| 05:06 | < Reivthia> | Surely this would have been noticed in testing~ |
| 05:06 | <@Derakon> | I really only needed the one pod, I suspect, but I felt like setting up a couple of egg factories in the middle of the forest. |
| 05:06 | <@Derakon> | Reiv: they had all of a week to get the game made. |
| 05:06 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, uh, even Sable took like three. |
| 05:07 | <@Derakon> | Though to be fair, you made Sable on your own, yes? |
| 05:07 | < Reivthia> | Okay, point~ |
| 05:07 | <@McMartin> | Yes. |
| 05:07 | <@McMartin> | Well, it was for a class |
| 05:07 | <@McMartin> | But I was working solo, yes. |
| 05:08 | <@Derakon> | Anyway, I lost three chickens to foxes in that game, and two of them were because I forgot that leaving a chicken sitting outside the henhouse without equipment is a bit silly. |
| 05:08 | <@Derakon> | The third, I think would've survived if I'd been more proactive about re-equipping, but I was more interested in saving clicks. |
| 05:15 | < Reivthia> | The game is click-heavy then? |
| 05:15 | <@Derakon> | Oh, yes. |
| 05:32 | | * McMartin looks at various windows utilities available to him. |
| 05:32 | <@McMartin> | Nice. |
| 05:33 | <@McMartin> | There's a standard XP util that converts FAT32 partitions into NTFS ones preserving data. |
| 05:39 | < Reivthia> | Derakon: DId you bother with kevlar? |
| 05:40 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, though I haven't done any kind of formal study as to its effectiveness compared to helmets or nudity. |
| 05:40 | <@McMartin> | Linux uninstall: COMPLETE |
| 05:40 | <@McMartin> | Additional free space for Stuff: 125GB. |
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| 06:47 | <@jerith> | Derakon: There was a late change that made foxes prefer outdoor chickens. I think that unbalanced the game a lot. |
| 06:47 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, I suspect so. You really don't need to set up any kind of defensive perimeter so long as there are armed chickens vaguely near your henhouses. |
| 07:13 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK} |
| 07:13 | | Derakon[AFK} is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 07:22 | < Reivthia> | Ah! |
| 07:22 | < Reivthia> | Derakon: It appears that helmets and kevlar give your chickens an added hit point, or some such. |
| 07:26 | < Reivthia> | jerith: A useful rule would have been to make the foxes head towards guard chickens, but if they happened to land on a henhouse or unarmed one... |
| 07:27 | < Rhamphoryncus> | My impression is that it just takes off the helmet, then the kevlar, then kills the chicken |
| 07:28 | <@jerith> | A helmet adds one point, kvlar adds two. |
| 07:29 | < Reivthia> | Rham: I've seen chickens lose kevlar, /then/ the helmet |
| 07:29 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Oh, they actually have hitpoints? Do they heal between days then? And what causes them to lose gear? |
| 07:29 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Reivthia: I've had that too, but rarely |
| 07:29 | <@jerith> | So a chicken with both takes 4 attacks to kill. |
| 07:30 | <@jerith> | Equipment goes away when it runs out of hitpoints. |
| 07:32 | < Reivthia> | Other minor improvement: A 'Sell all helpless chickens' button. |
| 07:32 | < Reivthia> | Would reduce my clickmonstering vastly~ |
| 07:33 | <@jerith> | Reivthia: You're about the fourth or fifth person to request that feature. :-) |
| 07:33 | <@jerith> | (I was the first.) |
| 07:35 | | * Reivthia snickers |
| 07:36 | < Rhamphoryncus> | That 2x2 pod is disturbing |
| 07:37 | < Rhamphoryncus> | jerith: feature request: automatically switch to an offset breeding schedule. IOW, a henhouse should only do 3/day and a hendemonium should only do 6/day |
| 07:37 | < Reivthia> | Meh |
| 07:38 | < Reivthia> | ... whoa |
| 07:38 | < Reivthia> | I /lost chickens/ |
| 07:38 | < Reivthia> | Huh. Guess the fox AI isn't that stupid afterall. |
| 07:38 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 07:39 | <@jerith> | No, it /reakky is/. |
| 07:39 | <@jerith> | *relly |
| 07:39 | <@jerith> | **really |
| 07:39 | <@jerith> | Gah! |
| 07:39 | <@jerith> | Reivthia: Sometimes it gets lucky, though. |
| 07:40 | < Rhamphoryncus> | -10 groats o.O |
| 07:41 | <@jerith> | ... how'd you manage that? |
| 07:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | swapped chicken in a watchtower from knives to rifles |
| 07:42 | <@jerith> | Oh, right. That was fixed post-upload. |
| 07:43 | <@jerith> | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
| 07:43 | <@jerith> | r362 | neil | 2009-09-07 13:34:06 +0200 (Mon, 07 Sep 2009) | 1 line |
| 07:43 | <@jerith> | Don't go into debt when buying equipment in buildings |
| 07:43 | <@jerith> | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
| 07:43 | <@jerith> | r361 | neil | 2009-09-07 13:20:52 +0200 (Mon, 07 Sep 2009) | 1 line |
| 07:43 | <@jerith> | Add bounds checking to animation drawing loop |
| 07:44 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 07:44 | <@jerith> | The bug where one kills a chicken off-board was also fixed. |
| 07:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Is there a point to watch towers? Range maybe? |
| 07:50 | < Rhamphoryncus> | and if I go and sell an egg in a henhouse/hendominium, is it supposed to take multiple clicks? |
| 07:52 | <@jerith> | Watchtowers increase range and visibility. |
| 07:52 | < Rhamphoryncus> | visibility? |
| 07:52 | <@jerith> | Guns only, though. |
| 07:52 | <@jerith> | You can only shoot foxes you can see. |
| 07:53 | < Reivthia> | Oh. Huh. Never used a watchtower. |
| 07:53 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hmm I see |
| 07:53 | <@jerith> | (Not a lin-of-sight thing -- a roll based on distance and fox stealth.) |
| 07:53 | < Reivthia> | I find the 4-knife phalanx fairly impenetrable |
| 07:53 | <@jerith> | Ninja foxes are stealthier, which is why they're harder to kill. |
| 07:54 | < Rhamphoryncus> | do trees hide them? |
| 07:54 | <@jerith> | Not yet. |
| 07:55 | < Reivthia> | Interesting. |
| 07:55 | < Reivthia> | AKA: This game has a lot of potential, it just needs a little more tweakin'? |
| 07:55 | < Reivthia> | You also need Brute Foxes, which are harder to kill. |
| 07:55 | < Reivthia> | To fix the knife phalanxes ;) |
| 07:55 | <@jerith> | That's my idea, at least. |
| 07:56 | < Reivthia> | An egg automanager would be nice too, if you actually plan to give this serious strategy. |
| 07:56 | <@jerith> | I plan to address knife phalanxes by making knives a bit less effective and having foxes prefer unarmed chickens. |
| 07:56 | < Reivthia> | "How many squares around my hen house? Okay, sell all eggs but that." (Conflicts = tough, probably.) |
| 07:56 | < Reivthia> | That'd work. |
| 07:57 | <@jerith> | Oh, Rhamphoryncus: Forgot to answer about eggs. |
| 07:57 | <@jerith> | Chickens lay multiple eggs. One will hatch, the rest autosell. |
| 07:57 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Okay, so I'm not getting extra cash by forcing them to sell sooner? |
| 07:58 | <@jerith> | We didn't get around to updating the visuals after we changes that. |
| 07:58 | <@jerith> | You are getting extra cash if you're selling a chicken's last egg. |
| 07:59 | <@jerith> | Also, chickens without eggs will lay more. You can get twice as many eggs if you're selling them on day one rather than waiting until day two. |
| 08:01 | | * Rhamphoryncus has flanked his phalanx with watch towers. That much more effective >.> |
| 08:06 | | * Reivthia is finding two dozen knifechickens in six phalanxes has rendered his forces immune to assault anyway. |
| 08:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Reivthia: are you sure you need more than 4 knifechickens? |
| 08:09 | <@jerith> | I shall go to work now and read the scrool later. |
| 08:09 | <@jerith> | Thanks for all the comments and suggestions so far, guys. |
| 08:09 | < Rhamphoryncus> | thanks for the game :) |
| 08:10 | < Reivthia> | Rham: I did, yes |
| 08:10 | < Reivthia> | If you place them in the center of the chicken houses, the foxes /did/ actually attack them |
| 08:11 | < Reivthia> | I've got six (Probably overkill) purely so I can have ... well, okay, I've nearly paved the whole map with chicken houses~ |
| 08:11 | <@jerith> | Feel free to dig around in the code if you want -- there are some ugly corners, but not as many as I had feared a week of development would cause. |
| 08:11 | < Reivthia> | Four occasionally meant a corner hut got attacked. |
| 08:11 | < Reivthia> | Jerith: UI improvement: Please let us click&drag. |
| 08:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | My huts get ignored |
| 08:12 | < Reivthia> | I want to be able to not have to click every single chicken/tree seperately when I have five thousand cash :P |
| 08:12 | < Reivthia> | Rham: I thought mine were too, until they got occasionally pounced. |
| 08:12 | < Reivthia> | Very, very occasionally |
| 08:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | The 4 knifechickens lost a couple helmets, but nothing since I added the two watchtowers |
| 08:12 | < Reivthia> | But it happened! I was as shocked as you~ |
| 08:13 | < Rhamphoryncus> | lol and just lost 5 |
| 08:13 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Must have a visibility limit of around 8-10 |
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| 08:15 | < Reivthia> | Yeah, seems that way. |
| 08:15 | < Reivthia> | Hence why I ended up just putting a perimeter of 4birds around things. |
| 08:16 | < Reivthia> | (Note: I'm saying I have 24 chickens on guard duty. I have 600 in total~) |
| 08:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I've ended up with 48 on guard duty, in 4 clusters. That's mostly to match the hendominium's footprint though |
| 08:53 | < Rhamphoryncus> | 21 spots left.. day 33, putting down 4/day |
| 08:53 | < Reivthia> | Heh. Paving for real, eh? |
| 08:54 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Probably take 4 days at most |
| 08:54 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I think I should stop ;) |
| 08:54 | < Rhamphoryncus> | it'd be SOOOO much easier if I could select them in groups |
| 08:58 | < Reivthia> | Yeah, I noticed that too. |
| 08:58 | < Reivthia> | Ditto tree clearing. |
| 09:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Tree clearing doesn't bother me so much |
| 09:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | doh, can't count. 23 spots left |
| 09:08 | < Rhamphoryncus> | 45 hendominiums, each producing 6 hens/day. 270 clicks to sell them all, but more to sell them quickly |
| 09:10 | < Reivthia> | Only 6? |
| 09:11 | < Reivthia> | I had mine putting out 8. |
| 09:13 | < Rhamphoryncus> | You mean 8 every 2 days |
| 09:13 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Or 8 and 4 |
| 09:14 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Amusingly, 810 chickens, but only 459 foxes killed. I've out-bred them! |
| 09:14 | < Reivthia> | A point, I do confess. |
| 09:37 | <@jerith> | All comments so far pasted (lightly edited) into TODO in the repo for our further consideration. |
| 09:37 | <@jerith> | Thanks muchly, people. |
| 09:38 | <@jerith> | Also, you don't have to stop -- anything that can lead to a game improvement is appreciated. |
| 09:39 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@Nightstar-29243.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #Code |
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| 09:39 | <@jerith> | 10:39 <~Hodgestar> The wall of chickens with knifes and armour with the chickens with rifles behind is quite a nice tactic. |
| 09:40 | <@jerith> | 10:39 <~Hodgestar> It's awesome that the game is complex enough to have solutions its designers didn't expect. |
| 09:40 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 09:40 | <@jerith> | (Comments on your comments -- that's referring to your screenshot, AnnoDomini.) |
| 09:40 | | * jerith stops scraping overnight IRC logs for Operation Fox Assault tester comments and gets back to work. |
| 09:41 | < Reivthia> | Of more concern is getting the UI to be less painfully clicky. |
| 09:50 | | * AnnoDomini smiles. |
| 09:53 | <@jerith> | Reivthia: Declickifying the UI is the most popular comment. :-) |
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| 12:18 | | * TheWatcher eyes this code |
| 12:19 | <@TheWatcher> | did I write this shit? WTF, eugh |
| 12:50 | | * TheWatcher vaguely stabs each and every web browser developer on the planet until they get their fucking act together and come up with a way to include flash and applets that doesn't fuck up somewhere |
| 12:50 | < Namegduf> | They have! |
| 12:50 | < Namegduf> | ...each one, their own way! |
| 12:50 | <@TheWatcher> | Har |
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| 13:40 | | * TheWatcher eyes |
| 13:40 | <@TheWatcher> | I'd forgotten just how complicated this course processor code had become, blegh |
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| 16:23 | <@Derakon[work]> | from Priithon import usefulX as Y |
| 16:23 | <@Derakon[work]> | ;.; |
| 16:26 | | * gnolam can has bloom filters. |
| 16:26 | <@gnolam> | Now, for the bump mapping... |
| 16:30 | <@gnolam> | And brains. Juicy, delicious human brains. |
| 16:30 | <@Consul> | Anyone interesting in helping me develop a neural net to design a 32-pole IIR filter based on an recorded impulse response? ;-) |
| 16:31 | <@Consul> | interested* |
| 16:31 | | * Consul is being silly, though this is a future project. |
| 16:47 | | * Consul listens to old Chas'n'Dave songs. :-) |
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| 16:51 | | * gnolam arrrrrrrghs at his lecturer's code. |
| 16:51 | <@Consul> | Heh, at least your profs aren't all on strike. |
| 16:52 | <@Consul> | though to be honest, I'm on their side, but it is leaving me with a bad first impression of my new uni. |
| 16:52 | | * Derakon[work] discovers he needs to recompile a SWIG interface module, tries to figure out what the source module was. |
| 16:54 | <@Consul> | So I'll spend part of today seeing if I can figure out how to vary the resonance of a low-pass filter based on the RMS of the input. |
| 16:55 | <@gnolam> | He's a good lecturer and a nice guy and all that, but by Eris, his code is almost The Daily WTF-worthy. |
| 17:04 | <@Consul> | Eww, I really don't want to recalculate the entire filter sample by sample. |
| 17:07 | <@Consul> | But then again, this is only a test of a concept, so I guess it doesn't matter if it sucks up CPU. |
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| 18:06 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 18:21 | < Rhamphoryncus> | jerith: left it running overnight. Now at over 2 gigs of ram used |
| 18:48 | <@Derakon[work]> | Yay memory leaks! |
| 18:49 | <@Derakon[work]> | Betcha it's the GUI system you used. |
| 19:15 | <@Derakon[work]> | Y'know, the last thing you expect when you join a group and they say "Yeah, it's mostly written in Python" is to have to deal with gobs of C/C++ code. |
| 19:18 | < Tarinaky> | Hey. I've been having a think about what I want to do after I leave Uni... I like programming but I'm not sure if I have a problem or not because of the fact I'm doing Physics and not CompSci. |
| 19:23 | < Tarinaky> | I'm just not really sure how I'd go about falling into a programming job even if it was a good idea. >.< |
| 19:26 | <@Derakon[work]> | Generally you get jobs by applying for them. :) |
| 19:26 | <@Derakon[work]> | Which means hitting up job boards. |
| 19:26 | <@Derakon[work]> | I don't know that much about interdisciplinary physics/compsci stuff though. |
| 19:27 | < Tarinaky> | I've never had a job in my life so I don't really know what to expect >.< |
| 19:29 | <@Derakon[work]> | In terms of jobs or interviews or what? |
| 19:29 | < Tarinaky> | I think I enjoy low-level programming more than any other sort. Although I've not really had much opportunity to really practise and do stuff with that. Would there be any specific branches that focused on that? Or something like that. |
| 19:29 | <@Derakon[work]> | Define "low-level"? |
| 19:30 | < Tarinaky> | Well. When I did A2 Electronics in Sixth-Form part of the course involved programming a fictitious microprocessor in Octal. |
| 19:30 | <@Derakon[work]> | Ahh. |
| 19:30 | <@Derakon[work]> | So, like assembly? |
| 19:31 | < Tarinaky> | I also derive more pleasure than is probably warrented manipulating byte streams in C/C++ |
| 19:31 | < Tarinaky> | Yeah. |
| 19:31 | <@Derakon[work]> | That's a pretty specialized area these days. Not to say that there aren't jobs in it, but they'll be rare. |
| 19:32 | <@Derakon[work]> | You majored in physics? |
| 19:32 | < Tarinaky> | I've just completed my first year of Physics. Hopefully I'll be able to move on to my second year if my exams resits are passes. |
| 19:33 | < Tarinaky> | (British Unis are different to American ones. You don't pick-and-mix courses between faculties >.<) |
| 19:34 | <@Derakon[work]> | You would probably have better luck talking to a Brit, then. :\ |
| 19:35 | < Tarinaky> | Probably. But I don't really have anyone to talk to there that I know of >.< |
| 19:36 | <@Derakon[work]> | TW's a Brit, last I checked. |
| 19:36 | < Tarinaky> | As I understand it game programming has lots of opportunity for low-level stuffage but I also heard that it was a bad gig :s |
| 19:37 | <@Derakon[work]> | Game programming has a couple of big issues. |
| 19:37 | <@Derakon[work]> | First, everyone and his brother wants to be in the gaming industry, so the competition is ridiculous. |
| 19:37 | < Tarinaky> | Yeah. |
| 19:37 | <@Derakon[work]> | Second, game companies tend to overwork their employees to an unhealthy degree. |
| 19:38 | < Tarinaky> | Yeah. That's what I heard. One thing that I did think about was that hardware companies need to develop drivers and stuff like that. |
| 19:39 | <@Derakon[work]> | I think that'd be an engineering job. Might be CS. Probably won't be physics. |
| 19:39 | < Tarinaky> | And figured that might be close to what I wanted. But I don't really know much about that since I don't know anyone who's in that gig and I figure it must be fairly small. |
| 19:40 | < Tarinaky> | Well. I figured whatever I'm doing it won't be physics >.< I just did it because it's seen as a good 'You must be smart' degree. |
| 19:40 | <@Derakon[work]> | ...do you have any interest in physics? |
| 19:40 | <@Derakon[work]> | Because if you don't, IMO you should switch majors to something you do find interesting. |
| 19:41 | < Tarinaky> | And I wanted a degree in something and didn't really want to have to be taught how to implement linked lists when I can just read a book on it >.< |
| 19:41 | < AnnoDomini> | I used to love CS. Then I went to study it, and now I'm a nearly a luddite. |
| 19:42 | < Tarinaky> | I enjoy teaching myself computerscience stuff but I hate being -taught- it. >.< |
| 19:42 | <@Derakon[work]> | Dunno what to tell you there, and I really need to eat lunch. But good luck, whatever you do. |
| 19:42 | <@Derakon[work]> | Be back later. |
| 19:43 | < Tarinaky> | I don't -hate- physics and I do kind of enjoy it when I put the effort in but I just don't see a job in it >.< |
| 19:49 | | * AnnoDomini is exaggerating, of course. I do use technology, and upgrade when I find the new thing to be a significant improvement. It's just that my standards are way higher than the normal person. |
| 19:51 | < Tarinaky> | Sadly I've never actually learned intel assembly. I have C/C++, a little python (I liked bits of it but the whole whitespace matters thing ends up annoying me >.<) and if it counts bash under my belt though. |
| 19:52 | < AnnoDomini> | Then learn it. It's easy, if you have other assembly experience. |
| 19:53 | < Tarinaky> | Probably. I'm not aware of any good books on it though. Sadly I fail at google >.< |
| 19:53 | < Tarinaky> | A friend promised to lend me a book of his on reverse engineering he said was good though. |
| 19:54 | < Tarinaky> | And I figured there'd be a section in there of relevance since it discusses dis-assembly. |
| 20:01 | <@Derakon[work]> | Goddammit, the previous dev left his home directory all over the makefile. |
| 20:01 | <@Derakon[work]> | $(CURDIR), fucker! |
| 20:02 | < Tarinaky> | >.< ouch. Not even /home/$USER? |
| 20:02 | <@Derakon[work]> | Nope. |
| 20:02 | <@Derakon[work]> | Sometimes it's /jws30/hisusername, too. |
| 20:04 | < Tarinaky> | On an unrelated note to what I was discussing earlier. What's a good tool for automatically generating makefiles? So far I've always been writing them myself which probably isn't really the way to go. |
| 21:01 | <@gnolam> | Sweet. View coordinate bumpmapping working. |
| 21:02 | <@gnolam> | Tarinaky: AFAIK, there isn't one. |
| 21:02 | < Tarinaky> | A lot of program sources come with ./configure scripts. I was wondering if there was a utility that generated those. |
| 21:08 | <@Derakon[work]> | TMK the configure scripts modify existing Makefiles; they don't make them out of whole cloth. |
| 21:11 | < Tarinaky> | Well. Nothing's going to make them out of nothing >.< there's going to be -some- sort of specification file. |
| 21:11 | < Tarinaky> | But I figured I needed some sort of tool to make them portable. |
| 21:14 | | * gnolam realizes he really likes shader effects programming. |
| 21:14 | <@gnolam> | It's so much... instant gratification. |
| 21:14 | <@gnolam> | You don't even have to compile between changes. :) |
| 21:27 | <@Derakon[work]> | That's part of why I like Python. |
| 21:28 | <@Derakon[work]> | Remind me...the -I flag is for included .o files, and the -L flag is for included .h files, right? |
| 21:28 | <@Derakon[work]> | ...no, I got that backwards. |
| 21:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | -I is for the header search path. |
| 21:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | -L is for the library search path, which is .a and .so, not .o. |
| 21:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | .o files you list on the command line at link time. |
| 21:44 | <@Derakon[work]> | Right. |
| 21:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: ./configure is generally created by the autoconf utility, which is cthonian. |
| 21:46 | < Tarinaky> | cthonian? |
| 21:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | An ancient and terrible creature from deep beneath the earth. |
| 21:47 | | Orthia [~Orthianz@Nightstar-21262.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #Code |
| 21:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Autoconf is a hideous, poorly-documented mess that mostly works, most of the time. |
| 21:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Re: x86 assembly: if you're into low level stuff it can be useful, but seriously, fuck CISC instruction sets in the eye |
| 21:50 | | * TheWatcher notes that TF is actually being quite generous in his description of autoconf |
| 21:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | On the other hand, since you like machine code, maybe you'll enjoy it~ |
| 21:51 | <@McMartin> | The info-docs for Makefile include a number of spells that let you make reasonably convenient makefiles by having macros that turn lists of products into individual dependencies. |
| 21:51 | <@TheWatcher> | (although an accurate description would probably end up summoning half a dozen Nameless Horrors From Beyond as an unavoidable side effecr) |
| 21:51 | <@McMartin> | A couple of rules and a decent set of lists, combined with makedepend, will generally leave you in much better stead |
| 21:54 | < Tarinaky> | So the channel is recommending makedepend? |
| 21:54 | <@Derakon[work]> | I generally prefer to resolve my dependencies dynamically~ |
| 21:54 | <@Derakon[work]> | (Whee interpreted code!) |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | I don't know if the channel is |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | *I* am, because I've used it and it's not too horrible |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | But it doesn't make makefiles |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | It means "make depend" can be made to mostly work, which removes most of the tedium from Makefiles. |
| 21:56 | | * Derakon[work] mutters, tries to figure out what this srfftw thing is that the code he's working on wants, and where he can find it. |
| 21:56 | <@Derakon[work]> | Seeing as the FFTW library I built and installed doesn't seem to supply it. |
| 21:57 | <@McMartin> | Surfing ftw? |
| 21:58 | <@Derakon[work]> | It's some fast Fourier transform library. |
| 21:58 | <@Derakon[work]> | Except the version my illustrious predecessor was using apparently had more bits than the version I have. |
| 21:58 | | * gnolam snerks. |
| 21:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | makedepend is kind of dependent on C/++-like dependencies, though, isn't it? |
| 21:58 | <@gnolam> | Apparently, the commercial TLD for the Cook Islands is... .co.ck |
| 21:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | And it doesn't handle checking for prerequisite libraries or environmental configuration, which is what configure typically handles |
| 22:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | So unless I'm completely wrong about what makedepend does, it doesn't seem that you can recommend one over the other because they do totally different things |
| 22:01 | <@McMartin> | The problem is "I need a build system and I don't want to mess with it too much" |
| 22:02 | <@McMartin> | makedepend has, in some sense, stricter prereqs |
| 22:02 | <@McMartin> | But yes, ./configure is a shell script, makedepend is used to edit its own Makefile to do the scutwork, if you're using a C/C++-like language. |
| 22:03 | <@McMartin> | Now that pkg-config exists, hand-writing your own configure script is quite a bit easier. |
| 22:04 | <@Derakon[work]> | Argh, I hate it when I do something like "make 2>&1 > /tmp/t.txt" and I still get spew out to the console. |
| 22:05 | <@Derakon[work]> | Is there any way to say "Take all output until control returns to the command prompt and stuff it into this stream"? |
| 22:05 | < Tarinaky> | &> isn't it? |
| 22:05 | <@Derakon[work]> | My understand is that it should be, since there's only two output streams and I'm redirecting one to the other and the other to a file, but it's clearly not working. |
| 22:06 | < Tarinaky> | command &> target should redirect stderr and stdout to the same source. |
| 22:06 | <@Derakon[work]> | ...oh, hunh. That worked. |
| 22:06 | <@Derakon[work]> | Thanks. |
| 22:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, ordering is important; 2>&1 > foo is not the same as > foo 2>&1 |
| 22:07 | <@Derakon[work]> | What does the latter do, discard STDERR? |
| 22:07 | <@McMartin> | Puts STDERR to stdout, viz. the console. |
| 22:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | The former is "stderr to the terminal, stdout to foo" |
| 22:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | the latter is "stderr and stdout to foo" |
| 22:08 | <@Derakon[work]> | I thought &1 was stdout? |
| 22:08 | <@McMartin> | Yes |
| 22:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. It is. |
| 22:08 | <@McMartin> | So in one, you change stdout before reassigning stderr to it |
| 22:08 | <@McMartin> | In the former you don't |
| 22:09 | <@Derakon[work]> | Clearly stream assignment doesn't work the way I expect it to. |
| 22:09 | <@Derakon[work]> | I'll muck with that later, though. |
| 22:10 | | * AnnoDomini stumbles upon a block in a diagram called "DIGITAL DECIMATOR". |
| 22:10 | < Tarinaky> | Nice. Does it divide by 10? |
| 22:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | think of it as FILE* reassignment; the former is 'stderr = stdout; stdout = fopen("foo")' |
| 22:11 | < AnnoDomini> | Tarinaky: That's what I expect, given its name. |
| 22:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | And the latter is 'stdout = fopen("foo"); stderr = stdout' |
| 22:13 | <@gnolam> | AnnoDomini: I might have to steal that name for an industrial music project. |
| 22:13 | <@gnolam> | Or possibly EBM. |
| 22:15 | <@Derakon[work]> | TF: okay, and I've been thinking of it as being "*stderr = stdout; *stdout = fopen("foo")" |
| 22:15 | <@Derakon[work]> | I.e. with references. |
| 22:15 | | * Derakon[work] takes a moment to swear about projects that try to load dependencies that no longer exist. |
| 22:15 | <@Derakon[work]> | I don't know how I'm going to get this thing built now. |
| 22:15 | <@TheWatcher> | ... eugh |
| 22:16 | <@gnolam> | Still Sebastien's work? |
| 22:16 | <@Derakon[work]> | Of course. |
| 22:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Who was this again? |
| 22:16 | <@TheWatcher> | I want to make sur eI never have to deal with him~ |
| 22:16 | <@Derakon[work]> | Heh. |
| 22:16 | <@Derakon[work]> | He's in Germany these days. |
| 22:16 | <@Derakon[work]> | Sebastian Haase (I actually had his first name misspelled for awhile there) |
| 22:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Heh, that doesn't make much difference in my line of work, could be on mars for all I care really ¬¬ |
| 22:26 | <@McMartin> | That has noticable IM lag~ |
| 22:27 | | * McMartin eyes his coworkers. |
| 22:27 | <@McMartin> | So, permission failure because some home directory's subdir had ended up being owned by root 644. |
| 22:27 | <@McMartin> | Conclusion? |
| 22:27 | <@McMartin> | lolchpwnt |
| 22:28 | <@Derakon[work]> | I forget, can you assign things to be owned by root without being root yourself? |
| 22:28 | <@McMartin> | Only some things. |
| 22:28 | <@McMartin> | However, installers generally run as root, so. |
| 22:29 | | * TheWatcher eyes |
| 22:29 | <@McMartin> | "Don't we already chown that directory?" "Yes." "Do we chown it hard enough?" |
| 22:30 | <@Derakon[work]> | Hrm. Guess: dfftw == double-precision fast Fourier transform. Therefore, sfftw == single-precision of same. |
| 22:30 | <@Derakon[work]> | So what the hell is srfftw? |
| 22:30 | <@Derakon[work]> | And where the fuck are the header files? |
| 22:30 | <@TheWatcher> | "some things"? I was always under the impression that, at least with relatively recent versions of chown, you couldn't change the owner to someone else unless you were root? |
| 22:31 | <@McMartin> | TW: I was under the impression that you could still give away non-executables. |
| 22:32 | <@TheWatcher> | hm |
| 22:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon[work]: reentrant? That's usually a _r suffix, though |
| 22:32 | <@TheWatcher> | Can't here *shrug* Mebbie I have a more restrictive version of chown set up |
| 22:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Can't here either. |
| 22:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | chown: changing ownership of 'foo': operation not permitted |
| 22:34 | | * TheWatcher nods, shrugs |
| 22:34 | <@Derakon[work]> | ...I think I just got this package to build. |
| 22:34 | <@TheWatcher> | le gasp! |
| 22:34 | <@Derakon[work]> | Through the simple expedient of removing files that generated errors~ |
| 22:34 | <@Derakon[work]> | Hope I didn't need them! |
| 22:35 | <@McMartin> | It may be that I'm too used to building stuff as non-admin and then testing the scripts with something that can sudo~ |
| 22:36 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@Nightstar-28943.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: There is strength not only in *knowing* the self, but *knowing* how to bring it forth in others.] |
| 22:38 | <@Derakon[work]> | ...now, why was I trying to build this again? |
| 22:39 | <@TheWatcher> | Masochism? |
| 22:58 | | Orthia [~Orthianz@Nightstar-21262.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 23:15 | | * gnolam stabs OS X, or whatever OS X uses to make zip files. |
| 23:16 | <@Derakon[work]> | TMK OSX doesn't have a builtin program for making .zips. |
| 23:17 | <@McMartin> | which zip |
| 23:17 | <@Derakon[work]> | It makes .sit, .gzip, and .bz2 instead. |
| 23:17 | <@McMartin> | /usr/bin/zip |
| 23:17 | <@Derakon[work]> | ...oh, right then. |
| 23:17 | <@gnolam> | It craps hidden files all over the place, in any case. Extremely annoying. |
| 23:17 | <@McMartin> | It's more that OS X zip isn't OS X-aware. |
| 23:18 | <@Derakon[work]> | Yeah, it's OSX that's crapping hidden files all over the place. |
| 23:18 | <@McMartin> | tar has similar problems. |
| 23:18 | <@Derakon[work]> | Basically, any time you open a directory in the file viewer, the OS creates a hidden .DS_Store file in that directory. |
| 23:18 | <@Derakon[work]> | IIRC it stores location/size information for the window. |
| 23:19 | <@McMartin> | There's also resource-fork wackiness and other associations, but as those are fs-level I believe that zip/tar/etc skip them the same way they skip NTFS file channels. |
| 23:19 | <@Derakon[work]> | I'm pretty certain they do, yeah. |
| 23:19 | <@Derakon[work]> | Since I seem to recall some issues with losing resource forks when I copied files from OS9 to OSX. |
| 23:19 | <@McMartin> | The thing that's infuriating about this is that ls and bash *are* OS X aware and will happily claim to their dying breath if you try to refer to the files Finder makes. |
| 23:20 | <@McMartin> | Individual files also get .filename_properties files made. |
| 23:21 | <@Derakon[work]> | I'm not familiar with that one. |
| 23:21 | <@McMartin> | I think they're the Finder thumbnails |
| 23:21 | <@McMartin> | They show up on my USB drives whenever I mount them on Windows after mounting them on Mac. |
| 23:21 | | Orthia [~Orthianz@Nightstar-7170.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #Code |
| 23:45 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:47 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 23:55 | | Syloq [Syloq@NetAdmin.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 23:55 | <@Derakon[work]> | Blah...I'm beginning to despair of getting these programs running on something other than their "native" platform. :( |
| 23:56 | | Syloq is now known as Syloqs-AFH |
| --- Log closed Wed Sep 09 00:00:18 2009 |